EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

After loosing several dogs and going through a bunch more... my outlook has changed quite a bit. Anyone that knew me a couple of years ago knew I didn't want anything to do with raising puppies. I started hog hunting with puppies and it was a long road, then had a few litters from those dogs that didn't turn out how I liked... swore I was through with pups.

The foundation dogs and breedings are already in place with this project, one female and two males. The first cross was made about 4 years ago. The four pups from that cross all made good and great dogs. The second cross was just made and I have ten pups that are 4 weeks old today. I will be keeping 4 or 5 of these and the rest will be placed with friends. Now, after talking it over with several people, I plan on crossing the female back to a direct son from the first litter sometimes next year. I have access to two sons that from what i'm told, money can't buy.

Also, we have several grandpups to the foundation female that are on their way to making goods dog at a year and a half old.

The research was done on the three foundation dogs and they all come from established lines, but all three are a different breed of cur dog. All three are also proven producers. The first male is dead now, I would have loved to make that cross again.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

Mike, I'll email you a couple of things that may help.

hey Mike I have 11 Brindle puppies how many you wont,lol

I too am done with puppy raising Mike,......I wish you the best of luck with your project. Sounds to me like you already know what you're doing and need no advice from an old redneck....lol Just keep us posted on how this goes....I'm interested in what you're trying here.

I'll certainly be following this, may try it myself one day... let you do it first to see if it works! ;D

Looking forward to seeing how this latest litter turns out. I know I have sure enjoyed hunting behind the parents.

chris was that your dogs that got lost

Yes.

If these pups work as expected it will sure be nice!  I would like to see a hunter/tweety cross and then cross those pus back over these buck/tweety pups that just hit the ground. Hat would tighten things up quite a bit. Then I would use those brandy brothers as an outcrossing on the following litters because it would still be line breeding and back to some of that older blood. There alot of flaws to my plan but on paper to me that would the optimal. I think just about anyway you cross around within that family will be good.

This topic has been the most interesting subject to me the past yr and i have read alot on it and talk regularly with 2 old timers who line breed very tight with outstanding results! I think your on the right track as you already know, I would continue to tighten it up with every cross you do. Seems to be the best way to stay in good dogs and not luck across them to me.

That's why the next cross will be Tweety to a direct son. ;) Then we will have plenty to work with from there on out.

Thats cool, I have tight bred BMC pups coming that all trace back to the Henry dog. Some on the stock side, some wb...This type of breeding makes the hobby alot of fun.

Only thing I would suggest having with ur tight bred dogs is to get another tightly bred dog that comes from producers that is unrelated. Then take those oils back to ur tight bred inbred dogs. That way u always have a touch of hybrid vigor. That unrelatd dog is what people forget the most. Those hybrid dogs will ALWAYS pop and be grat products for u

Which tdirect Tweety son will you take her back to?

Krystal,

   I can't speak for Mike, but I have a feeling that has yet to be decided.

Not sure yet Krystal. The Obama dog is about 30 minutes away from me and the Blackie dog is in Lexington. I'm going to hunt with both to decide.

That's funny you mention that Josh. I just happened to pick up a pup last weekend that fits your description. Just not sure when that cross would need to be bred in?

Mike,from what we talked about you may never actually need it with the variations and options you have already IMO.

U use the unrelated dog when ur dogs begin to lose that pop. When ur litters begin to be a touch below what u normally produce introduce the unrelated pup. That litter will be what ur used to seeing. Take those pups back to ur tight bred dogs and breed as u feel until they get 'stale' again

If u are inbreeding and linebreeding there will come a time when u will need to introduce some new blood. If u keep it too tight too long ur blood will get stale. This is what we saw when we were breeding pits. When u take a tight bred dog introduce some new blood our pups were dynamite. Then when we took those pups back to our linebred dogs our consistency went back up

Point taken Duce but with the variations he has to work with he could go on for 20  years before he gets stale and still keep what he like imo.

But I do get you what you are saying but he is starting with a bigger gene pool and much more diversity vs game bred apbt breeding programs.

Ha ha... you took more home from Texas than you were expecting! :o

Josh, that makes sense, but it will be a long time before the blood gets that tight.

Mr Mud,

    If my dogs were eyeing her, it's cuz they are lesbos. Mine were all females, so you can pin the "baby daddy" badge on any of mine. ;D

cool...i don't really know the gene pool mike is dealing with so you are right if he has a large gene pool then he may not need any unrelated dogs for sometime.

it seems you are well started in what you are trying to achieve, mike, so keep it going and keep us posted. i've hunted with ray's dog joe..that's a BIG pretty dog there..

Good luck with your endeavor, Mike.  Nothing more rewarding than going out catching hogs with fine dogs you've bred and raised.

We spoke about this the other evening when you were here, but I've heard negative things about breeding too close for a long time.  While I agree, you can't do it generation after generation I've personally witnessed three litters of brother-sister, mother-father crosses that made exceptional dogs.  I tend to believe more of what my eyes see, than of what my ears hear.

You are right Bryant, your eyes will tell ya ha ha ...it can be done with success and carried on for a good long time with culling and selection.

Josh,

    Ray's Joe dog, and Mike's black dog somehow ended up being giants. 

Here's the Grand dam, and dam
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/DEERHUNTER280/2-01-09I.jpg)
Here's a couple pics of their brother and sisters, that are more average sized dogs.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/ccoughran/DSC_0267-1.jpg)

(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/ccoughran/DSC_0826.jpg)

Those two pups pictured and Clay's Riley dog are head and shoulders better dogs than the others out of that litter.  Both at less than 9 months old were on their way to making a strike dog.  I would like to hear someone who has done a LOT of line breeding tell me how they cull.  To me it is tempting to just keep the ones that by a year old are really making it happen and get rid of the others but maybe that is too hasty.  I know there are a lot of stories of late bloomers becoming outstanding dogs but my experiences have taught me that most jam dogs I have seen the last few years are all early starting, fast maturing dogs and personally I value that alot!  I don't want to wait 14-18 months for a dog to start contributing.  If by 12 months they are not contributing and showing me they have the drive and want to then they are a cull and are not going to be used in a breeding program for dang sure.  Not trying to steer the thread off corse just kinda asking a general question.

I inbred and linebred pits for around 15 yrs. I just stopped breeding pits with my friends back home. Matt u cull based off of what u r looking for in a dog. It seems u already have a criteria of what u want ur line to look like. Fast starting dogs that mature quick. Harsher dog doesn't look like that cull them. That way u are only breeding the dogs that are farting fast so u are upping ir chances of having full litters of fast staring pups.

We all know of the dogs that start late and end up being good dogs. Some people are willing to wait for that greatness others aren't. Seems u are in the later group nothing wrong with that  if u want fast starting dogs only breed fast starting dogs.

Wheni was breed pits heavy if by a yr thy weren't 'on' they wre culled. We eventually had litters of dogs that by a yr were fully 'turned 'on'' just takes selective breeding.

I line bred and inbred and culled hard for 15 years on a line of mtn curs. I started with good dogs and toward the end most any puppy would make a decent hog dog but many were early starting and very good dogs.


I  was never in it for the money so I kept about 4 pups from a litter and then culled down to 1 or 2.  I tested the pups at 8 weeks and throughout puppyhood, this included baying. willingness to swim and I took them out to the woods at 4 months to see which ones rolled out. I made sure that they were not rolling out because they were following the lead of another puppy etc... etc... I made sure that they were early starters. At 10 months I wanted them to strike and run with the big dogs. If they came back after 15 minutes it was a major concern for me. My reasons for all of this was that if I have to wait until the pup is 1.5 years of age then the offspring will be the same or the line will be regressing. I just couldn't keep a pup for that long to decide if it was a cull or not. Same thing if you have to use a training collar excessively. You will produce pups that need the same form of training. When you get to the point that you need new blood then: 1. find a dog that is somewhat related and has the same qualities as your dogs and possibly bring something to the table to enhance the strain, or 2, breed your best gyp to a stud that is somewhat related and keep as many pups from that cross and then select the best possible pup to breed into your strain so that you bring in a small amount of new blood but does not really change your strain. The idea is to give the strain a boost, not to lose what you have strived for. This is how I did it and it worked for me. You just have to call it like it is and to not have kennel blindness. It takes a lot of money to do this. I'm retired now so will not do this again.

IMO, I think that the best thing to do is to get 4 or 5 friends with the same goals and each keep at least several dogs and develop a breeding program that includes a written hunting standard that describes how the dog/gyp should hunt and how it is built to include the size and weight. I would like to be a part of something like this....I am partial to the MTN CUR though...

Rueben this is exactly what I was referring to in the dogo thread. Getting several people that are like minded to work a strain of dogs is the only way to truly impact a breed or strain. It's just too much work for one man or woman.

Now here's what i'm not sure on with the Tweety grandpups pictured above. Their sire would be an outcross into the line... nothing to do with the two foundation males. I think i'll wait and see how the Tweety/Buck litter turns out, then breed Tweety back to a son from her and Winchester next year. That should should lock the blood in from the three foundation dogs, giving us plenty of pups to work with.

If those don't work out, maybe cross one the grandpups in later on down the road... if they make the grade?

This is all just thoughts running through my mind... it may turn into a big cluster and a bunch of culls. ???

I think it's ok to start out with a certain percentage (higher) of culls as long as you select the best pups... In my experience I sometimes didn't always pick the best ones but did pretty good about picking a good one. Just give away or sell the pups you don't keep that you believe could possibly turn out as good hunting dogs that are worthy of breeding to hunters that will hunt them and stay in contact with you. Just have the understanding that you want to breed the gyp/stud of your choice to this dog that turned out so that you can get a few pups. This way you raise the probability of aquiring the best for breeding.  This is my 2 cents worth....

