EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

can some of yall post some pics of a leopard dog? not a catahula tho? or is there a diff? some say there is ,some say there aint.

I say there is I do not on one or never owned one but boy I sure got to work cattle behind some dang good leps. They had good ears and top nots on there heads most were cracked eyed not blue!! These dogs would spin a whole in the ground in front of a herd of cows!! They did not have block heads!!

I agree, there is a difference, don't have pics of one but do have a cat. I think true leps even had a double coat, from what I've been told. As in the true leopard cur.

i have heard on this site there is a leopard dog that is not a catahoula but i have never found on the net where it is a different breed?? someone inform me too. 8)

There is a what is called leopard dog and it is not a cat. Have not seen any good ones as of late. But about 10 or 15 years ago there use be some. And like Chance said they where h@!! on wheels.

I beleave the extra coat deal!! Them dogs that I worked behind if you crab them by there collar old sticky gunk would be all over there collars!!
I now where there are a few and the man will not breed them and said his blood will die with him!! I will see if he will let me take a picture of one but this old man is sure funny about them 3 dogs!! I know one of them has to be atleat 15 years old!!

please do take tha pic. a guy who comes to my work swears by em> says he has "tru full blood leopardss" i never seen em and he wants to trade my 14mth old mt curr gyp for one of his leopards> i just dont want anymore freakin pups. what yall think????

Not knowing who he is or his dogs. That is going to have to be your call.

i know he catches pigs, lots of em to. he just hunts diff than i do. he wants his dogs close, i want mine gone. id hunt with a rifle if i wanted to find tha pigs myself.

there is deffinatly a difference, i have owned both. the american leopard cur is more houndy, colder nosed, fast, and most are open mouthed on track.  they come colored same as catahoulas tho. leopard and black and tan.  i think i have a pic. of my old black and tan leopard i will try and post later.

  I like them!  but they are same as every other breed, UKC recognized them as a breed, and the price went thru the roof and hence forth breeding for$$$.  but there are some good uns out there just do your home work.  i would defenitly give one a try.  my buddy bought theone i used to have and he is totaly silent in track, and built about as good as you can get.

What would this one be? (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/ETHHUNTERS/9-8-201075507AM.jpg)

Yeah i agree there is a difference.  The leopard dogs ive been around are catsxcurs somewhere aways back.  damn good working dog but they always seem coyote acting and hard headed.  

I have always been told from guys that have them that they are a Cat x Black Mouth Curr.  I have a buddy with what he calls leopard pups on ground now and that is what they are.

The people I grew up around called all spoted cur dogs leopards. In La. and Miss. they called the spoted dogs leopards and the solid colored dogs catahoulas. Now days, the spoted stock dogs are catahoulas and the american leopard curs are the east coast, open on track, tree dogs. They are said to of been around for many years but were very rare untill Richard McDuffie brought them back starting in the 60's. The funny part is, the three main dogs he used came out of Texas. A reliable source told me they came from Cowboy Williams and were July Catahoula crosses. That might be the reason for the double coat. The UKC registers the as American Leopard Hounds.

(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/hog-hunter/4561bc71.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/hog-hunter/35249_1564523550805_1166872315_31664048_4115231_n.jpg) here is one my leopard dogs

x2

The first person I heard call the spoted dogs catahoulas was Tom Stogehill. He bought lots of pups from my Dad in the early 60's. They left the house as leopards and ended up catahoulas. He shipped lots of them to South America.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanLeopardHoundRevisedJanuary12009

American Leopard Hounds are believed to be the descendants of dogs that were brought to the new world by Spanish conquistadors and crossed with native Mexican dogs. Early American settlers brought Leopard dogs from Mexico to hunt bear.

The Leopard Cur was recognized by UKC on November 1, 1998. The breed name was changed to American Leopard Hound May 1, 2008.

From what there saying the changed the name for leopard curs??? Also didn't they change the name of catahoula curs to leopard catahoula or just catahoula??

Very interesting bit of info here bigo. And yes, they were recategorized in 2008 (I think) in the UKC registry from cur to hound after the breeders petitioned them. They did this to compete against the hounds in UKC competitions.

A friend of mine owned and hog hunted with a full blooded Leopard cur. That dog was he!! on wheels! A hog hunting machine!
He had a double coat of hair and I think that is what killed him. I was sick about it because that dog was special in my eyes and he died in my yard where my buddy kept him after finding and baying hogs all day one summer!
It was either his dad or his cousin that got the dog from Cowboy Williams but Im not sure.
Its all hearsay and I will try and verify the story with my buddy but I do know one thing for sure; That dog was a cold nosed, silent tracking, double coated hog finding machine!

anyone ever heard where the two different breeds came from? difference in bloodline/breeding? ive googled my heart out before and never come up with anything. i believe there is a cur type and a hound type.  i think the two have to have common blood somewhere down the line.  some say not, but noone has ever produced records to disprove it.

A little shot of the old time July would help most lines of curs these days. I have found one in La. and am thinking about trying some crosses. All lines of curs have all kinds of stuff put in them over the years. The old new and improved trick. The only thing, some people are honest about it and some are not. Ray Charles could look at some of the registered Dogs these days and see it.

Here are some interesting reading
http://www.catahoulaleopard.com/homepg.htm

According some other info on/linked from this site & ARF site with pictures & facts that date back 1950s and some of the dogs that came out of MS weren't alowed into the NALC (National association of Lousiana Catahoula) registery, could it be possible those spotted dogs that were not allowed to be called Catahoulas by NALC be simply dubbed as the "Leopard dogs"?
 
Read this- pictures/publications to go with article at the link below 

http://animalresearchfoundation.com/nalc_mystique.htm
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had to share this, there were some great old PICTURES & ARTICLES, facts and history about Catahoulas and Cowdog Rodeos too!

UNVEILING THE NALC MYSTIQUE

 By Al Walker, ARF Genealogist & Registrar

 

For our many friends who are not familiar with the “NALC”, it is the acronym for the “National Association of Louisiana Catahoulas” (an organization that was established by Mrs. J. S. [Betty Ann] Eaves, Denham Springs, Louisiana, incorporated in 1977, in memory of her father, Kline Rushing, founder of “Tophand Kennel”).

