EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

waylon had started a post the ither day about some pups he got from me,  a siber ghost ate it or something. ;D
so ill start it back up.

here is the pup i got from cward she is going to be an outcross on my dogs. she is out of skoalbandit and bigo dog and cward gyp.
this was the first time any of these pups had seen a hog, they started on their own with out the help of any older dogs.
i was wanting to get some feed back on the other pups even if they are just pot lickers  ;D

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/cralof/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo-0032-2.jpg)

these are pups from 3 differnt litters, some from clue anderson male and my gpy , the others are line breed out of my dogs.  these are litter mates to the pups i sold a few guys from the site.

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/cralof/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo-0029-1.jpg)

i had the pig on a sting and things got to rough pretty quick so i had to save the pig and put him in my dog box the pictures are in reverse order actually.

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/cralof/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo-0025.jpg)

Dang cyber ghosts! >:D

Craig, pups are lookin' good! ;D

Those are some purty pups. I like the pup you got from cward

Those are some good lookin pups!!

Craig..

Those are some nice looking pups... The little gyp sure has grown and is pretty dang shiney.  The brothers and sisters to her that we brought home from Chance's sure look and act nice.I bet some of em make it. These bay something all day around here.. lol  I have a lot of confidence in Chance and his dogs. The boy knows what he is doing, he is one of few that i really respect his program.  
I Thought you might like to see a picture of that litte gyps daddy. ( Bear) It was taken on a hunt this morning right after catchin a boar hog. He put a track job on that hog that any hound man alive would have been proud of.. As you can see from the scars, He's  proven and been hunted hard. He hasent and still don't spend his life on a chain..He's a dog that loves to bay the big boys, almost jump over a pig to bay or go with the big hog.. I guess he's got the badges to show for it.. He's a real dog that honestly can and will do it all. When you free cast him or put him down on a track, you best want to go huntin...lol  

(http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo196/skoalbandett/42010_34.jpg)

Here's some pups out of our dogs on a hunt sunday. It was a puppy hunt. Two of them are out of one of clue's gyps. We just started them.. They are doing well.

 (http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo196/skoalbandett/42010_03.jpg)

sounds like the bear dog can get the job done.  thats what it takes up here where we dont have that many hogs.

Here are my pups I got from craig as well as my Catahoula pup who was with them, they will flat get in front of this monster there baying. The will dig into the pigs pen if you let'em out of there pen, they are keepers 4sure.I will post some better pics when we take the piglet into the woods for some work out's. These pups blew up on this piglet from the second they first saw it and the one I call Able recovering his voice and resting he bayed so much he can't hardly bark ( He is the BMC pup running to get in front of the pig as the catahoula is over it's back)
(http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx274/waylonstokes/007.jpg)
(http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx274/waylonstokes/011.jpg)
(http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx274/waylonstokes/014.jpg)

 They should make some damn fine dogs if they turn out as good as BEAR. I think very highly about BEAR and will hunt behind him and enjoy every minute of it as long as BIGO and Scoalbandit will have me.

Looking good Craig and Skoal!!!!  Oh Buck Wild is in alittle trouble right Now him and his side kick Gunny (Jack Russel) decided to go on a goat killing spree!!! Buck Wild has lost his freedom on the place and is in puppy prison and don't get to hang out with gunny no more!!!But I'm sure when I turn them loose in the woods it will be on like donkey kong!!!!!  >:D   Buck Wild is really wanting to get into something the goats just so happen to be what he got into!!!!

Craig here's couple pictures of Anny ruff housing with her buddy's
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr305/BQM8/dog013.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr305/BQM8/dog018.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr305/BQM8/dog020.jpg)

chance, he is about ready for a job, maybe that will keep him out of trouble.    are you planning on useing him on cattle also ?


barry ,  she has adjusted well, didnt you say she had started baying , when you were working with your catch dog pups.