I believe that your idea's are good as to what you are trying to accomplish. :)

A good point to remember is that when line breeding you bring out both desireable and non desireable traits....when the bad traits come out (that were always there even though not seen) that is the worst time to out cross! That will ensure they are always passed on, instead get the pup out of the litter that doesnt show the bad traits and line breed it, it will cut the the bad traits out forever...I will try to find the article on that. Silverton boar dogs knows alot on this subject if I remember right

By what i have read on here Cward does alot of this with his dogs im sure he could help

Seems like Tweety throws some pretty good dogs no matter who she is bred to......and they all seem to turn on rather quickly.  I will be very interested to see how this experiment goes.

This is just some of my personal thoughts,

I like an early starter, first look at a pig at 4 months, trained untill a year old, and by then they better be freaking out to get to a pig. If not, cull.

With the broad range of genetics you have, breed them real tight at first, selecting for conformation and performance, keeping the whole litter untill they are a year old (that's the only way you know what you've got, look for consistency through the litter in all things) keep the best Male and female from each pairing at 18 months, cull the rest.

I always want to breed back up the line when I can, sire to daughter or grand sire to grand daughter. I like that better than a litter mate pairing.

Once you get pretty close to what you want, out cross every third cross, that way you can breed real tight twice then out cross, and repeat. If your blood is good and you have selected you could be close to what you want in 6-7 generations.

Don't settle for less than what you feel is perfect. I am line breeding two different lines right now and its a lot of work and a lot of dog food, but well worth the time.

here is  good read http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

For me personally line breeding is done to set the traits you want so that your outcrosses will be very consistent and have the hybrid vigor we all want. So to me line breeding is not an end unto its self, but a way to produce out cross dogs as the final goal.

Thanks everyone. From what i've read and people i've talked to... everyone does things a little different, with the same end result.

Paul, you mention outcrossing every third breeding, what do you outcross to? Some people hardly ever outcross and some have never outcrossed from what i've gathered.

Thanks for posting the link for the linebreeding article on the GSP. It was very informative. It refreshed my memory because it has been a long time since I have done any reading on breeding better dogs.

Unless I misunderstood the article, it is totally against outcrossing because of what you lose in the process. Linebreeding is the way to go as long as we select properly. To me it is about picking the right pups and never comprimising like I stated in one of my previous posts.

IMO breeding for color would be easy because it is visual and anyone could probably do it.... But, when we breed for hunting ability, brains and conformation it becomes a different ball game. By the time we analyze and write down all the definitions  for hunting ability so that we can breed toward those goals, the list would be getting long... Then you factor in the other traits and it becomes a  bigger challenge.

Like I stated before, it is my opinion that outcrossing would have to be done with a dog that is somewhat related and looks and acts similar to your line. I would venture to say that it needs to carry at least 50% relations to your strain and then breed the best offspring back into the line and not breed the distant relative any more to your dogs (a one time deal).

I really enjoyed the westwind article, very informative.  Anyone considering a line program should read and study it thanks for the info.

The article was great, I appreciate it...I never chime in on conversations like this, because I don't have first hand experience...Now I have read enough on here and talked to a few men who do it religiously with the results being a great breeding program and great dogs...Im on the outside looking in so I really don't have an opinioin, I kinda like to take a lil here and there and see what best sits with me so to say...Now with the line breeding and todays technology, mostly the Garmin, one should be able to cull harder and more importantly cull smarter which is important...Each dog from the same breeding or from three generations down is gonna bring something special to the table, and its all personal how you what your looking for in a dog, and with line breeding you will get more consistency...I plan on fiddling with line breeding, but first I gotta find a dog worth line breeding  ;D Good luck Mike

When I out-cross I look for a dog that is built exactly the way I want, and/or is a little better than my line. The out-cross dog's hunting style should match my line's style but be better in some regard. So the out cross dog is just like my line but better in some respect. I don't care if it is somehow related to my line but I want it to also be a tight bread dog. The once every 3rd cross is to add something from an outstanding dog and ad hybrid vigor. If your genetics are really good you can make fast progress with this approach.

I am not saying this is the only way to breed dogs, just what has worked for my family over the years.

sliverton that is how we used to do it. about every third or fourth linebred/inbred breeding we would introduce something new. normally we tried to get a dog that was 25% related but not always. our criteria was that they had to be either 25% related and the 75% be wound up tight or a tightly bred dog. this was for us to even consider breeding to that dog or gyp. then we looked at the ablity level of the dog. did it have all the traits that our dogs had, if it did how did it measure up to our dogs ability level, then did this new dog have anything new to add, finally we looked at the parents, and grandparents of the dog. if the parents and grandparents weren't consistant producers then we didn't fool with the dog because you are introducing dogs that have a low % rate and that will weaken you line. we NEVER bred to freaks. freaks very seldom if ever reproduce themselves, so we didn't fool with them. we also looked at the production rate of the stud or the gyp. if they met all the above criteria but as an individual they weren't through high %'s then we didn't fool with them either. back then it was costing about a G to breed to great producing studs or to studs that had won alot. we didn't get caught up in the hoopla of bloodlines we made educated decisions and we were producing at really high rates because we were so picky about what we bred to. we had many people that starting hating on us because we wouldn't breed to their gyps or we would let their studs breed our gyps. we weren't about the money we were bout having consistant dogs and when people knew they had dogs that came off our yard they new they were getting top notch stuff, or better yet when they came up against one of our dogs they knew they were in for it....it's really not hard to do if you have people that an put egos aside and agree on breeding only the dogs that show the traits you want and not playing favorites with dogs...

DUUUUUDE,

You said it all right there..... :)

Paul, one more question. Are you line breeding your cat/plott dogs? If so, do you outcross to another cat/plott or a purebred cat or plott?

It will probably be a several years before I need to outcross, but I don't think i'll find dogs bred just like these.

Hey Mike, interesting piece and the pups sound really great.. I know it'll be a while before you look to outcross but when you do let me know.. I can put you onto a half brother to Winchester out of Perry black dogs or an even better young dog out of the same blood

Tshelley, where do you know of a half brother to Winchester?

Thanks Tony.

Mike, I am just starting to line breed this set of dogs, it took a while to find the perfect set of females to cross with Jessie. I would want to outcross with a Straight Catahoula. I would be unsure about adding a straight Plott back into the mix because I want these dogs to be dead silent. I would consider a Plott/ Catahoula out cross but there is a lot of genetic veriation in a 50/50 cross dog and I would avoid that if I could.

My Cat/Plott line is based off of three dogs. Jessie, Plott/ Catahoula; Cat, Plott/ Catahoula; Connie, straight Catahoula. All three dogs are unrelated but outstanding individuals, All will rig and all will cast, cold noses and great style. All with great speed. Flaws in these dogs: Cat hunts at a trot and therefore does not road well, but she is the fastest dog I own. Connie and Jessie are perfect dogs in my eye. That's just some background on the 3 dogs.

1st cross was Jessie/ Cat, keep all 4 pups 3 male 1 female. They are now 1 yr old. The 3 males are outstanding(Stolie being the best), the female is good but immature(like her sire was at that age).

2nd cross was Jessie/ Connie, I kept one female pup from this litter(placed two with friends), she is 4 months and as good a pup at this age as I have bred (Bella).

next planned breeding's, Stolie/Cat, son/mother, looking for a Male and female to keep and tighten up the blood.
Jessie/ Connie, because I need a male from this pairing and this pairing nicked very well.
Jessie/ Bella,Father/ daughter, if she proves herself, to tighten up the blood.

 After these pairing I will look for one outcross with a straight Catahoula male out of Connie's line. ( I have two outstanding males, Frog and Bull, from a Punchy/Connie pairing that are making strong dogs that would fit this outcross if they are still alive).

I don't think I will add any outside Plott blood to this line, I want to keep it 1/4 to 1/2 Plott.

That's enough work to keep me busy for next few years....

  

Sounds like a good plan Paul.

I'll do the mother/son cross next year, then wait another year on the next breeding. That will give me two years to evaluate this litter I have now.

IMO, it is not linebreeding when you outcross every 2 or 3 genarations after the strain has been developed. The dog or gyp used to freshen up the line should look and hunt similarly to the strain and be a relative on one side of your line. The pups should be bred back into the strain and the dog or gyp used to freshen the line taken out of the program. Then every 3 generations or when you feel the need to freshen the line, repeat the last step...

In reality, when you do it this way it is still linebreeding....

The more generations you do this the more often you will feel the need to freshen the strain, but always with a small percentage of an outcrossed dog.

This is only half of it, the other half is to test the pups, dogs, and cull hard.  Eventually, the worst dogs in the yard should be able to do it alone but does not necessarily qualify them as breeders.

 :o Dang! Noah, we may actually get you over to the dark side one day!!!lol

A very interesting thread for me.  Best of luck with your plan and litters Mike. It will be pretty dang neat to see your results in the litters to come.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread,....since I don't actually know most of you guys from TX, I'm still learning your dogs and your hunting styles. I'd like to know what are Mike's dogs that are in this project.....by that I mean what sort of curs are they.....hate to come off as a dummy here, but I'm still rather new and just trying to catch up. Thanks guys!

Firemedic,

The foundation female is this project is my Tweety dog. She's a black catahoula that came from cow dog stock out near LaGrange, Tx. The Winchester male, who is dead now, is a brindle cur that goes back to some old East Texas blood near me in Coldspring. The third male is Buck, he's a yella BMC. All three have produced good dogs, so I believe we have something to work with. I've seen and bred good dogs in the past that didn't produce anything... that's why I didn't want to fool with puppies again.

