EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

just a question on terminology . i here the term [till they lost it ] used on here alot my question is if your dogs can find and trail a hog how can they [ loose ] the hog after a break on a red hot track  . or do they lack bottom and just quit a bad hog . let the discussion begin .

Interesting topic... and a very complex one from what I've experienced...

Some dogs with good nose just can't seem to "figure it out" due to whatever(dry conditions/high wind/too much scent, etc.)...

Some quit it because they're just sorry and don't want to have to work for it...

Some quit because they physically can't go anymore, regardless if they can or want to...

Some are just smart enough to quit because they've learned which times you will come to help them and which times you won't...(what I personally prefer)

... and I'm sure there are just as many shades inbetween...

You trying to hurt peoples feelings?  If they think about your question they might get hurt.

.   
 
Haha, only hurts people's feelings who like a dog with limitless bottom... For those of us that don't have the luxury of hunting massive properties, a dog with too much bottom is a liability... A dog that knows when to quit one, however, is actually sought after where I'm from

I used to want a dog that wouldn't quit on a hog....until I had one.  Spent more time hunting that dog than the hogs.  If a dog can't stop a hog within a couple of miles I'd rather it quit and come back to me.

Hahaha! Your serious aren't you?

good so far now i'll be the first one to say i've had some dogs QUIT a  hog [i prefer to call them back via a horn or by hollerin ] . but i want to know how they could loose a red hot big boar hogs scent . when they can find it in   high wind,  too much scent ? dry cond. to begin with . i'm not tryin to hurt no ones feelings just an old man tryin to learn something new  >:D  >:D

Just last week I had a super long race the dogs lost it at a conservation lake after trailing this hog over 4 miles and having it bayed several differnt times it was just to thick for us to ever catch up to em.

This sport aint for folks with thin or soft skin! If u cant take constructive criticism, u might want to take up knitting or beginner cookn classes. U learn from ur mistakes and listen to others mistakes and compile a new stratogy for huntin. U need to be able to act like a spounge n soak in the info put out whether it b good on ur feeling or hard on them. Life is full of mistakes, as long as u dont do them again or make preperation to limit them, then ur learning from them. My dogs will just up n quite a hog some times from lack of bottom or give a damn to keep huntn and bc i dont hav all the land or connection for land to keep them in the woods, along with me not hm much myself. Some may say my dogs suck compaired to theirs, but if its just an insult with out info n guidance to tell me what im doing worng. I take it with a grain of salt n think that mayb their spouse sucks to be around n thats why they hav more time to hunt n get their dogs better. JMO

This is a good topic halfbreed.

I will tell you how I've seen it happen. They didn't loose a hog with their nose or lack of bottom. It was all in their mind in my opinion.
Simply getting distracted after overrunning a track or a hog that loops back and runs right through the middle of the hunting party or something like that. I think it's easy for some young and inexperienced dogs to miss or overrun a track and then get distracted and confused.
The times I was sure it happened, it was almost always my fault because I came between them and the hog they were running.

Old dogs are hard to fool and get off task though. ;)

You think they lost it because it swam a section of the lake?

I have seen a dog loose a track when hogs have crossed a big river and refuse to swim it. I have also seen older dogs run a track to the river, search up and down the bank trying to figure it out and then swim the river and find the hog or at least pick up the track again.
I have also seen dog follow a track to the river and never slow down. Run and jump strait in, pick up the track on the other side, and go and find the hog without seeing the hog cross.
Young dogs will see that river as a barrier and not even consider that the hog crossed it if they have never seen a hog swim a river before.
I ain't getting at anything here. Just sharing some of my observations. 

