EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

In the breedings I have made and those of friend's I have studied, I have been able to pick out the "squirrels" fairly early... the dogs that, no matter the time invested, seem to have a "kink" and basically act like a wild coyote if you know what I mean....

I have spent the time and effort to try and overcome this "quirk", but have come to terms that because it is such an obvious trait to pick out... it is usually the second to be culled for(second only to conformation)...

Of my last litter out of Shine x Willie, 2/10 were "squirrels"... built extremely well, I kept them and worked with them, to no avail... once a squirrel, always a squirrel...

... SO, to my point of the evening... lol...  Had my eye on a dog for a while now... first time I saw him I was immediately taken by his phyiscal presence... One of those dogs any student of performance animals couldn't but help look at and say "DAMN"..... ;D  ... Let's just say he built right....

The dog, "Bob" lets call him  ;D, has been used as a straight, send in catch dog his whole life...  in fact, they actually refer to him as a "bulldog"... but bulldog he ain't...  He is a FINE specimen of "hard" Florida Cur...   

... when I first met "Bob", I was actually down south hunting for a stud prospect for my lead gyp Shiner... I found "Willie" on that trip, but "Bob" was Willie's backup... the catch to the bay...

...Bob was known for being cranky and fickle.... that bad attitude got him sent on down the line... but... I later found out that those that knew him decided to breed him to some "baydogs" for some more baydogs... which confused me at first...  I mean, breeding a straight catch dog to a bay dog?  Hmmmm...


(Intermission, feel free to go get another beer, cuz I am....  ;D )

Grab 2. It will stall the next intermission.  ;D

"Breeding catch back into a line"....

So... In my last litter, I tried to breed the "head catch" out of my gyp... by breeding her to a dog that was super gritty, but had no "catch" to him...  sounded good right?   ;D   Well, out of the 4 pups surviving of that litter... 2 I would consider "fairly gritty", but by no means, as gritty as Shine was at their age... The stud dog certainly knocked the "suicidal" nature out of them... that is a fact...

.... Now I have yet to see these pups really tested to fruition yet to base a final decision on the cross... this spring will tell me alot as they will be a yr and a half and should be truly catching gear.... but my gut tells me I miss the "catch" factor already... I do not want my individual dogs baying a 100# pig.    One dog by itself should eat a hog like this for dinner...

... Which has brought my stud selection thoughts for the next go-round on my Shine dog... back to the rough side... ;) :)

... Re-enter "Bob"... Precisely what I want in that type of stud... built flawlessly, hard catching... the rest should take care of itself right...  :D ;D

.... THEN I hear about the "squirrel factor" of "Bob's" last two litters....  rolleyes ;D

..apparently old "Bob" has thrown a high percentage(good lookin' mind you  ;D ) "squirrel" factor in both of his last litters... to the point, that those involved have chosen to cease breeding him because of it...

CHIT.  That's about all I got to say about that.

Noah,

I was recently training some dogs for some buddies up North. There were 2 squirrels in the litter they came from. Neither got a ride back up to YankeeLand. Can they be trained? Yes!  Is it worth it? NO!!!!  To many nice dogs to spend good quality time in the timber with. I can't stand pissing my time away on someone's squirrelly prospect. My perspective anyway.   ;)

Noah, please explain the "squirrel factor" in greater detail. Some of my line are twisted a little tight and I want to know if the trait is the same that I am experiencing.

Agreed... the thought that is on my mind... at what point in trying to pull good genetics out do you factor in the bad that might come with it... Yes, I could cull 7/10 squirrels and get 3 of what I was after... but that's a high price to pay considering what might, at that point, turn out from the remaining 3...

Genetics are truly a strange thing... sometimes when you see something you really like, it is worth the sacrifice to achieve the goal...  never an easy decision however.


Basically, I seem to see it from a fairly early age(5wks and on)... they tend to be loners, not respond to human contact... cower, hide in the corner...  moreover, as they get older, it seems to be an inability to communicate with humans that really gets in the way... you find yourself spending more time acclimating the dog to new things than working on the task at hand... a waste of time when compared to a pup/dog that looks to be your friend/please you from day one...

