EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have been taking notes from some old dog men, and studying some of there line bred curs papers. It is VERY tight, like dad to daughter, and granddaughter, then those pups to another litters sibling etc. They say it has been done for yrs with horses, cows, and pigs etc. and that dogs are no different.
My first thought was this is what causes "pitbull or rottweiler" attacks, or just makes them crazy. But there big curs are all very intellegent and produce high % hard hunting hog dogs or great cow dogs etc.
My regular hunting buddies dont want to breed dad to daughter or cross up real tight...What is the opinion of the FORUM on this subject??[/b]

 in my eyes line breeding is sometimes a good thing when done right  father  - daughter - grandaughter and great granddaughter and the same with mother -- son and so on

 they say dont go more than 3 lines back  i have done three  steps line breeding with my lines and had great results and plan on doing it again but you need to be set up where you can hold on to a  few gyps for several years  so as to cull out  certain traits and workablity
that your looking for
 
 some folks will inbreed  where  you cross brother to sister and cousins  but if theres a gap in the breeding for a couple of breedings i am of the belief that   it shouldnt hurt   like   where    theres a couple out crosses
  
 thats a lil bit of my ideals on the subject and what i go by
 Dexter
 

x 2

Dexter,

I line breed my hounds, but from the statement above that is a case of inbreeding.  I think most out there don't truely know the difference in the two. 

As for the original question, if you choose to closely linebreed, you had better make for darn sure what you start with is exactly what you hope to reproduce.  As, close linebreeding multiplies both the positives and negatives of said line.  It is not uncommon to see traits of ancestors 3 generations back surface if continued line breeding occurs.  The foundation of your breeding program needs to be based on for sure real deal dogs if you elect to breed tightly. JMO!!!!!!!!

Personally, the aunt x nephew or uncle x neice crosses seem to consistantly produce better situations from my dealings with dogs.  That being said, I have seen some dandies that were half brother x half sister breedings.  You can bank, that the negative traits will surface though if this is continued, just as the positives will.  It is not something that can be seen in 1-2 years of breeding dogs.  Time tells all.  None of this is directed at an individual, just stating what my little mind has to offer.  Personally, the father x daughter or mother x son breedings that I have seen first hand, did nothing but take time away from the overall line.  It was basically a bust the very few times that I have seen it.  Since those instances, I have elected to stay away from it. 

i think its to each his own but i have had lots of success with father daughter breeding and  now lots of ppl who do it with good results i would only do it then follow it with a outcross that was also line bred JMO

There really is no standard definition as to where the line is between inbred and linebred.  Both terms can mean different things to differnt people. 

I've allways heard and thought of inbred as a negative term, meaning a close breeding turned out bad.  And line bred was a close breeding than turned out good.  In my opinion allot really depends on the breeding history of the dogs used in the cross.  For example a Fauther Daughter cross.....If the dam to the daughter was totally unrelated to the Sire.  Then take the pups for the father daughter cross and cull hard for negative traits that could be a good start in getting a line of dogs going.  Ofcourse if you had some dogs that were allready tightly bred a father daughter breeding probly too close.  Even so, dogs that throw negative traits because they were bred too tight might not make breding material for fear of perpetuating those traits further down the line but they may still make good using dogs just not breeding dogs.

Waylon

well crap i guess  We (my grandaddy ,dad,, breeding cattle,horse and dogs )  been doing it all wrong and i guess  my ag teacher was  wrong too.. (rip H.D. Kay) Ag teach in Troy Texas  "79"  and other refrence Dr. Morgan  biology,zoology  79 80 81 Temple  college
   everyones got an ideal on breeding and ill stick with what i was taught and it works for me
     Dexter

My father - daughter  breedings have worked great with pups that hit the ground working at very young ages with no problems. But this is with dogs that have not been line nor inbred to death.
I then breed one of those pups back to an outcross (if things or to tight) or an uncle or aunt depending on what I want.

first off inbreeding didn't make pits attack people, bad owners did. you can truly breed anyway you would like. for best %'s you have to always start with a GREAT dog then you need a GREAT female. from that point you have to see if they are producers. this will take nothing but time. people for some reason think just because this dog is great he will throw great dogs. if he doesn't come from a line of high % producers then he probally isn't going to be a high % producer.

if you are going to linebreed/inbreed make sure whatever dogs you stick together are what you want as them being so closely related their traits (as stated) both good and bad will show up promenently. when i was breeding pits the best cross i seen was a good three way cross. take three really great lines and interweave them. when we did this our litters had a really high production rate and the traits we wanted showed up at high %'s as well. if your line starts to take a step back it was easy to get back live by just taking one of the three lines and infusing a pure representative of that line with teh traits you want and your yard is live again for about 5-10yrs.

x2 on the pitbull comment.  Very well spoken duece!!