Thats a good testimonial ninja and will hold true forever. Aint seen a dog do it for a hog, but did c it for coons.

this thead ain't meant to insult nobody or their dogs like i said iv'e had a few busted bays that didn't produce no sausage . but after the break and race i just allways said [dang dogs run the hell out of em and finally quit em ] now i did put that [lack of bottom in to stir the pot just a little  ;D    ]  just wanting to see everybody's point of view are your dogs actually loosing the hogs or quitting . because on that hot of a track in my opinion they shouldn't loose it . and now that i'm running these hound crosses i'm hopeing they don't do either but i want a hell of a handle on em so i can call em off cause my space is limited like everybody elses .  continue

One thing i've noticed over the summer is a group a dogs running one, then at one point in the race just fanning out and falling apart. Like the hog disappeared in thin air... seen it several times this summer. We just scratched our heads and figured it was because of the super dry conditions?

Other times, the hog will hit a big thicket, round around in it for an hour or two in circles... then sneak out the back door. The Garmin screen looks like a crackhead with an etch-a-sketch. By the time the dogs line it out, that hog is usually in the next county.

I guess you could call that a loose? Cause it sure ain't from lack of bottom. ;)

crackhead with etch-a-sketch

lmao

For what its worth, heres how I see it. If it happens pretty often, they quit. If they get it put on 'em once in a blue moon, then they lost it. The right hog in the right spot can make any dog look bad. Don't ask me how a big nasty stinking hog can lose a dog, but they can. I've had dogs that have stayed on a hog over 24 hours before and have had the same dogs look like crap in an hour. It didn't happen but very few times, but it happened.

 Well, I think that people say the dogs lost a hog and mean it the same as when you are fishing and you get a nibble, set the hook and come up with nothing. Then you tell people you lost a good one.  ;D

But I have noticed with our dogs that if its hot, no water in sight, and they are on a running hog headed through the thicket, they will have less bottom than when its cool or if they have water to get in and cool off.

I have also seen when they chasing a hog through a dense area and then all of a sudden on the garmin the dogs all split up and work the heck out of one area and zig and zag and backtrack until finally coming back to us. I think they have lost the hog.

Either way, if they quit it or loose it, I will probably still say " we lost a good one the other day"  :D  Just my terminology of choice!  ;D

a good dog shouldn't lose the track but I have seen good dogs get out ran by a hog. The reason... the dogs are out of shape and over heat and the hogs stick to the real thick stuff where the dogs can't keep up.

another reason is the dogs are bayed deep where we can not get to them and eventually they give it up and come in...

The dog has to have a real good reason for quitting the track or for sure it is taken off the breeding list and more than likely is going to the replacement list as soon as another pup steps up.

There has to be a good reason why the dog quit and no excuses...no rose colored glasses here...


The dogs quitting sometimes has to do with the hunting style of the handler.

  I'm serious but I think its funny.  There's always those people that think there dogs have endless bottom.  There dogs just lot the hog when they came back.  :D

Wow, I really thought that my dogs just sucked because I have seen this happen to me a whole lot. It's good to see that even the professional internet hog hunters have the same problem at times.

A couple of weeks ago the pups jumped a hog and ran it to some thick stuff a few hundred yd off in a bottom and spent over an hour in less than five acres before giving it up. They tried hard but I really think he circled and zig zagged around and snuck out.

Also the most seasoned dog I have has been in the woods just over a year and has never really run with an older dog but is just working off of natural ability. There are times that I think that they just don't have the experience to figure every track out, but they are learning.

thats when it comes down to quitting or looseing my worst problem spots were ready for harvest wheat fields . there dry dusty and are murder on dogs and i know the dogs quit [dont blame em ] but they would come back in and load up and we would drive around the edges or walk on smaller feilds and they would pick it up and go on . but i know they didn't loose the scent that wheat is hell on their eyes . but none the less at the end of the day as good a dog as they were they quit a track .

That's why it is called hog hunting... :)sometimes we catch em and sometimes not...But it is a good game and we have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a better plan of attack... ;D


My favorite time of the year to dog the hogs is just after deer season when it is cold or cool and all the weeds are dead/down. The dogs don't over heat and they can eventually catch up and stop a running hog. The weeds don't become a problem here until mid to late April.