For a quarter of a century, Ms. Eaves has deliberately withheld information in regards to her institution that we believe many would like to know.  What are some of the facts that Mrs. Eaves would rather you not ever learn?  Now that I have your attention, let us start with the biggest fact of all, the Animal Research Foundation [ARF].  As you read the brief history about the NALC, in their official NALC information pack, there is no mention of the Animal Research Foundation [ARF], or of Mr. Tom D. Stodghill, or of his work to be the first to recognize and register the [Louisiana] Catahoula Leopard. Therefore, the most important fact of NALC’s history has been blacked out for very obvious reasons – “Tophand Kennel”, NALC-registered dogs.

For, you see, one of their rules and guidelines for registration is that the Catahoula must be of Louisiana background and ancestry.  Further, they are requiring you, the applicant, to provide the names and date of birth of the sire, dam, grandsires and granddames of the dog to be registered (also, the names, addresses and phone numbers of their owners, etc., etc., etc.)  As we delve deeper into the realm of “Tophand Kennel”, we will find that the rules that have been set for you are not the ones she and her father would apply to themselves.  More on this later.   

For those who are not familiar with “Mr. Tom”, as he was affectionately known by his friends, he was the Founder of the Animal Research Foundation [ARF], and he was the first to register the “Catahoula Leopard”, September 30, 1951, at the insistence of Mr. V.T. Williams of Thornton, Texas, and Mr. Orval Bates.  As various Catahoula breeders learned of the Animal Research Foundation and Mr. Stodghill’s work, they brought their dogs in to be field tested, and to be registered.  And, every October, Mr. Tom put on a “Cowdog Rodeo” so that many breeders could compete and show off what their dogs could do.

 

Other than V. T. Williams and Orval Bates, who were some of these early Catahoula pioneers? They were men like J. P. Sparks, S & J Ranch, Wilberton, Oklahoma, W. T. Foster, Mt. Pleasant, Texas, Claude Allen, Mt. Pleasant, Texas, Leon Flagg, Ellenton, Florida, Jack Duncan, Archie, Missouri, James McCoig, White Pine, Tennessee, Homer Kennedy, Hamilton, Georgia, C. C. Wooldridge, Roswell, New Mexico, Kenny Reeves, Reeves, Louisiana, Gene Ward,  Stamps,  Arkansas,    J. Paul Coco, Marksville, Louisiana, James L. Moore, Dale, Texas, J. P. Traxler, Sr. & Vernon Traxler, Ferriday, Louisiana, Aubrey Jones, Bryan, Texas, Richard J. Bertrand, Louisiana, Claude Lively, Louisiana, and many others.

 
(Orval Bates’ Catahoula price list, c. 1952)

 

Approximately twenty years later, January 2, 1971, Kline Rushing, Tophand Kennel, brought his first Catahoulas to the ARF, so that he could ARF-register him with the Foundation.  The dog’s name was “Tophand Tiger”, ARF No. 2160, a male out of “Rock Jr.” and “Sue”.  Up until that time, like all the other Catahoula breeders, none of Mr. Kline Rushing’s Catahoulas were registered, and the first dogs registered had no birth dates for the sire, dam, grandsires, or granddams, much less have a listing of the names, addresses and phone numbers for the owners. Further, not all of “Tophand Kennel” dogs have pedigrees with exclusive Louisiana roots, i.e., “Tophand Cat’s” grandmother was “Lady” [see ARF No. 2161], owned by Joe Faust of Woodville, Mississippi. Another was “Tophand Jack’s” grandmother, named “Widow Brown” [see ARF No. 2202], owned by James Rimes of Magnolia, Mississippi. And, “Tophand Pat”, ARF No. 2214, was born in Mississippi, and so were her parents and grandparents, etc.

 



       (Tophand Tiger,  owned by Kline Rushing)

ARF Registration/Pedigree for Tophand Tiger


 

ARF Registration/Pedigree for Tophand Cat



ARF Registration/Pedigree for Tophand Jack



ARF Registration/Pedigree for Tophand Pat



    (below - Tophand Cat owned by Kline Rushing)
Friends, Kline Rushing, “Tophand Kennel’s” owner, could not meet the criteria that his daughter is expecting you to conform to.  Further,   January 1972, Mrs. J. S. [Betty Ann] Eaves, began filling out the ARF Certified Pedigrees for “Tophand Kennels”, as well as for many of their customers, and, she, too, could not supply a complete history on many of the dogs that she registered.  Therefore, between January 2, 1971, through May 18, 1977, “Tophand Kennels”, Kline Rushing and Mrs. J. S. [Betty Ann] Eaves, registered 479 Catahoulas with the Animal Research Foundation.  [From the ARF archives, notice the original ARF Certified Pedigrees that were filled out by Mr. Kline Rushing or his daughter, Mrs. J. S. Eaves, listing “Tophand” dogs.]

As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Stodghill held a “Cowdog Rodeo” each fall, in October.  In October of 1974, Mr. Stodghill advertised the Animal Research Foundation Cowdog Trials for Oct. 26 & 27, to be held at the Belmeade Ranch.  Prior to this event, it was advertised  that breeders and dealers and cowdog enthusiasts from Louisiana, Oklahoma, Florida, Arkansas and Texas, as well as from other parts, would be there to participate in a big parade and prize money  - beginning at Tom Stodghill Ranch, through Terrell, and on to Belmeade Ranch.  Part of the Louisiana delegation was Kline Rushing, his daughter Betty Ann Eaves, and their dogs. [See Terrell Tribune, October 15, 1974 Edition – Photo of Mr. Kline Rushing, Betty Ann, holding four of their Catahoulas, ready to compete in the Cowdog rodeo.]

 
(Article from Terrell Tribune, Terrell Texas, October 15, 1974 featuring Kline Rushing & Betty Ann Eaves)

According to Bill Estes [Stodghill’s Animal Research Magazine, Winter 1974 – 75, 43rd Edition], “If you missed the COWDOG TRIALS, you missed your chance of the year to see some of the top dogs in action.  All major breeds were well represented and competition was close and keen.”  However, did “Tophand Kennel” do well at the Animal Research Foundation Cowdog Trials?  If you are a NALC member, why not ask Betty Ann – see if she remembers.