Thanks for the input gentleman. Very interesting. I think if i do it its line breeding and if you do it its inbreeding  ;) JK

Very interesting subject. I agree with what most have said, when line breeding this not only passes on good but also the bad traits. Whether you are line breeding or not I believe you should only breed the best dogs, if you don't you end up with a bunch of pups that ain't worth the feed they are eating.  :-\

I cant help it. I have to ask.

If you have old dog men who have figured out how to breed high percentages of very intellegent, hard hunting dogs , then why do you even care what this board has to say?  ???
Seems to me the proof is right there in the pudding. If it was me, I would get on back to those old dog men and keep taking notes.  ;)

the  proof  in a  line  breeding  program  is  in the  stock  it has  produced ...... perty  plain and simple   some  programs produce  what that  person  likes  and  what another  person  doesn't  like ..




.. get a  registration  form  to  register a  ukc bred  dog  and  it  says  what  is  considered  inbred  and  will  be  on  your  papers  if  bred  that way .......been  years  since  i  registered  one  but  i  believe  its  father  to  daughter  mother  to  son  or  siblings bred  together .......





let me  say  this  old  stocks  of  dogs  is  just that  old  stocks  of  dogs  ,,,,,,,we  have  to  adapt all the time ........

I agree with you Mr. Parker. In line breeding, the principles seem to be the same even though folks breed to their own liking.

 
I use to think like make-em-squeel's hunting buddies. Bred best to best. 3 puppies out of over 40 is not good at all. Most of the others were decent dogs but only watered down versions of the great dogs they were bred out of.

In other words, I never bred chit breeding best to best and just got lucky on 3.

 

 

thing  is  you can't  breed  whole  litters  of  exceptional dogs ...some  will always  be  better than  other's  in the  litter ......you can  actually breed  lesser  line  bred  dogs and  get  better  litters  as a  whole  with a  good  chance  of  seeing  an  exceptional  dog ....... i  have  always  said  i'd  breed  to  a  lesser  line  bred dog  over an  exceptional  dog  of  poor  breedings ...... it's  teh  throw  backs  you  get  with  non  line  bred  dogs ......thats  why  its  hard  to  compare  breeding multiple  litter  animals  to  horses  or  cattle ........ we  have  to  breed  for  intellagence as  well  as  physical  traits ..... i believe  i  can  breed  up  any  line  just  takes a  while  to  do  it ........

In-Breeding by definition is: Father X Daughter, Mother X Son, Brother X Sister. No matter what the AG teacher says or your granpa or anyone else! That being said, if you choose to breed Father to Daughter that is not necessarily a bad thing, it doesnt mean the dog will have two heads. The biggest concern would be the same as what you are trying to achieve with all those quility traits and that is hopefully you will concentrate them in the next generation! Now for the concern  "YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY CONCENTRATE THE NEGATIVE TRAITS AS WELL" Remember you will only be able to reproduce "TRAITS" example (cold nose) You will not reproduce "LEARNED BEHAVIOR" example (good handle). If you have a strong UNDESIRABLE TRAIT you will only deminish that trait with an OUTCROSS! Likewise if a dog lacks a certain TRAIT you desire (Hunt Drive) you will need to make an OUTCROSS in an attempt to secure some of those traits for your future generations.

                                                                              This is NOT JMO! These are facts 8)
Grant, who's the DR. now???......lol

I just want to say that the theory of only breeding dogs who are great to other great dogs is the only way to get great offspring is not true in my opinion. A dog has genetics just as people do and those genetics are what will make your dogs. For instance if you have two littermates and one of them is average and one is really good, in my opinion their offspring will have the same genetic make up and therefore be the same dogs. Something else to consider when calling a dog or dogs great, are the oppurtunities they have to learn their craft.

