EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

This has perplexed me for some time.  It's another one of those qualities that separates a good dog from a great one.  I watched my Ellie dog do it last night, she was roading and hit a crossing track at full stride... she made a hard 90, only to slam on the breaks, spin around and go the correct direction... a decision made in less than about 2 seconds.  I can only surmise that the dog is somehow able to tell an older from a fresher track in less than 10 feet... I don't know,  anybody else have a theory?

On the hunt, Ellie and Shiner ended up baying the hog up, however, in an attempt to be "fancy" and use the Garmin to get around closer... we ended up getting lost and left the dogs on the hog for almost 2 hrs rolleyes.  By the time we got back the hog had lost them in a creek and the dogs begrudgingly came out to us.

If I'd just used my Wildlife and gone to them, I'd have a picture to show you... >:( ... Oh well, lesson learned.   On the positive side, Shiner stuck with Ellie the whole time, and was still hunting wide open at 10:30 last night as I snagged her on her way by.  The dog's already got more hunt to her than anything I've ever had.

Congrats on your Shiner dog turning out with great expectations. I think some dogs are better at learning hot from cold, then others and sometimes it just depends on the situation, as sometimes it is just obvious and others times they have to go a little further to determine proper direction. I really don't mind waiting on one to play it out as long as they are working & trying and put hogs at the end of it.

I've watched ours do that, follow a track the wrong way, stop, turn around and then head in the right direction and before you know it, a bay. It is interesting watching them figure out which way the track is the hottest. I wonder if they get better doing that with experience or if the dog just "has it" and some don't? Or is it a combination of the two?

I'm just trying to figure out how they do it in such a small area.... it's almost like they can see what direction the track is pointing on the road...

If I put that much thought in it my brain would explode, lol

heres another doosie for ya , ive seen beagles run a coon all the way to the tree , circle it a time or 2 and then take the track backwards without ever looking up the tree . looks like they would know it went up , but i guess thats not in their vocabulary .

i'll bet mike has a theory on this one. his dog blue used to do that, backtrail a bit, figure out the right direction and go to the hog. i've always thought this was pretty cool to watch myself. really makes you respect a good dog's nose.
then again maybe they're just looking at the direction of the hoof tracks :D :P

I am not sure, but I wish some of my younger dogs would hurry up and figure it out.

Great post Noah.  I've asked myself the same quesiton a bunch of times in the field.  I don't have a clue as to how they work it out but I'm glad they do. 

My best guess is that their noses are so sensitive they can figure out if the scent is getting stronger or weaker even over a very short distance. 

A dogs nose if taken apart and each peice laid in on square foot of floor space would cover a full size garage.

Dogs that back track were in some cases started wrong. When you make a drag for example you drop your drag and walk off.............when you take the dog to the trail, where do most start the dog from....the place they started the drag from. This is backwards from how the trail would be. To make a proper drag you start your drag from where you want to end up, this way the strongest smell is at the end where the animal would be.

When we turn hogs loose for young dogs, lets say from a trap a hog has been in for a couple days, where is the strongest smell.......at the trap and at the start of the trail because the hog has been there for a long time again a backwards trail.

You trun a hog loose for young dogs and dump water on it.........they trail it a ways and come back....you complain they dont know what they are doing.......you set them up for that, where is the strongest smell......

I use the term "you" which means "me" in reallity.........since I have done all these things and complained about the dogs, when its really my fault.

I have watched hogs run off from in the road and turn dogs loose and they know hogs were there but keep coming back to where they arent....this is because the strongest smell is where they were all bunched up standing.
As someone mentioned.........experiance is a huge key but there are a few things we can do to help them, the main one is think about what we are doing when starting dogs, never set your dog for failure, this is usually done unknowing. The KEY is to think ahead about the outcome.

Thought process is something no one talks about in the dog world, we dont cause we dont understand it. All i know is............not all dogs think alike.......could it be IQ.......who knows.......there are for sure some dogs smarter than others. I have watched my top dog study and work on a trail for an hour like a doctor pouring over a medical book trying to figure out that unknow killer cancer, with other dogs standing watching him.

Ill end my ramble now......

Good stuff TxMav.  About the reverse drag thing for training purposes,  wouldn't you want the scent to be "fresher"(if that is indeed what a dog is going by when they determine direction of a track) at the end of the trail(where the pig would be) rather than the beginning.   Setting up the drag your way would leave more volume of scent at the pig end, but it would be technically older than the scent at the beginning.  I'm pretty sure my dog would run that track the way you drug it, backwards... I think ;D  Sounds like a good test to do after a few bud lights ;)   I do see how that would probably work on a young dog to "jumpstart" them though.

On the intelligence of dogs, I believe that with massive amounts of time spent with a dog, one can raise just about any dog to genius level.   Any dog I've ever had that I really like gets "inside time" and goes with me everywhere, I feel it really grows their thinking capabilities which makes them better at everything.  Cross training for the brain shall we say.

