EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

i looking through some of the for sale ads(i seeing pics of hog dogs) and it kinda crossed my mind that i see a lot of crosses off of cats to catch dogs(cat/ab, cat/dogo, cat/pit, ect), but on the other hand the only other cur dog cross that i see a decent amount of is bmc/pit. i know there are other crosses out there(lacy/dogo comes to mind), but you don't see it a lot. you see a lot of the cat to catchdog crosses..why is that?

i have a dogo/bmc that is a pretty good dog, decent speed, winds really well, could have better stamina, will catch small hogs. she is damn good looking dog as well...just would like your opinions on why we seem to cross cats to catchdog breeds more than other cur dogs to the catchdog breeds...just a discussion starter....

From what I've seen of the catahoula's, the majority are very good bay dogs with good size so it makes sense to me as to why a lot hog hunters make this cross.

Personally, If I were to make a cross for more catch in my strike dogs I would use a larger line of hard hunting mtn curs with a longer legged type of pit bull and breed down to 1/4 pit bull. The well bred mtn curs have a lot of grit, hunt and nose so this should make a good cross. Like any outcross, the trick is to pick the right pups because there will be a lot of variation in any outcross.

Tha best cd I ever owned was a 50 lb cat x pit.  The cat adds wind, bottom, nose and handle. If you notice the cats are the grittiest of all the curs.  That is why.

If they are the grittiest of all the curs then why are you adding bull blood to them?
For RCD's?

i think i've heard of more bmc's that are rough than cats that are..understand i'm neither a cat nor a bmc guy..i'm just a hog dog guy..lol. i think your bmc's can add a lot of the same traits as a cat..just seems that people are more willing to put a cat over a catchdog than a bmc, just seems odd...

leonriver i think you make some really good points..i just think that bmc's are just as rough and add many of the same traits...scf i think being gritty is just more of a willingness to lay teeth, whereas rough is getting in there and latching on to an ear. i think it is safe to say that most of our bay dogs have a willingness to lay teeth to stop or spin a hog, but not a lot have that desire to get in there and latch on to an ear and go for a ride..lol...i know my pure bmc will lay teeth but she dang sure will not grab an ear, even after teh catchdog hits...now my bmc/dogo she will lay teeth AND she will latch on to an ear if the mood strikes her..lol..and she normally catches soon as the catchdog gets there...

 I dont know anything about dog breeding but I think WAY TOO many people put too much stock in breeds instead of the dog itself. And 90% of people prolly shouldnt be breeding to begin with. But hey, it sounds cool to have a breeding "program".

The bull adds a lock down mouth most 100% curs will not break stick lock down on the catch.  You can use this cross as rcds and lead in cds.  This cross really works.  I'm a bmc man and my next cross is going to be a ybmc x pit.  This will produce all kinds of catch dogs.  Generally the cats are rougher than bmcs.

makes plenty of sense...why bmc/pit...why not bmc/dogo or bmc/ab...people will put a cat with a catchdog in a new york min..but are very reserved when using their bmc's why is that?

cantex you are right many people have no business breeding dogs..but sometimes those novices produce some of the best dogs...lol

I think alot of them are acidents, OOOOPs! catch dog got with the strike dog........and then U say "I meant to do that", atleast last time it happend to me, I did ^-^!

Seriously, I usually keep something from those accidents, just to see what they turn up as, and have been fortunate! I also believe my good fortune, helps that the dogs on the yard that got together are always good dogs in their own right, if I don't keep junk from the start, well then when the accidents happen, they atleast have the genetics to be good.

i cross a 1/2 bmc 1/2 cat to a full plott and man is he tuff long legs good nose and lots of drive he will get out and find one and stay with it all night if i let him

To me the ultimate catch dog is the APBT. There are many variations in this breed. You can find a style you like in this breed and stick with it. A friend of mine once told me that any time you cross some breed in to the pit that you are watering down the Pit bull.

I have seen lots of curs that are very gritty that are killed before a year old but they only lacked in jaw power. The ones that make it have a certain amount of luck on their side and they finally learn to protect themselves.

