EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

How much is it??     Does the hunter make the dog  ??   or is it all blood lines  Iv seen a hunter here he is now 70 plus that could take a rubbish dog and make him an ace over an over if the dogs were with him you knew they were top shelf  he tells me 70 \30 man over dog     My thinking is 60\40 man over dog

my opinion is 50/50 cause i believe you can turn a dog into a good dog for sure but takes blood and sense to make a jam up dog that's why their so rare to find i have heard of folks who could train any dog but how good would that dog actually be

I will say a dog either has "it" or it doesn't....... The person is the one who has to take the dog..... so you can have the best bred hog dog in the world....if the person doesn't take it hunting......well then you just have a dog food vacuum.......  ;D

So is that 50/50 Pecos. You cant have one without the other.

I have seen men break a dog and I have seen them make a dog. But I have seen the breaking more. A good dog can be turned into trash real quick. A good trainer finds what works on most dogs. A great trainer finds what works for each dog. That does not mean that they work miracles. Like a little league coach they should help those that want to play play their best. But the great coach gets the kids that don't want to play want to play. They may not be any good but at least get em off the bench. Then find out if they can play. But a bad coach can mess up a big league player. It is about seeing and developing the talent. So if you are a so so. Coach you need the best players. Do not confuse what I am saying, a great coach with great players will win the world series.

I think that the over/under really depends on the particular dog and person. You are correct in stating that you can't have one without the other, but you can have a really good dog and a real new owner and the dog still be an awesome dog or get messed up...... or you can have a mediocre dog and a good owner and the dog be real good or get messed up........ or sometimes you can have both that are really new or just not any good..... you can see how many variable there are to this equation so I don't think there is an exact number that is a cookie cutter percentage........  ;D

I see guys that call them selfs hunters every week end they go out they even catch hogs   BUT BY NO MEANS are they hunters  A true hunter knows how to bring out the best in his dogs so with out this your dog is only average at best   NOT excluding the natural supper dogs witch you will argue comes from breeding but they are few and far between So  I believe  with out the hunter it would be rare to find a supper dog in the hands of a wanta be hunter    NO HUNTER NO SUPPER DOG

I don't know which one it is, but i'll take natural dogs every time. I am to the point in my life now that if the dogs dont do it own there own for the most part then i'll find different dogs. Life is to short to work a dog that was not born with it. My hats off to all the good dog trainers, i'm just not one of them I guess

So let me understand  what you are saying here...Just because some of us work and are only able to hunt on the weekends...we are not TRUE Hunters?  Cant go making such bold statements..or maybe you can but don't make it true.  I would say that it doesnt take much of a dog to bay/catch a hog...just about any four legged canine will do that but it does take  more of a dog and helps to have breeding and proven bloodline to make a good strike dog and yes the hunter and how he uses the dog will make the difference if the dog ever turns PRO if you want to call it that.   We are only able to get out on Saturdays due to jobs and land availability but hold our own and pull hogs most times out.. percentage has gone way up this year.. that could be we are hunting better ground with more hogs or better dogs...thing is we are still hunting the same dogs so i would say the dogs are finishing out and the young dogs are stepping up...

Not at all!!!      Many ture hunters are stuck in the world    It has nothing to do with how many times you get to hunt



And Im a week end hunter you can only hunt sat sun mon on Kauai

A dog is built by its enviorment and what it is exposed to within its critical and moldable period and then its Behavioral conformation comes into play as far as how its functional motor paterns are wired or arranged. This why it is unlikely that 2 dogs will be exactly the same, No 2 dogs can occupy the same exact space at the same time causing their enviorments to differ.  It heavily depends on the human to put the dog in the desireable mode in order for the dog to accel within this enviorment. You can teach ANY dog to do ANY "trick" as long as it is not against the dogs Physical Conformation (Such as a dachsund trying to enter a weight pulling contest).