After my last post I realized that I should take this to the point where the breeding is in an ongoing mode or at least to keep it going until you decide to stop...

Once we get to the point that the dogs are all related then stagger the age of the males and females so that they are not getting old at the same time.

It is time to freshen the strain when there are too many brothers/sisters from the same parents.

Once we are somewhat satisfied with the strain and there is no need to breed you can choose not to breed at all for as long as the pack is young enough and healthy, or, you can breed a few litters every now and then to place in good hunting homes with the understanding that if the pup turns out above average that you can get a pup or two from a cross of my choosing.

Also by breeding a litter every now and then when you are looking at the pups before placing we have the opurtunity to select a pup that really suits us and also you get to verify what the dogs are producing.

At the beginning I bred a brother to sister and then bred the females on their first heat. I did this the first two generations so that I could turn over the bloodline as quickly as possible. The idea was to somewhat purify the gene pool within a few years. Right or wrong this is how I did it because I wanted to increase my percentage chance of getting high quality dogs right away. I was dealing with early starting dogs so I felt comfortable doing this.

I can't say that this is the right way or the only way to breed better dogs but this is how I did it and it worked for me.

My suggestion is that if someone wants to try something like this to form a co-op or team of men and women with the same goals so that the labor and expenses can be kept down. Not only that but you can keep more dogs which will give you more to choose from.

Thanks Mike, this helps a bunch, as most of you guys know each other in person or have known of each other, it's kinda hard for a guy from Bama to keep up with it all. Sounds like you have something to work with there so maybe you'll get a bit of luck and hit the jackpot with these pups. I do appreciate the info on your dogs.

The Tweety x Obama cross has been made... this a mother/son cross.;D I have one more planned breeding to Tweety, that will be to her grandson, my Hunter dog, next year. At 2 1/2 years old, he's on his way to making a good one.

The Tweety x Buck pups just turned a year old last month. All have been late bloomers, just like we were told Buck's offspring usually were. I'm down to three, this coming coming year will show what they're made off.

Underdog and I also picked up two, 8 month old male granpups of Tweety. They're out of Obama and some old local blood. Looking forward to getting them in the woods.

lol mother/son is cuttin it close aint it :D Whats your opinion on breeding this molly gyp back with the winchester lines? or possibly one of my own dogs? have any of her littermates had any pups yet?

As long as you don't make a habit out of it. From what I gather, the best way to reproduce a dog is a mother/son or father/daughter cross.

Judging by your other posts, it doesn't sound like the Molly dog needs to be bred because she's inconsistent?

None of her littermates have been bred, my Hunter dog will be bred next year... he's proven himself breed worthy.

ya i was thinking that same thing... she was doin so good and real independant then the last month or so she has just been taggin along with my bird dog...i like her range and build and bottom end and had every intention on breeding her with mine cause she is not rough and mine are too rough...but now im wondering if i should or not...its like she just lost interest, im gonna start workin with her for a few more months and see where that goes but if she continues to do like she has been ill prolly cull her :( i feel like she has alot of potential 

mother /son father/ daughter half brother/halfsister then back to grand parents can go for years without new blood just never full brother full siter . benn breeding that way for 10 years now with good results . i breed my dogs just like i breed my roosters ;D most all our genetic info came by the way of ckicken men still taught in all circles of the globe . out crossing in fowl only comes when needed to bring size back to line . want to talk line breeding get with an old chicken man or buy floyed gurly's book the sientific breeding of game fowl its got pedigree info on boudreaux blind billy a bulldog of extensive line breeding  from way back hope this helps

linebreeding/inbreeding works but have to cull hard and select the very best for breeding. The dogs used for breeding have got to be of the best quality and exceptional dogs with the focus being on natural ability. Outcrossing needs to be kept to a minimum to keep the junk out of the gene pool.

To me the most important part of breeding better dogs is in selection of the best.

 x-2

I have not read all these threads but if I was you Mike I would do a half brother half sister breeding with the old foundation bitch being the mother of both and if the two males are not related and both great dogs make them the daddy's .



..........................Male 1
...............
..........................Foundation bitch
...Pups 50% Foundation bitch
..........................Male 2
...............
..........................Foundation bitch

These types of half bro half sister breedings enables you to carry your old foundation bitch 50% and the two males can be a 25% one and 25% the other giving you plenty of Hybrid Vigor as so the pups can still be real athletes but still be heavy on your foundation bitch and they will be good producing dogs them selfs.

You could even do it as long as they are not full brothers but maybe somewhat kin.  

Also as soon as I use to do these types of breedings I would then take these and breed right back in to the family of the old foundation bitch .  You only need to outcross when the dogs tell you they need it in other words you start getting things you dont want like the size goes down , the wind is not there, the speed starts to slow down thats when you go back to the cross then right back to what you were doing .

i am also trying to fig this out i have dogs that are tight fbmc breed  i have a male and a female what would be the best male to breed my female to .would it be the father ?i have these to dogs and another male and female from totally diff blood they all are the same age and im gonna try to line breed these also i have acess to both parents and some grandparents from both the bloodlines . i hope this makes sence ,please help thanks,mark

If you have real good hog dogs and/or access to some real good dogs that are related then you are set up to breed better dogs. I emailed you back... you can call me most any time and I will do my best to help you.

TexasHogDogs and halfbreed, that's my plan. As soon as these two liters are raised and I figure out which ones make dogs... i'll start crossing the 1/2 brother 1/2 sisters. That should tie all three foundations dogs together, plus, we have so much related blood around now that I believe we can go on for many years with out an outcross.

One question and i've heard this from just about everyone. Why not do a full brother/sister cross? I don't ever have any plans of doing it, just wondering what everyone has experienced with it.

I've wondered the full bro sis breeding question too, what if your not pulling from similar gene pools. Example stag pit, is that parentage far enough from each other to safely replicate in full bro,sis?

i've seen it happen by accident when i sold b/s pair to a guy  they all came out lookin good and all but the jist of it is  [ if there are any bad genes or flaws it will compound them or bring them to the surface . i'll do it with my chicken lines just to test for flaws ] but i can eat them later ;D

Full brother full sister mine were fine as pups ran in the yard played and started baying cows like all the other pups. I kept 4  and gave 2 to two different  guys. Lots of bragging and plans for those pups.. when they hit eleven months old my 4 went crazy  you could not touch them the kids could not get near them so I put them in a pen and they would stand in the corner shaking  and growling. I would force them to let me pet them and they  would bite and eat me up. They were culled. Jason one of the guys I gave a pup called and said his was doing the same thing he did not have the Hart to do away with him so i got him and played with him and he ripped my shirt sleeve  off. The other one made one of the best  cow dogs I ever seen. Was hit by a car working cattle. He had one litter of pups and they were all good dogs.

Now mind you that my full brother and sister  were already line breed when I breed them.

This is what I think about brother sister cross. If your dogs are already tight bred, meaning line bred and inbred then I wouldn't do it.

If the sire and dam to the brother and sister are not related or have a small percentage of relations then I would breed the brother sister. Then I would cull hard on the pups and keep the best of the best for breeding. This would bring your bloodline faster to a pure strain of hunting dogs if the selection process is accurate. The idea here is to select the best genes/traits and cull out the rest. This is taking out the undesireable from the bloodline and you can then line breed off of the pups.

I had some pups that the sire was also the grandsire on the dams side and also the great great grandsire on the dams side and we had a high percentage of hog dogs.

When breeding dogs there is no compromising or making excuses for the dogs that are to be bred. We have to call it like it is... If it takes 3 years to make a pup a hog dog and we make that pup into a breeder then we can expect to have to do the same with the following generations.

Again, if the strain of dogs are in the early stages of line breeding then breeding full brother sister is good if they are of high quality. If the line is established then I wouldn't do it.

Well,  its a big gamble really.  I have seen it done many times and I have done it myself .   For a big percentage of them they were duds .  The other little part of them made dogs but a only a small small part of them .  Doing a bro sister breeding really is for noting more than brood stock everyone seems to think it concentrates the gene pools and that they make great producing dogs and keeps the bloodline tight which it does and some do make great producing dogs but no more better than a half bro x half sister breedings its a myth if you ask me and you are playing Russia Roulette with your breeding progam if you don't watch out.

The other side of this that is not in any books laying on some PHD professors desk you read or in some know all's pea brain.  When you do a bro x sister breeding you concentrate the blood so hard that when you do go and do a out cross and I mean one that is not related in anyway those pups come out and you are saying man these suckers are gonna be the real deal they are straight 50/50 cross .  Well the dogs come out and just don't show up they are still sluggish some have this wrong some ain't got this and you are saying what the hell.


Well what has happened is your bro x sister breedings is so concentrated that even when you done the full out cross to no kin the dogs are still inbred !!!!!!!  In other words the out cross was not enough to break down the gene pool from the concentrated bro x sister breeding you done and there fore the pups show to be a true 50/50 cross on paper they are not in mother natures eyes and in the pups blood.  These pups could still be 3/4 the bro x sister breeding in reality are they could still even be 7/8's the bro x sister breeding in reality and mother natures eyes.  Paper don't mean crap it is just a tool a map to get to were you want to be but you better know how to read dogs and mother nature too if not you in for along long ride .

So now what do you do .  Well you got to take those pups the suppose to be 50x50 pups and out cross again and again doing a full out cross no kin and then the pups come out and guess what now they are starting to show some vigor again some of them but lets say  you got a liter of 8 and 4 show great and look great  and 4 are still sluggish some things still wrong no wind lets say no stamina and maybe still down in weight .  Well there you go four took the true cross this time and four did not .  So now what ahhahahahahaahhah well thats when you be come a dog man and dog breeder  you take the four that showed great and you go back in to your family line making great dogs and the other four if you did not cull them you take one that you think is the best and if you want cross him again to bring out the true 50 x 50 cross in his are her pups , but for Gods sake don't take one of them and breed back into you family line if you do you can wreck the whole damn thing by sending unwanted family gens back into your clean family and buddy you got a mess on your hands.