If you use this RCD it needs to be fully vested because it is not if but when will it be killed. If the strike dogs are gritty, the RCD's will put more fight in the pack and this will get more dogs injured. You will probably catch more pigs as long as the dogs are healthy... Strictly my opinions.

I can't say I agree cats are the grittiest but then again a lot of older line cats do have a blocky head and not saying a that is everything but it does help will agree mtn curs are allfull rough

Well Years ago a friend of mine had a 3/4 pit 1/4 cat give to him we have breed that dog back to  pit and back to pit to where there is no cat left in them but the lepoard coloring stays on the pups!!

I have been hunting along time and thank god I have never had to make any of those cross's to try and find a super dog to fit me!!
I think alot of people start out with a plain to try and get just the right amout of dog in them that they want!! What I have seen over the years of makeing these cross's they are never acruate some pups catch some are just hide pullers some are loose!!

I agree with Ugly Dog  I think most are mistake breedings!!!!

There is no way I would ever tie one of my good cur dog Gyps up to a dang bull dog!! If there was a mistake I asure you the pups would NEVER make it to the dog trade!!!

If I am going to breed a catch dog I will go with something as solid as the Bitch !! AB X AB - Pit X Pit - Dogo X Dogo  or Catch X Catch!!
Never Strike X Catch !!!

They have 2 differnt jobs!!

When I am breeding catch dogs I will look for lung - speed- handle before I look for catch!! Because when I make a catch dog cross I know for a fact they will catch I just need to add lung-Speed -handle to it!!

Useing a catch dog now that I have been useing all summer in daylight hours that does not get hot and can go for hours with out warter!! Loveing him!! He is one we breed!! He has probally caught 40 hogs this summer all during the heat of the day!!

I also look for a dog that does not pant much always got his tung in his mouth!!

Then some people don't have the heart to do away with a mistake cross!! So they end up on the dog trade and if that don't work then they end up at Walmart usally there wife and she is telly everyone they are out of hog dogs!! When I here it just makes me want to get the whole litter and do something no one else had the heart to do!!! The subdivion down the road from me is full of them most have mange and the other just roam free!! I think I know a few Boys that pick them up out of that Subdivion at around a year old and start them in a pen then post them on the dog trade here!! Just can't figure out where they get all these dogs from they always got them forsale and I never see them hunt!!  Finished Dogs if you know what I mean!! ;)

alot of crosses are folks trying to reproduce a dog they once had or produce one like so and so had.
i like 3/4 cat 1/4 bulldog . the cats have more get gone then other curs i have had and blend well with bulldog blood

Im going to do soming here that might get me kicked of this board but some people need to know what Cward is talking about. Here is the best female BMC that I have ever raised. I can run her on cattle or hogs. She has more heart and drive than any dog I have. She got cut up like this because of a catchdog not doing his job. She is staight cur and she will lock down on a hog just like a catchdog. This is my goal to get dogs just like this one. She will bay a hog till you get there with a cathdog. But when the catchdog is turned lose she is gong in. By the way I dont own a catchdog but after this Im getting one.She did have a cut collar on.And like I said Cward knows what he is talking about and I have never met the man.

We have a litter on the ground right now that are 1/2 cat  1/2 pit.. It's the first time I've made the cross and I can tell you why I did it, because I don't like running hogs.. ;)

Well Rocking P, if your made to take the pictures down then so be it, but it was probably a lesson learned on your part and the dogs part, and that kind of thing is part of the sport, and the pictures at least show you did your part and gave the dog the best kind of care possible, and nobody can deny you that...but as you said earlier, a dog that can handle on cows and hogs, and knows when to catch and when to bay, is just about what everyone is aiming for in a dog, brains and handle...they go hand in hand. ;)

Check out the username, Wateverworks.  That is my boys username and I find that I agree with him, different terrain, vegitation, temperatures, etc all should play a role in how you choose wateverworks for you.  My son has grain fields available to hunt, need to find'em and shut'em down.  I've seen all sorts of dogs used to get this type of hunting done.  I like mountain curr x AB, cat x AB, probably because I've done it and it worked, these dogs could hunt and shut one down, we still carried an extra AB or two just for insurance.  I have had YBMC that could hunt and would catch as soon as I told them to catch, might be just enough time to leg one, I've had hound x ybmc that would only stop a hog and then only bay, when you got there you better catch her or she was leaving town to go find another.  The dogs my son has now they are'nt going anywhere, they will try to eat the dead hog as long as they can get to him.  Good topic though, enjoy reading what others are doing.