Yea I had her running loose and when pig went to sqealing she went to baying like a pro but what I was most impressed with when I got catch dog pups loose I tossed pig over fence to get it away from them, Anny trailed pig across pasture to fence line behind house about 200 to 300 yards and she used her nose to get on trail then bayed him under a cedar tree for about 15 mins by herself before I let one of them bulldog pups catch it again. Now the pig wasn't but about 10 lbs and pretty wore out from bulldog pups but still pretty impressive for a pup that small to go 200 to 300 yards by herself and bay till i got there. I got a good vidio of her baying with bulldogs pups on pig but I dont feel like its suitable for the world wide web. ;)

i think she will make a good one one day.

i like to show my pups a hog at a young age mostly to help me in my selection of pups to keep, in my experience the pups that start showing interest early continue to be at the top of my pick when they are 6 to 8 mo. old and most of the top pups will still be my top pick at a year old.   i dont rush them , i show them a hog at about 3 mo. and they maynot see another pig till they are 5 or 6 mo, then i will start taking one pup with me on a hunt at 6 to 8 mo., i want to have my selection narrowed down to maybe 2 pups by the time they are 1 yr. , then go to puting alot of time in on the better of the 2 and hopefully have you a good start to a jam up dog by 2 .  its a long road but thats the only way i have been able to get what i consider a really good dog.

Man that dog, bear. Is no joke ,them r some real scars good lord.....

Good looking pup BQM, if she gets home sick for this part of Oklahoma let me know ;)

Good lookin pups

Man those are some nice lookin pups

these pups sure are good looking. are they line bred or just some really good parents?

how old are the pups from the 1st set of pics?

What about the cur and cat, how old are they?

The BMC with my catahoula was born Jan 10 if I remember correct and the catahoula is about a month older than him and his brother

Craig
 some mighty fine yeller pups you have there
 
 lots of mighty fine dogs in the pictures
     Dexter

thank you Mr Dexter ...

Bino
the pup in the first picture is about 8 or 9 weeks old,  the other pups are 11 and 13 weeks old

Craig line breeds his dogs and so do I have been breeding dogs since 1991 and when I found Craig , Skoal , and Bigo on this site it gives me someone to out cross that is trying to get to the same point I am!!!I have a gyp Ellie that is 88% my blood it was time for an outcross and I breed to Bigo's dog bear!!! Then swaped Craig one of his pup for a pup out of that cross!! I kept 3 pups and have a plan if they turn out like I hope to breed them back to a line breed dog of mine!! If Craigs pup turns out witch is showing great promise I will cross him with my Robin Gyp witch is 76% my blood!!!! I cull hard and these guys do also there is no 100% litter but a high percentage turn out!! I look for a pro in all my dogs not colledge players and for sure not highschool player!!!Even though colledge player get to stay for something special about them could be they are really good on cows or just get a certain job done!!But them high school players just don't last around here!!

A man gets backed in a corner sometimes breeding dogs and you have to look for the right kind of cross outside of your kennel at some point. Finding the right man and dog isn’t impossible but double tough to do. To find the right kind of proven dog from a proven line of current dogs that have men on the lead shank that are for real gets tougher and tougher today in my opinion. When it comes to  BMC dogs the only good lines of consistent dogs that I know of always seem to come from a very few  men who you can define from their history and make up. I have heard it called a culture they are part of and is part of their makeup.
That bear dog is proven, solid and comes from a long line of get it done dogs that came to our family 35 years ago.  He’s a product of a ½ brother x ½ sister breeding, even tighter than that on back. I have seen and been to the woods with his mama, daddy, grand mama, granddaddy, great grandmamma, great granddaddy and so on. Hunted several of his full blood brothers and sisters over the  years and was proud to have em. Still have 2 full blood sisters and one of them is the best gyp I ever went to the woods with.   But your right, once again we reached a point we needed some outside blood in our kennel to, the older line of dogs are awful tight and have been for several years now.  I was happy to breed Ellie and get some pups off her and Bear. First of all I think Chance has the right kind of dogs and the dogs have the right kind of man on the lead shank with a  history as well as a selection criteria I agree with. Him and Clue are rare birds out there today when it comes to BMC dogs in my opinon.
 I really hope some of them will work out. We’ll sure be hunting the hair off of the ones we brought home the next couple years to see.

Oh and when we have a cull he don't leave hear!!We don't get soft hearted and try to pawn him off on someone else or try to get are money back out of him!! That in my opion is where all the junky dogs start and where alot of bad names get called about individules who do not have the heart to cull a true cull!! Cull hard and make sure those traits leave your gentics!!!

Yes craig I will atleast start Buck Wild on cows!!!