Here's my thoughts....until we can smell what our dogs do...we will never actually understand what it is to run a hog through the woods by smell ....we can speculate all we want...but that's all it really is....just guessing. We will never know.

speculating, analyzing, telling the story as it unfolds is a big part of the game. :) ;D
It just makes us better dogmen. ??? :)

I agree Reuben. Trying to figure out what didn't go right and making excuses are two different things.

i always thought that the hog was running for his life and knew what time it was.. not so much dog smart. but that he dont care about nothing but running threw everything to save his life...and getting away.. we just say he ran for his life.. and the dam dogs just was not fast enough..jmo

it used to be funny watchin the dogs out in the wheat . the hog scent would be so strong but the dogs couldn't see squat . they would be jumpin like kangaroos lookin for the hog of course he'd done made his way out of the field .thats when i'd call em in and work the outside to pick em up again .

I agree with Noah. I like a dog that will run one 30 minutes to an hour at the most.
I am there to hunt hogs not dogs  ;)

X2 I would rather the dog come back after a little while and try catching another one. Instead of spending half a day to maybe catch that "one that got away". Jmo

thats ok for recriational hunting . but when you are trying to get that big boar hog thats been terrorizin the farmers tryin to grow crops to make a living . IT BECOMES PERSONAL TO ME !!  now i could cheat and bait out a spot and shoot him [ but then why am i feeding dogs ? ] and thats in my opinion why  all these hogs have started running like deer , because they know that if they never stand their ground the dogs will quit them. and thats the main reason for me breeding into the runnin dogs . lookin for more bottom and nose  and GRIT . now i may live to regret it but i'm in it to win it . i keep enough food in my truck when i go a huntin to last a couple of days . BUT I WANT BIG OL NASTY DEAD DEAD DEAD . i got in this to kill hogs . anymore it ain;t fun it's work but i still have fun doing it .all i here on here mostly is about bottom but it seems the general consenses is we only want about an hour and a half to two hours worth of bottom . correct me if i'm wrong . i'd rather get on here and talk about dogs and breeding and tactics than about the weather so excuse me. not knockin anybodys dogs mine dang sure ain't perfect YET  but i'll never quit tryin just lookin for a discussion about your personal expiriences . i've only hunted with about three other people did most all of my hunting  solo  for years .

I think that a dog with no quit and can stop a hog in 1 hour is a good dog or pack of dogs. The hogs know to hit the thick stuff and they know a dog can not keep up in this kind of thick vegetation so that is where they go hide or run in. They also learn that most dogs will give up looking when they hide in the real thick briar patches.

If the weeds are down the dogs should stop the hog pretty quick, there shouldn't be any excuses...just good reasoning to improve on.

I agree with HalfBreed...

these are just my thoughts. i know some hogs will just flat out run! not trien step on any toes. these dogs with all that bottom do bay up hogs. but from what i have seen and hunted with, these dogs run one till it just cant go any further. do these dogs lack the grit to turn and make it stand and by up? do they live for the chase? and i realize the variables, thick brush ETC. it seems like everyone wants running bottom. the bottom i want is the kind that makes a dog stick with hog for hours bayed up till i get there. to me thats real bottom not given up till the hogs caught once it`s stopped and bayed. i may very well be in over my head on this one.

chris it would have to get pretty deep to get over your head big as you are  ;D  ;D but in all honesty they can't bay up what they can;t catch up to . i don't have much trouble with broken bays got enough grit and bottom to hold just about anything. and i said just about, not all i've been whooped a few times . but when they strike a hog i expect em to finish it !! i can't see them loosing a stinkin boar hogs trail when most times even us poor nosed humans can smell it . this is just a discusison on opinions i'll allways give mine . thats how we learn ,after 12 years doing this i'm not above learning from more exp. hog hunters . now you wanna talk treehounds you're talkin to a fence post   ;D  ;D

I agree with Chris and HalfBreed... 8)

can't stop what the dogs can't catch up to. But I like a dog that when he catches up to do all he can to stop the hog. The goal is to breed better dogs that can stop a hog as quick as possible...But at the same time have the bottom to run for hours as needed.