I am not an expert and don't know about how genes all mesh together but DR. White ( formerly Texas A&M I think dead now anyway) was an expert, here is a link to some articles he wrote there are some by others but his are there two. He was handed a very tight line bred family of Foxhounds his daddy left him and his grandpa gave his daddy he had both hands on & the science experience and I trust what he say's (not that it matters what i think ) and there are many others that  produces a very high number of great dogs year after year. So thats who I ask about breeding, men who have had an unusualy high # of above average dogs of like traits and style that reproduce like dogs over and over.

http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com/breeding.html

Linebreeding is just a milder form of inbreeding, but technically they're the same thing and each has their place for a breeder who has a goal in mind, and a pretty good understanding of how to achieve it.

The purpose of linebreeding is simply consistancy.  This breeding method doesn't produce better or worse dogs, just dogs that are consistant with the line.  With linebreeding, your goal should never be to produce a dog that is any better than the dogs you start with.

how  many  colleges or  dr's  does  anyone  know  that  has  studied  breeding  results  of  hogdogs ?   and  if  they did  they  would  have  different  conflicting  opinions .....


YOU DO NOT  HAVE  TO  OUTCROSS  TO  ADD  TO  YOUR  LINE .......  most  likely  there  is  individuals  in  your  line  that  posses  what  you  are  trying  to  acheive ....might take  you  several litter's  to  get  one  that  shows  it ....


dogs are subject to have lots of throw  backs .....thats  why  dogs  are  different than  breeding  livestock ..... also  why they are  great  for  line breeding ....you  can select breed  from  within ...then  line  breed  from there ....may be  alot  easier  to  just  outcross  or  start  over  but  it  can be  done .....


i've started  me  a  little  project  breeding  to a  female  german shorthair ......do i need  too ....no .....i'm looking at  maybe  just  maybe  i  will get  something  more physical ( faster) just a  better  athelete .......


but  nose,hunt, brains  no  i  can  get that  from  what  i  have .....most dogs  breeds  i know  of  if not  all  have  common  inherited  traits  just  from being a  dog ..... and  can  be  bred  up  or  bred  down from  within there  own  lines ........its  the  color  and  physical aspects we may  have  to out cross  for .... idefinately am no exspert just my limited opinion ///

you make two great points, however breeding greatness to greatness should be a breeders montra!

parker and raider54 you are both right! how you like them apples...lol.

parker if your line has the traits you are looking for you can stay within your line to get what you want. problem is like you said you may have to go through several litters to find what you want, then you have to breed that individual to their parents to get what you want. then in that litter you may not get ANY that show that trait so you have to repeat that breeding to get what you want again, hoping it shows. if you have a trait in your line that doesn't show prominently you have to do a lot of breedings to get what you want and most people don't have that time, so most people outcross to QUICKLY get what they want.

i use pitbulls because that is what i have the most experience with. if you take the eli line of dogs there are several different STRAINS within this LINE. if you take nigerino, this line of dogs produce dogs that are long athletic and really fast dogs. the eli jr dogs are bigger, stonger and have WAY more bite, the jeep dogs are more traditional in size and don't produce as much bite but are generally more game than either of the other two. three lines that originate from the same dog(eli) but you can't tell they are related by looking at them or by their traits.

some of the best pits of all time were father to daughter(we call that double bred), and some were triple bred(a pup whose sire is also the grandsire and the great-grandsire). when they are bred that tight you then have to go a realted dog that has an outcross in there also. this wakes up the blood when you do this. inbreeding is a great tool if you know what your doing. just going best to best is a great idea, BUT it has to be not just great dog to great dog BUT a great dog from a great line of dogs bred to another great dog from a great line of dogs..my last thing for everyone to think about is the ablity to reproduce. if you take a great dog that doesn't come from a line of dogs that reproduce then you are pissin in the wind.. ;)

" just going best to best is a great idea, BUT it has to be not just great dog to great dog BUT a great dog from a great line of dogs bred to another great dog from a great line of dogs..my last thing for everyone to think about is the ablity to reproduce. if you take a great dog that doesn't come from a line of dogs that reproduce then you are pissin in the wind.. "

LOL. I can agree with this statement 100%. Im an expert at pissing in the wind!!!