Rockin P, If I were to cross something besides MTN CUR to my Gyp It would be to something related to your gyp. She looks good and the grit is there...

Chance, how can you breed out the cat? Won't it be there no matter what? Especially if you are line breeding that bulldog .  I might be thinking about someone else but didn't that bulldog blood come from your grandpa?

cantex i was thinking the same thing...but i remember on a post a while back they explained what they did...they basically bred the 1/2 and  1/2 to only pits, whenever they got pups that had the catahoula color they bred them to other pits, and they continued that process. so basically they have bred down the cat(its still there, just in such a small dosage that it's almost insignificant....but it is still there).

this is turning into a very good discussion..keep it going...uglydog i think are very right a lot of times they are accidental breedings, but why is there more "accidental" breedings with cats and catch dogs than bmcs and catchdogs..i would like to know why mr. mason chose to cross the dogo and the cat to make his catdo's..now i know he is cat guy, but why not try the bmc he had access to some darn good bmcs when he first started making those crosses.

my personal opinion is that the cat gets used because there will be some good coloring in the pups. when you use a bmc the colors normally aren't very large...black, brindle, yella, and some reds..lol..throw a cat in the mix and there is no telling what you will get..lol

Speaking from exp in genetics, most people who run catchdogs arent people that fool much with genetics in dogs. The opinion is that catchdogs are easy to get. That would depend on the definition of what a catchdog is. I know alot of people will run dogs that will catch anywhere and thats fine for them mabe, but not everyone wants to be sewing up dogs or replacing them as often. Also people will credit pits as dogs that will catch day in and day out, but not many apply how they are bred to get that phenomenon. They are linebred, not bred to everything under the sun. Cats are what they are b/c what? Linebreeding, however this concept is lost when it comes to bulldogs. Bulldogs were once a breed, thats why they blast thru what they are bred to, but just like breeding a pit to something you lose something in the process. You might make good f1 crosses, meaning 1st generation, but after that the effects wear off. Thats why people consider a 3/4 bulldog 1/4 cat worthless. Even gamedog men who have run true gambred pits for years will say a true pit isn't good for catch work, they will grab anything they can get a hold of which may not be the smartest thing to do. I know most may think you just need the right mix, but how many dogs does one go through before getting that? Im willing to bet the purebred style go thru less. If they didnt you wouldnt have 30 year line curs, pure bred cats, BMCs, Blue lacys or pits. No offense to anyone here, I kno there is alot of exp on this board, but Im sure everyone on here has run into a situation where just b/c one has been doing something longer doesnt mean they are doing it perfectly, there is always room for improvement.

This line of dogs came from a hunting buddy!! They are not line breed we just kept breeding them to pit x pit and the lepoard coloring comes in half of every litter!! We just are very selective on what kind of pit we cross them to!!! We  have never line breed any of them but it has crossed my mind!! Just not going to keep a yard full of catch dogs to breed! My hunting buddy keeps 2 lepoard pit gyps and when I want a pup I find the right male dog to breed her too!! I have 2 lepoards on my yard for catch dogs!!

Now all my cur dogs are line breed and came from my uncle!! Every cur on my place is related!!


The male I use is a great great  great gradson of the 3/4 pit  1/4 cat!! That Jermey started with!! Every cross after that was with pit!!

So yes the cat would be breed out of them!! Just the color stayed!!

Go to a Boar Gaot Breeder and ask him can he start out with a 50% Boar  and 50% whatever goat and in about 5 breedings back to a boar gaot they will have a 100 % Regstered Boar goat!! They have breed all the cross out of them!!!

If my dogs have any cat in them left I would like someone to break the percentage down for me and see what they come up with!!! The dog would come back as a 100% fullblood!! But not a 100% purebreed!! Some how there is a difference!!

How can a gene for color remain present in the phenotype, but other genes become supressed or non-existant?  I'm not so sure I agree.  Tightly linebreed those dogs, and you'll find the old dogs.  A thing known as throwbacks.  It happens all the time to people who think they have a couple of pure this or thats...breed them for a couple gererations them something odd pops out.

