EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

What are your thoughts on this bull, to be used on a mixed herd. Of beefmaster, red angus, and crossbred commercial cows.  I don't have anything fancy on the place, just a handful of gentle cows that I have been putting together.  I am toying with the idea of having them AI'd rather than buying a bull this year. Figuring I can AI to a much nicer bull than I can afford to buy. Being as I have very limited experience in the cow business, I thought I would ask y'all what you think of this bull.

http://genex.crinet.com/addedattractions/index.php?action=DETAIL&code=%2090AN07415&lang=EN

(http://genex.crinet.com/addedattractions/images/animals/90an7415home.jpg)

Right now, I'd go buy a good, young, grade A bull, with prices where they are.
If it don't rain your gonna have a bunch of good calves that ain't worth nothing and the cost of the semen straws, the A.I. service, the time and fuel.

circle c, i can tell you putin a bull like that on a beefmaster will and should work great. we AI the cows we have it would be nice to have a bull but i just cant justfyi the cost of one.  how many cows are you looking to AI?

Id like to know the succes rate of AI vs pasture breeding.  This virgin bull I have bred about 80% of the cows hes with.  I would like to see 100% success rate but I don't know that AI would give me that.  I figure that bull knows when those cows are in heat a lot better than I ever could.

AI rate at repro select is 68%, $110.00 plus semen. Drop off cows for two weeks, then pick them back up. Semen on this bull is $18.00. No shipping charges, as repro select has it in stock.  If I had a %50 success, I would have ~ $200.00 per calf.

Looking at ~15 cows.

Matt, how old is your bull and how many cows/heifers is he working?

I think if you have the grass you can pick up a good bull for not a lot and have close to 100 percent success.  If u do ai you will have to have a backup bull anyways and good ai people will have higher than 68 percent.  My mom and sister when they were ai ing they had close to 80 85 percent and at tarleton farm we were 75 percent.

He is about 21/2 and he has 14 cows to service.  IMO there should be no open cattle.  There was a cow that palpated well bred and had a calf easter sunday and one of the open cows had a calf in decemeber and has been with the bull since Jan 15.  I dunno how to explain why the three open were open, I am going to sell two of them, the third I am going to keep and just see if she will get bred or if maybe she was just real short bred when we palpated.  She is gentle and raises a nice calf so I figure we can gamble on her, not to mention she eats cubes out of my moms hand along with a few of the others so she will likely never leave  ;D

thats a good looking bull , but for the money i'd rather borrow a good bull to just breed 15 cows .

i'm sure somebodys got 1 they'd rent and let you feed a while pretty cheap .

I'm with jdt. We have been raising calves for a while now. My granddaddy has been in it for over 40 years now. He AI's all of ours and a lot of other people's around here. IMO ( I'm no professional. All I kno I'd what I've learned from my granddad and dad) the BW and WW look real good. If your just lookin for calves to take to the sale barn he Oughta work good for ya. But if your lookin to get some heifers to keep around I'd pay a lil more money for a different bull to produce a better calf. All I know from his bloodlines is the traveler (if that's the same one I kno). I haven't heard of the others which doesn't mean they ain't good. But like I said if your lookin for quality to keep around I'd find a bull with proven bloodlines. If u went with him I think you'd save money rather than buying a bull at his quality or level. Just my 2¢  ;D

JDT,
  That's an option I am currently exploring too. I have a neighbor with what I think is a nice black bull, that put some nice calves on the ground this year. I have asked them to consider leasing him for a few months, but have not heard back yet. Really just trying to see what all options are out there, and what makes the most sense...  With just a handful of cows, I'm not exactly in it for the money, but I also don't want to throw good money after bad either.

Leo Cassass leases bull for i think $150 a month and they check the sperm count before they go out at the vets office, he is in beeville and i think has abot 100 or 200 leased bulls out or did at one time before the drought, not sure but think you have to pick them up and bring them back, ask at the Beeville Livestock barn for his number.

Couple questions then I'll give my opinion. When is your calving season gonna be. Are you gonna keep replacements or sell all calves. Are you just gonna sell calves at auction. How is your stocking rate. For the AI price you gave is that all the expenses included such as shots and yardage. Feel free to add any other info that you feel is relevant

Heck just google "cow for sale" and Leo Casas phone number will pop up I am sure.  That man sells a LOT of what appears to be some nice brahma and branguns cattle from I have seen on the www.

A very good quality young bull can be bought for $3,000.

You should be able to use that bull for three years at least.

At a 90% calf crop that bull will sire 40.5 calves in a 15 cow herd.

Salvage value of the bull, at the end of three years should be at least $1,250 at the packers.