Dear reader, I hope by now you can see that we are able to unveil the NALC mystique.  Regardless of Betty Ann’s attitude towards the ARF, the ARF has an excellent historical record of her dogs.  And, it is too bad that many NALC patrons have been treated unjustly – requiring that all their dogs have a Louisiana pedigree, when many of her dogs did not.   

It is wonderful that the Louisiana State Legislature made the Catahoula its State canine; however, it is tragic that the NALC discriminates against all other Catahoula owners who do not have a Louisiana pedigree  [Kline Rushing and Mrs. J. S. Eaves being the exception].  Yes, there are just as good Catahoulas in California, Alaska, Canada, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida, Mexico, South America, New York, etc., as in Louisiana.  Friend, call it what you will, but in my book, this is the height of NALC hypocrisy. One day, Ms. Eaves’ strangle- hold on the NALC will come to an end.  Her power grab and control will come to a close, and how will she be remembered when people see her picture on the wall?  I don’t say this to embarrass her, or the good people who work for the NALC, but the truth is going to surface whether or not any NALC representative wants to face it. The bottom line is that she is living in denial, and denial ain’t no river in Egypt.  Today, the records clearly show that the NALC has been built on a fraudulent foundation; therefore, I believe it is now time for Mrs. Eaves to come clean with her members, by stating that –

 

1.   All 479 of the original “Tophand Kennel” dogs were ARF registered, by Mr. Tom D. Stodghill, ARF Founder, from January 2, 1971 to May 18, 1977.

2.    Not all “Tophand Kennel” dogs had pedigrees, originating from Louisiana.

3.    “Tophand Kennel” was just one of many kennels that bred and raised Catahoulas.

4.    The ARF was the first to register the Catahoula, in 1951.

5.   The ARF was the first to write the history on the Catahoula Leopard, 1983.

6.   The ARF was the first to hold organized Cowdog Trials, to exhibit the working abilities of the Catahoula Leopard.

7.   The ARF provided Mr. Kline Rushing, and his daughter, Mrs. J. S. [Betty Ann] Eaves, NALC’s Founder, with valuable breed information that could not have been obtained elsewhere.

8.   The NALC’s existence would have been more difficult had it not been for the lifetime work of Mr. Stodghill’s research on the Catahoula, and his creativity in the development of the Cowdog Trials.

9.   The Animal Research Magazine was one of the most sought after dog journals for Catahoula breed information.

10. The ARF provided the NALC impetus to create the building blocks of a specific breed registry.

   

As Mr. Stodghill once said, “The ARF is often imitated, but never duplicated.”  Yes, Mr. Stodghill provided a wealth of information to Mr. Rushing and his daughter; therefore, they made many trips to ARF headquarters to get information. Where did Mr. Tom get his information?  Mr. Tom spent hours-on-end, on the phone or in person, with individuals [especially with the old-timers] in regards to the Catahoula. As the 1980’s dawned, he sent his notes to Ms. Linda Rorem so that she could start putting his book together; however, some very important editing was overlooked, i.e., the name of Mrs. Eaves ended up as “Reeves”, and Mr. Rushing’s first name was spelled with a “C”, rather than with a “K”, for Kline. [I apologize for such simple mistakes; it is very important that people’s names are spelled correctly.] In 1983, when his book was printed, he was pleased that he had something in writing that he could share with the Catahoula enthusiast. However, as I talked with Tom, there was much more that he could have added, but, with a limited budget and a big heart, he sent it off to press.


(Tom Stodghill, c. 1983)

I remember the day when his book finally arrived from the printer, how pleased he was – we took a photo of him, standing by the many cases of books, with a sample book in his hands.  A few weeks later, he received a check from the American Kennel Club [AKC], wanting to purchase the book for their library. [He never deposited the check; therefore, the original AKC check is in the ARF archives. However, for your viewing, here is a copy of the check.]

 

Do we have copies of Mr. Stodghill’s book – “History of Catahoula Leopard Cowdogs”?  Yes, we do!  The book is available for $20.00, postage and handling included.  To receive a 25% discount, double-register your NALC-Catahoula with the ARF, and we will send it to you along with your ARF Certificate of Registration.

 

CATAHOULA LEOPARD COWDOGS

 By Tom D. Stodghill (1903-1989)
Genealogist of the Animal Research Foundation

 [This story is taken from TDS’s book, “History of Catahoula Leopard Cowdogs.]

 I wish to thank all my many friends and customers that have helped me to make the “ARF Cowdog Magazine” a reality.  I am very sure this is the only magazine published in the entire world by a man that has spent his entire life on a farm and had to depend on livestock and farming for a living.  I know there has been many mistakes in the magazine which should have been corrected.

 The day I should have been proof reading the first issue, a storm blew off the roof of my house, and I had to have a new roof put on my house, and the printer had to do his own proof reading.  When the second edition came, we were bailing hay and combining grain, and I still was too rushed for time to proof read the copy like I should have, and there was always more letters to write than I can possibly write.  Also, I have a lot of visitors, and when they drive across two or three states, or drive all the way from Canada, or Mexico, you can’t make them wait.

 When my neighbors have a wild cow to get away, and they can’t catch her on a horse and they want a dog to trail that cow, and put her out of the brush where they can rope her, I can’t get them to wait.  They want that cow caught right then.  It takes a lot of experience and time to know just which dog and which man to send on a job like that.

 I thought I knew all there was to know about cattle and dogs, but I found out there was a lot of difference in cattle.  Just as the fall edition of the Magazine was to go to press, and I was due to work in my office,  I received a long-distance call from a man that had 700 head of Black Angus cattle, and the grass was so tall he was having trouble finding the baby calves to ear tag the day they were born.  What he wanted was a dog that could work all day in the tall grass, hunt those baby calves, and keep up with a horse.  As I had used dogs all my life, I never had any trouble finding a baby calf, or when a cow would hide her calf.  All there was to it was to put Shep after the cow and make Shep take it easy, and the cow would go to her calf.