I've personally always wondered about the crosses as well.  The dogs each person desires are more than likely present in each breed, you just have to find them.  Bulldogs are the same as cur dogs...it's not as simple as breeding this dog to that dog and getting something right in between.

If I understood what you said Chance your dog is 96.875% Pit and 3.125% Cat. If you started with a 75% pit and 25% Cat and crossed 3 times with pure pit. If you keep crossing ou the pit it will eventually get down to fractions of a percent but I can figure that out for ya if you want. Let me know how many crosses were talking about, I had fun figuring that out!

i x breed my dogs the way i do becouse they work for me  got lots of grit

There again I said they will be a fullblood but not a purebreed!!!



trust me I have bought plenty of Boar gaots!!

A Purebreed on a goet farm will cost you lots of money!!
A fullblood will cost a little less that a purebreed!!
A percentage Goat will  be way cheaper!!

Crossing the dog the  way we did will make a fullblood but not a purebreed!! Bryant do you understand where I am coming from! I agree with what you are saying!! But makeing the pit cross constantly would put the dog back as a fullblood pit!!

i think allot of folks x breeds bc mainly lack of knowledge of genetics and because that's what to dogs they had and didn't think of all the factors going in to it and after all those are out of the way you have accidents then after that you have prob a 10 % of ppl who know what their doin take for example mr parker or any other ppl out there who have done a great job of producin consistent hog dogs they didn't go crossin a bunch of stuff together they found a dog that worked and lineBred it i guess what im sayin is most ppl can't answer this ? for the simple fact they just don't know in my opinion

This may rub a few the wrong way but I think to many people are breeding with to much focus on "breeds" and not on the physical and behavioral conformation of the dogs being produced.

Cward-I understood exactly what you were saying about purebred VS. Full blood but saw an oppurtunity to do some math and  enjoyed the oppurtunity.

In my opinion, there would be a heck of a lot better hog dogs in this world if everyone that ever tried to breed em had this philosophy!
Lucky crosses happen all the time but I personally don’t care about breeding dogs on just luck!!!
I tried it and it hardly ever worked for me!!!
Someone said it before me but I couldnt agree more. "Breeding good dogs aint like mixing paint".

Boarninja- Every purpose bred dog in history was bred by mixing dogs with different traits and then linebred to make those traits dominant.

I have to agree with Boarninja,

When producing working dogs one should strive to produce better dogs each successive generation. Crossing dogs is pretty much like starting over. You'll have no idea what you will get in successive generations, less predictablity. Thats why understanding genetics is important. Linebreeding increases predictability and gives one a better chance of selecting the right dogs to move forward with.   There is a bigger picture than just how breeds were created in the past.

Lots of good points on this discussion, like crib just said. It takes many years of line breeding to develop a strain and you get to a point where you are splitting hairs to get better dogs and then you get to a point that you need a touch of new blood added to the breeding program. The sensible thing to do is to find a dog that has at least 50% of your bloodline and the other 50% to be somewhat related and that dog needs to bring something to the program that is an enhancement to your dogs. This dog needs to be of high quality as well as its parents and these dogs should look and act, hunt like your dogs. This is so that you will gain from this breeding (hopefully). Also, If you are interested in a male pup to add to your program then you need to keep as many males from this cross that you can because if you are serious about improving your line, this is what you do. The reason is obvious. You want to cull those male pups over at least one year so that you wind up with the best possible choice for the breeding program. When you outcross a line that has been bred like this you will lose a lot of what has been bred for generations in that one outcross.

My vote is to keep them pure. Hunt the cur breed you like best to strike with and catch with your favorite catch breed.

When you cross a cur or hound with a catch dog your percentage of getting what you want will probably be somewhat low and very diversified. Then you will need to select the best from this and keep it going to increase the percentage of what you are looking for...