So, in my experience and in all my Buddy's experiences there is really no reason to do a bro x sister breeding if you don't know what you are doing it spells big big trouble .

Also as I have said paper don't mean jack you have to read the dogs and mother nature .  A true bro x sis breeding may take you two three straight out crosses just to get the 50 x 50 pups you are wanting in the flesh and not on paper,  so my question why the hell even mess with it .

Again reading paper is one thing you can wad it up throw it in the trash  but raising pups for two years and reading dogs and mother nature is truly another and much much harder and expensive  .

My opinion is why not just do 3/4 cull the dogs and bring them back into the family line slowly with down the line kin and you still have nuff cross in them to make the difference with out the cross you have noting thats what people need to understand .

Some of you are gonna say Aw this ole man is blowing smoke but this is 30 years of breedings dogs every which way a man can breed a dog and that is not to mention if you add up all my old friends time in breeding that had more than I have like  . Carver, Elliott, Clemmons, Hall , Smith , Hammonds , Jones, Mayfeild , and many many more great breeders you dont pick up dog number 2 for 30 yrs and dont see and do all this without learning something.

But then again to each his own do if the notion hits you and expeirnce it yourself.

Mike dont get caught up in your bloodline dont go blind those crosses in those dogs are just as important as your on line is .  Many many breeders have gone blind on their onlines and the line has paid the ultimate price.  Just remember that cross is what is making those dogs along with your line you only need so much of both your dogs now have told you that by the way they are so listen to your dogs man not to paper !

Just my two cents !

Just me here.

But if you do a full brother sister breeding and the sire and dam is a pickapoo and the other a German Shepard  

and you breed full bro x sister

still the same man they are full bro and sister by blood and both pulling from the same gene pool with no were else to go so you end up with the same thing .  Just no room and no were else to pull from .

You say well they are different breeds but still you bred full bro x sister they are both pulling from the same gene pool.  You say well one may pull from further back than the other well I say what difference does that make they are still all closely kin so you get the same results as if you bred a full bro x sister  BMC breeding are a Pit breeding same thing.  You are pulling genes from a combined condense gene pool with no relief genes are in other words real cross genes in it .

Just me man .

I gotcha!

I don't plan on any full littermate crosses, but I will be crossing 1/2 brothers and sisters to combine the blood of both foundation males. ;)

You done got me started now . Lmao! There is just not enuff room on here are enuff time .

There are other sides to these bro x sister breedings also that can wreck hovak on breeding programs .

You may sure nuff get you a super star out of one of these then you go to breeding that dog to everything on your yard and soon notice his offspring is not up to par then you mistakenly take one that is a half decent dog of his because you are sucked in by that pretty paper and thinking its gonna be gold and breed it to another gyp on the yard and that liter turns out ok so so now you are substituting pretty paper for performace thinking it will come its got to from that great blood you bred and it LOOKS SO DAMN GOOD and then you breeding one of them to some more family on your yard and boom here it comes that bro x sister breeding is fixing to beat yo butt down by breeding it back into your family of dogs for two three gens here comes them unwanted condensed genes showing there strenght by being so condensed three gens back  and they are pairing with the unwanted family genes that seem to seek each other out and boom boom boom you are in a wreck and have no direction now cause the whole yard is infested with this one bro x sister dog that you have now bred three gen deep  and scattered his offspring into breedings around the family yard .

hahahaahahahahahahah All I can say is good luck cause I have seen whole yards culled because of breeding one bad dog into a family and breeding deep with him.  One bad dog can screw up three gens of dogs in a hurry buddy.  Of course this is in big time breeding programs.

On the other hand you could get lucky and get one of them one in a million that makes ya famous but is it worth the gamble cause it is just like rolling the cylinder with one bullit in it pointed at your head .

Ya hit ya hit you dont ya dead !

what would be the best thing to breed back to .to start line breeding . i have male and female littermates fbmc

Texashogdogs,

I bred airedales and dobermans and all were outcrosses in my younger days. These dogs were not tested but most were acceptable for their breed. Then I got in to the linebreeding and inbreeding of the mtn cur and raised a high percentage of good dogs. That was fun and I spent many an hour just trying to decide who would get bred and what pups to keep.... :)

I always kept one side open breeding on the sire or dam and the rest was related. The example would be that the sire's sire is related to the said sires dam.

On the dams side the sire would be related to the sire of the pups but the dams dam would be of no or minimal relations...

The biggest problems occurred when I outcrossed to an unrelated dog. I had to cull a whole litter due to me not liking the pups. This happened twice. When outcrossing the line of tight bred dogs to the unrelated dog seemed to give me the most culls. I got dogs that didn't hunt and some that did. I tried using dogs with very little relations but those that looked and hunted the same as the linebred dogs.

I would then breed that dog back into the line and then not breed him any more because did not want my line to become the outcross line. I just tried to freshen the blood without drowning it in the frsh blood.

It might not have been the best way but it worked for me.

I am trying to do it again but this time focusing more on grit.

I sure don't know it all about breeding dogs but I do know one thing for sure. All the dogs involved in breeding have to be of the highest quality, and just because a dog is of the highest quality does not mean it reproduces itself. Like you said...we have to be observant and look and see and listen to what mother nature is telling us.

I also turned over my males for breeding a little on the slow side but turned the females over every 2 years or so that way I could turn over the bloodline at a faster rate...  Some folks breed dogs and have a strain going but they basicly have 3 generations in almost 20 years which to me is real slow progress...

I most definitely respect your knowledge and experience and I enjoy reading your points of view. I also like your blow by blow hog hunting stories... :)

Depends on if the dogs are even worth breeding on. Just cause they are fbmc bred they still need to be proven.

hey reuben i got your message  im gonna give ya a call when i leave the fire station phone dont work good here

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Depends on if the dogs are even worth breeding on. Just cause they are fbmc bred they still need to be proven.
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Ya u want a dog that's (proven), but that too can be overrated... What if u have 8 out of 9 pups turn out great and both parents were great and both grandparents were great but that one just wasn't as good???? U mite breed her and all the pups take after the grand parents and turn out great? I've had s$&@ eaters breed a dog on accident and make better dogs than alot of (proven) dogs I've had.

A real number 2 eater can produce a great dog that is not were the problem lies .  It  lies down the road a gen are two when that number 2 eaters real genes start to surface.  Now you got big big problems and  a yard full of dogs bred from this number 2 eater maybe even h is offspring by now.

Reuben ,

Sometimes it takes a long long time to find what is called a click in Ole bulldog terms.  What that is is two different bloodlines being bred together and the two bloods when combined hit hard and the dogs turn out great with high percentages of good to great out crossed dogs.  If there is not many people breeding those types of dogs then I would imagine the chances are slim at finding clicks like this and it is just a hit and miss kinda deal but with the bulldogs at that time it was hundreds of people looking for the same thing slowly but surly the secerts would get out and people would cross the lines and have good and great dogs and start breeding family's off of these proven crosses.

A breeder is going to have higher percentages of culls for sure when he out crosses his line unless it is a proven cross threw the years .   This is normal unless both lines are proven together before.  Lots of folks would cul even harder when out crossing like this keep only the cream of the crop and I mean cream of the crop,  the dogs had to be acceptinal in every way they would then take these dogs and cross back into other lines of dogs on there yards trying to find clicks .  It was not a easy thing.

Once a person does find himself a click for his family that is when a man can go for years and years on end  breeding in then out again going back and taking it back out producing great great dogs its just a hard thing sometimes finding the right family and then the right mix.

A lot of times when a person does crosses looking for those clicks like this the littlest things are easy overlooked for example a couple of dogs back in the  fourth gen of these dogs like those bro x sister breedings I was talking about being back in the  fourth gen the breeder would think they are so far back and only in there one time back in the fourth it should not make a difference but it sure does and that right there is the reason maybe his lines didn't click when he crossed.

If a breeder wants to b a great great breeder of dogs are familys of dogs it gets surgical no room for mistakes they can chit can your whole line.   This is why you see so many people that breed best to best and not keep familys of dogs .  They breed best to best no matter how they are bred, cull and keep only the best sometimes chit canning the whole liters but what they are looking for is that one great dog that will make them famous.  These dogs are high high on Hyberd Vigor no kind of gentic defects strong strong dogs because of there outcrossing so superior in performace because of this and as time goes on sometimes these type dogs go on to be the foundations of great lines of dogs because of this but these are one in a million types of dogs they do come along and when you get one you better have the sence to keep it are you will be kicking yourself in the ass for the next 30 years.

I will tell you a story of one of these type dogs one time that I owned and once I got him damn near didnt know what to do with him ahahahhahaahah.  The sire to this dog are these dogs went on to b a famous dog because of this breeding.  The mother went on to her fame and also become the best producing bitch I ever owned.

You are sure right about the dogs having to be culled and culled hard when you start to breed family dogs

x2....

I have a gyp that is from 2 unrelated parents money can't buy. There were 4 in litter, one got runover, 1 hasn't had a chance, 2 have made awsome dogs. We are planning on making cross again. My ? Is. Where to go from here for linebreeding? Not really a family to go back to, just the original sire and dam.

