EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have seen some pic's over the years of brindle colored BMC's. Has anyone raised any full blood bmc's that threw brindle pups or are these brindle dogs carrying genes from another breed that throws the brindle color?  I don't know the history to well of the BMC but I have seen some pretty old pic's that had brindle dogs claiming to be BMC's. Lastly if this has been brought up before sorry, I did a search and didn't find the topic

Thanks Waylon

http://www.angelfire.com/tx6/highplains/page2.html

i got this from a bmc website...http://s1.zetaboards.com/Black_Mouth_Cur/, from a guy i bought a reversed colored bmc from...


Time And Time again I receive a phone call. The voice on the other end of the line.
Say's Mr. Knierim, I am looking for a Blackmouth Cur puppy. A YELLOW ONE.
Now please don't get me wrong. I like yellow BMC's. But when the first quality for
picking a pup is color. It makes me wonder how they, pick their friends.
The Blackmouth Cur Association reconizes all these colors yellow--red--brindle--black/tan--brown/saddle back--brown. Dogs can have white blazes on chest, toes and tips of tail. Blazes can
even extend to around the neck. However a ringneck is a undesireable trait. Some BMCs may even have piedbald or blaze faces. Again these are undesireable traits.
So lets talk a little about breeding.
How Breeding Use to Be Done:
Centuries Ago when people lived in clans and settlements in Europe and in Early America. People
depended heavily upon their dogs. Dogs that didn't hunt for game. Protect stock and round up free
roaming stock. Warn the family against strangers. These dogs were not tolerated. They were culled
or eliminated. Those dogs that were allowed to reproduce. Only one thing was considered breeding
the best to the best. The Best hunter-protector-stock dog male to like female. Then all pups were kept
inside the clan--settlement--village. Because the better the quality of the dogs. The better hunters
--equal more game on the table. The better Stock dog--Equal a full smoke house full of ham and beef
through the winter. The more protective of the family--equal less like suprise attack by raiders or indians. When this much was a stake. Color was absolutely no factor.
So how did everyone get stuck on the YELLOW COLOR?:
Fred Gipson wrote the book
OLD YELLER. Walt Disney Then made the movie OLD YELLER. Which has become a family
classic for so many people. Right now I realize I might be stomping all over you feet. Well
If the movie is the only reason you bought your BMC. I hope I can open your eyes to a whole
lot more history than Fred Gipson' Book.
Fred Gipson's description of Old Yeller was that. He was dingy yellow, with one ear that stuck
in the air. And that his bark was more of yell. That was how he got his name Yeller. It's a great
book and well worth the read. Better than Disney ever did justice with the movie.
Breeding that is being done today:
Most breedings that take place today. Are because someone has a female, that comes in heat, She
is a decent enough female but lacking in a few areas. So the owner starts looking for a male to
compliment and strengthen her weaknesses. Or someone owns a pair of BMCs 1male 1female. She comes in season and so lets just naturally raise a litter of pups.
The dedicated Breeder:
The dedicated breeder is someone who researchs the pedigrees of his/her dogs throughly. The dedicated breeder should know the strengths and the weaknesses of his/her dogs. A list of all
strengths and weaknesses should be compiles. To comprehend the qualities of the pups before
the mating of the parents. Conformation--head--ear set--feet(wether splay or cat footed) Chest
should be deep and bell shaped. Flanks should be high and tigh. Not low and flabby. You simply
bred to the best you can find or get a hold of.
Color simply has nothing to do with best.
What is really funny. When I have a litter of pups with a couple of Black-n-Tan colored puppies
in it. Guess which ones are the 1st one to be reserved! Folks figure that they are a throw back
to old foundation BMC dogs. Somehow I have yet to see one of those black dogs fail to make a heck
of a good dog.
Maybe it's just that I am not prejudice. I never did care what color my dog was. As long when I got
to the tree it had the meat. That was the only thing that mattered.
I hope this has shed some light on this subject. If you like yellow dogs and that what you
want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I just want you to be aware not to
discriminate against the other colors.
Have a Wonderfully Blessed Weekend
Kevin Knierim
(217)536-9999

damn good post Okie, I know you live by that guys words and do cull hard, too bad some people we are stuck knowin dont even have a clue as to what this means, now when the part about breedin a halfway good gyp to a good male just to strengthen her weeknesses came up, I almost felt bad for all those dogs that get culled or all the time and money someone spent just to learn the hard way. it really is up to us to ensure the next generation is bred right and act right, some people just dont get it that a pedigree is like looking at an ingredients list or even a step by step manual to producing, scatter bred dogs can work well they just dont produce consistantly= culls,

you can also read this post about howard carnathan and how he got started breeding and the colors his dogs came out...............
http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=21872.0