I agree with this 100% but that wasnt my point. ;)

I sincerely agree with both sides of this issue.  First the keep the breeds pure side:  I understand why this is done and agree with it, focus on the traits your after and stay with your line dogs.  But if I have curs and I want a pack of rcds that are not straight pit I am going to breed my grittiest cur to the most athletic cd I can find.  I will breed my own dogs because the best dogs I have owned I bred and raised myself and in the long run it's cheaper.  The last time I did this I got just what I wanted.  Some people will say this is luck but it's not it called hybrid vigor (f-1 cross).

Other people will say don't run rcds you just need better curs.  I love to bay up the hog and then send in the cd and for most hogs that works great.  But on the hogs that want stop for hell or high water the only way to stop them is with rcds.  Some people will say that there dogs will say with the running hog until they are stopped and if the hog tries to run they will chew his rear off and they may do this on some hogs but not all of them.  That's when you bring in the rcds.   If you have good stock they are going to produce good stock even if it's a cross.  I'm not afraid of crossing curs and pits it has work well for me in the past and I know it will continue to work for me.  That's not to say I want continue to breed pure ybmcs and pur pits.  I am making this cross for a particular reason to catch running boar hogs that refuse to stop. 

dont no what yall will think of this cross but its a ridgeback/dogo. my male rr will wind and bay a hog short range.. will catch with the cath dog and will stop a hog when running he is a azz grabber... the dogo is sure enough a catch dog and will be lead in... what yall think....

This is a good response, and I can understand fully your reasoning. I know of another hunter here who has a similar situation and does the same thing. This leads me to think that mabe there isn’t a solid pure bred RCD out there? Dogos are supposed to perform like that, my guess is they aren’t working out as a whole.

Thing is that hogs are gonna react whichever way, run or fight. Trying to change the dogs around to meet these different responses will have one chasing their tail forever. A person decides on one path for a certain behavior then the hogs get conditioned to behaving differently now one has to adjust breeding other stuff in to try and meet that.

Hogs are smart, so one has to outsmart them. How about adjusting the tactics rather than constantly crossbreeding?

One way I heard of people baiting them in around the trail cam so they get conditioned to the camera flash then spot lighting them and cut the dogs loose. This method is working so well they are catchin too many hogs and their dogs are getting cut down and killed. The hogs are pure or nearly pure eurasions too. This way one can have a pure bloodline of working dogs, both bay and catch dogs and the benefits of maintaining dogs that way.

Just a suggestion that came from hog hunters.

One thing about these two breeding processes (pure bred curs and cross bred rcds) are not mutually exclusive.  I currently have both breeding programs going, pure bred ybmcs and cur x bull for rcds.  The places I hunt I know how the hogs react to dogs and I hunt accordingly. 

As alot of people here know Iam a BMC man all the way. With all the different BMC breeds out there why would I want to breed to anything else. If I need to add new blood Im sure I could fine someone that would want to split a litter with me. How about you Mr BoarNinja.

Most purebred dogs came into existance from crossbreeding other pure bred dogs, such as the Dogo and have not been pure all that many years, as why there are so many "types". Ho w many generations does it take to make it a PureBreed or to invent a Pure Breed?

Way I understand it from talking to k9 geneticists the dogs have to be able to breed true to type. The dogs have to be able to throw themselves even in an outcross. If one can maintain a tight bloodline of a certain type of dog, thats how it begins.

BTW great thread, very good responses from everyone ;)

Ugly Dog- If we started off with a "pure" Catahoula and X it with a "pure" pit and then perceded to X out the Pit at 7 generations bred back to a pure Catahoula the % would be 99.21875% Catahoula and 0.78125 Pit and if doing this "responsibly" we're looking at around 14 years of breeding to get here, Breeding the dogs at 2 years old.

bigainbuilt,

What is the point of breeding 7 generations of a cross just to wind up with a 99.22% catahoula? Might as well just breed pure cats. Unless the idea is to capture certain qualities from the bulldog and making sure they are passed on as dominate traits. Wouldn't this make this line a different breed? In my mind I think that it would be a different strain of cats, otherwise why do it. I think this is a good question, maybe someone has a good theory or answer. If part of the answer is to capture certain qualities from the bulldog, will this change the 99.22% cat back to a lower number? Inquiring minds want to know....
By the way, I like your math skills...