If I mailed ya'll a 6 pack each would you keep talking cause I am learning and enjoying the info and opnions about yella dog breeding. I can listen all day long to folks who have proven they have the attitude and character to breed good dogs and will cull hard making no excuses when they fail. Good info guys

some really good looking pups yall have !!! waylon is that your breed of cat . or what is it out of  good looking pup... almost the color of T.D.H.A pup that we won turning out really well .. Thanks dexter

The Catahoula pup is out of an old Red lep. male I raised & called  Cowboy and a blue lep. bitch from Travis & Nicloe Starr in Stillwell,Ok. My buddy Bill has her now ( The pups mom ) and I took the pup to kinda keep some part of Cowboy around. Travis has Cowboy now and is using him on cows which is what he always wanted to work anyway but he was the type that was bad to bite strangers and has a good number to. Ada the pup you asked about was to be my last Catahoula I was burnt out on them and was not finding what I liked so I made the switch to yella dogs they seem to suit me better but she is a keeper for sure. These 2 BMC pups from craig are way easier to handle and are super smart, my dad who has NEVER paid me a compliment on any dog I have ever owned EVER told me the other day... " I ain't ever been to high on most of your dogs :'( but I think them 2 are gonna be good dogs" Thats saying alot from my old man for sure he has a sixth sense about animals so they gotta be good'uns ;D

Craig if those pups work as good as they look, them you are doing something right.

Waylon if it was not for the Net I would have not found these guys!! My dogs might not fit everyone!!But they do have good gentics!!! They work great for me !!! I shorten the range on my dog and they do look for alittle direction because I use them all both ways (handle) It does slow them down because they don't want to make a mistake!!! But they look at a whole lot of hogs!!! But I did have a guy ask me about 6 months ago how long range will they go to find a hog I said not that far I would say if I hit a track  they will go with it all day but as for as hunting I Knocked that out of them by useing them both ways!! This man I respect and he has hunted a long time and worked lots of cattle he said I want to see what they will do without handle (Just straight hogs no cows) he has seen this blood of dog his whole life!!!  So I got 2 that I do not use on cows!! Mator out of Ike a line breed gyp that is 76% my blood and another male pup Named Motto Motto that is also out of Ike but 88% my blood!!  All I can say is you better not put them on the ground with just the Garmin you better have the Radio collars on them 2 they are fixing to hunt!!! Ike is my single best dog but he is lazy and don't range real far he is the last liveing son of my dog I started with in 1991 witch was line breed when I got him!!! Ike has produce more Pork than Walmart!!!!! He has produced some pretty nice pups also!! I have culled several off him that did not make my cut!! But produce some pretty nice pups!!All the best dogs that I ever owned were atleast half brothers or siters to Ike some way better than he is!!!

It does not matter if they are yellow, Cats, hounds, or UglyDogs !!!!! If you cull hard then you can only get better!! To me it would take 100 years of breeding to get a litter of a 100% Pro. dogs!!

And if there are breeders that say they do then why do they offer if he don't turn out than bring him back and I will give you another pup!! They would say ain't no need to bring him back because that pup is sure enough going to work no if ands buts about it bottom line!!!

When I give a pup away I ask for him not to be traded and if it don't make the cut to do away with it or bring it back to me to do so!!!!

One thing about Skoal- Bigo -and Craig you do not have to tell them guys that because you know they will handle the problem before I ever get that call to bring one back!!

Lots of people will argue and say that if a dog's bred with it, he/she is bred with it and handle (or the nature vs. nurture debate) won't affect the end product.  I strongly disagree.  It sounds like you have also proven this theory.  

Good looking pups by the way.

Unfortunately, that does not work in reverse order :)

Steve

Bryant it is hard for my dogs to figure out what we are doing most days!!Because we hunt on horse and work cows on horse!!! They will find woods cows its really hard to explain how we do it but it happens!! A dog with the right amount of brain can sure figure it out!!But it does knock the range off one because of looking for that direction!! I do not want to feed 15 cow dogs and 15 hog dogs!! I might loose alittle by useing them both ways but I only have to feed 15 instead of 30!! I still can get the job done on both ends at the end of the day!! It is nice to throw a super hard hunting long range dog down and go find hogs these dogs of mine have produced several of those dogs!! My Jake dog I did not use on cows and he was the real deal hog dog he would get you in lots of trouble if you did not have enough land!!! When I turn pups loose on cows they hustle straight to them bay until I get there and then when I get ready to go I call them off and sure they want to keep working and some times I have to get rough with them to get them off!! But after a few times they start looking for that comand witch is looking for that direction!!!! Heck if you look in I post a an picture of an EMU I took Ike just if I needed him he would have done what I ask him even though he has never seen a turkey like that!!  His daddy Rambo would help me gather up baby game chicks in the brush people would just laugh he would catch them and bring them to me and never killed one but only on the days I ask him to!!He ran loose and never bothered them until I went to catch them!!!