I will say the percentage  of human influence is very high!

here's how im seein this topic take it like baseball so many ppl want to be pro player and they can practice day in and out but if they don't have it they don't have it not sayin they don't get good just that they aren't good enough to go pro

Hog doggers pack is just like a baseball team, you have your coach (the hunter) you have your hog ( the batter) you have your strike dog ( the starting pitcher) you have you help dogs ( the fielders) and you have you cd ( the closing pitcher)
takin it as baseball from a baseball player (me) lets take a pitcher for example, first you either have talent or you dont not everyone throws 90+ mph, a dog either has game or it doesnt in my opinion if a dog doesnt have game then he doesnt get the time of day to see if he is gonna make a hand or not, then you have your coach who teaches you how to use your talent and throw strikes and fixes mechanics just like you have a hunter who trash breaks his dogs so on and so forth, then you have repetitive practice (bullpens) just like you have bay pens to let your dogs practice baying hogs. But what it really comes down to is game experience and this is where it really counts. without game experience you will never be what you can really be, just like a dog has to be hunted repetitivly to reach their full potential. A guy who throws 90 mph with alot of game experience is going to be a better pitcher than a guy who throws 95 mph with little game experience, just like a dog with average blood lines with lots of hogs under his belt is gonna be better than a dog with good blood with fewer hogs, because he has seen what hogs do and knows what to expect and can almost predict what the hog is thinking and what the hog is going to do.
So all that being said in my opinion it is more on the hunter than it is on the dog, i would go with 60/40.

I will agree a little with what everyone is saying here. There are hunters/trainers out there that can make a good dog a better dog just like horse trainers and horses.
Good trainers in anything will start out with the best bred animals they can come by to start with though.

I will say one thing about really good hog dogs. In my opinion, you will really have to try hard to screw up one that is going to be a good one.
I have seen hog hunters that didnt have a clue about training a good dog or didnt even try to train a dog and still end up with a good dog or two just because of the dog!
Sure these dogs could have been better with proper training but they were still dang good dogs even though their trainers where clueless!

there's an old saying  you can't  get  blood  from a  turnip ....... its  true .....each  dog  has a  potential peak ....... depending  on how  he  is  hunted will determine  how  it  developes ....... usually takes  someone  that  has experince  in  training dogs to  peak a  dog ......get the  max .....


sometimes  you  can  just  let a  dog  develope  on his  own  if  he has  enuff hunt to  him  or  her ....if  not  you  may  have  to  do  alittle  training ......


it  all  boils  down  to  the  dog  in  ?    as  to  wether  more  training  is  required  or  just takeing  to  the  woods ....

I think Mr Parker sums it up pretty good with this statement. It just depends on the dog.

I think most of you guys think way to highly of yourselves.  Either the dog has it or he doesn't.  Why waste time, money and energy on one that doesn't?  Take the dog to the woods (where hogs can be found) on a consistant basis and not over hunt him and he will either make it or he want.  Training a hog dog is not difficult it just takes patience and consistancy.  Last, if your dog doesn't make the cut don't sell him as a finished dog, be honest with yourself as well as others.  

 ??? Most? Maybe Im reading things wrong but from what I can tell "most" are giving the higher % to the dogs credit in this thread so far.

Sure cant argue with the rest of your statement though.

With the exception of a few handlers,  just not messing a dog up and leaving them alone is all it takes to make a dog work who has it. An old saying is "that dog wont hunt" you cant turn a whore into a house wife. The dog wants to hunt or not weather it does it for you or itself breeding sure helps hunt, bottom etc. or every dog a certain person owned from the pound would be GREAT and that just i not the case.

Interesting thread. I agree with most posts, the dog has to have it inside, to make a good dog, no matter who owns it. But, a better trainer/handler can bring out the potential better than a poor trainer/handler. And trainers/handlers have ruined a train load of dogs by lack of knowledge/experience.