Noah,
In the litter I was speaking of, both parents were normal. Nothing even close to twisted in the least. However, the sire's dam was known as a squirrell. What I'm saying is lets say you keep 2 perfect acting pups that are by this "BOB".  It would really suck 3 years down the road to find that they pass a high percentage of this trait to thier pups. You have to ask yourself, is that time wasted or research answered?  Dog feed costs too much these days for me to take that chance.  I'd love to see a pic of BOB though.

There's always other studs, does shine have any grandsons?

HAHA, yes you understand my predicament...  ;D   I price worth paying to create a better dog however? ....

I may be going down that way soon to hunt and I'll dang sure try and find him to take some shots... he is impressive...


I'm real picky on dogs  ;D  Function alone is not good enough for me, they got to be built right on top of it...  Not many out there have both...

No, Shine has no grandsons yet... Her son's Whaler and Sawfish are strong dogs, time will tell if they are breedworthy however...

Nothing wrong with being picky.  ;)

Tell that to my wife.  :D

When breeding for above average dogs. I think you can expect a few mental and physical crop outs.JMO

I agree... but in the quest for "better",  what are you willing to tolerate?

In the quest for better I will tolerate a 80% cull rate, if I can get 1-2 pups that are exactly what I am looking for I would try it one time. It also depends on how tight the breeding is. I have some of that that shows up in my line and I understand the problem. I would make the cross and keep the whole litter looking for the "one".

HAHAHA... I already had my mind made up... you are the only person I thought might actually agree with me...  ;D

Noah,
in the mid to late 1990's I felt it was time to bring in some new blood to my strain of hog dogs I had at the time. A friend had a brother and sister florida cur hog dogs. The female did not hunt much but was one heck of a stop dog. The brother was a good strike dog and could stop a hog. They were red and well built and silent hunters.
They looked like some of my dogs so bred the male to one of my red females. Long story short I culled 7 out of 8 pups due to extreme shyness. The one good (stable temperament) dog I eventually culled because he quit a race after a mile or so at 14 months of age. He turned on but that was unacceptable to me because I liked early starting dogs...also did not like the percentage of culls. Was not in a hurry to get pups at the time but I do agree with Silverton that I will not hesitate to get a few good dogs in a litter...just depends on what I need...

I have had outstanding dogs that were border line timid and they needed special treatment. I tolerated them but would rather have dogs with the right temperaments...I take the extra time to socialize pups because I want to make sure the pups are stable as grown dogs...I have learned over the years to not invest too much time in one of those squirrel dogs you are talking about...

Good insight Reuben... I expected nothing less...

Timid is one thing, "squirrel like" lol is another...  ;D   I'd say 3/4's of my dogs are "timid".... I can deal with that...

Is there any possibility the "squirrels" that "bob" produced could have been due to the bitch's side of the equation? I have seen people breed to a stud dog and get a whole litter of culls and then say it has to be the male dog, when in reality it is the female that is the problem. Some people refuse to admit that their dog just can't produce. They may hunt but just can't produce pups that are worth keeping. One example of this is a breeding I made about 6 years ago with my APBTs. I bred a female off of my yard to this ch male and a good friend of mine bred his female to the same male about 4 months prior to me making my breeding. He had 7 pups out of his breeding and I raised 5. With his pups being older than mine he got the chance to cull or keep his first. He ended up culling all but one of his and that had me worried about how my litter would turn out. When it came time to start culling my I figured I would have to cull most of mine as well. Out of the 5 of mine I only culled one of them. When we started really looking at past breedings with his female we noticed that there was a high percentage of culls in every one of her litters. It went unnoticed because the ones that she produced that weren't culls were very good dogs. If I wouldn't have already made the breeding with my female I probably would not have because I would have assumed it was the male that was not producing. I have since bred 2 other females to the same male and have had good results out of both of them as well. The same friend bred the littermate sister of the one that produced all of the culls to the same male and that particular breeding produced 2 ch and 1 gr ch out of a litter of four. The fourth one was never shown and has just been a pet since it was weaned.

I try to not just look at the parents, but also the grandparents.  How many of culls were there in the line.  With the price of dogfood, and my time invested, I want as high of percentage as possible.  I dont think it going to be 96% as stated in another post,  but I would like to think before the breading its going to be 70% or greater. 

When you breed your own line you know exactly the percentage of good hunting dogs behind a pup that you raise...