The dogs you describe Cward sound just like old time WORKING cur dogs. Thats the type of dog I strive for and will have on place. My personel like is a dog that doesn't range out like a hound but is short range, up here you might be looking for a few trouble hogs on 160 acres or 60,000 and a dog that flat blows out will get you in trouble or lost or worse. I also like a dog that is smart enough and willing enough to let me make the decisions when time allows or when i am present but can work equaly well when I am out of sight. My dogs will be 100% hog dogs but I want to know they have the brains to handle what ever job there given, I think i am headed in the right direction...Time will be my judge I guess

crystal, thanks for the complement on the pups. i have high hopes for them.  

 as chance has mentioned if not for this website,the internet(thanks Al Gore J/K  ;D) and the modern world of communication we live in, none of us would even know there were other dogs like ours in the world.
  i have just been line breeding my dogs for 10 yrs, i have been hunting for 15.  once a guy finds what he likes and starts focusing on it and not straying off of your goal,  time will fly by, and you will be able to produce your own dogs to fit your style.  this is what i have done not because i wanted line bred dogs but mainly i could not find the type of dog i wanted in my local area.    i have raised enough pups over the years to keep myself and a few freinds in dogs.
i have some of my dogs placed with some guys that are going to use them and give them a good oppurtunity, and thats all a guy can ask for.

it's great to have guys like Chance Ward, skoalbandit, bigo  and Clue Anderson  keeping and maintaining quallity dogs for the rest of us to out cross on.

Craig,, thats because we are all in the same boat.. Like I said, there comes a time when we are all forced to  look outside our line of dogs for a good outcross.. I reckon those of us who are trying to basically do the same things should get real particular where we look for those dogs.. Like kind from folks with like mind with a proven line of the right kind of dogs that suit us. That dont mean the cross will always work like you want it to but if it was easy Good un's would be everywhere and we'd could quit breeding and just buy pups and not do all this work to do what it takes to get there and then the hardest part comes...  keepin it going..For us, the list of folks I'd work with is real dang short. I have hunted with about every major line of these dogs that's out there and sadly.. 95% of em , outside of the occasional good dog, they fall way short in my opinon, it's become $$$ and a PR game with to many.

Chance just thank goodness you have dogs that you can choose to do either and/or both. That is breeding, brains and ability through years of proving them and selection... Your right, the more handle on these dogs the shorter you can make em if you so choose..The other side of that is, I  have found a lot of folks dont know how to get a cur dog to going  yonder and think that all cur dogs hunt short or they got a dud when in reality, it's their lack of knowledge and knowhow hindering that.   If  you walk hunt or road them, they will hunt short, which is the case with many types of dogs. We choose to hunt freecasting most of the time or if we see a good track we may set our dogs down on a track and yes sir they get gone, go yonder and don't check back in as often as some dogs do, especially if they smell hogs. But, We can shortin them up by doing the same things you do with yours or by some other method...With the right kind of dogs a man should have option. Granted.. with times they way they are and places gettin smaller there are times it would help if they didnt get gone..But the way we use ours I probably be kicking some butts if they didnt get gone and go find hogs some dang were and be bayed when we find em..lol  But   I just thank the good lord they have what it takes to be able to  do either, I am sure you feel the same way about that..
Tell me something Chance, how do these fellers breed and continue to breed such good dogs with 4, 5 and 6 diffrent breeds of dogs on their yards??

yes sir, keeping it going is what seem to be the challange, i was lucky enough to start with some dogs that complimented each other and have continued to cross really well.    i have raised alot of pups and kept whole litters till a year old. that takes alot of time and $ to keep that many dogs but thats the only way i have found to make the best selection.    
     im working on % of blood on a particular dog from my line now and have about 6 yrs of breeding within my line to get the pups i have now that are 50% blood of that dog.(those are the pups waylon has and some of the pups in the pictures)  i always have a couple of different things going on in my breeding program to get dogs to fit individual jobs. and now i have the female from bear and ellie ,and a female from cowboy and smokey im raising to find an outcross that fits my dogs.  im looking forward to the next few years to see how that plays out for me.
   i have found its just like making cake you just keep changing small ingrediants along the way to hopefully get just what you want.  my problem is its just like my horses and cattle , im too picky and i keep crossing hoping to get that one that really stands out, and i have gotten a few of those but i always think it could be better.