No matter how you look at it, line breeding and outcrossing that line when you need it works! Figuring out how to do it right is the tricky part for me.

raider 54 ....... read what  i said ......you will  need  to outcross  for  physical aspects as well  as  color if  you  don't  have  what  you  desire in  your  line ....but  far  as  nose  and  hunt .....NO .......those  are dog  inherited  traits ....perty  much  all lines  of  dogs  have  it ......you  just  may  have  to  breed  several  times  to  get  one  with  it  then  line  breed  from  there ........ your  trying  to  use  horse  logic  to  dogs  in  some  area's  it  just  doesn't  aply ......


for  instance  some  of  the working  lines  of  dog  have  been  show  bred  so  much  they don't show  much  of  the traits they  were  bred  for .......nose /hunt/   now  in  reverse  respect  if  you  can  breed  it  out  you  can breed  it  back ......

I couldnt agree more!

Nose and Hunt I disagree, if your line doesnt have it you are out of luck. I used the horse analogy as a black and white illustration. as far as breeding back in what you have bred out? if it is bred out it is GONE! you can spend 20 years in a breeding program to find this out if you like but I believe I will make an outcross as a quick fix with better odds.

throw backs  is the  key .....it  can work  two  different  ways ......it  can  bring  you  too  or  away  from  what  you  want ,,,,,, line  bred  have  less  odd throw backs .......



i  don't  think  you  can breed  something like  nose  or  hunt totally  out ........  its what  makes a  dog  a  dog  ....... you  cannot  use  horse  logic  on  dogs  as  far  as  nose  and  hunt ...... 


 anytime a person needs  a  quick  fix   there  breeding practices wasn't  that  good  to  start  with ...... 

I agree with most of what everyone is saying, some more that others. Genetics is extremely complicated! Not only genetics determine how a dog hunts, but also their TRAINING. Most dogs (not all) that people consider "great" are that way because they have had alot of "great" training and experience. Anyway back to genteics, a dog can carry genes and not express them and some genes can effect other genes.Some genes may be passed through several generations before they show up. My opinion is ALL breeders should try to study and understand the genetics of the dogs, set a goal as to what they are looking for in the "perfect" dog, and then it is up to chance that they ever get it right!

Boarninja to answer your ? from a few posts back I guess honestly put I dont care what the forums opinion is because I am getting pups from him regardless, however I am curious to know the opinions of everyone and find this to be an intersting post.

I simply dont believe you can breed great dog to great dog and reproduce good dogs on avg. I have seen it fail over and over. Talking about most pups in the litter not the exception's, and who wants to feed an entire litter for 9-12mo to save a 1 or a few. However Bob Cox's line bred curs throw consistant hard hunting go yander dogs with great bottom etc. Even though the papers are inbred something is working.

bob coxs has got some real good blood wouldn't be scared to hunt with any of his dogs

Seen failure over and over? Sounds like they were using my breeding program from 15- 20 years ago! lol.
 
Line breeding/inbreeding definitely works but only a small handful I know of has got or had a good handle on it. I also agree that done wrong or handled recklessly it can and will produce junk.
I seen it in my younger days by others and thats why it took me so long to change my way of thinking about it.
Heck! Im still trying to get a handle on it myself and thats why I am so interested in these threads. Maybe I never really will but, If I had a man like Mr. Cox to take notes from, I would be miles ahead! Men like that are way more valuable to you than a good dog thats for sure. They can teach you how to make a bunch of good dogs!
 
 

yes  some forms of line breeding  can and is called iningbreeding  i will agree with that   and disagree with that depends on what percentages of one  or both foudation parents genes you are trying to achieve  there will alway be an arguement of  breeding practices til theend of time   here is on type of line breeding i think most are talking about and yes i will agree with this it in the end only ends with 37 % of the  one said gene type in the final offspring                                                         i think i can do this

Trippz
           Ginger
Queen

                          Ringo


Chooper
           Boomer
Lacy

------------------------------  Twisted Sister  with 37 percent of the parent genes  this is the truest form of line breeeding

Trippz
         Ginger   
Queen
                       Jasper
Joker
         Spanky   
Darla

   as its said mybe so in breeding i might  be doing  but i sill get   consitant  dogs of size mind and work ability  even doing the in breeding or line breeding or how ever they are bred and will continue to do so til im dead and have bred dogs cattle  gamecocks  with great results   
     and  also have follow the  true form of line breeding  but only got about  a 1/3 of what i wanted verses  over 3/4  and a less amount of time and dogs  and i will say this i have had some throwed off POS's that was culled permantlly and never repeated that breeding if the % of pos dogs was greater than a 1/4
 Dexter
 o and i dont knock dead folks  its just bad karma