I think line breeding is great if you have the money, time, and dogs. Linebreeding is not the End All, Be all!!!! It works good if you have the time and money. If you only have a couple decent or good dogs and you think to yourself I should start linebreeding you probly shouldnt!  ??? GREAT dogs are the only one's that should be thought about breeding or line breeding. People like Larry Parker have got it down to a Science and you see the results. He made it his life work to produce a top notch hunting dog in his eyes and he has done it. I see people commenting on this thread about breeding this and that, Mike seems to have it in place with his Tweety dog but dont go linebreeding/inbreeding junk and expecting to find your next Superstar! Like Reuben said it takes years and generations to get where your Click or Pack needs to be. We dont need a bunch of 3 legged 4 eyed dogs running around! CULL HARD!!!!!!  ;)

Linebreeding is to produce consistant dogs...which means consistantly as good as the ones you start with.  Start with junk, you'll end up with junk.  Everyone I've ever spoken with that has a pretty good program in place can quickly name the dog their line is based on, and the intent of their line is the reproduction of that particular dog.

I think line breeding is great if you have the money, time, and dogs. Linebreeding is not the End All, Be all!!!! It works good if you have the time and money. If you only have a couple decent or good dogs and you think to yourself I should start linebreeding you probly shouldnt! 

Lmao man I could not have said it better myself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Owning and breeding a family of dogs is a real pain in the ASSSSS!  I would not do it again it takes to many years and years and years and work and work and work and money and money and money and keeps you at home 24/7 .

Got me a few good family dogs and will just breed the best and cross the best as I need them !

TexasHogDogs,

retirement wages equals smaller checks... So money was a big factor and I also felt like I was married to my dogs and with retirement I wanted to make short vacations or deer hunting trips but couldn't leave because I had to tend to the dogs... not to mention the work involved. You hit the nail right on the head...

The worst part about living on the coast was trying to evacuate a bunch dogs prior to a hurricane.

I want to breed a few good dogs but only will keep a few around. I know we can't have a good linebreeding program without a large number of dogs. The only way this would work is if we had 4 or 5 folks sharing the same type of dogs and then they must have the same vision and goals.

As said by someone else it is not a cure all... Great dogs can still produce junk, junk dogs can produce great dogs, you mite raise the odds by line breeding and inbreeding but there's no guarantee and bout 90% of any dogs outcome is based on how it's trained and handled and what it's taught... I'm not saying that certain traits can't be bred for, and I line breed myself, but there is not much chance of reproducing the exact same dog everytime, alot of a dog is what u make it, and alot of line breeding is pride in the particular lines ;)Some do do better than others, possibly cuz someone proud of the bloodline puts more time and effort into the pup than someone that just has or gets a pup they had no pride in the breeding...the gyp I have outta the Winchester/tweety line is a prime example... She's been run with some jam up dogs and came out of a (proven) cross and line breeding and was started and trained by some top hands, but she is not hog dog material, doesn't mean her offspring wouldn't carry her range and other desirable traits, or they mite all turn out bad... She's a 2.5yr old long range help dog basically...
So does that mean that just cuz my gyp is junk she can't throw offspring equal to the rest of her siblings? If I line breed her it will produce junk because she is not equivalent to the rest of the line? Explain that because she carries the same blood... But not the same level of dog... So if what Ur saying is accurate just because this one dog didn't turn out the dog shouldn't b bred no matter how good the dogs she came from are... Even tho she has the exact same blood as all the jam up proven dogs she came out of? I wanted to breed her into my stock for the range and fact that she's not rough, but if your theory is correct then she shouldn't b bred cuz she will produce junk despite her well renowned bloodlines...and wat about all the other good dogs that their lines were not recorded? I don't buy that.. Just my opinion but I believe line breeding is more of a pride and satisfaction thing than anything but certain lines are better for certain things and it raises the odds of having good dogs throughout the life of the breeding program but it's not a guarantee and not a (cure all) for having good dogs every time, that's why linebreeders cull so hard... Cuz all of them don't carry the characteristics of the blood.

You really believe this? Please explain...

How do "train" that dog to roll out 1/2 mile, 1 mile, etc... looking for a hog?

How do you "train" that dog to stick with the hog mile after mile when the hog runs?

How do "train" that dog to take a track several hours old and run with it?

I'm 100% percent believer in Reuben's signature line "A hunting dog is born not made".

We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over.

X2

You got to love it yet another big but serious question when it comes to line breeding and out crossing.  It certainly does not mean she cannot produce greatness .  To me what it means is you need to pay close attention to how you breed this gyp.

1. and most important. She comes from a high percentage liter of proven line breeding and crosses !
2.She is not a hang around dog she gets outs and gets gone with the find dogs and helps when the hog is bayed.!  So she is not a cull .  She is a inbetween type of dog.  But still only 2.5 years old that is still young really most dogs are not finished till they are 3-4 years old so who is to say she will not just be a later shower !
3. You said she has desirable traits .

Out of all of this and from what I read and I don't know the dog just what I see here the main thing is she comes from a high percentage liter of proven line breeding and crossing.  Two big keys in my mind right there.

If she was mine I don't think I would take her back into the main family but I would find me a proven cross for her and a dog that has what she is lacking and I would breed her just to see.  The main key here in my opinion is the high percentage liter first off and then the proven dogs she comes from .  If the liter was not high high percentage I would say no myself .  Take her out then if the pups work out take them back into the family.

Just me man ...........

"We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over."

Right on the head , right on the head !!!!!

If it is there its there if it is not its not !!!  That simple!

I do believe the opposite a dog can be ruined by the way it is trained !

Noelle,

The Molly gyp is not line bred or out of a proven cross. She's a grandaughter to Tweety/Winchester from a one time cross to a 3/4 bmc x 1/4 plott from out in West Texas. None of these dogs are line bred... that's what this whole post is about.

I'm starting from scratch with one female and two males... all proven producers. I'm going to take the best of the best from here on out and line breed back to each other. It's all in the beginning stages. ;)

The dog I started  with was a dog i called Rambo he was born in a 1991. He was line breed when I got him,and had a bitch called puddin in hIm 4 TI
es. I have a gyp on my place that has Rambo  in,her 4 times and puddin in her 5 times. Puddin  was a great lead dog on cows cold nose easy to handle don't talk to her to loud. The gyp I got matchs her to a T. I out crossed this got with a dog called bear of Bob Owen's  the pups are turning out pretty fair.

Man, I don't even know where to start with your post.  First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint and you stand just as good a chance of bringing only her undesirable traits in as you do her good qualities.  I'm honestly a bit confused...one post you mention how good she is, next post she "was" good but now only hunts with a particular dog of your and now she's a long range help dog.  Why would you even CONSIDER breeding her?

What I talked about in my original post was the foundation dogs of a breeding program.  Again...start with trash, end up with trash.  I believe in breeding tight and outcrossing only when necessary.  Outcrossing a tight line has the potential to produce some excellent dogs, but it comes with risk.

The most important aspect of ANY breeding program is to not be kennel blind about the dogs in front of you. 

As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree.  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them.  It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are.  Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed.  I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs.

shsu...pm me

good  thread ....... you  know  if  we  had all the  answers  to  breeding  top dogs they  wouldn't  be  worth  30 cents a  piece ......

 i do believe  your  better  success  comes  the  from  trying  to  clone  and  exceptional dog through line  breeding not the  line  but that  dogs offspring .....

i don't believe  you can  breed all top  dogs and  all top or 99% of  top  dogs  come  from  lesser  parents  so breeding the  best  to the  very  best  doesn't  mean  your  more likely  to  get that  exceptional dog especailly  in  unrelated  blooded  dogs ..... just  breeding a  line  of  dogs  may  get  you more  of the  same  but breeding close  related  offspring of an exceptional dog of that line  may  just  push  it  to something better  .......

with  my  rambling  read  my  first  line  again ,,,,, ;D

Simply put...i would rather breed to an average dog from a long line of above average line bred dogs  than to an above average dog from a long line of average open bred dogs. But only do it as a necessity  and not make a habit of it because this will eventually lower the quality of the dogs if  it becomes a common practice.

To me, when breeding strike dogs, all the dogs used for breeding should be dogs that can do it alone. This way I would  know that all the bases were covered. I say this because I don't understand all i need to know about breeding better dogs, therefore, the logical thing to do is to breed the best to the best from a good line of dogs. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Glad you joined in, Larry and I agree with your points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the foundation dog of your line and the dog you strive to reproduce is your old Blackie dog, correct?

Man, I don't even know where to start with your post.  First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint and you stand just as good a chance of bringing only her undesirable traits in as you do her good qualities.  I'm honestly a bit confused...one post you mention how good she is, next post she "was" good but now only hunts with a particular dog of your and now she's a long range help dog.  Why would you even CONSIDER breeding her?

What I talked about in my original post was the foundation dogs of a breeding program.  Again...start with trash, end up with trash.  I believe in breeding tight and outcrossing only when necessary.  Outcrossing a tight line has the potential to produce some excellent dogs, but it comes with risk.

The most important aspect of ANY breeding program is to not be kennel blind about the dogs in front of you.  