Okie

First off thanks for all the info, please don't take my post the wrong way, I'm wouldn't pick a dog just because he/she was brindle. I have 2 BMC that are red with zero black anywhere, to me there as good for there age as any out there, my other one is yellow black masked and I didn't take him home because of color either, I choose my dogs on ability, or if there pups there parents natural ability. Simply put if I found 2 females that were above average and for sale one being brindle the other yellow but equal in all other respects and breeding I would purchase the brindle dog simply because I like brindle, it's pretty  :) I am only curious if the few brindle dogs I see are accepted by the majority of working breeders as full bloods because I almost never see them in any of the major lines, and even rarely in lesser know lines, I was aware of the breed standard but 95% of the dogs I see come yellow and I don't think I have ever even seen a black bmc. Brindle it seems is a rare outcropping if the dogs 100% bmc and most when I begin to question there back ground a mountain cur, or plott is mentioned some where in there past. I will check out the links people posted and am grateful for the reply's as well as the information and opinions. God Bless Waylon

I know this one come outa two gen of yella dogs was told all were but u never know
I raised him A buddy has him now (http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll87/catchdog/boom049.jpg)

Waylon, it depends on the breeder and his line of dogs.  i have never had a brindle pup, always red or yellow.  other guys will get black and or brindle sometimes. 

Thanks fellas, sorry i'm a recovering catahoula man, only owned yella dogs for a year so I'm trying to educate myself the different lines and history, At this point I'm just glad to be on the winning side ;D

God Bless, Waylon

I love the brindle dogs, but most people don't realize that they are bmc.  bmc stands for black mouth curs, not yellow bmcs, just black mouth.  That would be the roof of their mouth, not the pretty mask that everyone seems to want these days...  If someone calls me and immediately says the want a purty yellow with a dark mask I tell them I can't help them and hang up.  Its simple to me, I don't breed for color, I breed for traits that I find desirable to me...  If you are looking for a dog you need to know what you want in a dog first and worry about the coat later.  With that being said if you find 2 that you like the same, by all means pick the one that you think is the best looking..  Confirmation is another issue-I would rather own a dog with crooked ears and a deep wide chest than one with a beautiful head and to legs that come out of the same socket.  Its all in what you want out of your dog, I personally think pretty is when your dog is locked onto a hog or cow and nothing is going to distract it...that's jmo. 

" I personally think pretty is when your dog is locked onto a hog or cow and nothing is going to distract it...that's jmo.  "


Can I get that in brindle please :D :D :D except no locking on the cows ear, but maybe a little striking on the head when needed

lol, come to think of it I aint never seen a cat strike and shut down a hog without a BMC, not sayin it cant be done jus never seen it

Sorry, I say a dog is locked down when they are 150% focused on the job at hand, I call caught, caught!!!  I don't know where you are from but if its close to me you are more than welcome to come see my yard.  I'm in the northeast part of tx.  I have brindle bmc's and brindle cross bred (cat/bmc) and seem to like a grittier dog than most.  I also have several bmc's that are real close to being saddleback.  The pale yellow coat is a color preference just like the loud patchwork coat on a catahoula.  Kennels trying to sell pups breed for what the buyers want a lot of times...sometimes without even realizing what they are doing to the breed...

i'm not even going to lie i bought my first dog becuz he was reversed colored...all the dogs on the old mans yard where yella...luckily for me all them dogs are great hog dogs...so he turned out to be great dog too...now that i know what i know i wouldn't purchase a pup if i never seen the mom and dad work...

Reversed color or black n tan/saddle backed color?

Is a brindle cur dog a throw back from the result of a past cross of a different breed back in history? My reason for asking is there are breeders I know that have bred BMC for 30-40 years and have never had a brindle pup in a litter of puppies.

he's all black except for his mouth and half way up his legs...he's yella in those places...i have a gyp that i got from a guy in illinois and she is the same color...she came out of a red male and yella female...she's actually registered....

You have a pic of the dog handy?

this is my oldest...almost two...if you look closely you can see the yella under his black coat....he came out of two yella dogs...
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab81/hx25243/Image0484.jpg)

here are a brother and sister i bought...they came out of a red male and yella female...
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab81/hx25243/Image0524.jpg)

Good looking dogs for sure...what I was getting at is the term "reverse" to me a reverse BMC would be all black w/ a yella muzzle or mask....that would be reverse coloring right? your good lookin dogs to me would be called black n tan colored.

This gyp below was a mt cur....I called her a black n tan colored dog....or would she be called reversed?