Reuben- I started at a 50/50 dog due to this being the highest equal percentage possible and then broke it down until I got under 1 % Pitbull(Pretty close to "pure"). The only reason I could think of doing this would be to add grit or game to a line of Catahoula that lacked it to begin or to bulk a dog from the Mcmillin line. I did Cwards on paper but went with the calculator for UglyDogs question.  ;D

Okay, this is getting INTERESTING TOO ME!

here is a scenario - wanting to put your caculator to work!

take two unrelated dogs, both are 50/50, dog A= Plott/Catahoula X Dog B Airedeale/BMC, So say you bred dog A to Dog B, how would you breed, how many times, to be able to call it a purebred dog?

This is how I feel about all hunting and working breeds these days Mr. P but I didn’t always think like this. I am a little partial to BMC's myself. ;D

When I have been breeding good dogs for many years like you have Mr. P, I will through some more skin in this debate. Until then, if anyone wants to know how to water down a good line of cur dogs and dramatically up your percentage of culls just give me a call. I can show you how to do it real fast with cross breeding and breeding best to best. I use to be real good at it but at least my culls never made it to the classified adds.

 leonriverboy, I think you are probably on to a good cross that suits you. I wish all the best with it. I wont deny that cross breeding can produce some good dogs and Im not completely closed minded to it. I just wont be bothering with it myself anymore. I just dont like having to feed that many dogs just to cull most of them in the end.

The discussion is really heating up.

I think crossbreeding happens mostly because some people don't have two great bmc to put together, but they will have a great bmc and a great cat(or some other cur), so they put those two together.

I think they way To go is to take two dogs that are similar in most ways. I believe to keep good dogs going u have to breed dogs that have many of the same traits but one or the other will have something u want to add in. U can't insure that u will get that added trait but by putting two dogs that have the majority of traits u want u will at least get that. At least u get what u started with, bur here's the kicker..take one of the pups from the f1 cross and take it back to the parent that had that extra trait now u have upped ur chances of getting that extra trait without losing all ur original traits.

As far as adding catch dog to the cuts. I got one and I like the cross. Actually every catchdog/baydog cross I've personally hunted with I've really liked

We about wore this subject out but it has been very interesting and fun, here is my final input on this one....

Breeding in let's say some pit  to plott  and then the goal is to keep 25% pit to keep the grit level up to a desired level.

The idea is good but some of the problems I have observed have been that the plott may not have the grit or the plott has the grit but he was a fluke because the rest of his relatives were bay dogs that never laid a tooth on a hog. The right plott dog has to have the grit as well as the relatives so that we can possibly increase our chances of getting what we want. Then we line breed off the very best.

The pit should have the best qualities for catching,handling, stamina and dog friendly, and the other important traits should be to be built more for speed to compliment the plott so that the result should be RCD or strike dogs that can sure enough stop most any hog....

The other problem I have seen is that what some people think is a good hog dog the next breeder/hunter may consider the dog a cull. This is what makes the world go round and round.... :)

Ugly Dog- It would also take 7 generations after the original 50/50 cross bred back to a "pure blood" to bring the % to (I will use the Plott as the example) 99.4140625% Plott with 0.1953125%, Catahoula 0.1953125% Airedale and 0.1953125% BMC.

Reuben,

You hit the nail on the head right there... ;)

i agree with this statement right here completely...but on the other side of the coin when i get to the point where i can readily and easily keep the majority of the pups i produce i will make breedings for me. my opinion is that when you start trying to breed for the masses you have set your self up for failure and you haven't even started yet. because like rueben stated, every person hunts a little different and every person likes their dogs a little different. with this game that we play it is so very hard to please the masses BECAUSE there are so many different terrians, styles, and formulas for success.

when i was breeding pits. the thing that made so many great dogs is that people made breedings with a certain "get" in mind but they made the breedings mostly for themselves and then put a few on the market. they really didnt' care if liked this dog adn that dog or style of dog becasue tehy were going to test their dogs and show what they could do. the best survived and were bred, wihch is why pits are pretty easy to predict what you are going to get  when you breed them.

my feeling is that i will make a breeding with a certain "get" in mind keep the majority of the pups put a few on the market and stick mine in teh woods and SHOW what they can do. you still might not like the style of my dogss, and that is fine because i am making the breedings for me. and i'm sure sooner or later there will be a few people that are looking for dogs that hunt like mine do..jmo

