EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

just wantin to see whose running em and know what yall think about them

I have three jagds... But Im not a hardcore hog hunter. All furred and feathered critters are fair game to me. I think they are great varmint/versatile dogs. But I think maybe if all you run is one species of game, you would be better served with other dogs. I dont own patts so I cant speak from experience.

thanks for the reply im just getting started and tryin to fugure out whats my best option i would only be running hogs and have read that their small size helps out in the thick brush and that their prey drive is amazing, plus the feed bill is lower with a small dog compared to a full size dog.

All those are true. You just have to taje into account jagds are immensely hard headed. They hunt because they like it and could care less about pleasing you. All jagds, by breed standard, should be open on scent or sight. Silent jagds should be a cull by the standard. That may or may not matter to you. They are super driven and wont be happy sitting on a chain all the time. They can make your life miserable if theyre bored. Digging chewing making all sorts of god awful racket. If yiu get a pup, get it from proven lines from someone that hunts like you do. Someone in the North breeding for varmint dogs might not be selecting for traits conducive to big game hunting. And please do the breed a favor by nit producing a litter off young unproven dogs. I love the little devils. They have a low cull rate and thats only because people actively seek to improve the breed and not peddle pups off of unproven young dogs.

i run a patterdale bmc cross and iv got 2 jacks i run as well.there mean sobs.prey drive is extreemly high.wil; take down an elephant if you let them

I have 2 pattdales they r rough lil dudes only problem is they hunt anything an are hardheaded an don't give a crap about just chaseing hogs they would be just as happy chaseing rats haha or anything eles , that's the only problem I have with them they r just trashy but anit scared of catching a hog , an don't matte the size , I would say a Cur dog is 10 times Easyer to try to get just on hogs ,

i havent ever heard of usin jack russels but i have considered a cur dog just dont know how big they get or what bloodline and breed. i greatly appreciate everyones help with everything

its a reply to a comment not an ad to the public !!!
it was specifically to pitman01

Then send him a pm... ;)

The next dog I have will be a patterdale jagd or jack russel.  They in my opinion are awesome all around dogs, and would be a great woods companion.  I however, would prefer something bigger for hogs.. but I am not very knowledgable yet.  But jmho

Me and a friend us jagds. for pen work an wood hunting they will role out like a hound and they yelp 1 time when its 30min our fresher I let my pits go when they yelp they find the pig fast and big hogs get dizzy because they work a foot from his head in if the pig trys to run they bit down on some nuts in usually the big pigs set for the pits to catch the blood in are jagds are some of the best! I know of 2 litters 1 I have and a good friend! Proven lines at friend kennel too!

Jagds are my breed of choice.  I hunt other dogs, but like the Jagds best. 

It seems that most Jack Russells are "accidental hog dogs".  Meaning they start out as pets, woods companions or blood trail dogs and then discover hogs.  My buddy owns a Jack Russell that is a good trail dog.  He can't run with the Jagds and isn't as rough as they are, but he finds hogs and will probably live longer than most Jagds.  I just convinced myself while writing this to try and get him for myself.  Good pup trainer and small property dog.

I've never used a Patterdale, but would try one. 

well my jack is stupid crazy.he has no bark,100% catch.he dont care the size of the hog.

Jagds can catch to but if u won't him to live longer try to teach him not to catch!! I know if my jagds catch its only on the nuts until it stops!  All my jagds bay ruff my lead jagds wears a vest and cut collar in I have seen him fly over 10foot trying to catch like a bulldog !I raise them to bay!

 

Are you sure the breed standard is correct about open on scent or sight???  I have had terriers for over 40 years and I have never seen a open terrier in rat or fox terriers.  You mite get one that yips a lil on jumped varmit but all i ever seen or had were silent trailers and only barked when game was bayed or up a tree.  I read where they had 500 Jagds in Kennels beofre WW2 breeding them up by Germans, no wonder they are so gamey, they prob shot any dog that did not hunt.  I never had a Jag and for sure dont if they are open like the standard says, are all of your dogs fully open when trailing game???  Do they trail nose down and open or how hot does a trail have to be for them to open???  Are they bawl mouth, pr chop mouth or squeaky, bell mouth or what exactly??  Got a video of one barking on trail??  I love to see that, dont know what dog they used to get them open and black??