What about evolution, if my grandpa had 100 hot nose dogs never outcrossed ever and pushed them to cold trail, my daddy did the same thing, i did also then my son did. would anyone say the dogs would never get better nosed than the first dogs my grandpa started with, I cant buy into that at all. some will say well they might learn to use there nose better thats all, or i would just be line breeding the better nosed dogs and it would just show up that way, i dont beleave that either. I don't think it takes 1000's of years either. In a given pack of any wild animal it takes only a few generations to alter there natural make up to adapt to there surroundings and I think dogs work the same way. Line breeding will be argued about until Jesus comes back, but if you dont work what ever dogs you have to there full ability then it doesnt really matter cause you will never know what you had anyway. I don't think most guys need to be breeders, myself included because it takes you spending alot of time, more than most of us really have, with your dogs watching them and working with them daily to really know what your working with, then you need to keep every pup until there atleast a year old, i think longer. then cull like hell and if you do that for 50 years your well on your way to being a breeder................................................ but JMO

I have a question. I have a female that is the best hog dog I have ever owned. I bred her one time before and a buddy of mine has a male from that litter. I wouldn't change a thing about either one of them. If I bred those two would I have a real good chance of  the pups coming out like them ?  Someone told me it's better to breed from the top but I have no idea  ??? Thanks.

my opinio i would do it i normally breed dad to daughter but if you truly like everything about the two then go for it the only thing like stated above is your goin to have different genes show up in some of the pups so to get the good ones your goin to have to keep the whole litter and cul hard that's where in my opinion ppl mess up and dog jockeys take advantage they don't cull i cull hard if you don't want junk gett rid of the rejects JMO

in my opinion your chances depends on if both those dogs come from dogs that have produced dogs like that before. if those two are the only ones that have come out like out of several litters then your chances are no greater than any of ours. now if those dogs come from a line of dogs that are throwing real good dogs consistantly then you have a better than avg chance. i would do it. the males out of that litter that are good i would take to their grandmother and the females i would take to their grandfather. i think you then have a great base of dogs to start with.

Said it before, and I'll say it again...the purpose of linebreeding is to refine and add consistancy to what you start with...outcrossing is to add something else desired.  Outcrossing within a breeding program is also important for health reasons.

Breeding, whether it be linebreed, inbreed, outcrossing or whatever is the easy part.  Evaluating, culling and not lying to yourself about what your looking at is the hard part.  If the purpose of anyone's breeding is to produce dogs everyone will like, you will most likely fail.  If your goal is to produce dogs that you personally will be pleased with, there is no better way.

Breeding, whether it be linebreed, inbreed, outcrossing or whatever is the easy part.  Evaluating, culling and not lying to yourself about what your looking at is the hard part.  If the purpose of anyone's breeding is to produce dogs everyone will like, you will most likely fail.  If your goal is to produce dogs that you personally will be pleased with, there is no better way.

x2
That about sum's it up right there!

Thanks.

line breeding seems to be something to think about im breeding a full parker jip back to her daddy rowdy2 im going to see what happens should be some jam up pups

I know hoghunterdfw will buy one from you if he can. I am getting some line bred dogs that all trace back to the henry dog. He started the ben jordan stock dogs, ben jordan culled weatherford ben for being to gritty then mr wright got him and did exceptional marketing.....So I am basically getting a weatherford ben dog but i like the way the ones hunt that i am getting a pup out of.

I thought a fella named bauman from or some thing like that had weatherfords ben and he sold him to Randy, his grandsire was a Jordan dog, but I could be wrong I was once.

I would really like to find some good info some yella dog bloodlines cause I really don't know to much, always had Catahoula's but realy like what Ihave see in the yella dogs I have been around better so I made the switch and aint looking back

Do any of yall know if NALC has a problem registering pups from line breeding? I have been looking for a big 70-80lb catahoula gyp to breed my bad boy to but have had no luck getting one. I just had a litter in december and decided to keep my favorite gyp from the litter to line breed. She is 4 months and is just about as big as her mom now and has feet as big as my 75lb male.  the first time she laid eyes on a hog in the pin she was a bayin monster just as my male was at 4 months. i cant help but think she is a carbon copy of my male other than color. I plan on breeding if nalc doesnt have a big problem with it. what yall think?