As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree.  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them.  It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are.  Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed.  I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs.
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 I recall saying she is a long range help dog and that's it... She won't find hogs and won't go to a bay unless she's 50yds away and then she mite not!!! And far as range goes it does no good to go a mile and don't ever find hogs that good dogs at 200yds picked up she ran past... Whether it was a one time cross or not I heard so much about the Winchester/tweety/brandy/hunter and all the other dogs of Kin to her and was really excited but as you can tell I'm not excited anymore. She will find a hog every now and then on accident but that's not a hog dog to me. And Any dog that is taught the desire to want a hog bad enough will go out and find one, stay with it, bay it...just like a guy that wants a dog like that will sell his truck to buy one. Sure the breeding has alot to do with it but not everything. I bet most young dogs Runnin out a mile at 8mths old finding hogs have great bloodlines, and Ur prolly not training them anything, but I bet their Runnin with a mentor that's showin them the ropes! If Ur young dogs go out All on their own a mile and find a hog the first time with no training whatsoever the u sure as hell have something to brag about and I envy you and my whole outlook has changed. But if not I still think they have to have some training or an old dog to run with. I imagine all Cur dogs came from Workin dogs far enough back before they were crossed up and stuff like that. I got her cuz I heard good things about the breeding and wanted to possibly cross her with mine but I haven't, she was doin good when I got her I thought until I got a gps that told the truth, and hunted her with another dog and realized she wasn't doin nothin but Runnin a mile off in a straight line and younger dogs found hogs in front of her consistently it just took me a while to notice. Wasn't hunted with junk and was put all in hog sign. Sorry u got confused...I do believe a good dog Is born but a great dog is made and nothing is gonna change that opinion so mite as well jump back on track and everybody do things however they want to.

Mike I understood that you were breeding pups out of two of Ur dogs that were out of the same dogs and the background on the tweety dog is unknown so Ur basically starting a line breeding program recently
based on what she has proved and produced which is basically starting a line of dogs out of another line of dogs... I didn't mean that Molly was line bred sorry for the misunderstanding, just meant that she was suppose to be out of some proven dogs that y'all had bred and are starting to line breed off some of the same blood... No matter how good a dogs u breed there will always b culls... Unfortunately I got a cull I wish I coulda ended up with one that was as good as yalls are but she's just not and there could b dozens of factors as to why she isn't. No offense meant towards Ur dogs and I'm sure their good or u wouldn't b breeding them and everyone talkin so much good stuff about all of those dogs. I think I'm the one that is confused lol I thought u were breeding one of mollys littermates to a half sibling or something like that. Hope they turn out good and sorry for Gettin this all off track hope it gets back to the main subject

yes  blackie  was the  best  i  have  owned .....

he'd  go til  he  couldn't go anymore i'd  pick him  up and he'd fall over i've fed  him  laying  down in the  barn  several  times .....

he'd relay til i left him and  come  home he;d finally  quit and  come home ....


i'd let anyone run there dogs ona  track til there dogs give  it  up and  quit  it  turn  him loose  and he'd  most  of the time  bay the  hog  SOMEWHERE ...



i've seen him  get  bayed  on  scent  so old i  guess the  other  dog  would  go  to  him  and  not  bark ....i'd  get there  and  see  him  standing  there  barking at a  clump  of  brush  of  some  kind  and  a  hog  would  be  under  it  the  other  dogs  would  start  barking  when the  hog got  up  from  its  bed  where they could find  it ....





i believe  that  why  mine  has  done so well if  his  offsprings take just a  third  from him  they will  still be  decent  working  dogs


but i haven't had  another  blackie

when you started your breeding you found the best female you could find of his breed ?or was it of another breed

In my eariler postI thought she was the same stuff Mike was talking about.  Different story if not.

My best dog ever was named Yeller...He was to me what Blackie was to Larry.

When I tested my pups he totally surprised and impressed me. He was born great and he set the bar real high. He was a good hog dog at 7-8 months and a jam up hog dog at 12 months. I had another at the time that was almost as good but Yeller was on a higher level still...Yeller was 1/2 mtn cur and 1/2 bmc.

Even though he was my best I did not surround my breeding program around him for one reason. That was because of the no relations behind his pedigree. Instead I used his son who was 3/4 mtn cur. He started a little later than Yeller but he was finding his own hogs at 10 months old consistently. This pups name was buck and he was sire, grand sire, great great grandsire and uncle to most of my dogs. I used him because it narrowed down the gene pool with him and I still had yeller in on the deal. I never bred back to a bmc again so each generation kept diluting the BMC and the reason why I used the bmc to begin with was to bring size and a tighter mouth.

I also kept about half of the pack pure mtn cur.

I have had very good strike dogs but yeller was still the best for two reasons...he knew where to look for a hog and he knew where to find one...He also knew how to figure out a track and which way the hog or hogs went. He made it look easy...

This could be wrong but it is an opinion I have formed from my observations.
It has to do with being too far away from the norm and reproduction. Mother nature tends to bring all things towards a normal and we as human being will fight mother nature for whatever reason and the further from that norm the harder it is to reproduce it.

Yeller was pretty far off the norm with his intelligence for a hunting dog. This dog didn't just have a strong natural instinct but it seemed like he could reason. I had quite a few good dogs since him but not one like him.

Buck was Yellers son and he was born a coffee creamer color, I am talking about every hair on his body of this color which is unusual to have every hair the same color. He was born with green eyes and later they turned yellow. All his pigment was of the same shade and sort of pinkish which is also very unsual but he was a good hunting dog, but... he never reproduced a pup of his color or pigment. And this really surprised me because I line bred hard off of this dog. So, my personal theory on this is if it deviates to far from the norm it will be very hard to reproduce. I was not trying to reproduce his color or pigment but I figured it would pop up every now and then but never happened.

Just from that experience...it tells me that breeding can be very tricky. :o

These are my interpretations of my observations...right or wrong... ??? :)

Im glad Mr.Parker got on this post. In my opinion he has reached the pennacle of line breeding. Ive seen many of his dogs bred to Jagds, Plotts, Cats, BMC's, etc and almost every pup came out lookin like a Parker!!!! Whats that tell ya :o Them Parkers got some dominate blood or traits running threw them. Reuben good post I totally agree!!!!!  Noelle dont beat yourself up it seems like you got a pup you had high hopes for because of the bloodline it comes from and its not quite workin out. Maybe she will hit her stride and take off you never know with a dog. I seem to have a little more patience with my pups then most on here I usually Cull them at a year and a half sometimes maybe two. I do expect my pup to be baying a hog at 4 months old and running with my lead dogs at about 8 months. 

Just for the record the dog noelle keeps referring to was a better dog at 10-12 months old when Clay owned her then most people are feeding. She was RUN OVER BY A TRUCK AT PROBALY 60+ MPH!  It is an absolute miracle she is even alive.  You get tired of complaining about her having an off day let me know.

I sure would imagine that would have to b factored in with the way she is now ,  atleast if she was my dog and was doing that good at that young of a age and then got hit by a truck I would sure factor that in it might have hurt her but it didnt hurt her gene pool.

The hitch dog has a small not on er hip, but did not seem to favor it at all. That's not say it ain't mangled inside. It's been a good while since I've seen er.

Texashogdogs  Yes I'm sure it hurt her but she still runs off a mile and never gets sore or never limps so it must have messed her mind up to some extent but like u said it didn't mess up her gene pool...and I keep hearing this stuff about the dog but keep Bein told not to breed her... Because she isn't proven but I don't get the point behind that if her brothers sisters mother father and other Kin all turned out exceptional...

As said by Bryant,   First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint.

Reuben,If breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint then why worry bout trying to breed for better dogs at all? You said u bred for size and a tighter mouth on a certain cross why can't I breed her for her range and not Bein rough into my dogs that are real rough and range 500yds in hopes of having 800yd dogs that aren't quite as rough? That's a serious question not a smart a$$ comment btw

Bryant,
I meant her bloodlines were well renowned on here as well as some folks around I hunt with, I knew the Winchester dog and heard lots about the tweety dog and the brandy dog and all her littermates is what I meant by (well renowned ) and I said I would like to breed her into my line which is pretty tight woven, and Ur rite that would b a complete outcross, but I could also go breed her to a dog that would make the pups line bred and not a complete outcross pretty easily if I wanted to, but then that wouldn't be bringing an outcross into my line anymore... What's the point of line breeding if it's not to (mix the paint) and get better dogs in the end? There's always a chance to pick up the bad traits that's just natural, that's why there's culls, don't see how that makes it not rite to breed at all.  I have male a dog that's proved himself in the woods and as a sire to produce a high percentage of hog dogs just like him... He's not a common house hold name on the net like some are, but he's rarely not spoken of by anyone whose hunted with him much and he is the outcome of years of line breeding, his half sister is bred to him now and I had wanted to cross a male pup outta that litter to the Molly gyp to throw that new blood in cuz it's about that time. No he's not the best dog ever born and his pups won't go a mile and find hogs at 6mths old all by theirself like yours, but they all turn on about a yr old and go 5-600yds, find hogs, bark once and catch, and most are killed by 1.5yrs of age... Without getting a offensive answer I would like to know why not breed a rangy and not so rough dog into my dogs that have been line bred for years?

Matt-aggie,
Do u think the accident caused her to mentally b off track? Physically it did not, and again I hear great things about her so why not cross her into my dogs or into a dog in her own pedigree and try to reproduce
it? Her off days are getting more frequent but she will be culled at my house if I end up not using the blood, she won't ever be sold or change owners again too much controversy over it.

Noelle,

First off let me backup and set the record straight.  I never in any post stated that I had 6-month old pups that would "go a mile and find hogs."  What I DID say, is that I have some 6-month old pups who were specifically bred for independance and will roll out a mile deep given the chance.  The intention of my post was simply to point out how training has had no effect on these dogs...they do naturally what they were bred to do.  These puppies have not a clue what they're doing in the woods, only that something inside them drives them to want to find something.

In reference to linebreeding, I use the analogy of "mixing paint" for two reasons.  First off, mixing paint always produces an exact end product.  Secondly, two colors when mixed will always produce something somewhere in between.  Neither is true when breeding.  It's not as simple as taking nose from this dog, hunting drive from this dog, size from this one, etc.  When you make a breeding, you're bringing in everything about that dog (and that dogs parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc)  Be nice if we could single out only the good quailities, but that just doesn't happen.