A dog that runs for hours as needed is a dog that will make you worry and possibly get you in trouble. I have wrestled with this for many years...I like grit and I like for the dog to stick until he catches what is on the other end of the tracks...ain't sayin we will catch all but that is the goal.

So if I like all that bottom and stick, and a dog that can stop a hog then it makes sense to breed rough dogs...a rough dog that will go as far as needed but will stop the hog the first chance he gets...

might be wrong but that is how I see it...I just don't care for a dog that quits a track and looks for an easier hog to catch...that is a cull in my book...

OH ???and then when the dog is to gritty and makes the hog bay I get conused and wonder if loose baying is better.......I have wrestled with that one too but have decided rougher until it works...

am I confused or what? :o ;D

does get perplexing don't it . kinda like christmas and you're told you can have any one item what do you want.

thats an easy one! i want a super star hog dog! i want him to strike, stop, bay till i get there and catch on commmand! i think that is the one dog on all our list. ;D

or back up if I decide to shoot... 8)

I've seen even the best hog dogs lOse one in these conditions. They don't make a habit of it, but occasionally they just act like they can't find it anymore. The hog simply ram the scent out from under them in this desert we're hunting in lately. I also think alot of people's dogs quit a track early simply as a lack of bottom, and people mistake it for losing the hog

now we are getting somewhere . thanks shelly i didn't wanna come out and say it . but lets all just take a deep breath ,relax , and admit it sometimes my dogs quit a bad hog to go and find an easyier one . and as a result that paticular hog when pressed by dogs the next time will never even  think about slowing down.  if i ever thought my dogs noses was so bad that they couldn't work out and restart a hog i'd trash my whole breeding theory and start over useing nothing but bloodhounds .

good track dogs usually do not lose a track but might give it up if out of shape and over heating. Some won't cross a wide river and some will give up if the hog is sitting in the middle of a thick briar patch that is 10-20 acres in size and a dog has trouble trying to go in. Just some of this things I have seen.

I also believe that dog handling styles has a lot to do with how a dog hunts, including stick/bottom...

Actually I like both types, if ive got a big place and dont have to go to work I want dogs that wont quit. If ive only got a few hrs to hunt or smaller place I want a dog that wont stick for days.
   But Reuben brings up a good point about how the dogs are handled, I think sometimes we might teach our dogs to have less bottom. Say you go to calling them in everytime they get so far out or so far behind a hog, the dogs learn to quit a bad runner and go find an easier one.
But you have different variables to consider, up here it might take couple hrs just to get to the dogs, so if they aint got enough bottom to stick, and stay bayed for hrs, you aint gonna see much pork.
    I can see both sides, and see how both types work better under certain circumstances.
   But my 1st choice is gritty, "not catchy" dogs that with alot of bottom.
But at the same time, I have seen dogs put on a red hot track, and loose the track, or have it blow up, more than once. My opinion is the dogs just over run the track out of excitement. But a good dog should be able to realize this and circle back and pick it back up, but dont always happen.

Its always good to have a dog that will go all day on boar but I simply don't have the time to chase a dog all day.  I went not long ago with my buddy and his dog will stick with a runner all day long and I had to call in to work that day and still never caught the pig. Had my dogs in the box 3hrs before we got his back. I guess it just depends on the hunter and what they  prefer. Jmo

id rather have a dog that goes out and checks in, i always hunted small areas so a runner is not a good thing

also most of my dogs were eyesight to short range anyway

Well, I will take a dog that's stays hooked no matter what kind of country I'm hunting and expect them to run a hog to hell and back if they have to. I'm funny like that though.  :D I will take a 10 pound bass over five 2 pounders also but my plan is always to catch all I can. Same goes for hog hunting with me.

Just because a dog has a ton of bottom doesn't mean it is going to run a hog all over hell and Texas every time he finds one.     
In my book, the right kind of dog will put just the right pressure on a hog to keep it bayed no matter how far it has to run him........if he has to run him at all.

 

I agree...