 One day, Mr. Floyd Ramsey gave me the rush on this deal; he wanted two dogs as quick as possible, to ship to his ranch in Kansas.  He wanted the dogs to go by plane, and he wanted me to send a man to work the dogs the first day.  As he was paying all the expenses by air, I decided to go myself instead of sending Mr. Orval Bates or Mr. Napoleon Vonner.

 After considering the tall grass and the number of cattle, I decided to carry a pair of Catahoula Leopard Cowdogs that were big and powerful, and I knew that would work all day regardless of how heavy the grass was.  In the past, I have had trouble with small dogs giving out in the river bottom trying to keep up with a horse in heavy weeds and tall Johnson grass, and I knew the Catahoulas would change their style of work to fit almost any condition, and there wasn’t much danger of the dogs giving out.

 I left Love Field Airport in Dallas at 1:00 PM and arrived at Wichita, Kansas, at 3:00 PM.  Mr. Ramsey’s ranch manager met me at the airport.  It was about an hour drive to the Ramsey ranch; when we arrived, they were putting up silage.  It was late that evening when we saddled the horses and rode out to the pasture where the cattle and calves were.  There wasn’t a tree in sight, and you could see ten miles in any direction.  The grass looked like our prairie hay; it was higher than a calf’s back, and to find the calf, you had to ride almost upon it before you saw it.

 All the cattle I ever worked before would always go to their calf when a dog got after them, but not those Black Angus cows.  They would chase the dogs, and that was just what the dogs wanted the cows to do, and towards the feed lot the dogs went.  However, the dogs were not doing what the ranch manager expected; he intended that the dogs leave the cows alone and that they find the calves.  Since Mr. Ramsey’s cattle had never been worked by dogs before, they would paw the dogs, kick at the dogs, butt at the dogs and do anything but go to their calves.  Many of the cows were heavy with calf, or already had calves, and the ranch manager wouldn’t let me train the cows to be worked with a dog.  I called the dogs to me and here came those Angus cows from all directions.  I thought Brahma cattle were hard to work, but Brahmas are much more intelligent and easier to work than Angus cattle.  I still don’t know who was confused more, me or the dogs.  I don’t believe I would have had any trouble if I had been by myself and could have worked the cows like they were mine.  I would have let the dogs pen the Angus heifers, and, as the cows bellowed for their calves, I would have turned them out and followed them to their calves.

 Soon, it was evident that all I could do was quit and listen and try to get the ranch manager to let the dogs train the cows.  The next day, we went about five miles to another pasture where there were all cows and no calves.  On our way, I talked him into letting me pen the cows with the dogs.  The cows had never been penned with dogs; therefore, I wanted to train the cows to work with a dog before they had calves.  Everything went good until we got the cows to the gate, and when we started to open the gate, riding by the cows on a horse caused the cows to break and run.  The dogs didn’t rush the cattle, but would have put the cows back through the gate if they had been let alone.

 The ranch manger wanted to know if that was the way you “Damn people in Texas” worked cattle.  I told him it sure was, and if the cattle were in the timber and if the dogs didn’t stay with them, we just kill a dog like that in Texas.  We wanted a dog that would get with them and stay.  If the dogs had been left alone, they would have soon stopped the cows, but the ranch manager was right behind the cows hollerin’ and cussin’ those dogs.  The louder he would holler and the more he cussed the dogs the faster those cows would run.  As he was riding a Quarter horse, he finally outran the cows and got close enough to my dog Buck to call his name.  Buck came to him and he beat the hell out of my dog and came back leading him with a lariat rope.  If I had that one experience on film and show it just exactly like it was, I wouldn’t have to spend any more money advertising Catahoula Cowdogs.

 

A PARTING MESSAGE FROM AL WALKER, ARF GENEALOGIST

 

For information on the Catahoula Cowdog, whether it is for educational purposes or for acquisition, you should make the ARF your first stop.   September 30th , of 2001, ARF celebrated 50 years, 1951 – 2001, in recognizing the first registered Catahoula Cowdog – thank you, Mr. V. T. Williams.
 

After doing some google search it seems to me there like what everyone else is saying cat X bmc cross. And I have a buddy who's got two leopards like this.

But also I still think the traits and everything about these leopard dogs still seem like to me that it's catahoula.

   The leopard cur and leopard hound are the same. The best I can decribe them is that they are somewhere between a hound and a catahoula. They are cold nosed and were bred for hunting. Most are open on track. The catahoula and the leopard cur/hound are two different breeds.

If I liked to hunt catahoulas I wouldn't hesitate to breed in some Leopard cur (bred for bear and boar) into the catahoula. On average I believe that I would get better nose, hunt and stick ability if I were wanting long range track dogs. :)

Right now there is a power struggle between the folks from the older days who want to continue calling them the leopard cur and others who here lately call them leopard hounds. Don't know why they want a leopard hound when we already have the Bluetick hound.

The mtn cur is the same in that they are somewhere in the middle between curs and hounds. They were bred to hunt all kinds of game and not to work cattle but they are good at working cattle if trained to do so.

Back in the old days the plott hound was known as a plott cur as well as a plott hound. Now all are known only as a plott hound.

Now I wonder about the leopard fl curs?

They have been around a long long time, wonder how they fit into this?

just another crossed up curr dog ;D

I think you figured it out Jeese!!

In the end their all just mutts!

I knew a man who had two red fl curs. They were good looking and rough... The best I can describe these dogs is that they weren't the best strike dogs around but good enough. These dogs were really good at stopping and catching hogs. Most of the time you didn't need a catch dog with these two.

yes sir they are all dogs

just some better then others

and some just breed them prettier then other ;D

I mean no disrespect for Mr Tom as I knew him from when I was a small boy, If you had the money he would register anything you had and you could call it anything you wanted. My dads pups all left Stodghills place sporting papers. They were probably better bred than most but their pedigrees did not fit them. I will not register a dog because of all the things I've seen go on in curdog registries, from that time 'till the present.