Keep going fella's, we are soaking it all in, good info!

First off I want to make sure everyone understands I do not claim to be a super dog breeder!! I breed for me and could careless what everyone else thinks!!! But we all want to see are dogs make super dogs!! When you talk to any of these guys that are breeding like me they are thinking of the future so they don't loose what they got and maybe add alittle to their dogs!! When we are crossing in each others dogs we take a chance on looseing something we worked hard to keep but it has to be done and I could not think of better more knowledgeable guys to cross dogs with because in the end we are after the same goal!!! I could go BUY 5  finished dog for $5000 apiece and come out ahead VS what I got in breeding dogs!!!! I try to breed atleast 3 litters a year and would love to keep all of them because you don't know if you are giveing that super dog away that you worked so hard to get!!

Even though I beleave in breeding dogs I will say its not for everyone it takes lots of time and lots of want to to get it done!!!

I set back years ago and one of the guys I Idiollized as a kid would preach to me about breeding and gentics when I got my own dogs from him my head got big because I had a good set off dogs and would go smoke just about anybody that had dogs!! I started makeing crosses like Plott over cur -Mt cur over cur - just about any hound over cur  I had around 40 dogs I hunted everyday there were times that I would leave my horse saddled and feed him in the trailer!! I was selling hogs and makeing a liveing doing it averageing $1300 aweek plus breaking colts for people!!!! I had the best set of dogs you ever seen!! This man came to my house to visit when he would come visit he would stay all day and talk dogs - horses- and cows!!! My house was open to him at all times we were close!!!He showed up and walked around my yard you could tell he was ready to kill me he did not say nothing and said he had to go my wife ask what was wrong with him I said don't know but I caught the tension he put off!! So I called him that night and ask what he was pissed about all he said was what in the hell are you doing over there!! He ask me what are the best dogs on your place I said the one that came from him that were line breed!! He got on me pretty hard and he was right all them crosses I made with the hounds I was not getting but one  or two that were decent and the linebreed dogs were smokeing them!!! That became the cold hardest day of my life I went from 40 to seven in about an hour!! That is when I stuck to a plain and it has worked ever since for me!!! I like what I got and maybe my kids can keep them going for years to come!!! Even if we loose all our rights they will keep one of these yeller dog to kick in the arse!!

I'll admit..I'm probably the poorest dog trainer on the planet.  That's why I raise the dogs that I do, so that I don't have to be good.  I don't care how good a trainer or dog-man is, there's no way to ever overcome poor genetics.

I've personally never seen anyone "train" hunting drive (or brains for that matter) into a dog that wasn't bred and born with it.

i will have to agree with you on that Bryant, i can get one out from under my feet, but they just stay a little farther out in the bushes.

 as far as making one leave and go hunting, i can send them behind an old dog(that they know) and get most of them to go with the older dog , i keep sending them with the old dog and after a few hogs at the end of a long track the pups will stay hooked longer. every dog i have raised that leaves out and goes hunting was born with that drive, i just helped him learn how to use it..

on thing about me i may carry a fancy internet title  ;D, but i can take and welcome advice from others, when i get to smart to stop learning i will be in the ground.

Even though I beleave in breeding dogs I will say its not for everyone it takes lots of time and lots of want to to get it done!!!
x2 ;D

I couldn't agree with ya more there, I Have seen guys get into a really good line of dogs be it, hounds,bird dogs, cow dogs ( even good Hanc ock horses  ;) ) what ever and 5 years later there producing junk dogs and give the name of that line a bad rap.