NALC is a registry...as long as both parents are NALC registered, they'll register the litter.

I'm farly new to hog dogs, But 18 months ago an old friend from TN.  that i trained bird dogs with some years ago wanted me to work with some pups. catahoula's and bmc's. so far these dogs are highly intelligent and i think i can train one to do anything in time...but i believe just as with pointer's some u can start at 4 weeks and be finished at 18 months and others seem stupid and worthless till their 2 years old,and their 4 years by the time u can hunt them, and some time they make the best champion dogs.....or breed champion pups....JMO

Yea some pups come on later than others with line breeding unless thats a trait your line breeding for, I just wanted the opinions on how close is line breeding to in-breeding HOWEVER line breeding increases your odds of consistant good dogs you can reproduce when yours die compared to good dog to good dog. thats my .02

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

I was reading some old threads and had to comment on this one.

The closest form of inbreeding is when littermates brother and sister are bred together. This is probably one of the fastest ways to get a breeding program going as long as they have all the traits that you want. Grandsire/granddam should have the same traits and further back is even better.

Purebred animals have immune system issues due to a reduced genetic base. If you don't vaccinate or worm mongrels some will live to breed another day. This is evolution at work... Survival of the fittest as well as a wider genetic base.

Neglect worming or vaccinating your linebred/purebred pup and let's see how long it survives.... Part of the reason the pup won't live is the genetic base issue, that issue is due to keeping them looking and acting a certain way (puebred). We as humans breed these purebred pups specifically this way for our reasons, then, we will intervene to keep the pups alive by vaccinating and worming them. I reckon we can call this manipulating or interfering with mother nature/evolution, thus creating a higher percentage of dogs that depend on mankind for survival.

In my opinion linebreeding and inbreeding is the way to go to get the best possible pups for whatever your reasons or goals are and the fastest way to get there AS LONG AS WE SELECT THE RIGHT PUPS.
YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES ON. Don't breed bootsie because she has two white socks even though she don't hunt but she sure is cute, and don't breed old blue because he has that perfect conformation and you know he doesn't hunt. If we breed dogs with these loose rules we will stumble and fail...

NEVER COMPRIMISE... Well never say never, Once I had two gyps and one got killed by a hog and the other died from heat exhaustion. That was the end of me saying never breed what I consider a cull. I had given a pup to a friend of mine. All he wanted was a jam up strike dog that could find hogs. I had tested her as a pup and she was rolling out at 3-4 months. I culled her because she was less than 40 pounds and wasn't very gritty.

Rather than going out and bringing in new blood we bred her to her grandfather and I kept the smallest female pup and she weighed about 45 pounds when grown and was very gritty. Took that gyp and bred her to her great grandsire and got good pups.

IN my opinion I would rather breed a lesser gyp from a good line than to outcross and lose what has been bred for for years. Parker says the same thing.

The most important thing about linebreeding and inbreeding is making the right selections... ;)

In our minds eye, We have got to know what a good hog dog is before we start breeding hog dogs. NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME IDEA AS TO WHAT A GOOD HOGDOG IS... :)

Most dog folks are not in it for the money. They would rather give a good pup away to someone who will appreciate a good pup, or just sell to cover some expenses.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO GO FORWARD... :o :)

you can do it, i do and i have bred brother and sister 1 time, and then breed dad to daughter , mother to son. i raised fighting chickens and thats how we kept the blood the same for 24 years.

Although I have made some tight breeding in te same gene pool. thee are some some varying opinions out on the internet if you wanted to read, some I find disturbing others simplify the definitions, here are some links

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~Marge_S_2/nonframes/inbreeding.htm


http://www.kirbymountainkennels.com/Articles/practices.html

yall gotta read this one
http://www.miniature-schnauzer-australia.com/line_breeding_dogs.html

Great reads UglyDog! Thanks for posting them up!

Does anyone know how much outcrossing, linebreeding or even inbreeding is generally found in the wolf or coyote population? :-\

I suspect there is a certain amount of linebreeding and maybe even some inbreeding. If this theory is true then how are the genetic faults kept to a minimum?  My gut feeling is that there is a certain amount of linebreeding/inbreeding but through evolution the faulty pups/cubs didn't make it and died off before they were old enough to breed, hence the cleansing of the species happened many centuries ago. My feeling is that this probably did happen and still is happening today and the wolf and the coyotes are doing just fine in the wild. If we can map out their pedigrees and cull the pups like mother nature culls the wolf and coyote then we could consistantly breed good dogs that look Identical and hunt alike just as the coyotes/wolves reproduce true to their species... ???