Knightstock, that is true about the jagds in their GERMAN origin and standards and I have only hunted with a  handful that were actually  silent/semi silent, most open like a hound, they squwall and squeak instead of bawl, sounds like a dog is getting ripped in half and takes some getting used to listening to the banshees in the woods

JAGDS are not even in the same category as Jack Russels or many other breeds IMO. Just because they are small and are terriers its like comparing a bluetick to Pitbull not the same temperments drives or dispositions.

Even my silent jagd terrier (the only one I have kept out of several I have had, he will still go open when he gets to running a track really fast, he just does not stay open, he does not catch every thing, and thats the reason he is still on my yard.

I can guarantee you Im speaking the truth. A jagdterrier is supposed to be either spurlaut or sichlaut. A dog that is neither is supposed to culled from the gene pool. Im not saying that means a lick to us. Just telling you what the breed founders wanted in a versatile hunting terrier. And if think about it in the context of where and when they originated, and juxtapose that against German hunting styles and traditions, it makes sense.

 


So what did they actually hunt with them in Germandy anyways??  Boar, deer, i just read a lil bit but 500 in one kennel sounds crazy to me, sounded like a Nazi deal to get them all the same color Nazi Black so they would have a National Socialist Nazi Terrier, no telling how many got killed becasue they were the wrong color not black, crazy for sure.  Wonder if they have any Black Forest Hound in them or Beagle to make them trail more and open on track??  Is the Barvian Boar dog black by any chance??  I cant remeber anymore but seems like it was and ruff coated too??

They are used to hunt any game animal in Europe above or below ground.  This is part of what makes them so "gamey" or "trashy" to us U.S. hunters. 

Yes, they were a commissioned genetic project to produce a versatile terrier. 
Yes, black and tan are considered "the hunt" colors. 

They were culled using a clearly defined list of standards including color, conformation, and ability.  Most of the dogs in Europe are required to pass the same tests before breeding even today. 

The breeding program was well under way before the NSDAP ever came to power.

Does anybody have an english copy of what the jagdterrier is actually tested on in Germany from one of the German sites??  Like do they get tested for trailing, voice, baying etc what exactly??

I'll get you a link to a translation of FCI 103 (the standard) and the ZP testing. Personally i think much of what is in ZP testing doesn't apply to us. I also think some people spend too much time worrying about testing rather than hunting.

TRANSLATION: Johan Gallant / Walter Schicker.

ORIGIN: Germany.

DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THE VALID ORIGINAL STANDARD: 05.02.1996.

UTILIZATION: Versatile hunting dog, suited in particular for the hunt under the ground and as a flushing dog.

FCI CLASSIFICATION: Group 3 Terriers.
Section 1 Large and medium sized Terriers.
With working trial.

BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY: After the First World War a group of active hunters separated from the numerically strong Fox Terrier Club. It was their aim to create a breed, the sole purpose of which would be hunting performance. The experienced hunters and cynologists Rudolf Frieß, Walter Zangenberg and Carl Erich Grünewald decided to select a black and tan hunting dog in particular suitable for the hunt under the ground. A coincidence came in support of their efforts. A zoo director, Lutz Heck / Hagenberg presented Walter Zangenberg with four black and tan terriers which were said to come from pure bred Fox Terrier lines. These dogs became the foundation stock of the German Hunting Terrier. At the time Dr Herbert Lackner joined the founders. After many years of intensive breeding efforts, and through skilful crossings with the Old English Wirehaired Terrier as well as with the Welsh terrier, they succeeded to fix the appearance of their breed. At the same time they put great emphasis on breeding a multitalented, well trainable, hard, tongue giving and water happy dog with an explicit hunting instinct. The German Hunting Terrier Club (Deutscher Jagdterrier Club e.V.) was founded in 1926. As ever, the breeders continued to value most carefully their breed for its usefulness as a hunting dog, its steadiness of character, its courage and drive.