(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/BONEDIGGERKENNELS/8-5-07006.jpg)

[(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/BONEDIGGERKENNELS/6-23-07002-1.jpg)

i guess you could call them black and tan...as long as you don't get them mixed up with a hound..ha ha...the older breeders i've spoken to called them reversed....so i just call them that too...i'm still learning about the breed myself....i've never seen an all black bmc with just a yella mouth....i'm sure when this breed was being created there where different breed's of dogs of different colors mixed together to form one...so all these colors could just be from foundation dogs that started the bmc breed.....................................this is from a discussion from another board....

keven knierem said "Several years ago i had a litter of pups out of my Shelby's Hunter II
and my Knierim's Tiger Lilly. In this litter there was 3 puppies 1Black-1 deep Red-
1Blue all 3 had ringnecks--4white feet and looked like the tip of their tails were dipped
in white paint. I was very curious as to were all this white color was coming from.
So I called Mr. Howard Carnathan to clue me in. All he said was this was a throw back to the old foundation bloodlines. He suggested keeping some of them in the neighborhood.
Because he was certain they would be some of the best producers. He was even interested in getting one for hisself. As life would have it all 3 died due to extreme heat. So I never was
able to put them to the test.
Today when someone winds up with a ringneck puppy. The breeder is normally accused of improper breeding tactiics. Someone will pop off about some walker showing up in the crossing. When those who are true purest will realize this is a throw back to ancestors of days gone by. When breeders used just one rule. You Breed The Best To The Best.

Well respectfully okie when you mentioned Mr. Knierem and Mr. Carnathan that explains it and even moreso if your "reverse" colored dogs are from Howards line of dogs. I like Mr Howard and always enjoyed him but as all breeds and line not everyone will know what built them....but was not Howard foundation dog Carnathans Bruno? ......

I never had tthe chance to ask Mr. Howards about this before his stroke...but you figure it out.   ;)   

See pic on the right of Bruno advertised as a registered "catahoula bulldog"

(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/BONEDIGGERKENNELS/alanscott.jpg)

Makes me think of this...

(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/BONEDIGGERKENNELS/snakeoilman2L-2.jpg)


Sorry for jackin your thread Waylon.....

mr howard did say "before i started breeding b-m curs, i went crazy, or had a brain storm, and tried to breed some catahoula bulldogs. i bred bruno to some half bulldog's and half catahoula curs, and registered them with the a-r-f in quinlan tx as catahoula bulldogs...never got one pup that had any sense"  http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=21872.0....

underdog, i only have one gyp from mr knierem...she was one of the pups in the second pic...she's a year old and turning it on...the other pup died...the dog in the first pic is from a guy here in oklahoma....

Cool....no worries but it still don't explain Bruno being advertized as a cat bull......

I tried the cat/bull a bunch and alway had good luck...look up "Clifford"   ;)

Underdog did you ever get to meet Howard Carnathan or see any of the dogs he owned himself?
It's amazing how many folks actually believed what he said and advertised about them dogs he had..  ;)

Bryant,

That sure does look like Carnathans Bruno in the pic. Howard had that monthly column in full cry for years... Don't know much about his dogs though.

HMMMM? now I'm really confused  :D JK I guess there are some full blood or pure bred brindle BMC's, and even some other colors I didn't know where out there, if you can use the term " Full Blood " or " pure bred " with cur dogs. Thanks for the info guys.

sportsman x2 except in a bay pen  ;)

Kaycee, I am from North East Oklahoma and thanks for the invite, I've been slipping into Texas little by little lately so maybe I'll give you a holler next time I'm headed your way, I always like to see good dogs work no matter the breed or color and am always ready to learn what I can about head dogs

Fellers, Bob and I both know Howard well and have for years. Been to his home, stayed with him, talked with him any times. In Fact, Bob is the man who suggested the name American Blackmouth cur to Howard many years ago..

That article dont scratch the surface of the whole deal with those dogs or whats been done all in the name of in my opinion $$$. After Howard's stroke, now ya got another feller or two taking over with pups to sale. Ton's of history there for those that have been around a while and know.  
That article  dont mention  the breedings with Plott's which can explain the brindle or the July's which explains the flag tails and on and on. I will say one more thing that any good dog man say, thats all I need to know about it.. A few years back we went up to hunt our dogs for Howard and for a man Howard knew. Howard knew about a couple good dogs we had and wanted to see them hunt. We loaded up that morning and asked Howard which dogs he was taking.. He said " Oh no, I can't hunt mine, they are to valuable to hunt".
There, I said enough, don't intend on saying anything else as it serves no purpose, but it is what it is in my opinion..