And I agree with you on looking past the parents. The parents contribute 50% to the pups and the grandparents contribute 25% and the great grandparents 12.5%. So it is very important make sure that at some point there should not be much comprimising when selecting a pup...We need to make sure the pups held back for hunting and breeding are the best from the litter...

Dont know if it was asked or not but since im in the middle of no where with nothing but my phone i skipped ahead.  Where the bitches "bob" was bread to the last two times related and how many "squirrel"  dogs were in the litter the bitches came from?  Could be "bob" aint responsible.  That bein said maybe he is but would the cross be worth it for 2 you cull and say 3 or more you dont?

Like silverton said, I don't mind a high cull ratio as long as I get that "one" I was after... As for "Bob", the gene is def coming from him.

Not saying this is definately the case for you Noah, but in breeding I think people sometimes are blinded by the dog in front of them.  Got to remember when you choose to breed to a particular dog, what your breeding to is everything that's behind that dog.  Male dog might be the best thing since sliced bread, but what were his littermates like...parents like...etc.  If it turns out kick-butt dog is somewhat of a freak...littermates and parents weren't much count, then as good as the dog is I wouldn't expect too much from the pairing.  Same with demeanor...if Bob's rough as a cob, but majority of dogs in his lineage are not, I'd take my chances.

His background is fine, dog just apparently throws too many squirrels for them... He throws gorgeous pups from what I've seen... He's obviously a strong breeder, just that one little kink to weed out ;D

it is better to breed out one fault than 4... ;D :)

Look, this is a pretty easy dilemma in reality. Just get a turkey baster full of water so that you can thin down the squirrelly.  ;D :laugh:

Brings up a thought I have been mulling over for some time...(plenty of time to mull with deer season in full swing ya know  rolleyes ;D )...

I think the reasons you are breeding have a lot to do with what dogs you choose to cross up...

... For me, there will always be a high cull rate... no matter the quality of the litter, some will always stand out from the rest... I breed to create a better dog(maybe 2) for ME to hunt... and that's it....   SO... high percentages are great for those who are raising a litter to sell and maybe keep one or two out of but that is not as much concern to me...

Obviously, one would like to see consistency/uniformity, showing strong genetic prepotency...

..however... some people seem to just keep breeding the same junk over, and over, and over, and OVER again... hoping that somehow some gene will mutate and pop up somehow in a sea of the same... 

... and then there are those that go through life with their eyes open... looking... STUDYING... every single animal that crosses their path...  When this type of person sees a "freak"... they see the possibility to IMPROVE what it is that they're after... even if it means that it might take a LOT of culling to pull that trait out... SOME TRAITS ARE WORTH ALL THE TROUBLE...  That is... if you're really trying to create something better...

Something else I'm seeing... is it appears to be easier to breed things "out"  than "in"...

Noah just breed some good running hound in them and all your squirrel problems will go away ;D

They say that all dogs came from the wolf...so we have a wiener dog, great dane, and a collie. They look very different from each other. That right their says a lot to me about genetics...

 Some say you can only breed as good as the sire and dam and I do agree with that... However, I believe that some think it is what they see in the sire and dam and that is partially true...but it is what we don't see that that we  need to watch out for...that is why some breeders can breed a line or a strain of dogs that improve with every generation and another breeder can take the same dogs and take that line of dogs in another direction.

It is just as important to select the pups correctly as it is to start with the best breeding stock available...if not more so...

A good example would be...

one breeder sees a 6 month old puppy as very trashy treeing coons and running a deer for an hour running alone and culls him...

Another breeder has the exact same pup and he gets very excited with this trashy pup...he is thinking that he has an early starting star pup (natural) that wants game...has a good nose and can locate game and stick with it etc. etc... He keeps the pup in hopes of using him as a breeder to improve the bloodline...

This example explains a few reasons of many as to why we have so much variation in our hunting dogs...

HAHA, Jess, I done decided yall can have that bottom... cuz it ain't for me...

Places I get asked to hunt keep requesting my short range, rough dogs... get it done or go home.  No tracking for hours, no sitting on your ass wondering what your dog is doing/ whose property they might be on...  

I'm sticking with short and rough, just the way it has to be for where I hunt....

Which is EXACTLY what makes this so rewarding to me... choosing the right genes out of a line can create a completely different animal quite quickly... 