GENERAL APPEARANCE: A smallish, generally black and tan, compact, well proportioned working hunting dog.

IMPORTANT PROPORTIONS: Proportion of chest circumference to height at the withers: The circumference of the chest is 10 to 12 cm more than the height at the withers.
Body length to height at the withers: The body is insignificantly longer than the height at the withers.
Depth of chest to height at the withers: Circa 55 60 % of the height at the withers.

BEHAVIOUR / CHARACTER: Courageous and hard, takes pleasure in work, enduring, vital, full of temperament, reliable, sociable and trainable, neither shy nor aggressive.

HEAD: Elongated, slightly wedge shaped, not pointed, the muzzle slightly shorter than the skull from occiput to stop.

CRANIAL REGION:
Skull: The skull is flat, broad between the ears, narrower between the eyes.
Stop: Slightly marked.

FACIAL REGION:
Nose: In harmony with the muzzle, neither too narrow nor too small, not cleft. Black, but when the color of the coat is dominantly brown, a brown nose is also permitted.
Muzzle: Strong, distinct under jaw, strongly pronounced chin.
Cheeks: Well pronounced.
Lips: Tight and well pigmented.
Jaws/Teeth: Big teeth. Strong jaws with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, whereby the row of upper incisors, without gap, perfectly locks over the lower incisors, and with the teeth standing vertically to the jaws. 42 teeth in accordance with the teeth formula.
Eyes: Dark, small, oval, well placed in such a way that injury is hardly possible; the eyelids are tight. Resolute expression.
Ears: Set high, not explicitly small, V shaped; slightly touching semi drop ears.

NECK: Strong, not too long, well put on and blending strongly into the shoulders.

BODY:
Topline: Straight.
Withers: Well defined.
Back: Strong, straight, not too short.
Loin: Well muscled.
Croup: Well muscled and flat.
Chest: Deep, ribs well sprung, not too broad, long breastbone with ribs well reaching backwards.
Underline: Elegantly curved backwards; short and firm flanks, belly slightly drawn up.

TAIL: Well set to the long croup, docked for circa 1/3. Is rather carried slightly raised than steeply erected, but should never incline over the back. (In countries where tail docking is prohibited by law, it can be left in its natural state. It should be carried horizontally or slightly sabre formed.)

LIMBS

FOREQUARTERS:
General: Seen from the front the forelegs are straight and parallel, viewed from the side they are placed well under the body. The distance from the surface to the elbows is approximately equal to the distance from the elbows to the withers.
Shoulders: The shoulder blade lies well oblique and backwards; it is long and strongly muscled. There is good angulation between shoulder blade and upper arm.
Upper arm: As long as possible, well and dry muscled.
Elbows: Close to body, neither turned inward nor outward. Good angulation between upper arm and forearm.
Forearm: Dry, straight and upright with strong bones.
Pastern joint: Strong.
Pastern: Slightly angulated to the ground, bones rather strong than fine.
Forefeet: Often broader than the hind feet, the toes lying close to each other with sufficiently thick, hard, resistant and well pigmented pads. They are parallel, in stance as well as in movement neither turned inward nor outward.

HINDQUARTERS:
General: Viewed from behind straight and parallel. Good angulation between upper thigh and lower thigh and also at the hocks. Strong bones.
Upper thigh: Long, broad and muscular.
Stifle: Strong with good angulation between upper and lower thigh.
Lower thigh: Long, muscular and sinewy.
Hock joint: Strong and placed low.
Hocks: Short and vertical.
Hind feet: Oval to round, the toes lying close to each other, with sufficiently thick, hard, resistant and well pigmented pads. They are parallel, in stance and in movement neither turned inward nor outward.

GAIT / MOVEMENT: Ample ground covering, free, with good reach in the front and powerful drive from the rear. In front and hindquarters parallel and straight; never stilted.

SKIN: Thick, tight, without folds.

COAT

HAIR: Plain, dense; hard rough hair or coarse smooth hair.