As far as outcrossing an established line...my thoughts are this.  First, I will only outcross when totally necessary and mostly for health reasons (inbreeding depression) although there are times when you may want to bring in a desirable trait you find lacking.  When an outcross is to be made, I would *ONLY* breed to a dog from an established line who is better or at the very least as good as what you're already working with.  Remember, you're bringing in that dogs bad characteristics just as equally as his/her good.  That entire litter would be kept and evaluated to find which dog (if any) exhibit the intended trait without loosing whats already been established and that is the dog that will be bred back into the original line.

No form of breeding will produce litters in which all the dogs will be identical or litters that will all make the grade.

That's why I was wanting to breed her, she is nothing to brag about but her bloodlines must b because everyone here is spastic about them seems like, and like they said at a yr old she was great then got hit and now is not so great... Doesn't mean her genes are bad just means circumstances didn't let her reach her full potential possibly which is why I'm not basing the possibility of crossing her into mine off her own accomplishments, instead basing the blood off what everyone else has out of the same litter or same lines period, which seems to be the longer range I'm Lookin to throw in mine. But again I've never seen any of these dogs hunt only read about them on here mostly so it's hard to make a decision based just on here say which is why I haven't bred her since I've had her.

Sounds like u were claiming they do in Ur other post, I'm glad u cleared that up I was curious bout that lol  ;D no doubt it can b bred into them, but it can also taught with another lead dog... either or make good dogs, the combination of both make great dogs ;) jmo

I knew Winchester since he had his eyes open what do you want to Know? He was the best of the litter IMO most all his male littermates were kept until nearly a year of age (Remington, Colt, and forget the other males name at this moment, females were Trigger and Bailey) to weed out which one worked the best with his owner/breeders style of hunting. The owner of these dogs plus Tweety and her sister were going through a DiVORCE and the dogs and whole package went together to a Dog Broker that divided them up and sold them off.
 
Tweety speaks for herself, yeah may not know her exact parentage, but at this point with the rate she REPRODUCERS herself almost as good as cloning, its not really a neccesity to see her actuall parents even though I want to know the TRUTH about what dog that REPRODUCTIVE trait came from., just to satisfy questions I have.

Mike has a GOOD dog, and he has taken the time and effort into tracing and tracking the dogs history of these dogs because he has hunted with enough dogs over the years to recognize what he has, and trying to do a good job and keep a gene pool going to put these caliber of dogs out there.

noelle,

   In one post you say she is a cull, in the next post you say you want to breed her to your dogs.  I can't imagine how breeding a cull into your dogs will help what you have...  If she's a cull, do what needs doing. Simple as that.

A " lead dog " cant teach a dog to hunt... all it can do is help the other dog figure out exaclty what its looking for and what to do when it finds it.... the rest is up to the dog... all the hunt, drive, bottom, etc. cant be taught... the dog has to have it in them...  it doesnt matter how good of a lead dog you have, if the other dog doesnt have the " want to " .....

The dog may go out a mile with your "lead dog" but that doesnt make it a long range dog... its what the dog does on its own that shows what it really has....

I have a pup now that will go with long range dogs however far they go, but on her own is only hunting out to around 300 yards away...
but she consistently finds her own hogs and stays busy in the woods.... she may not have " it " yet, buts shes got alittle....  ;)

Just out of curiosity uglydog is there a possibility that Winchester and tweety had the same bloodlines? Did they both come from the same breeder or did i misread? I'm not that familiar with winchesters background that much before he moved to Travis house

Circle c, to me she is a cull but according to all of y'all y'all have jam up dogs out of the same litter and the whole line don't produce culls so which is it? It's a fine line between her Bein a cull and her bloodlines Bein a cull which is the point I'm trying to make.  She obviously has an excuse for not Bein great but are the others really that great? If they are then why knock this gyp out the breeding program because she got ran over? Everyone has all the answers but don't seem like anyone can answer the question at hand!!! Are her genes good or bad enough braggin and story tellin get the facts out there... She got ran over so ain't great big deal what about her bloodlines? Can she not produce good dogs just cuz she got ran over???

100% agree...

Noelle, where do read we have jam up dogs, great dogs, exceptional dogs?

Tweety is a good dog, Winchester was a good dog, their pups are good dogs... some of their grandpups are on their way to making good dogs. I haven't seen anyone claim them to be "great" dogs... you'll never see me brag on one of my dogs until it's dead and gone and earned bragging rights. ;)

Also, where did you read they don't produce culls?

There's your answer... why do keep debating the topic?

Cull her...

Thank u mike. I hate to judge her because of something that couldn't b helped but seems like it's the right thing to do... I'm just really confused cuz I don't think it has anything to do with her breeding as to why she's not that good

With all the posts and threads and interest in the dogs and from what everyone has to say  I guess I just assumed they were above average the way everyone talks... Didn't mean to put words in anyones mouth I'm not perfect sorry I jumped to the conclusion didn't mean u were braggin on them just seemed real popular so I figured they were. Not Bein a smart a$$ just misunderstood

You will never hear me say that all the dogs from that cross are jam up dogs.  Nor will you hear me say that my sister to your dog is a jam up dog. She is a dog with plenty of range and bottom, but she works a track slow, she is mouthy, and sure likes a deer.  Now, in her case, the good outweighs the bad for my situation.  However, I don't plan on breeding her.   Her brother, Hunter, is a very nice dog, one I would pay big money to have. He's the kinda dog I like.

That litter, in my opinion was like many, some good, some so-so, some not so good... all depends on who the person is that is evaluating them, and what they are looking for in a dog.

Noelle,

You want an answer and here is mine... If she comes from a good line of dogs and she is a good dog but is disabled due to an accident but she was going to be a good dog any you know that from what you saw before her accident... then she is breed worthy.

If I understand you correctly, she and the dogs in her back ground hunts 300 yards deeper than your line of dogs and they also aren't as gritty which are 2 traits you are hoping to get.

If it were me I wouldn't worry about the extra 300 yards but would be focusing at making sure I cut down on the grit. I see this as real hard to do because if you breed her enough to lower the grit your original strain will actually become more of the bloodline of the female in question. If that bloodline looks and acts like your bloodline except for the traits you desire... then it is not a bad thing and you will just have to cull hard because keeping the right pups is very important...otherwise why even try it...


It would be better to find a male or another female from the said bloodline to breed back to one of your best dogs if it is available. If not then breed the female... This is how I would do it if I were in your situation. I am guessing 3 generations to have it somewhat consistent and that is assuming the pups are picked correctly...And I would be trying to get back to my strain in those 3 generations and still keep the 2 traits that you are after.

If you are trying to develop a bloodline this is how I would attempt it.

If I wanted a few good dogs with the right traits then I would pick a few pups that carry the traits and be done with it.

Again, not saying this is the right way but this is how I would map it out.

Very informative Reuben thanks :)

I know exactly what Winchester is out of- Bell was his momm awhich comes from the Winfrey stock as I am sure Travis told you about, Pistol (was my dog for several years) was the sire, whom is by Ben and out Ellie who both belonged to Danny Hill of Needville, Tx. Danny is no longer with us but his father (Mr.Hill) can tell you the whereabout the others came from as he aquired them out of Cattle Working stock dogs, bred by cattle men.

Tweety came from a man that got the two females out of the litter at about 5-6 months of age, gave them one chance to work cattle, they did not hit the ground working cattle, they were both given to M.H. and He started Tweety them in the woods a week later. I was there on her first hunt, first hog. Not leash broke, not used to anybody, never seen or worked a hog in a pen or seen any kinda game. She went hunting with the big dogs, when we headed out. She was at the second hog in the creek get thrown around as were the other dogs. From that day forward she struck hogs, and never slows down. That was a few years ago and has been one of the most consistant dogs I have ever known. She is black, but her littermate is a classic Catahoula, markings, and was told thesedogs are from papered dogs- Catahoulas

Winchester Straight East Texas Brindle cur with a touch of BMC as Pistol's grandaddy was supposed a dog named Ben that nobody is allowed to say his name without getting in trouble. Thats what was told to Danny Hill and he even told it to me, as it was told to his father, Mr. Hill, whom is a respected man, whom nobody had any reason to lie.

So NO they are not related, but tweety made her first and many hunts with Winchester.

(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/travis1975/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif)

CULL ;D

I would have to agree with Reuben on this, If she is from good blood and was doing exceptional at a young age until this accident occured seems like a fit. If you do run short range, catch first dogs and need to add sum range and take away some grit seems like a good fit, From what Ive heard on this post a good portion of there bloodline turns out to have some range on them.

What I have not heard is how mouthy are these dogs yall keep talking about Tweety and Winchester and Tweetys off-spring???? Are they dead silent, yip a little, real mouthy?? just curious

. Brandy was yippy until she was a few years old, then pretty well went silent. Ruby goes between a little yippy to "damn, I wish she would shut up".  Some of the others are silent.

Tweety is dead silent. The grandpups I raised, Hunter and Striker, are dead silent on track. But when one is jumped or breaks bay, they will sing it a song while they're on it's tail. Once the hog pulls ahead of them, they'll shut up.

Good deal, I was curious I had never heard anyone mention it, I just assumed she was silent. Firgured you Texas guys didnt want that hog runnin to Mexico  ;)

Circle C I got a pup just like that about 50/50 he will yip behind it alot but sometimes he is dead silent.  ??? Its really a coin toss. His sister is that black gyp that looks similar to Tweety, shes dead silent. They both love a hog but will also chase a deer real fast. Slowly but surely that shock collar is changin there mind.

Matt

I also agree with Reuben .