I have a question for you and any of the other guys who have been in on this subject so far

Say you have this dog he or she is heavy line breed you cross him/her because you want to outcross to a dog that is like your in style/ability ect. same breed lets say BMC but no where can you trace the 2 together. how can you blend the 2 lines together without starting a genetic tornado that may not crop out the problems until 5-10 years later, or know that you wont blow all those years of work that has been done by close line breeding especialy when you don't have first hand knowledge of the aforementioned dogs parents, grandparents on the outcross you have chosen

I know if you line breed even inbreed you can begin to elimanate what you dont like out of the line of dogs but that  some people say they will loose some vigor and health issue's may come into play like small litters weak pups ect. if done for extremely long periods of time, but and I am asking here not saying I know this, How can you keep what you have and not gamble on looseing it when you outctoss to another line of dogs??? ???  The King Ranch Quater Horses, Cattle ect. were inbred until the type was made then keep close line breeding to keep it back in the old days ( Hired Hand ect ect.), when I bred my linebred Hanc ocks over a King Ranch mare the foals were nice but not true to form or style every time like the Hanc ocks were while we linebred them close. I rode the outcrosses but to me they were worthless to use for breeding in my hanc ock line for fear of the king ranch mares genes being dominant and loosing what I felt the Hanc ocks brought in thought they were both quaterhorses they just didn't blend like I thought they would and I don't wanna go through that again on dogs ???  (

I know I asked alot but there some questions I have been working in my mind along time and trying to get lots of opnions on so maybe you guys can help me out here

Sorry Craig I know we are getting of topic here but I don't want to pass up on the good info I am getting so far

I think that the easy answer is..... By immediately bringing the best pup from that outcross (theoretically 0 familial coefficient) back to your line.

Outcrossing is not just the act of bringing two unrelated dogs together, that is called random breeding. Outcrossing is the act of bringing two unrelated dogs, expressing similar attributes together with the intention of using the lower coefficient product to maintain the health and integrity of the line you started with.

Does that make sense?

Steve

Yeah steve it does & I undertand what your saying there but how many times can you outcross, lets say just for a number here oh.. in 10 years before you have added so much new blood that you really don't have the same dogs you started with. wouldn't you have to keep a string of inbred ones to breed your outcross back onto in order to keep that first set of genetics?? or at the least keep most of it ???

Let me further ramble by asking this, How are people getting the info like my dog is 39.75% Weatherfords Ben or what ever dog you like, I have seen dogs bred together who more followed there grandparent(s) then there sire or dam? so is that % stuff accurate or a sells pitch........................ One more thing then I'll try to shut up a while, If you started with dogs that had been outcrossed alot then to ME you can't say I have a line of dogs youjust have dog and you would have to linebreed very close or really to ME inbreed for a while to set a type or style before you can breed true with a very high % so when we start outcrossing how do we then not run the risk of blowing it all and having to regroup and start all over.. I hope I made that all clear enough to understand it?

Oh ya, the outcross does not become your new brood bitch or stud, it is brought back into your line once, usually very tightly. Then the best pup from that litter is again brought back into your original line again, so on and so forth. That way you are using that outcross to maintain your line, not in the creation of a new line. Then, say 5 generations down the line, you have a very high % of your own blood with only a hint of the outcross. In another, say 5 generations, you are at such a high familial coefficient that it is time to find another outcoss and start the same process over again.

You answered some of my questions while I was typing and didn't see your post until I had typed mine. When you keep bringing in those outcrosses you must be keeping some inbred original ones on the side correct or over time wouldn't you fade out your old blood a little bit at a time????

Absolutely, you have to keep your original line intact. That's why the guys who get it done right have 20 related line bred dogs and 1 or 2 outcross dogs in their yard. Ill try to draw up a diagram.

Steve

I get it now, thats what has been messing with me, thinking guys are just outcrossing on there seed stock if you will and not keeping some full linebred dogs off to the side. I have a good friend in his late 70's who has bred game chickens and has the same blood from when he was 14 and that is how he has done it with some variation of outcrossing in degrees but always keeping some full bloods around for vigor as he calls it. I was not sure if it worked the same with dogs. I still wonder how far away from your dogs does another dog have to be in order for it to work as an outcross, I would think a man would only want to go as far as needed away in order to cut down on his culling later on, would you agree?

Thanks alot and I would still like to see a diagram so I could go back over it all later on

Okay so here is an illustration. It has no application in real life because I didn't want to add uncles aunts, nieces, nephews, brothers or sisters into the equation. But, it does show how the % of your original blood increases over 3 very tight generations. Assume that Dog 1 is the dog you want to replicate. All the dogs from your line are designated with #s. The outcross bitch is Bitch A and her entire line is designated with alpha characters. Outcross 1 is your initial outcross and Line 1 and 2 symbolize the dilution of Bitch A back into your line.