Line breeding is noting but a tool , inbreeding is noting but a tool .  It is when people that don't understand how to use these tools things go wrong and sometimes in inbreeding still goes wrong with someone that knows what is going on .

Line breeding is breeding with in a family of dogs to keep the genetics and  traits going strong and also knowing what little outs to use to keep the traits of your family of dogs strong and right.

Inbreeding is done to try and capture certain gene pools of a certain dog are trying to recreate and ole dog n the back of the pedigree some were with inbreeding dogs that go directly back to him are her.  But many things can go wrong and you can screw up your whole yard in no time at all if you don't know what you are looking at.

After a family of dogs gets so tightly bred the genes have no room to breath so to speak and become stale it might look great on paper saying you have the purest of the pure but in real life it is pure chit  .  When this happens u can take that pure inbred dog and make a direct out cross and when the pups come out you will never even be able to tell you put a complete cross in those dogs they are slow, their conformation is not right , they have no lung power , they have no speed , no stamina and you are rubbing  your head saying damn that cross must not have worked well it was not the cross it was because your inbred dog is so highly pure are inbred that when you made the cross his gene pool completely dominated the out crosses gene pool and you cannot even see the out crossed gene pool any were .

Even tho on paper this says the dogs are a 50/50 cross they are not .  Why you say,  because gene pools and genetics don't know paper and what happen was your inbred dog was so pure bred his gene pools dominated the whole thing and what you really have in real life is dogs that are still  7/8's your inbred dog gene pool !

Most people will number 2 can this and write it off as a cross that didn't work and which it didn't but what you have to do to fix it is you will have to take those dogs that are really 7/8's bred your pure dog even tho th paper says they are 50/50 crosses and cross them again on a pure out .   What happens now is with this cross is you are starting to break down your pure dogs gene pool and now this time you might actually come out with some true 50/50 cross even tho you have had to cross two times to get there even tho the paper work will now show your family bred dogs are only in there 25 percent are a 1/4  lol  and will show that you now have a 3/4 out crossed dogs and a 1/4 your pure blood !

Which if your family dog your pure dog that you first started out with if his gene pool was that pure and that stale you may indeed still have some 3/4 pure dogs in the liter with only a 1/4 out cross.

Inbreeding is tricky and even tho the paper work says this a breeder  has to know what he is looking at .  In this type of breeding I have learned over the years a breeder should trust his eyes and not paper !

I could go on for days on this subject cause I been there.

I know there are some that will say damn this man likes to write a book but there is no easy way to explain this in just a few words when  you have seen so much over a 30 year period !

man blow that $h1t out.... you have to be high to follow this thread. O0
 
line breeding/inbreeding IS the same thang. both are insest and insest is the best put your cousin to the test. this topic makes my head hurt. if ya breed two good dogs together and they throw good dogs do it again, if not try another breeding next time. sister,brothers,cousins,uncles,daughters,mothers,fathers,sons or what ever works its all a crap shoot in the end.

back when buck was just a calf i was around a whole bunch of high dollar champion walker dogs, my uncle always bred his two best dogs it didnt matter if they were related or not most of the time they were related. he insisted this was the only way to halfway assure ya MIGHT get a few good pups "if ya breed crap ya get crap" he culled hard core and always had great dogs. Jmo popo

I think maybe people are over thinking this a little.

So, in your opinion it's all happenstance? Is there no science whatsoever in consistently producing quality dogs?

its really not a crap shoot line breeding is basic science if you take the time to study it, and you will reproduce the traits your looking for much more often than throwing good dog to good dog. What if all your good dogs litter mates were sh!t eaters, what do you think the odds are of you getting good dogs from him?

He's right.  Everyone should just bred any ol' dog.  There is nothing to producing consistant hunting pups.  Anyone can do it.  Start with the mangiest mongrels you can find at the pound.  Any dog will hunt, RIGHT???????????

Cutter I want to breed my best cur to your best hound!! Then we will have the best pups!!They will bark on track half the time and be silent the other half!!You can use them the day's they bark and I will use them the days there silent!!