You want an answer and here is mine... If she comes from a good line of dogs and she is a good dog but is disabled due to an accident but she was going to be a good dog any you know that from what you saw before her accident... then she is breed worthy.

Txhogdogs, I did not own her when she got hit, got her afterwards and she is not disabled physically but I think Mayb it messed her up mentally I don't know... Either way despite popular opinion I have decided to line breed her back to some original blood, keep a pair of pups, and if they turn out good I will breed the pups into my dogs, if they don't then I will know for sure that it's not a good cross... Thanks for the good advice from u and Reuben   :)

Your going to line breed her? what male are you going to use?

lmao thats classified information rite now...wont b a brother/sister cross or nothin but will b the same bloodline ;D

Ok I see.... ;D.  Is he black, long range?

from what I gather not extremely long range but not short either...havent personally hunted him but thats a future objective to see how he hunts first and foremost, and not black, dark brindle

Ha ha... nothing's classified. ;)

If you truly wanted to cross her back into the same bloodline, there's only one male dog in this area that would fit the bill. All the rest would only be a percentage of that blood from one side.

lol you did your homework too i see  ;) your rite It will b a percentage of blood from one side.. technically not 100% line breeding

I doubt he will breed hat dog and he his percentage. I don't  think the dog is breed worthy. He has not proved his self. Im sure after this post I will get a phone call. Bit its the truth. He is my friend so he will understand.

the dog in lufkin? after talkin to someone im not so sure the bloodlines on that dog are really out of the bloodlines anyway >:(

Did u have any suggestions chance? or mike?

Not my line of dogs just know several of them and hunted behind them. I'm  happy with my line so there no need to cross them into it. My suggestion  is if the dog you have out of that breed of dogs wichester or tweety does not fit your style would be to cull her and move on with the other crosses  you are making.  I personally  have no use for crossing or trying to make a super dog. I cat h hogs with the dogs That I inbreed.lol but to each there own. Maybe your breedings might work. But I dang sure would not breed a dog that i don't  like or am unsatisfied with. My wife has one she want let me cull he hunts great but i don't  like him he runs loose in my yard and when he turns his head the right way he will get his nuts cut cause he is,not going to Accidentally breed one of my bitch's but thats just me.

Hey Noelle someone said you have the theater pasture.

i agree chance, but too many people have commented about how good a dog she was BEFORE SHE GOT RAN OVER... I dont necessarily like her cuz she dont fit my bill but according to everyone else she was what i was looking for before she got hit, and i dont breed $h!t eaters either but i really think the bloodline deserves the benefit of the doubt in this case, If she was doin that good at a yr old then an accident caused her to be how she is today then i would like to get similar blood in her and let them pups prove theirself befor i kick out the idea of breeding mine to one of them pups, she would not b considered to be bred under normal circumstances and she just dont excite me although im sure she hunts as good as alot of (hog dogs) some folks are glad to have... she is physically fine but musta pinched a nerve to her brain about huntin, which again is not her fault and not a bad reflection on the bloodline...I was fixin to cull her before i got the whole story on her on here, now i think its a chance im willing to take, if all the pups are culled and not no good then ill have satisfied my mind about the cross, but i believe the breeding deserves a chance, the dog could throw the best pups the line has known you never know... she came out of (proven producers) so culling her as a one time brood gyp kinda contradicts the whole logic behind linebreeding wouldnt you say ;)

Well what will you breed her too?

yes i do... been workin hogs in there about 7yrs, only my second yr over it tho

bryant, thought i had a perfect match up outta lufkin, but hesitant on the authenticity now, chance mentioned a dog earlier, im thinkin he meant chester and thats a possibility as well but idk im open to any suggestions u have.

I hunted in there with the manager of it event the last 2 years I did not know,anyone else was hunting  it but if you say so I guess you did.
We have land several 100 acres that join it hut we don't  dog it we would get on ya'll  or the Baldwin if we did.  We are told to trap everything  and remove OT not what I want to do. Because I used to work lots of hogs in there.

I been huntin in there and knowin johnny don for years as a member and a friend, and a good friend of mine was over it for 3 yrs and didnt allow any dog huntin except me occasionally then this will b my second yr over it... for a long time it was me and turkey and them hog huntin it and i believe they worked them as well, could b mistaken about that tho, you have the small lease between the forest and the baldwin back in there?

Hey Chance, seems like everytime I talk to David Cochran or Jody Stone we get off talking about that monster of a red hog yall hated in there and didn't get caught. David says I owe that hog one more go.

I think the red hog got jermey David and Jody they had permission  to hunt my place form me. I caught a real good Barr with Jody and jermey one time on there not sure if David was with US bit he might have been. If I got spanked in there I went back with enough  dog power to end that. Turkey and brother has probably cut more hogs in them than anyone I know and they had the dog power to put on them runners. It might take all day but it got done. Did not know you were on the board welcome. Send me your number and that way when them hogs start something  property I cam let you know to dog them out of there.

Noelle,

I know of a dog about two hours from you who is a good dog. He is mtn  cur/bmc  cross and he will find a hog if it is anywhere close. Will not quit a track and will go the distance. Hunts at a lope and you will see him now and then. He is colored like bmc and he is natural bobtailed. Silent on track and hunts like my old strain of mtn curs . He is built right and the right size. It would be an out cross but a few pups like him would make it worthwhile. If interested email me.

What owner and what dog outta Lufkin?  PM if you don't want to open post.      (Just Curious).

That's a fact chance, Murray and brother worked a whole lot of hogs in there and though we hunted it together I only hunted with them once but I heard they had some sure nuff hog dogs, we all got run off that lease over folks whining bout all the hogs and one of the guys took it over and allowed no hog huntin  for 3 yrs and would kill every dog they saw and made a bad name out of the place far as hog huntin goes and to clear the record I'm a different guy and work 30-40 a yr in there and an honest hunters dogs are safe

You never know Miles, Mike might  have planted one of those good colored dogs over at Chances house,  ;) ;D, right in your back yard

Haha you musta figured me out Brit. Just keepin tabs on how close the danger is lurking around here.  :laugh:

I hunted with them for along time and yes sir they had the dog power to put a bay at the end of a race and they did it with loose baying dogs. But Turkey  is ate up with hog hunting knowledge  some people just have it natural. The man knows dogs and hunting. That lab he used for a catch dog is still one of the best I ever seen.
Me and brother  might not see eye to eye no more but he had some good dogs.

ive been watchin the post on here what people write an some i agree 100% an the other well i just shake my head. But i was the last one to own winchester an people have ask how did he hunt lets just say you wasent makin a short hunt you let him go he was all hunt an no play. when he let that bull horn mouth open go to him there was no guessin let the bulldog do the wk. He was one of a kind an i own one male an four female out of him it will be a very long time till i own another one like him an yes he is missed.....

When a flaw crops up I would introduce the other line.If not dont fix it if it aint broke. But then again when one is striving for perfection you may want to put him in, produce some great and greater dogs.

Well I know this topic has been gone for awhile now but i thought i'd give you a little update on this dog that seemed to stir so much up...  I traded for this dog not long after all this happened simply wanting the blood line seein as I live in the panhandle and do believe the best lines of dogs do come from back east... I let her just be a ranch dog for the first six mnths and due to being down a dog one night I took her with my dogs.  She never showed me any lack of hunt for the next two mnths before I quit her so I could breed my lead dog to her.  She now has two black pups, four dark brindled, and a saddleback that are six weeks of age.  I will post pics of her and the pups tomm.  Here is my Clyde dog that she was bred to and I am very excited to see what the future holds for these pups.

(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/dogs067.jpg)

That's good to hear, I was wondering what happened her. Post some pics when you get a chance, I haven't seen her since she was a year old.

What's your Clyde dog out of?

Good ol' Clyde; maybe once in my life I might have a dog that hunts like that! Hope the best for your litter; if anybody can make them dogs it's you. Take care.

Clyde is for what I know mainly cat and mtn cur, out of a line of dogs that hunted cows up here in the canyon country... loose baying, longer ranging dog that works real fast which at times upsets me but I've learned to live with that

here is a few pics of her and the pups
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/Mobile%20Uploads/0727121236.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/Mobile%20Uploads/0724121516.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/Mobile%20Uploads/0727121338.jpg)

(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/Mobile%20Uploads/0710121631.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa354/mkader/Mobile%20Uploads/0710121630.jpg)

thanks for the kind words... i dont know about that whole makin a dog thing but i appreciate it... pm sent

I just read this whole post and that was a good read! Thanks for sharing guys!

molly looks allot better now than when i got her. I dont think she was fed and wormed right before i got her... glad she is doing well now.

Good lookin pups! Keep us updated on their progress.

I wouldn't go with a total outcross...I would use a dog with at least 50% relations as the one to bring hybrid vigor...otherwise you stand to lose some of what you have gained...but the other half of breeding good to great line bred dogs is making sure the best specimens are identified and used for breeding...

Well Mike here is Dommina all growled up.

(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/motocotton11/0af6c351.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/motocotton11/e74f8e61.jpg)

Here is my Aunt Jamima

(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/motocotton11/33d6ba49.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/motocotton11/86b72f8c.jpg)

How does the white one hunt, always wondered if there was gonna be a difference in how they turned out?

She is not afraid to look around and stays busy. I have only been in the woods with her a couple of times. She is my wife's dog and I just got the all clear to take her even if she don't go  :o so, I can give you a more detailed report in a month or so. She likes to use her nose and run that's for sure.

Thomas, they both look real good. I'm looking forward to starting mine when it cools off.

mike I wish you the best with your breedings , Im also working on the same thing with my loftin bred dogs , Im excited to see what this brings to the table , I have sure been doing alot of studying on the line breeding subject to try to learn as much as possible