BigO, I just like finding recorded history, and I am sure anything can be disputed and stretched here and there. However its pretty hard to find it -  recorded info on cur dogs, anything you can find to contribute I would be intrested in reading.

you know i was wondering that too.  is it just me or are the old lines you see down here blocky dogs.  Buddy has some that are so damn hard headed and blocky i swear they have bulldog in them somewhere.  he says they are just leopard dogs, or leopard curs and aint nothing but leopard and cur. they are all red and white colored up, cracked eyes here and there and dont have any hound traits at all.

Like this dog that I just got rdjustham. He is a big block headed, leopard, and dumb as a box of rocks!!



(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh445/sfboarbuster/DSCN3101.jpg)

exactly like that one..lol blocky headed and built like a bulldog, skitish like a coyote and hunts like a cur... :D

WOW ;D ???

so what exactly is a double coat?
and do these suposed leopards have webbed feet too?

 the first ones we ever had came outta louisiana via hog truck sometime in the mid/late 1960's. we've had em ever since. never heard anyone call em catahoulas until the last few years. the old dogs we had back then were sometimes blocky headed, but  had a  bigger ear that laid down, not a little ear that sticks up and breaks over like most of the cats i see lately. they were silent on track unless they were lookin at what they were runnin,  had enough nose for tree dogs  and were gritty enough to catch big stock. most were dark blue spotted, some white eyed, not much white on em if any,  lots of black and tans, not all the loud wild colored stuff you see now. alot of em were "coyote actin" and alot of em were mean SOB's !


 

sounds like the ones ive been around herre in fl

Well as of the leopard debate I don't know much...I do know that I own a leopard dog that is out of some old stock of dogs that came from N. LA from sometime in the 1950's, maybe around the Dobie/Doby (???spelling) Hills Area ...These stock of dogs were owned by a few cowmen around that lived and raised free range cattle here and they were all pretty much just like RockinW said they were...Most all of that blood has died out with the cowmen, who most have passed on...My uncle got the puppy from a man he worked cattle with about eight years ago...The man died and if I'm not mistaken his wife wouldn't let the dogs go to anyone...My grandpa owned alot of dogs out of these but they passed on one by one shortly after he did...Looking back, I wish I woulda known alil more about dog breeding and the blood that was there...I was just a kid so my mind was else where...Ill try and get a picture of the dog I own up here...If im not mistaken, I remember a story about my Grandpa picking these dogs from a couple of guys that used the dogs to work cattle and were also used as watchdogs because the guys were running whiskey or something...Can't really recall to much from it.

The dogs I was raised around were all real dark colored, black, dark leopard and dark tiger striped maybe seen one or two gyps with a ringneck, most males had somewhat of a blocky head, really gritty, could flat work cows, and you didn't touch em unless u owned em, and don't ever recall a double glass eyed dog out the bunch, lots of cracked eyes like the leopard I own...Just my limited experience with em is all.

Back home in Florida, we consider any dog that has catahoula in it to be a leopard dog. I'm huntin two good close range leopard curs right now up here in Tennessee.

guess thats a more straightforward way of putting what i was trying to say..lol

I say the same thing, but there's some that have NO ties to the catahoula at all.

I respect your opinion on Cur dogs and we have allot of the same views on whats makes a top notch Cur dog.  So it promts me to ask.  What would you be looking to add with a cross like that.  A chade more bottom maybe? or Cold trailing?  And don't you think it would water down the stock working abilities?

Waylon

I had never really heard of a Catahoula until the bay dog competitions here back in early 2000, when I first saw them, I thought they were the ugliest things around and that my curr dog looked like a super model (no offense).   

I can say that I dont know exactly where the coloring comes from in the curr dogs down here but now  I am curious and going to have to ask next time we are down south to see if I can find out where the leopard gene may have started at??

This is my old Leopard Curr, she is about 13 years old and came off a ranch here in Okeechobee from family friends.  Her daddy/grand momma were leopards and her momma was a black/tan out of cow/hog dogs. 

She does have the double coat like Cward mentioned, if you put a collar on her you will be scraping the ick off with a knife :P and if you run your fingers along her coat you can feel the difference and see a lighter coat beneath it.  Her coat is also strangely oily.

I took her cow hunting when she was younger but she was never above average, she loved a hog but was rough and liked to catch on the front leg so I just kept her as a pet.   She is a wanderer and extremely sneaky/hard headed.  She is one that if you let her out and she thinks your back is turned she is leaving and you are not liable to see her for days.  We are about 5 miles out of town and people have seen her as far as the high school, which is quite a few miles from the house.  She is also the type that you can call her and she will stand there/talk to you then turn around and trot off or she may hide in the tall grass where you cant see her lmao it gets the husband every time  :D

She used to have a blocky head but the older she has gotten the narrower her face has become…..
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac209/rafeallen/IMG_3452.jpg)

This is Lucy, she is a yellow dog with darker yellow patches.  Her grandma had a cracked eye but was a yellow dog with a few black splotches along her back almost like a saddle. 
She is real timid natured but hard headed, her coat isn’t anything like my old dog’s though.
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac209/rafeallen/dogs/IMG_4185.jpg)

Dont know where she got the coloring from, others in the litter were spotted up and a few were yella one was solid black.  Momma was darker colored leopardxcur dad was a reddish cur.. littermates were all blocky headed this one has a real narrow head but all the other traits of a fl leopard dog  >:(

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc26/RJustham/DSC02920.jpg)

here's one almost like tghe one's we had when we were kids 55 years ago   (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b235/buddybegone/HPIM0649.jpg)

10-4

buddy begone / i had one jus like tht i sold had a double coat and headed dog fighting sucker but i think it was what eveyone is asking bout ill get a pic of him up soon . he didnt have glass eyes but split eyes he was jus to darn hard headed for me but hunted his ass off each time .

Registered lepord hound I used to have. Came from Lamar Meeks in GA.

(http://scoutdooradventures.com/forum/uploads/1232328778/gallery_124_57_30436.jpg)

(http://scoutdooradventures.com/forum/uploads/1232328778/gallery_124_57_74725.jpg)

Lepord dog and two good dogs I lost last year baying a hog.

A friend of mine in north GA has some with longer hair and flag tails. Kinda German Sheppord length hair.

there you go.  the one in the top pic looks very close to the one i had, american leopard cur/hound   not louisiana catahoula leopard.  two very different  BUT similar in color, breeds.