COLOUR: The colour is black, dark brown or grayish black, with fawn (yellow red) clearly defined markings at the eyebrows, muzzle, chest, and the legs and at the base of the tail. Light and dark mask is equally permitted; small white markings on chest and toes are tolerated.

SIZE AND WEIGHT:
Height at the withers: Dogs: 33 to 40 cm, or 13 to 15 ¾ in.
Bitches: 33 to 40 cm, or 13 to 15 ¾ in.
Weight (desired ideal weight for working):
Dogs: 9 to 10 kg, or 19 ¾ to 22 lb.
Bitches: 7,5 to 8,5 kg, or 16 1/2 to 18 ¾ lb.

FAULTS: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.
Missing of one or both M3 (Molars) is not to be considered a fault.

SERIOUS FAULTS:
· Narrow skull, narrow and also pointed muzzle.
· Falling away under jaw, narrow jaws.
· Weak bite, any slight irregularity in the placing of the incisors.
· Light or spotted nose.
· Light, too big or protruding eyes.
· Erected, flying, too small, set too low or heavy ears.
· Steep forequarters.
· Soft or roached back, too short back.
· Short breastbone.
· Too narrow or too wide in front.
· Steep hindquarters, overbuilt.
· Elbows clearly turned in or out.
· Too close or spread toes; cow-hocked, bow-legged or narrow hocks, in stance as well as in movement.
· Ambling, stilted or tripping gait.
· Splayed feet, cat feet.
· Tail inclining over the back, tail set too low or hanging.
· Short, woolly, open or thin hair, bald at the belly or at the inner sides of the thighs.


DISQUALIFYING FAULTS:
· Aggressive or overly shy.
· Weak in temperament and character, shot or game shy.
· Over and undershot bite, wry mouth, pincer and partial pincer bite, irregularly placed teeth, missing teeth except for M3.
· Incorrect pigmentation.
· Entropion and ectropion, eyes of different color, blue or spotted eyes.
· Any departure of the described coat color.
· Over and under size.


Read more: http://jagineb.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=standard&action=display&thread=461#ixzz1RnLpVFxL

Adaption of ZP into English to be used in the USA:

(German Hunting Terrier Natural Instinct Test)


UNDERGROUND WORK

SEARCH: Before this discipline, dog can be encouraged until he finds the quarry. Handler has to stay at the entrance of the tunnel and is not allowed to leave. A good dog will not go in the tunnel if its was not used. Toothed quarry is guided all the way until is closed in one of the dens. Dog has 5 minutes to search the tunnel. Exiting lowers his score for one point and if he leaves the tunnel 3 times and is not going back in time leads to disqualification.
VOICE: After finding its quarry dog has to start barking continually and persistently. Real voice has to be distinguished from false voice where there is no quarry or the quarry has not even entered. Time is 5 minutes and not giving any voice leads to disqualification.
AGGRESSIVENESS: Gates are lifted and quarry is given 10 seconds to find its place. (Direct contact) Gate is lifted in front of the dog and he has 2 minutes to work. Dog has to hold the quarry for 10 seconds. If the dog is not making contact and stays 1+ meter in front of its quarry, it is disqualified.
PERSISTENCE: Scored from the time when dog enters the tunnel. Every time the dog leaves the quarry 1 point is taken off the total and if the dogs does not go back after 3 times or is not going back in time it is disqualified.

FIELD WORK

NOSE: Work is tested on Jackrabbit, rabbit, or game bird tracks (last resort). Difficulty is taken into consideration while testing. Dog is tested only in the field.

CONFIDENT TRACKING: Tested on Jackrabbit, rabbit, or game bird tracks in the field. Nose and confident tracking are in most cases dependent categories.

PERSISTANCE: Constant following with hard work to find lost track. High level of persistence has no effect on obedience in the field.

SCENT VOICE: Done in the field after game has gone out of sight. It is not recommended to start the track from the beginning and handler is allowed to walk with the dog on the leash for the first 30 meters. Every dog has the chance to be tested on two Jackrabbit or rabbit tracks. . Dogs with a false bark without the tracks are not used for breeding.