I guess what I try to remember and keep on my mind at all times is what the definition of curr meant to the people that started breeding curr dogs, it was a specific crossing of breeds to get the traits they desired in a dog.  It kinda helps explain a lot sometimes.  I still get a lot of white snips on the nose and occassionly get a ring neck on dogs that I know their bloodlines for 10 to 15 generations, my grandpa told me when I got my original dogs that I had a duty to create better dogs for the future generations.  I try to keep that in mind every time I breed.  He also told me that when he was younger they didn't have the means to breed  dogs to dogs like we do so a lot of times they bred the very best to the very best they could get to, regardless of color. I think that might explain why certain bloodlines throw certain coat patterns more than others.
Not quite on the same subject but almost, how many of ya'll have dogs that are double dew clawed.  It seems like all of my really old bloodlines, when crossed with another old bloodline throws atleast half a litter (or more) with the extra dew claws.  Just wondering if anybody else has this happen??

I really wish that I would have paid more attention to my grandpa and asked way more questions than what I did, so much of the history of the dogs we love is being lost by information not being passed on and so much of the breed is being destroyed by people breeding for pretty and $$$.  Now I've said more than I intended but before I piss anybody off let me add that this is just MY opinion..

most all of my cats have the double dew claw... i didnt realize some bmc had them too.. something in the wood pile i guess.

 :)

Peachcreek, lots of breeds of dogs have double dew claws..

Here is the problem with breeding better dogs. One breeders standard of excellence for performance and looks can be a total cull for another breeder and this is why we have good hunting dogs and sorry hunting dogs.

There are quite a few more reasons but I thought I would touch on one extreme and then the other.

reuben just hit the nail on the head and thats why we will always have our great debates right reuben?

That's a big 10-4 Geronimo....

Here are some brindle dogs and one black and tan coat.  All 100% Cur dog.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b364/Waylon8885/E_BarrRattle.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b364/Waylon8885/lana.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b364/Waylon8885/3dog2010.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b364/Waylon8885/DSC00792.jpg)

All the other brindles are out of the first one.  This line throws mostly brindle and solid black, then a few black and tan and reds from time to time.  Not crossed with plotts just stock dogs in origin then used on hogs and cows for ~20-25 years.


The last two picks the black and tan and the ones in the gooseneck are out of a line thats 100% cow dog to this day, bred buy Cowboys for cow work.  That being said, lots of people go to that line for hog dogs and its not by accident.  That line throws solid black's, black and tan, and blue.  No they are not crossed with blue lacy or hound just bred tight from stock dogs that happened to be that color and it stuck with the line.

I havent been in a while, but there was a young guy with a gray brindle gyp that was winning all the money at the local bayings with her. His buddies said she was as good in the woods as she was in the pen.

I really liked the way she looked too. smallish and cat quick.

But that all said, when ever I go to buy a dog of any kind, hod dog or bird dog, I look at the dogs back ground looking for one with what I think will make the dog I am looking for. Once I find that litter, then I pick the one that is the most eye appealing to me. I am a firm believer that once you get down to an individual litter, it's a crap shoot from there any way and you might as well get one you like looking at.

Well I get blacks ,black and tans , Yellows , brindles,and reds! Most everything I got are yellows but never keep anything for the color just what I end up with! I have been breeding mine for a long time and my Uncle started them in 1975! I will end up with a pup that is shaggy haired every now and then! But that don't mean nothing!
I also think the name cur came from the old cowboys that never bragged on his dogs! I remember people asking my Uncle what kinda dogs are them and he would say JUST A DANG OLE CUR! Just makes sence that it would have stuck from older cowboys than him!

I never herd of Weatherford Ben until I read of him on here!So I just asumed that all cur dogs through all colors!
But I met some great guys that have the same goal as me and were able to out cross with some of there dogs!

here is a brindle black mouth cur from bo nutting he has had this line of dogs for 25 years or so i think most come yellow. she has turned out to be a real nice cow dog fixing to breed her. here a picture of her at around 10 months old

 (http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/MAV1971/Photo0049.jpg)
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/MAV1971/Photo0043.jpg)

MAV nice dogs and pic's, thanks fellas for all the input I learned a few things I didn't know

I prefer yellar but being yellar doesn’t mean they all good or gona be good.  I don’t have a problem with black, black and tan or brindle dogs. I see quite a few Red masked dogs, a few blue dogs and even a few ring necks in some lines. It just depends on a few things no matter the color.  All of that to me is more about the respect I may have or develop for the man who bred and/or owns him, the dog and his family history and not what I am told but what I see in the woods and know to be true.
There is a culture connection with some of these cur dogs. I am more comfortable with and personally like to see dogs from men of that background or culture. Don’t always work out that way, but it’s been a pretty good indicator for me over the years.