$3,000 - $1,250 = $1,750  

$1,750 / 40.5 calves = a bull cost per calf of $43.21 per calf over three years with a 15 cow herd and a 90% calf crop.

Any open cows should be culled and replaced. Once a cow has come up open it will happen again.

Calving in the fall.
No plans on keeping replacements, however Mandi is liable to get attached to some here and there, so that is a possibility.
Stocking rate is light.
AI price is all inclusive.

silverton broke it down pretty good , 43.21 is a lot better than 200 a calf lol .
if your neighbor joins you just cut a hole in the fence and then you don't have to buy , borrow , or a i   >:D





   posted from my old  computer using tapathakeyboard

43.21 does sound a lot better, provided he stays sound for the three years. Let something happen to him in the first year, and the cost per calf goes up significantly...   I am sure if there was a "best" way, everyone would be doing it...  I appreciate the input so far, and look forward to hearing any additional opinions, as I mentioned earlier, my experience is limited, and I know there are several on here that have been doing this for years. So I am all ears.

As for cutting the fence, it's 9 strands of barbed wire, kinda hard to make it look like an accident. ;D


Glad to see you are at least posting with a keyboard, I figured you were puffing up smoke signals and your neighbor was translating to the computer for you. ;)

haha ha .

  my neighbor is on vacation , i'm having to do thehuntin and peckin myself lol .
 not trying to be a smart ass ( well maybe just alittle ) just havin fun .lol

seriuosly , if i wasnt trying to get a special market and just make some calves to sell , i'd just try to rent or trade for a good bull to use . then send him home and not have to feed him the rest of the year .
cuttin fences is illegal , but sometimes its easier to get forgivenss than permission .  :angel:  just kiddin again


   good luck !

Thee is a guy South of here that leases any kind of bull you want. I agree with what he says, get one for him, use him til your cows are bred and then turn him back in. Dont have to feed him the rest of the year.

Next year you can change colors, sizes whatever to suit you.

That said, AI does the same thing. It helps if you can do it yourself. I used to get $20 a head back in the 80's plus the straw.

As far as the bull you have pictured, he looks god from the side, but I need a straight on from the rear shot to tell you for sure.

How do those leased bulls no end up with Trich?  Do they just give trich guard or something to keep them from getting it?  Seems like it could be a bad deal waiting to happen.

good freind of mine is a genex salesman. he does AIing on small bunches like that. he says you can breed to the best bulls in the nation way cheaper than owning one, but then again, he's a genex salesman....

cornerstone ranch in ft sumner nm has some good black bulls for a really low price. Its cheaper to buy the young bull and breed to it for a few years for us as we are limited on resources for the AI portion of the beef industry where we have the ranch

I ave no Idea, but he leases a lot of bulls, or did when it still rained. If you want, I can get the name and number and you can ask any thing you want. he says call and he'll answer any questions.

Silverton did a good job on numbers. $3000 will get you an extremely nice bull right now with $2500 getting you a really nice bull. Lets say you buy a $2500 dollar bull and base everything on  90% calf crop which means 13.5 calves per year so we will say 13.
1 year 2500/13=192 per calf             salvage value (being very conservative) 1500lbs*.55=825       so 2500-825=1675/13=128
2 years 2500/26= 96 per calf                                                                                                                   1675/26=64
3 years 2500/39=64 per calf                                                                                                                     1675/39=43

These numbers don't account for feed, hay, vaccines, etc. but should give you a good idea.
If you buy a young bull it shouldn't be a problem getting 3 years out of him.
If you buy a bull look at epd's and base them off of the breed average. (in your case birth weight and weaning weight are most important)
Sell everything that doesnt have a calf and replcace cause the ones that don't reproduce still eat.
Leasing is also a good option for a small number of cows.
Is there any particular reason you are calving in fall?

If I had to guess I would say they just trich test bulls after use and if they test positive then the leasee buys the bull.

My line of thinking is this.

As a general rule in my area, the fall is dryer than the spring. And our winters are mild, since the gulf keeps our temperature somewhat warmer than places just 50 miles away from us. I will already be feeding a supplement in the winter, and I have a source for 17% protein, 5% fat feed at $9.50 cwt, so I don't mind feeding some extra in the winter to wet cows. I'd like to think that I can calve in October /November, then have spring and summer pasture for the calves, and sell as feeders in August...

Now there may be tons of holes in my plan, and I am certainly open to suggestion, but that's where I am at currently.

I would say buy a bull the work that goes into ai is not worth it. My dad ai's it ain't worth it. Not for commercial cattle.

ai is worth it when you are producing the super bulls and cows but ai for commercial cattle seems like overkill without the benefits