I like the idea of adding gritt until the hog gets stopped at the first oppurtune time and expect the dogs to stick until it gets done...the sooner the better...that's the goal...

doesn't happen that way all the time but that is the goal

huh must be too sensetive a discussion . all the members on here with all them super dogs with all that bottum everybody talks about i thought it would get more of a response . guess i was wrong or maybe i just got my answer .  >:D  >:D

Halfbreed, I don't call those super dogs... I call them hog dogs. I've hunted with several folks on here that have those type dogs, I'm even fortunate to own a couple. After running a hog 5 to 10 miles, 3 to 4 hours or more... who knows if they lost it or quit it? But they get an "A" for effort in my book.

 ;D  ;D  just stirring the pot   ;D  ;D

Ok here goes, I spent they last 20 yrs studying dogs that track coons,cows,deer,rabbits,hogs,drugs,people,biscuits. Ok you get the point, I still can't answer your question.

This is what I did. I found a walker gyp that is the definition of bottom. And added some young plotts. I like me some hound for the nose and noise. Add my partners curs that are hog dogs. Not many get away.we hunt big country with lots of hogs also.

That being said we did not stop a hog the other night. Why? my best guess is no grass or weeds to leave much sent along with some plowed ground and dry weather. But the kicker I think was very low humidity. When you talk to the old hound hunters that know all the good excuses and when you boil it down the thicker the air the better the nose.

OK as far as the Super dogs that will stay on one for several miles and stay bayed till someone comes to them.     It's the same ones as described above.

I was a distillation tech/supervisor in a chemical plant for 32 years. One of the things I learned is low humidity and dry and how it works.


The simplest and easiest way to explain it is low barometric pressure tends to make it easier for evaporation which in my mind would cause the scent to rise or evaporate at a faster rate.

dry weather with low humidity does the same and the lower the humidity the faster the evaporation rate...this will cause the scent to rise and or dissipate. This will also make it for harder trailing conditions...

that is why evaporation makes it feel real nice and cool during low humidity conditions...and as you have noticed we appear to not be sweating. Well, we are sweating but due to low humidity we have a high evaporation rate so that is what gives us the cooling effect. Evaporation carries the heat away from our bodies and the same evaporation carries the scent away and the dogs can not smell the track for the same reasons...Also a winding type dog would not be able to smell what is not there which is scent that has risen over his head/nose. It is possible for a dog to wind the game if the wind is strong enough to sweep the scent along the ground. I think this is why some dogs are running the hog about 50 yards behind in the thick briars and on the down and crosswind side of the hog because they are running off the scent in the wind, this is when there is a good crosswind.

When the humidity is high we sweat quite a bit and we can't seem to cool because of not having the evaporation to carry off the heat. The same reason for tracking and winding. The scent tends to stay in the track longer due to less evaporation so the dogs can trail and wind better.

In my opinion a dog can wind better and for a longer range when the conditions are right for winding. I believe the humidity has to be somewhat low for evaporation to occur and a good wind to carry the scent closer to the ground and somewhat cooler weather to help keep the scent low as well as a higher barometric pressure...not all of these have to apply but I am talking about optimim winding conditions.

These are all my theoretical bull hocky idea's... :o ;D but like I used to tell the engineers at work...since no one here knows the answer my theories are fact until you can prove them otherwise... ;D :) 

this has been a good thread ! rueben , thank you , you have made my day , now i can back up all dogs mistakes  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's interesting because that night we got cold.I think the humidity was like 38%.  Hot day cold night.  Desert conditions

              MAN IN MY BOOK YA HIT THE NAIL ONE THE HEAD YOU MUST BE A MIND READER :)

I never say much on here but i keep up with the board.
 
There is a big difference between a dog that wants to run a hog and stop a hog. Not saying they have to catch it just pinch here and bite there. I cant stand a rough dog but love a gritty dog.