Well I will throw a picture of a dog I have up that is out of those old stock of cur dogs I was talking about...He's not the best representation of the dogs, but he still has alot of the old characteristics from them...I can't really tell you how he hunts to much since Im in Iraq right now, but I kept three dogs out of the litter...He was light yellow brindle, and his littermate brother and sister were deep brindled...Now he is easy going cuz he's been messed with alot more, but on my two weeks R&R, i started his sister, and she has no liking for anyone but me or my father, cuz he has been around her feeding her since I been gone...I gotta notion to breed her to the dark leopard I have out the old blood to keep it going...These dogs are out of the old blood crossed up with a good glass eyed gyp from N. LA, I really think she is just a ring necked catahoula, but I wanted some puppies out the dog, and I didn't have many options on gyps

(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/BA-IV/POKEY.jpg)

This pup is 10months old here and you can almost see the top knot in the picture and his ears break over like the old dogs did.  Now the funny thing, I had 3 dogs I gave away out the bunch, and I told the two gentleman I gave them to that they were cur dogs...Most people call think all cur dogs are catahoulas, and if there not catahoulas, then they are crossed up with mutts, and a cur is pretty much a cull...I grew up around the old stock of dogs calling them cur dogs, and I firmly believe that the old stock is the cur dog, and thats what I'm talking about when I say cur dog...And like I said there is better looking dogsby all means, he just throws some of the old traits out that I like to see.

By the way, I know this was started as a Leopard dog thread, but it kinda shifted to the old style of dogs, and when your talking about them dogs, your talking bout dark leopards, black and tans, brindle and when i say brindle i mean the deep tiger striping, and black dogs...Thats just my .02 though.

Ok begone your dog looks completely different tnhillbilly? I thought these leopard dogs look more like curs then a hound? Begone dog looks like what everyone saying they look like. And I'm starting to wonder if that how the catahoula first looked like and after people breeding over these years have changed the breed up and has mess/difinded them. This is just my opinion. But the leopard hounds look hounds to me and no where like a cur dog. I've seen catahoulas look just like begone dog and there catahoulas and not leopard dog. Dunno to me it's all so damn close to the same.

Waylon,
Bob and I been running together for 45 or 50 years now. Married his sister 42 years ago. I have never seen him breed his ETBMC dogs to nothing but an ETBMC cur dog in all these years. I would have to see that before I’d believe he’d actually do it.
But like he told ya, if he dose breed one just to test it out, he’ll tell the straight up facts about it. That is going to have to PROVE to be some kind of special dog before he tries that.. But no way can I ever see him getting away from Stock dogs, that is what he is and who he is. It’s too important to him they maintain those traits and that ability. The July dog he is speaking of belongs to a friend of ours who is a good dog man and always been a straight up feller. The dog is the old style July dog bred straight and tight from dogs from many years back. This friend is blow away by this July dog. If half the stories are true the dog has to show up in a super man cape. lol  
We hunted some July x BMC pups for Howard Carnathan one time when he was experimenting. (But the world aint suppose to know he did that.. lol )Those particular dogs were totally useless for much of anything.

I just wish everyone could have lived down here and grew up being around Mr. Tom.. He could read  your mind and tell you exactly what you wanted to hear, still dose in written form with many... That man could sell a eksimo a ice box... and it goes on and on even with  him gone... Lordy if some of started telling stories no one would believe it.. lol  Hey Bob, tell em about the time you trained the first Dingo he imported... hahahahah

Hey Skoal,

You sound just like the old cowboys I grew up around telling stories drinking coffee...I was young 5 or 6 but still remember the stories like it was yesterday...I sure would love to see some of those stock dogs if you ever got around to finding a picture or two.

WAYLON I WOULDNT KNOCK IT BEFORE I TRIED IT. IVE SEEN TOO MANY  WITH JUST THAT CROSS THAT ARE AS GOOD DOGS AS YOU COULD ASK FOR. I HAVENT BEEN DOING THIS NEAR AS LONG AS BIGO BUT TO ME THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GO. THEIR MUST BE SOMETHING HE SEE'S JUST TO EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING IT. I SHOULDNT SAY TRY IT BECAUSE I KNOW IT WILL WORK.

There is an old post with some pics of some of these dogs over the years BA. I'll see if I can get a link to it.

 Found it in some old post of mine but I dont know  how to link it from last year.

 GENERAL CATEGORY / GENERAL DISCUSSION / Matt- Owens Cur dogs

To me the top dog looks like a black and tan hound?   What makes that dog a leopard hound?   

O.K. let me try this again, i am not the best with words, and dang sure aint no proffesional, and dont have have a world of knowledge about either one but do know a little, as i have owned both types/breeds.

   The question was asked what was the difference between a leopard cur and a catahoula.

  AMERICAN LEOPARD CUR/hound  was called a cur for years until the past couple of years, they were recognized by the U.K.C. so that they could compete in the coon hunts and gain recognition for their tracking and treeing ability. the only way that the U.K.C. would recognize them as a breed was if they changed the cur to hound.
   Now these American leopard curs are not like curs at all,  they are known to have very cold noses even for a hound, and are tree dogs.  YES  they VERY MUCH resemble a hound in all aspects. they do come spotted, but also come black and tans, high tans,  just like the cats.  but have the long ears, cold noses, and big bawl mouths.   

What i am trin to say is
AMERICAN LEOPARD CUR/hound
                                                              = 2 different breeds
lousiana catahoula cur
 
As far as the origination of these two breeds, i dont have a clue,  did the american leopard curs come from the catahoulas?  IDK
  All i do know is that they have very different charecteristics, and traits such as hot nose, cold nose,   short range, long range,   short ears long ears,  the only common thing about the two is that they will both run and bay hogs, and are alot alike in color.

    Is there a difference in the two?  YES, there most definitly is.

hope i didnt confuse anybody worse than they already was.   lol

So to simplify things...Hopefully I get this right
American Leopard Curs/Hounds that look like a hound
The Catahoula Leopard
Old stock dogs that are curs that AIN'T catahoulas

Seems fair enough...That is about what I am seeing...I maybe wrong, but thats what I'm getting...Hell they may all be related somewhere along down the line, but all three are very much different

UKC papers that say it is a lepord. ;D 

A lot of the lepord hounds are black and tan, hi tan or solid. 