It would depend on what you are useing to make the drag.............when i talk about a drag i am referring more to the type of drag you would make for say a cat dog than a hog dog............really how many of us hog hunters make drags at all.......we just turn one loose.

It's the the concept of high end training that I'm trying to understand.... everybody knows there ain't no science to making a hog dog ;) ;D   A good friend of mine produces wildcat dogs, from what he's described that seems to be one of the harder dogs to produce(from the prices he charges for a finished dog alone :o).  I'd like to try it.

this is a really good subject .  i think when a young dog comes back looking perplexed like that  the natural thing to do should be the last thing we do .   instead of  getting aggravated , even if  we  know which way the hog went we should encourage them and try to send them the right way and give them time to figure it out .

    in rolling country or any country for that matter that scent will swirl and drift around in funny ways . beleive me i made a real ass of myself to a whole bunch of puppies  before i understood how scent really worked and travelled.
         
                  sorry for the detour , as for the ?  ithink thats what might make the difference in a find dog and a help dog when you get right down to it . i also beleive that puppys allowed to run loose learn ALOT of this stuff before they are ever even started . JMO

JDT, what do you think they are noting when they decide a direction?

noah , idont understand your last  ?    what does noting mean , ?

Maybe I didn't spell it correctly... what do you feel the dogs are noticing when they decide the direction?

I have put a little thought into this subject over the years and I came to the conclusion that the dogs have to figure it out for themselves, usually learned from other dogs that they work with.  I think that  a scent trail is much like  boat wake, wider and less concentrated the further back from the hog, therefore kinda making an arrow if you will in which way he has gone.  Kind of a silly analogy, but its my only thoughts on this subject.

Joey

thats a good analogy , i think joey . when training young dogs on cattle ive watched them work a trail where ididnt think they should be . finally i just shut up and let themm figure it out . seems like they have to go to the edge of that boat wake and then go down the side of it in the direction that its strongest . depending on the wind and terain that wake might be right where they went or it might be stronger over against a hill or tree line where the scent has something to stick to.

                          id give anything to be able to get inside a dogs head and listen to what their thinking sometimes , it would make me a better trainer for sure .

 id give anything to be able to get inside a dogs head and listen to what their thinking sometimes , it would make me a better trainer for sure .


Im scared mine would be thinking some terrible things about me! lol

Joey

Experience. Watch a dog with 100 hogs under its belt vs one with 1500... its no comparison.

This comes from a book I have Called "Meet Mr. Grizzly" by Montague Stevens (1943)

He used hounds to hunt grizzlys and owned a ranch out west where he often had his hired hands lay human scent trails for his hounds to learn from.  Which is why he says the trail of a man.

"While there is no yard-stick by which to measure the keenness of a hounds scent, there is, however, a way in which to get an approximate idea.  When a hound approaches the trail of a man at right angles, and scents the trail in the air, how does he know weather the man went to the right or two the left?  Usually he takes the correct end of the trail; that is, the way the man went, the other way being called his back trail.  But sometimes, due probably to the wind or some other atmospheric condition, the hound is not sure which way to go and he will run some 20 yards in each direction alternately several times, untill he has fully made up his mind which is the right end of the trail to take.  The question therefore arises: how much difference is there in the strength of the scent twenty yards one side or the other of a given point.  That difference is the measure of the keenness of a hound's scent"

This guy also beleived that often times a dog will run a trail by scenting the the air on one side or the other of the actual trail which is where the scent has disperced to, often due to the wind.  Ive seen dogs run a trail 10 or so yards off of where the hog actually ran by a min or so before.  Chances are the dog was on the down wind side of where the hog ran which is where the scent would be the strongest

Waylon

Man, great excerpt, that's pretty cool to see someone contemplate the same idea that long ago.

Noah some call this drifting the track when a dog picks its head up and runs the track on the wind not an expert but like previously stated most likely down wind very interesting to watch all this take place i know u hate my hounds but notice if a hog crosses where the dogs cross after never the same place 5 10 25 yards downwind when u get back call me i have a book that goes into detail

Ive been hunting and training hounds for thirty years and this question has been asked a thousand times in as many hunts. the truth of it is they hit the track the wrong way as often as they hit it the right way! contrary to a post earlier, the track deminishes (smell) as the track gets older, the theory behind what he was explaining is right only in that a drag runs out of smell but a animal doesnt as a matter of fact thier smell intensifies as they begin to get hot and sweat. there are several factors that contribute to the rate of the deterioration of a track, moisture, wind ,temperature, etc.

the hotter a track is the more likely a dog is to start it the wrong way, after being on the track for a bit the dog figures out that the further he takes the track that its either getting stronger or its getting weaker. He instinctively knows if its getting stronger he can run it faster and harder. If its deteriorates on him he will turn around and run it the other way.

I know you have seen a dog get excited and start running around rapidly in circles with his tail wagging vigerously and you have probably said he smells one! well you were right and the reason he is all over the place is because he is trying to figure out witch direction to run the track!

in a few mins he is gone and shortly after he is bayed! does this make since?