People that are happy with heart less dogs are the reason its so hard to find a good line of dogs any more. If a dogs quits a hog alot he aint going to be on my feed bill...

hell i knew stirring the pot would wake yall up  ;D  thats what i was lookin for in this topic anyway . you know good nights verses bad nights and weather and ground conditions as a factor . hell i been talkin to my friend in arizona about getting some dry ground cat hound blood being as it looks like it may never rain again here in east texas . funny how they can work and jump an ol cat after hours of cold trailin in some of the worst cond. i've ever seen .

what kind of dogs they run for them cats are they ruff -gritty -catchy or what ever ya wanna call it these days

from what they tell me it's mostly a blen of walker dogs alot of them are red and white probley some blood hound in em like the majestics they run to catch and kill or tree . alot of em don't make it kinda like hog huntin . thats one of the things on my bucket list yet to do personally i ain't been yet but a friend of mine knows a bunch of them boy's . his granpa used to be a gov. hunter . i met him in 1973 when in usmc and we became friends right off after he showed me a picture of him with a jaguar sittin in his lap that was killed on the ariz/ mex border . that cat must of wieghed 200 lbs

wow thats good stuff

I been huntin a new part of the country due to a temporary move and all we got here is runners. Seems to me the only thing we get is the crack head echisketch. We have also had two boars that my lacy dog struck and soon as we got close for one of the other dogs (dogs in training basically) to go to her, the hog breaks right when they get there, does a loop, then comes back and tries to hunt us down. Both these boars ran strait through our groupe, one of them got my buddy, Zach, in the leg then he did the echisketch in about a two mile diameter around us for four and a half hours before I started callin lacy back, the other did the same thing to me but I got out the way and started callin her back right away and called it a night.

One thing I have noticed is when my buddies dogs fell out quick, it was dogsthat ain't gettin off the chain but about once a week. which might be the same issue alot of other people are having. It's not that the dogs ain't good or don't have bottom, but that the dogs ain't legged up and ready to hunt to their full potential. Heck, one of the dogs that fell out a couple times was a plot hound. And from the ones I seen, that breed in general has some bottom. But it's hard to run a marathon when you been sittin on your rear end not training for it.

I'm not doggin on people that don't have there dogs legged up and are losing pigs cuz of it. I know people got jobs and school and whatnot, me and all my buddies are students so I don't complain when we can't get my lacy dog some help. But in my opinion, hog dogs are like anything in life, you get out of them what you put in them. If I don't get a chance to hunt, I'll hit some back roads for a couple hours and make the dogs run with the truck a couple times a week cd included, and I don't ever have a problem with my dogs stickin to pigs, my dogs just have a problem with me not havin enough bottom haha!

I don't think the humidity has ever been 38% here.....most days it's closer to 138%.  :(

Most days here it's 80 or better.

I did get me a lion dog .I call her Big Game. She is a plott x . I would consider selling her.

i've got a runnin walker bred dog [little tree blood in her not much ]  she come outta idaho big game dogs . i don't use her on hogs mostly b-cats and yoates and stuff . she'll run a hog but wide open . and you gotta make shure you have a full tank of gas when you decide to turn her out on anything . cause if she hits a yoate track first she's gone . ;D  i never did trash break her cause i like to have at least one dog to run whatever i put her on . she will even get you a five pound possum   ;D but anyway thats the runnin blood i put in my catahoulas .

x2.
Had that happen quit a few times this summer.

x2...Good comments there Casey...


My first interpretation of a dog that wants to run a hog is a dog that lacks the grit to stop a hog and will not put teeth on one...I hate that kind of dog.

The other kind of dog that wants to run a hog is a rough dog that wants to fight the hog and does not have that natural inclination to stop it...this dog breaks bays and this dog wants to kill the hog but usually is good for breaking the bay as previously mentioned. We know that a 50 pound cur is not going to kill a hog but that seems to be this type of dogs mentality.

A gritty dog you are talking about I assume is one that puts enough pressure to stop one and then is content to back up and bay if the hog does not run...

Sounds easy but 1 or 2 extra gritty dogs can do the stopping very well on a big boar but 3 or more of the same type and they will push it a while until they can all get on him in an open area where the dogs can maneuver...

this has been the area that makes me want to pull out what little hair I have left... ;D

If you would please break it down and explain your views on your comment that I quoted...