Being you have been line breeding and I have been line breeding then they should be line breed pups!!You think we can sale some on the dog trade!!What do you think they would be worth!!OMG we just invented a super dog!!

Now that is a breeding plan right there!
Set back and get high as a kite. Determine your next cross in the process. Then wait and see what happens. ;D
If someone is using this plan let us now how it is working out for ya. :D

line bredding -inbreeding  what ever you call it.    it works !!!!!   

 you have to own something worth line breeding before its gona work.

 yes, if a guy wants good stock it takes alot of thinking and planning.

you forgot the King Ranch , they line bred father x daughter and mother x son too..

I wonder what kind of dogs we would all be hunting today if the ole men the pioneers of old/founders of breeds never gave it much thought back then and just bred dogs best to best never caring about heritage, genetics, gene pools are family blood?

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

If they bark at a cow early in the morning, you can hunt it.  It they bark at a coon early morning, it's my day to hunt the dog.  I like the way you think.  I sure hope they are blue and not yellow.  Man, I do have a reputation to protect.   ;D

 
     

      I don't know how much thought that they put into genetics back then but i do know that they culled like a mo fo! People couldn't afford to feed a dog, it had to earn its keep. That alone created some really good dogs. Then when the economy grew and it was fashionable to have a dog as a family pet and everyone wanted puppies for their kids to play with, thats when the gene pool went to crap....IMO ;)

If they can't stop a hog within the first 63 yards of where they jump it, you can blame it on the hound in them.  However, if they trail more than 5 steps to find the hog, you have to give credit to the hound in them.  Just saying.

x2, and alot of thinking and planning is half the fun.... :)

Preach on sister!!!

 " Breed tight and carry a big hammer" words from a breeder of fine catahoulas
        Dexter

    A few years back I read alot of material on linebreeding horses. An author "Robert Denmark" wrote a really good book I believe the title is " The King Ranch Horses". Robert Kleberg was trying to duplicate A horse named Ole Sorrel, Real good reading. But a little later I listened to a interview with Tio Kleberg, I believe Red Steagal was the interviewer. He recognized they were carrying it too far. That was when the ranch purchased Peppy San Badger, along with bloodlines of other top horses. I believe this goes to show whether its linebreeding or inbreeding, watched carefully can be a good thing. But the time for the outcross can always be expected. Also and I DON'T know this for sure, but always heard of the King ranch driving herds of bad horses off the ranch. Like I stated I don't know for sure, but it would make sense. Breeding horses in this fashion has always been a good debate and I'm sure it will be the same with dog breeders!

yes they bred old sorrel get every way you could cross them ,i think Mr San Peppy was first that is  peppy san badger sire

I bought mtn curs from a man in San Antonio. He also bred Thoroughbred race horses. He told me that horse breeding and dog breeding were different. He said that you could predict certain things when breeding horses but that it did not hold true for breeding dogs. If I remember correctly he was talking mainly about color at that time.

He did have some of the best mtn curs I hunted though.

in the horse and dogs i have raised,  breeding for athletic ability and trainabilty just to name a few traits i was looking for, i havent seen much difference in the out come of line breeding in horses and dogs.

something i havent heard mentioned much is the trainer,   the man at the reins or lead has alot to do with the out come of a dog or horse..

 just my .02

I have seen above average hog dogs go to another hog hunter/hunters and within 6 months the dog was pretty near a cull.


I also saw someone who had a horse that gave him a lot of trouble and wouldn't move forward. This same guy got another horse that was a good hunting horse that started doing the exact same thing as his previous horse. I totally agree with your statement.

I agree and have seen the same thing with dogs getting better or worse with new handlers. However you dont train a bird dog to point a pit to be game or a hound to track its just in them from years of line breeding. A cur dog bred properly will hunt and hold bay for hrs, line breeding increases your odds of every avg dogs from the litter doing this well. If the trainer will stay out of the way and put them on hogs you shouldnt have to be a great handler. They need to know come, load up, and hopefully get ahead is in the dna. i cant wait until my father to daughter pup gets here!

man I feel like a whooped dog after the line breeding comment I posted.  rolleyes
I guess alot of the guys feel as though it is ROCKET science. I guess I was raised wrong.  :-X

you are right there are some things you cant train,   but a good handler can bring out the best in a dog.

LOL  we where taking turns on you..     

its not rocket science cause you dont know if it gona work till after its done

x2 :)