Duke an old Florida leopard dog I use to have. He had cracked eyes, winded very well, was completely silent on track and would catch like a bulldog  ;D    Not a very good pic of him I'll try to find some more.
(http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv292/Rickards_photos/IMG_0005.jpg)
 

I'm not sayin its a bad idea just curious about what he thinks it might add.

Waylon

what would that pig be? catahoula, leopard cur, old cur, fla leopard????  Just sayin :-\ ;D

That's a Florida marsh hog  ;D  They are pretty rank too.

Waylon, when I first started hunting hogs, I hunted some with an old man that really touted the July Cur cross. His dogs didn't have much hunt or bottom so I could see where he was comming from. It was allways in the back of my mind to try it, if I could find the right July. Meanwhile, I had to work with what I had. I was lucky to be handed some pretty good dogs to start with and have had to cull hard to get dogs good in all departments, hunt,nose,tracking ability,and bottom,still do. The whole package doesn't come along everyday in cur dogs, I don't care who breeds them. Yes the July would hurt the stock working ability but might enhance what I have beat my brains out to get in the other departments. I will probably do it just to see what will happen, but they will be for hog hunting only and I would never breed them into all of the dogs Skoal and I have. I will probobly kick myself in the rear after I've done it because we are running out of room to hunt what we have.

It sure will be interesting to see what kind of results you get out of them if you decide to do it bigo!

How can you tell a leopard from a Plott????

You need to be more specific. Leopard could be any leopard colored dog...

Leopard cur is the same as a Leopard hound and then you have the Catahoula Leopard.

The leopard cur/hound are totally different from the Catahoula leopard. The leopard cur was bred strictly for hunting and most are open, cold nosed go yonder type of dogs.

This is where geography plays a part.  as stated earlier in Fl or at least where im from leopard is anything spotted up or multi colored (with the exception of brindle) and generally mixed with a Fl cur.  I never even heard of a catahoula until i started playin on the net a couple years ago.  We just call them leopards, black and tans, saddle backs or yella dogs.  If its a hound its called a hound if its a cur its called a cur.  the old timers and boys i hang around with generalize alotta things.  theres basically six different types of dogs.  Cow dogs, hog dogs, hounds, curs, culls and pot lickers (yard dogs or mommas pet). 

ba-iv  it dont matter what that dog is crossed with good looking dog  jmo 

Appreciate it DubbleR, im trying to get a picture of his sister...there getting a late start cuz of this deployment, but my brother in law is hunting them and they are turning on nicely.

:o

mcduffie developed the "leopard cur" now known as the "leopard hound".
one of the foundation studs was supposedly half or one quarter aussie (or some type of merle farm shepard)...they were bred as tree and woods dogs.

they are completey different than the catahoula leopard curs of the south, those were dogs developed
in the same fashion with much the same genetic origen as the yellow black mouth dogs...

there is no doubt that mcduffie used some of the catahoula type leopards to develop his line of "leopard curs".

J. Richard McDuffie talked a lot about the farm Shepard. The way he described them I envisioned an Australian Shepard that wasn't of the show type that was bred for farm use and they could tree and hunt and watch over the farm. I read his articles for years and I don't remember him saying anything about breeding in any shepard but that doen't mean he didn't. I remember him talking about the farm shepard and it sounded to me that it was a small area where a few farmers kept these type of dogs. He liked what he saw in the farm shepard and was trying to help form a registry for these dogs.

He developed his own strain of leopard curs but I don't think he started the breed but was very involved in its development. I never saw any of his dogs but in the pics his dogs looked to be thick coated and thicker bodied leopard curs. I personally don't like those two traits in a strike dog but for whatever reason his best dogs looked that way.

TNHILLBILLY,

I don't understand why the cur part was dropped and the hound was added on instead because these dogs were good hunting dogs just the way they were. I think that was a big mistake. Back in the 1970s and 1980s the full cry magazine had very few cur columns in it and most of the columns were for all types of hounds. Over the years the majority of the columns and advertisements have switched from mainly hound to mostly cur breeds. This has been talked about and the majority seemed to think it had mainly to do with the hunting plots were getting smaller and smaller and folks were wanting dogs with more handle and not as long range. The other theory I heard and read about was that some of the field trials/night hunts were ruining the hound breeds because breeders were breeding some go younder type dogs and that hunters were hunting hounds instead of hunting with hounds. I don't know one way or the other what was the main reason why lots of folks have been switching over to curs but both reasons sound ligit to me.

Back then I didn't like how the cat and bmc hunted so I was researching the mtn cur and leopard cur. I went with the mtn cur because there were more of them closer to home.

Just like any other breed the mtn curs have faults and have lots of variation within that breed. And some of those differences I try to stay away from.

I didn't mean to get off subject but... ???

I dont understand it either, i kept up with all of it at the time they were trying to get them in the UKC, but i cant remember the reason. I dont agree with it.
       IMO if those breeders that had bred them for years and called them leopard curs then i think the UKC should have accepted that.  but they are real funny about the cur breed.  i tried to advertise some of my 1/2 hound 1/2 cur pups on their dogs for sale one time and it got deleted a couple times, when i asked why? they said cause they wasnt hounds, that it was a HOUND board, which i didnt understand, because they register all kinds of different breeds.

     I dont know if the leopards have any aussi in them or not? that would explain where the long hair, and the spots, come from BUT where did they get the COLD nose and trailing from?   

X2


I wrote an article on this very topic:
http://thehoundsmen.blogspot.com/2008/12/catahoula-or-leopard-cur-dog-or-hound.html

And the one thing I didn't mention in the article because it's politically controversial is that it was, in my opinion, more about ribbon chasing than anything else. The guys breeding for field trials were slowly but surely breeding them into coon-dogs, until one day everyone looked around and was kind of forced to ask the question "Hey are these really curs anymore? They hunt like hounds now." Which was exactly what they wanted because the hound trial guys don't like letting cur-dogs play "their" games... as if that would somehow be an insult to the la-dee-da hounds or something (it always strikes me as odd when you have rednecks getting all snobby with each other) rolleyes

So they were all too eager to have their dogs reclassified as hounds, it allows them to play the coon-hound game, at least with less condescension :-X

Waarheid,

I don't remember ever hearing any good things out of the field trial folks or show dog folks.