There is no doubt that line breeding for what kind of dog you want will up your percentages of getting that dog.. You should be able to produce a higher percentage of what you think a " good " dog is.. That being said you might get a "great" dog from anywhere. If you are going to make a cross like say 1/2 cat 1/2 bulldog or 1/2 bmc/ 1/2 bulldog,  if you take a line bred cat and cross it to a linebred bulldog your percentages would be way better than breeding a scatterbred cat to a scatterbred bulldog. Or even a linebred cat to a scatterbred bulldog.. Line breeding locks in the specific traits you want in a dog and if you take 2 dogs that have been linebred for those traits then your chances of getting the dogs that you want out of the cross go way up.. I have some on the ground right now that are 7 weeks old. I'll let yall know if it "worked" in about 8 months..

From what I have seen the guys/gals who develop and maintain a line thru linebreeding generally have more to say about whats what on a dog. The dues they pay in working out the problems in a line of dogs really, really comes across when you speak to them, they just radiate dog knowledge. IMO that’s the difference btw making dogs that will hunt, and breeding hunting dogs that reproduce themselves. If I get a dog from someone I want the best chance for that dog to be what they say it parents are since its my burden to feed and house. JM 2ct

Great post.

So true!
 My favorite part is the weird looks I got from these folks when I "thought" I was radiating dog knowledge around them! rolleyes lol I learned to shut up and listen but it took me a while because I am hard headed and had an attitude about it.
I aint trying to be down on folks at all and I sure dont have the right to look down my nose at anyone who tries to breed a hog dog after what I have done in the past. I usually always keep my mouth shut on a breeding post but the times I do comment, it’s in hopes that I can keep someone from all the grief, culls, and wasted years that I went through.
Good luck on your crosses folks.

Thanks guys,

Keep posting Boarninja, everyone has a right to their opinion. Your not here to insult anyone, I'm not either.  I for one found your posts refreshing. I just can't read to the end of a post when someone talks about a breeding that my girlfriend could do and get the same exact dogs and she doesnt know the 1st thing about dogs or breeding. I know of guys here who been dogmen for a long time and agree whole heartedly with this angle. In the end to each his own.

Okay that what gets me, as the math end of breeding don't natch up to abilty to point out/reproduce traits, as being 100%, I don't know if what I am saying makes any sense, Forget about breeds  just for a minute, you had 2 dogs for your baseline that all have similiar traits, styles, (not talking about appearance) but good physical attributes that also contribute to hunting abilities as stamina, ect., If you were trying to create a dog, that absolute what you wanted (close to perfect in your opinion) Can you do it in seven generations to reproduce consistant offspring that match the original two specimens? if the can consistant reproduce the same thing then can you create a "new breed" in 7 generations, is point where I am trying to get too?

uglydog i think with the right dogs you can have dogs that reproduce them selves at a level in less than 7generations, but that doesn't always mean its a "new breed". kinda like your amerigos. i think it's safe to say that the amerigos are pretty true to form, the "get" is pretty consistant, but i would say they are a new breed yet. kinda like the catdo and the catabull. these two crosses when you breed them back to their respective crosses are pretty true to form, but i still would call them a new breed.

i read somewhere that it takes a least 3 different breeds to be classified as a new breed and their were percentages that were assigned to the three different breeds. i can't remember where i saw it or what the percentages are...personally i would call them what they are and if in 10-15yrs you are strickly breeding that cross and no matter what you cross it with you can see the traits from "your breed" show through AND people are no longer saying that is a cross of x,y,z, but are saying that is a "insert breed name". then i think you have successfully created a new breed.