(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/swilliams_010/outcrossdiagram.jpg)

I bet that's confusing as hell huh?

Kinda but I never said I was smart or anything either ;) but I get the point

montera
  what are you breeding back to Dog 2 and Bitch 1 to get your %

dog 2 gets bred to outcross 1 wich produced line 1.  and bitch 1 gets bred to line 1. i could be wrong but thats the way i read it. really good info guys

waylon,  here is how i figure to get the % of a particular dog say my Earl dog.     i bred Earl to Spider that produced Lady Bug 50 % Earl. i then bred Lady Bug back to Earl and produced Candy 75% Earl ..    okay,    then i have Jr  also out of Earl and spider i bred JR to saddie outcross dog,and produce Taz then breed Taz 25 % Earl  back to Candy 75% earl.   well each parent is 50 % of the eqation so 1/2 of 25 is 12.5   and 1/2 of 75 is 37.5  ..    so 37.5 plus 12.5 =  50 %   ,,  thats your pups linage by the way  and how i got to 50 % blood of Earl..     now my next plan is to breed one of those 50% earl pups back to a daughter of earl out of the same outcross gyp and continue to produce 50% Earl blood.    

this is the same thing that was done in the foundation horses to preserve a individual horse say  poco bueno..  

i could have told you that hancock - king ranch cross wouldnt work  thats like breeding one of my dogs to a poddle.  ;D  sorry im not a fan of hanckock horses,  i never have a headstall big enough for one of em either..

if dog 2 is bred back to outcross 1  those pups are only 25% of dog 1 unless dog 1 is in dog 2 pedegree some where else.

and if bitch 1 is bred back to line 1 pup then that pup is only 12.5 % of dog 1

 Not a fan of Hanc ocks :o :'( Craig up until now I only had good things to say about you, but no one's perfect :laugh: Just kidding to each his own, I used to only own Hanc ocks and Catahoula's, now I got yella dogs guess I might should try another horse line maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath there ;) Big heads and cold backs ain't true of all of'em. Glad to know about the background of my pups. Took the pig out today turned him loose and he went to my pond which is 100 yards from the house. Waited 20 mins let the pups out, they went right to his pen expecting to find him, when they didn't I walked them about 15 feet away from it where the pig took out and Able stuck it's track first with Adam right behind they made the short track to the pond, kinda bayed for a second when the pig broke they each had an ear. I was as proud as a Game rooster. Gotta let the pig have a month or 2 off and don't wanna burn my boy's out but there doing more at there age than some year old dogs I have owned before

Craig, you are absolutely correct. My goal was not the calculation of inbreeding coefficient, it was just to illustrate the application of outcross. I just made up some big numbers to show that each generation diluted the outcross and became more homogeneous to your original line.

I guess that I did really state the whole % of Dog 1 incorrectly though, I was really illustrating the % blood from your original line in comparison to the outcross bitch.

Craig,

I see and understand your breedings, but I have a few questions.

1. The reason for  your line breedings is to reproduce Earl, correct?

2. When you outcross to Sadie, you are introducing a line bred female that has the same characteristics that Earl has or.. what you are looking for, correct?  (The most important factor here is the outcross being the "RIGHT" linebred female)

Jerryg

waylon
   i did have one good han kok  , i think it was a mistake though.  just kidding , i know alot of people ride them and love em..

monteria
  i read your post and agree with everything that graph just thru me.. i see what your saying.

jerryg
 yes sir the earl dog is what im reproducing..   the saddie dog is unrelated but out of a good family of dogs(Bo Nutting dog) that i hunted and proved before i used her as an out cross gyp and yes i have hunted those pups before i used them for my line, i was lucky enough to find a gyp that fit my dogs really well and has proven to work with out adding or taking away anything.. i would have to say she was the right gyp for my dogs.

my dogs orignate from 3 dogs: Earl ,Spider and Saddie ,i kept the saddie dog until i got enough pups out of her and then sold her to make room for linebred dogs.

Let me try to dig a little deeper on this as I woke up in the middleof the night with all this running through my mind!

Craig wrote: now my next plan is to breed one of those 50% earl pups back to a daughter of earl out of the same outcross gyp and continue to produce 50% Earl blood.
 