The hunting public tends to breed the sensible type of hunting dogs IMO.

Good article! It is accurate according to the research I have done also.

Ribbon chasers? It’s your opinion but after researching leopard dogs, that’s about the only conclusion a person can come up with for the reclassification and the way they have been bred in recent years. Just another coon dog now a days it seems.

Give me a old school leopard dog and I will show you a good leopard dog!

Them old lep. Dogs I remeber man I am talking about could just lead a bunch of cattle!!These dogs would cover some country to find a cow and have the bunch bayed when you got there!! I have seen some awesome lead dogs but when it come to them old 3 leps. They would spin in front of cows I'm truely saying spin look like they were chaseing there tails!! If a cow came out of the herd they would check her make her get back then start spinning again! These dogs never stopped moveing!! I seen one pup out of them that got put on hogs!! She was gritty and made a hell of a dog!! But she would chase her tail in a pen and chewed it off to a nub!!
I wish there were some around just to watch them!!

I've never heard of that Cward, but that don't mean much ;D  sure would be something to watch though, and I can't get over the dog chewing her tail...Something in her brain had to say THIS HURTS at one point or another

This is an awesome thread, thanks for the education.

Lamar Meeks is a leopard man in GA. He is supposed to have some old blood there. Real nice old guy. When I spoke with him he wasn't happy bout the dogs bein classed as hounds, not at all happy ! He runs an add in boar hunter magazine in case any of ya have it. If I remember correctly he was close to the coast

could it be that the yeller dogs came from the old time leapords ?

No. Everybody who's anybody knows yeller dogs were created in the throne room of Valhalla as a gift to mankind to rid the world of pigs before the apocalypse. Throughout human history there was never a group of people found worthy to be entrusted with the holy dogs from on high, until Man discovered Texas. It was the best of the human race who were smart enough to make this rugged land their home and Oden decided the time of the yeller dog was at hand.

Someone has to much time on their hands

Besides everyone knows the crows were Odin's favorite dogs

wow... ;D :o :)

I don't really know why but I thought the yeller dogs were created by crossing a great dane with a minature doberman...

I see where yall have been asking and wondering about leopard curs. My american leopard curs/hounds are ukc reg. The main difference between leopard curs and leopard cats are the ears, nose and be'n an open mouth on track dogs. They do have a great cold nose. The ears are set lower on the head and hang lower and the open like a hound on track and they tree. The have a lot of brains, heart and character. Most cats I've been around and seen are larger muscular built dogs. I'm really love'n mine. I was able to get a couple dogs that you can trace their bloodlines all the way back to the 60's and 70's. I remember reading an article in full cry where they were try'n to get the mountain cur guys to change over their breed to a "hound" back in 2004 or 2005 in full cry.  I think the leopard guys just went because the mountain cur boys wouldn't. To me they have put too much hound in them now since UKC took it over. The hound guys have really added a lot more ear and made them a larger dog. Use to be most of the leopard curs were 30 to 45 lbs females and 45 to 60 or so pound males. Now you can see a 90 to 100 lbs male dog. And they have made them more of a go yonder dog. I like my curs. They hunt close like the old curs, they have a good cold nose, they have the smaller shorter ears and muzzles. They are the smaller body and size.  Yall are more than welcome to come coon hunt'n with me if you want. Here are a couple pictures of mine
Bubby on a tree
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2dmh3xe.jpg)
Patches on the tree
(http://i43.tinypic.com/211qhjn.jpg)
Bubby on tree
(http://i39.tinypic.com/676wbt.jpg)

So my question is who raise UKC leopard hound/ curs I've been hunting around and there nothing but dead ends

   mike Rodgers is where I got mine there is another fella In north texas [ can't recall his name right now ] that hog hunts with his . but mike has pups every now and then and has some good dogs . other than that you have to head to Oklahoma and further north to find any . Louisiana has a couple folks as well . go to the ukc board forum and into the classifieds you'll find some folks and see where they are located .

I own 4 leopard hounds and they look very different from a catahoula.  Mine look like hounds with leopard spots and blue eyes.  I love the hound type head on them.  They seem like they are a little slower to mature than some other breeds i have owned.  But i wouldnt take for mine.  I have 4 littermates and all are a different color.  One red leopard one blue one sable and one brindle.

I am glad they left the mt cur alone...I have seen the change in the leopard cur when it went to leopard hound...they look too much like bluetick in the gene pool...

This is my old school catahoula ( he ain't no nalc bay pen dog ). He came from stock dogs that the old families used to catch their cattle and hogs out of the woods with. He hunts out 100-300yds but goes 600-800yds in sign. He listens good and minds. He is not aggressive towards people unless a stranger comes near my lil girl and then he will eat their boots off their feet.

<a href="http://s902.photobucket.com/user/courtneyedunn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-01/6DEF2D0E-AB04-49B8-B6B7-673068C4B29D_zpsqtq39xri.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac230/courtneyedunn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-01/6DEF2D0E-AB04-49B8-B6B7-673068C4B29D_zpsqtq39xri.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6DEF2D0E-AB04-49B8-B6B7-673068C4B29D_zpsqtq39xri.jpg"/>[/url]

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most i see around no longer meet the breed standards as stated by the leopard hound club of the ukc...
this is just one example.

"EARS - Ears are drop, of short-to-medium length, wide at the base, and set high."

(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag4/daDEA/Mobile%20Uploads/20130619_212439_zpsdc717fce.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/daDEA/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20130619_212439_zpsdc717fce.jpg.html)

(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag4/daDEA/Mobile%20Uploads/20130619_212405_zps190c602c.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/daDEA/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20130619_212405_zps190c602c.jpg.html)

This is my leopard hound, no papers or history behind her, I was told she is a leopard hound when I got her.  She doesn't sound like a hound at all tho, big loud regular ol bark.