I once got a pup from someone who supposedly had good dogs. Silent, cold nosed, medium range dogs that would stay bayed all night. Well, I am always looking for something better than what I am hunting so I had to have one. I had a litter of my own at the same time, of which I kept two pups. I raised the outside pup with the two I bred. Same kennels, same feed, handled the same, started the same, hunted the same. I fed the new dog two YEARS and it never barked at a hog...not once.  It wasn't afraid of the hogs, would follow you to a bay and stand there and wag its tail like it was happy your other dogs caught the hog. By other dogs I mean the two pups I bred that were the same age as this dog...........

So it wasn't the trainer or environment, it was the dog that was lacking in this case. It just didn't have the desire to hunt/bay. It wouldn't even run a hog that you turned out on with the dog looking at it. Needless to say that dog/blood is no longer on my yard...........

But on the other hand I would bet I could take the best hog dog on this board and in less than a month, break it off hogs entirely..........not that I would want to, but just an example of the influence a trainer/handler could have on a dog.

I wouldn't say just because I give the hunter more credit than the dog I think too highly of myself. I can see if a dog has hunt or potential and I can break them off cow and horses but I don't truly know how to fine tune a dog into a huntin machine that I want nor do I have the time to. That is why I send a dog to mr mason. If I thought it was all the dog I would not spend the money and time to drive a dog six hours away to have them finely tuned. Mr mason can do more with a dog in a month with a dog than I can in a year. I'm don't disagree that a dog has to have hunt to start with, but I won't buy a dog that doesn't have hunt in the first place. It's the same with horses. I can green break a horse but if I want a horse to be finished I leave that to the professionals. Most horse trainers don't have horses with good blood lines and what not, the people they train for do, unless they are the rare exception with a ton of money.

I agree crackerc, although I think more handlers mess up dogs than help them. Patiance is a virtue, I see so many people expecting to much out of pups. If people would just be quiet, patiant, and let there pack do the teaching not them or just cull when necessarry
 

Go back and look up the pedigree on some of those pro ball players and most of them have had someone play in college or the bigs.  ;) ;)

that's what im sayin coach lol

How far are we looking back? Until they were wild and hungry scavengers?

The reason ball players like "champion" bloodlines are more prone to success is due to this exact thought, The parents raise the child in this enviorment and give him the neccessary tools to succeed within. Due to its blood the dog from Parents A will be brought up in a more enriched enviorment compared to the pound puppy who "could have a chance".

look at all the folks who put out thousands to get their kid to go pro and not make the cut they have the opportunity and privileges and don't make it explain that to me im not arguin that they won't get good just that there is a big gap between good and jam up plus i stated earlier i think its 50/50 one the dog that has the potential to be good then second the person who lets the dog release it... i have a dog right now that i would like to see someone train if they could get it done then i will pay and send all my dogs to them and retract all my statements and give the hunter more credit to this topic i know what your sayin and your correct the hunter has to give the dog the opportunity but the dog also has to want to be there that is why i say its 50 50 

I say 80/20 dog it's easy to train a dog to find pigs, if the dog has game.  Bottom line start with a gamie dog and hunt him often with finished dogs that hunt your style and make sure you hunt them where the pigs are.

You can't "make" a dog hunt or "train" a dog to hunt... the hunting drive is either in them or it isn't. All we can do is expose them and refine their skills. ;)

Like the ole sayin, You cant turn a jackass into a quarterhorse.... Well the majority of hog dogs have it in their blood when they are born..It does however take a man to hunt the pup from day one with other good strike dogs to get the puppy headed in the right direction...In my personal opinion the dog handler or hunter can put the handle on the dog but cant hardly put the hunt in the dog if it aint already there.  But I can also say that I can take a weenee dog in a area that has tons of hogs and make that dog shine like a new dime, but its when you have a dog that will make a hog in areas where there are hardly any there, thats when you know you have a one of a kind HOG DOG