I'm not a hog hunter, I'm a cat hunter so I can't comment on the types of dogs y'all are looking to produce.  I will say that within a specific line of dogs of any breed it is very difficult to consistently produce "good" dogs even with tight line breeding.  That being said it doesn't seem to me that it would be very probably that you would consistently get "good" dogs in just 7 breedings or less when creating basically a new breed.  It probably depends on how strictly you judge your dogs abilities. IMO many people who are producing litters and not culling many are probably not evaluating their dogs honestly for one reason or another (in general, not directed at anyone).  IMO, if you are not culling hard you are not helping any of the existing breeds or crosses.  This means culling because you have hunted hard and not seen the traits you want, not culling because the dog is the wrong color or doesn't have a bob tail, etc...But since I don't hunt these types of dogs I could be wrong, just stating an opinion from a different point of view.
I do think that if you are trying to produce a new breed or strain or whatever that there are enough hunters on this site and others with similar goals so that some of you should get together and share the breeding and evaluating.  This stuff takes time to do it correctly and ten of you working together on crosses could do it a lot faster than one.  That would also allow dogs to be evaluated in different areas and different terrain.
Derek

Great post for the most part.  It is always important to start your program off with the best that is out there. 

You could very well create your own breed but the throwbacks from previous generations will always show up and you would have to also cull those traits if they were unwanted. The single most common throwback is when you watch a dog lay and it "smashes the grass back" before laying, This trait has been passed down for 1000's of generations and been ignored so it has become "built in".

Boarninja- I enjoy the conversation and oppurtunity to discuss dogs with everyone and in no way am trying to prove myself as much as bring up different scenerios, If my postings have "ruffled your feathers" I just want to say it wasn't posted with that intent.

Don’t worry about me. I never took anyone’s comments personnel and Im one of the last people you can riel on this board. This has been a great thread all the way around! I was a little concerned (after reading what I had posted) that I would get blasted but it never came! Lol. I was a little surprised because subjects like this can really get some of us tough guy hog hunters panties in a wad! lol
Threads like this on this board are my favorite. If you go back and check them all, you may find only one or two short comments total in all of them from me. I try to learn something when I can from them.
I said what I said so folks would know where I am coming from is all. I probably come across a little abrasive or blunt on this subject sometimes but that’s just because of my own failures with breeding and I just threw them out there.

And BigAinaBuilt, your math is no better than mine! Mine never adds up right either! lol.................................Post on people

Man this is a long thread lol I have a question.  If u line breed u have to start somewhere right and it is said in here start with the best.  But early on in the thread it seemed like people were saying the f1 cross may be good but latter breedings will not be so much so if this is so where do u start and yes know this is a nubie ? But I'm about half confused

I would look at the dogs great great grandparents abilities and drive and go from there, Run the dog 2 -3 times a week until 3 years old and then make a judgement call as to whether it is breed worthy. Breed it to a dog of the same caliber or better and cull the litter hard according what you plan to produce in the future. With that being said keep in mind how honest and straight forward some people can be about their dogs and how everyones expectaions will differ so if possible watch the parents work in a few different scenerios.

Purebreedcolt,

The purpose of linebreeding should never be to produce better dogs than you start with.  Simply put, the objective is to narrow the gene pool so that you can control (somewhat) the consistancy of what your producing.  Ask anybody who claims to have a linebred program, and they should be able to quickly tell you the dog who the line is based on, and which sets the standard for what that line should be.

People forget that when you cross two unrelated dogs, your not breeding only those two but also all the generations behind them.  Say for instance you have a real good male dog and you choose to breed him but keep in mind the fact that 3/4 of his past relatives are sorry.  Even though that dog is good, that's still an awful lot of "sorry" to be breeding.

Bryant- So If you planned to create your own line how far back into the lineage would you look in order to determine whether the dog would be breed worthy to be the foundation of your linebreeding program?

If I were able to trace the lineage of a certain dog for many generations, I personally wouldn't start breeding the dog and try to label it "my" line of dogs.  I think this happens a lot.

When breeding dogs, my intent would never be to create my own line, rather perhaps to try and re-create a certain dog.  The more history you know the better, but you can start blind with a breeding as long as your honest with youself in evaluating the progeny.

Personal preferance. There are as many catchy bmc as cat period. I know severel. I think for going with the highest percentage of having a cross catch you should go with the lacy b/c they are such gritty little turds, and close ranged like i perfer a bulldog. However the (lacy/pit) i owned was just like a gritty cur so i moved him to a guy who's hunting style he fit.

 But I know 5 Bmc off the top of my head right now that would straight catch if you kept them on lead, odds are crossed to a bulldog you would get the same results.