SIGHT VOICE: Dogs must be reported as sight tracking dogs before they are tested. If scent-tracking dog fails on two Jackrabbit or rabbit tracks, it cannot be tested as sight tracking dog.

LOVE OF WATER
Test for natural desire to work in the water. Test is done in steady or slow running ponds or rivers with easy access and deep enough for dog to swim. Training for water work has to be distinguished from desire to go in the water.

Handling Scored through the whole test.

GUNSHYNESS
Tested at the beginning and two shots are fired 20-30m from dogs walking with their handlers in the circle. Dogs showing some fear are tested again at free range. Scores are pass or fail and disqualification is also a cause for a ban for breeding.


Read more: http://jagineb.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=standard&action=display&thread=463#ixzz1RnMr6Z2I

There is a translation of the score card on the site listed above.

There are guys here in the U.S. who focus heavily on testing.  I agree that some of the testing criteria may not apply.  However, it is a valuable tool and sets a standard that is not open to interpretation by each individual dog owner.  Like it or not better dogs are produced in the long run.
I do not test mine nor have I owned a tested Jagd, but I have some good dogs that are three and four generations out from tested imported dogs.   

Well how about the part where the dog shouldn't be overly aggressive? Don't you think the majority of breeders are producing dogs, even from tested lines, that are suicidally aggressive?

I am no way an expert on the breed.  Yes, probably too many are overly aggressive.  There is a fine line between aggression and prey drive. 

I have one that is overly aggressive and I keep thinking "today will be her last hunt", but some how she keeps coming home.  I have written her off as living on borrowed time.  If you don't mind that part of owning a Jagd it's great. 

Boarding and handling can be a pain, but the trade off is a great hunting dog.  She is fixed so her aggression will not be passed on.   

I need like another 10 years in the breed before I have a good enough base to draw an opinion from.

I don't want to rock anybodies boat, here is an idea that is simply food for thought not trying to say anyone is right or wrong. I have patterdales and the way i hear it Jagds and pats are remarkably similar, pats are much more a ground dog and Jagds are supposed to have the better nose. In my pats, aggression is a good thing so long as it is not directed towards people and unprovoked other dogs, it is not really aggression so much as prey drive. Understanding that they are selected and bred to stay to task regardless the consiquence and trust me you don't need to force them to it, they love it. People just need to hunt them in a way that complements there style. With Jagds and Patterdales terrier still means tenacity. "Hunt then hard and treat them like kings" they'll be disapointed with anything less.

How do they test Jagds with jackrabbits for tracking and voice actually??  Do they take them to a fenced rabbit pen and turn the dog loose or do they take a lead jackrabbit and lay down a track with it and then wait 15 minutes and see if the dog opens when it comes across the 15 minute track???  I wish i had a Jagd magazine to order and a rule book from germandy in english, i love to see the actual rules and how they actually test them.  Most terriers today can not do hole work including mine due to lots of holes are too small for the larger dogs to fit in.  I have been to 3 feild trails for terriers way back in the day, the way the terriers at that event were tested was the owner of the farm had buried with a backhoe several large joints of 6 or 8 inch pvc (cant remember exactly what size may be off) under ground with risers to the ground to pour down rats, red fox or raccon into, the dumped in varmit had a dog proof escape box it could run into with a dogleg where the dog could not continue to keep the dog from killing or injuring the varmit.  But it was close enuff that it could smell live animal and hear it too. We all got 1 inch pvc pipes and put them against the gorund to hear the dog barking, some dens were deeper than others that were only 1 foot deep and barely covered up.  I still remember they guy having to dig up  some dogs who would not get out of the pipe or got stuck or scared and would not come out, some smart peeps let there terriers go into the pvc with a cord around their waist so they could be pulled out backwards.  My got stuck and had to be dug out, he was to big and could not backup, down here we either dug them up out of sand or left them in it and looked the next day to see if they came back to the kennel at the ranch hopefullylol  I have had to push down a tree with a d8 to get under it or chainsaw a tree to get idiot terrier out of it after three days barking a coon once, one time the idito was barking at a huge tree lizard he could not reach and kill for ever, could not beleive all the work for a dime store lizardlol