Monteria wrote concerning keeping a line/inbred line going off to the side:   you have to keep your original line intact

Ok here is my questions then:


Craig is there a reason you ended up keepeing just the 50% mark and not 75% or so. I am trying to wrap this all up in my mind. Is 50% all you thought could safely keep or what. If Earl is what you were trying to reproduce could you have just bred him to a daughter, then granddaughter, even Great graddaughter ect. so long as you culled any defects of sorts that bubbled up so to speak, then once you have that product outcross to say cousins or whatever you felt was just far enough out as to not bring in a complete new line? or do you think that is to tight ???  If what Monteria said and I can't see anyway around doing that, is correct do you keep straight earl bred dogs off to the side to maintain his original blood? and a line of slightly outcrossed dogs as well??? This is good stuff and I am trying to pry out what I can while you guys are talking,A big thanks by the way ;D

waylon,   i made that farther daughter cross and waited to see how it turned out , i produced candy and she proved to be a great dog ,i had to cull a few of that litter, they just didnt turn out like i wanted.  by the time i had proven those dogs earl had gotten killed and candy was the only high % of blood i had to work with so 50% is as good as i can get, unless i can cross back on candy in the future.     i dont think i would have kept breeding father to daughter and back to grand daughter  like you had mentioned that is just getting to tight in my opinion.    i like to bred cousins ,aunts, uncles  and 1/2 bloods back.  with 50 % of blood its as close to getting a pup out of the old dog as i can get.  there where 10 pups in that 50 % litter, and if i keep track of them and breed back to the daughters and sons i have now, i can keep that 50 % alive for a long time..

Ok well if there all doing as good as mine for there age @ 50% blood I would have loved to seen 100% in action. Thanks for the info

Man I leave for 5 or 6 days and all this is what I come back too!!!!! ;D ;D No these guy got it figured out that is why I wanted to breed to there dogs!! You can tell that Bryant and Steve have done there home work and have a plan there selfs!!! Steve just breeds them oh sorry Blue Laceys!!! ;D ;D That was a joke even though there about like them Han Kok horses you find 1 goodin every now and then!!! ;D Sorry Steve had to say that!! Most Hancok horse's are blue like your dogs!!!

Every dog on my place are tight breed exept for 2 one of Craigs and One of Coonasscurs dogs!!! I will not cross the Coonasscurs dogs into mine she is a good dog but just don't fit!!! I got her for a cross but it ain't going to happen!!!

good morning ETHD.

for those of you out there who strive to be dog men, instead of solely hog doggers, there is a wealth of valuable information in the pages of this post. ihope some of you young cats can dig thru here and gain some wisdom from these elder dog men who i have grown to idolize.

have a great day yall.

I have a female of the 75 percent earl dog , from taz and candy , I didn't realize she was so high in percentage , I also own candy , I actually gave taz away because all he wanted to do is screw my all female pack lol , clay mindiman if I spelled correct got him , but roxy is really turning out to be something special , it's a great line of dogs that Craig has strived to perfect , I'm just a proud owner of a few of them

An update on these pups would be great....They'd be coming up to 4 years old in April....

I own candy she still is top notch , Waylon's pups have both been killed , I have a female from taz and candy , she is coming on , we have got 21 hogs in the last two hunts with her and candy and another Loftin bloodline dog Sally , she's also out of earl but 11 yrs old , still getting it done , the last breeding was to JR AND CANDY, I have one female maybe two months old , Craig has two males , and I have dispersed two more males two friends , these dogs seem slow to mature but if you have patients and hogs they will soon turn on to be great ,they all roll out on command ,loose baying unless you hunt a big group , which I like , med range but on a track will go forever , 12 miles two weeks ago , I just can't say enough about how proud I am of these dogs , it will be memories to last a lifetime , I was a lucky man to aquire such a great pack of dogs

Here is roxy , the 75 percent earl breeding , roxy is the yellow dog towards the hogs head

(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z413/bobscoggins/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-12/9B2F8AFF-71D5-4DB1-B3E5-E6424102D1D1.jpg) (http://s1188.photobucket.com/user/bobscoggins/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-12/9B2F8AFF-71D5-4DB1-B3E5-E6424102D1D1.jpg.html)

Here's the next linebred generation from Craig's JR DOG and my CANDY dog

(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z413/bobscoggins/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-11/01FA1CF0-B483-49DF-9015-2398BA7D1434.jpg) (http://s1188.photobucket.com/user/bobscoggins/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-11/01FA1CF0-B483-49DF-9015-2398BA7D1434.jpg.html)