Today I went hunting got a nice boar coming out I ran into the man I was speaking of in the beginning of this discussion and we sat down and talked remember this man is an elder around here 74 years young he told me he has been hunting since the late 40s still walk hunts O ya he had a boar on his 43 willies three dogs you would Laugh at if you dident know who he was  mix match I asked him what they were  hummmmmm this one cocker shepherd a little lab and the dog from next door poodle x this is what he said Im not joking when I looked at the boar he was a monster you could see old dog bites on him so you know some one else had failed to stop him his dogs were cut not bad he said he never had a blood line dog in his life A guy named  Carswell from Texas  brought in cattle and the bmc and some cats this was in the 70s those two blood lines run in most of our lines today even mine but for him all dog pound  he stills says 70\30 man over dog  he said the only dogs he ever had were dogs nobody wanted and its a know fact around here nobody has slammed more boars than the old man with his dog pound dogs

Thats interesting hog428 and you cant dis-credit and old dog man walk hunting and getting it done at that age! He is probably the exception like mr mason, my guess is they can hunt more than me as well. I just see my friend bob line breed curs and rarely hunt them b/c of his job but his dogs look like pro's there 1st time in the woods so my opinion is the dog cant be taught to hunt its in them....however we can help them hunt better, and there are obvious exceptional dog men who can train dogs but the "mr mason's" are not the avg.  Just my.02 I think more handlers mess up dogs. Good topic

Like I said at the begining of my post, the dog either has it or he doesn't. Just like a person either has a 90 + fastball or they don't. But there is alot more 90+ arms that don't make it to the bigs due to bad coachin or injuries than the ones who make it. I never denied that you have to have raw talent to start with, but in my opinion there is alot more to it than that.

That about sums it up right there. 

I've often wondered when people talk about "training" a hog hunting dog just what they mean?  All I've ever done is take good bred stock to the woods and give them the opportunity to train THEMSELVES.  Dogs learn by working with one another, by repetition and by their own mistakes and other than needing a ride to the woods, none of that really involves me.

I think most "training" people think they're doing with their dogs is more hindering than anything else.  Now let me also say that I will agree that handle and trashbreaking can take a human hand but to me thats all secondary.  I want to see some hunt first and if the dog won't hunt, why bother with the rest?

I agree.

I lean more towards blood line but I know for a fact! that if the old man was in tour neck of the woods he would be putting the wood to your boars with his dog pound dogs I think he see's the dogs need to please and works off of that    jmo

Some folks are born with a gift of being able to get animals to give them all they have to give. If they keep good bred dogs, hunt hard and cuul hard, they seem to allways hunt outstanding dogs. Thenthere is the guy that couldn't train a lion to eat raw meat. HE could take the first guys best dog and hunt him a couple of months and have him looking pretty average.

This is the bottom line in my book and something I learned as a kid hunting beagles. If a dog wont hunt I cant be bothered with it because I have never been able to make a dog hunt.

I agree that handle is what you train. Not hunt. Handle has to be trained for control if nothing else. Especially in some of the places we have to hunt our dogs these days.
A good bread dog that can find a hog as good as any out there can sure make a hunt suck for a whole lot of reasons if you cant control it.

I agree with crackerc. I raised three littermates at the same exact time, worked all three together and got them on hogs together. Two turned out real good, rolled out on there on and became independent on there on. The other one, I kept taking and putting on hogs and she just (so far) aint making what I like to see in a dog.
Don't get me wrong I don't think you can turn a dog out and set on the tail gate and drink a beer and make a dog (until after they make) the hunter in my opion has got to get down in the woods, creeks etc. and get a dog started in the right way, but whether the dog is going to pick up on the game and run with it is up to the dog.

I think its 50/50.

50% breeding, and 50% me not do iting it up!  ;D

Steve

Get a good pup and give it to me. I will find a way to mess it up.


Bryant- Dont you drag hogs for your pups? Or let them bay at one in a pen?

Yep..and thats sometimes my way of providing them a expedited way to naturally develop.  If I could guarantee my pups a hog right out of the box each hunt, then I would have no need to run mock hunts.  I like quick action and don't like young pups getting bored.

The pen is only used to check interest and very sparingly used at that.  A (woods) dog can develop bad habits by being overworked in a pen, and especially a small wooded type pen where the dog knows there's a hog and will start trying to hunt by sight.