Noah some of the goofest wildest dogs I have seen raised were the best to hunt behind . There was an,old cowboy around here that would back his trailer to his dog pens and they would jump in then when done working they would load in the trailer  I ask him,why they were that way he said hell I I'm that way let me do my job and don't get in my way or I will bite you.

HAHAHA... very good point  ;D

We have a little 'squirrel factor' in some of our dogs.  Three of the younger dogs give you that coyote slink when we are outside and bring  someone into the yard they do not recognize.....they trot off looking back over their shoulders soon to disappear.

If you come to the gate and they happen to be out but us inside, it is a different story....point of the story you will never get your hands on any of them and we like it that way.

I have to put most of them up to get my hands on them as they will not freely come to me (they will come to my husband) but all I have to do is open their pens or dog box and tell them to load up, there is no heistation. 

The one thing I will not tolerate though in the 'squirrel factor' is once I put my hands on them they are expected to let me do what ever I need to with out the hesitation of being bitten or snapped at.  I expect them to let me do what ever I want with little to no restraint.

The downside to this is strange people and even strange dogs can affect the way they hunt and at times it is extremely frustrating but we do not hunt with 'strangers' often so it doesn't affect us too often. 

There is a male down south named Bob (must be a name thing) who is extremely cantankerous, he is a hunting machine  but he may tolerate you one minute and is liable to bite you the next.  If you walk up to his pen he is liable to eat you up but you put him in the woods and he is fine....so long as you keep your hands off of him, if he wants your attention you will know it.


We are close to endeavoring on collecting our Goober dog, I haven't found a female yet that compliments him and for what it is probably going to cost / take I am not banking on a crap shoot lol.  He is the polar opposite of the 'squirrel  factor' but comes from the same line of dogs and everyone wishes we could clone him / turn back the clock....I wonder if they could flush your Shine dog - have you ever thought about going that route?

Tell me more about Goober  ;D

"Most people will never produce GREAT dogs because they are too afraid of producing crappy ones... if you expect perfection you will always be disappointed. When it comes to life... there is no failure, there is only learning... and when you’re learning you’re succeeding! " Enos      

The horse secretariat intrigues me. But I know there are dogs and horse that just never get the chance.Or possible belong to someone that doesn't care whether anybody knows he got one.I'm a little off subject again but now you got me to thinking what would you tolerate ? How much time would you spend?

Excellent quote...


I will always tolerate the means to an end... and will continue to do so, for as long as I have the time...  ;D

when evaluating a young dog we must also take into consideration the hunting time it has as well as the handlers style/experience...we must be able to look past what our eyes can see or we just might miss that pup with the natural hunting aility.

getting off subject but this is something I have experienced and I had to say it...   ;D :)

To hell with "off subject"... I use these threads to brainstorm... all ideas welcome  ;)

I agree that there are many variables when looking at a dog... all one can do in the end is trust his gut in my opinion...

Goober is 7 years old and still has more heart than any of the other dogs on our yard.  He is a fat old man now but in his younger days he was a solid athletic 65lbs of pure go and catch.     

He is a solid wind dog that will stick with it but you can also put him in a head / retention pond and he is probably going to range any where from 500 to 800 yards +/- and if he can't stop it he sticks with it until we can cut him off or it stops to bay.  He will also watch a spot light when we are hunting an open field.

In his younger days he would go much farther and didn't take any note of who was calling him off, he still doesn't if his mood strikes him right.

As a young dog he was all catch, the one that if he was out you were listening for and if he was baying you had better make it there quick because as soon as he seen an opening he was catching it...he can still get that way now but has finally learned to back up and bay as long as he doesn't have another dog with him. 

He is semi-retired and should have been out along time ago, we have put alot into to him to keep him with us and he is a 'house favorite' whether we have visitors here at the house or we take him hunting.

His vice is he will bark on trail when it is real thick but any more he doesn't have much of a voice so now when he is out we have to watch the Garmin to see when he is stopped.  We took him Saturday and he out lasted the young dogs....although we could never get anything stopped.  He also doesn't like to share  his dog box, but I think that is just because he knows he can get the best of my husband :D

He is the Uncle to our Chance dog, if that gives you an idea of how he was built when he was younger )he was the red ring neck dog I had posted a while back)....now he looks like a fat line backer  :D but he deserves it.

Sounds like a nice dog... What would you like to improve about him?

My Shine dog is my rock, but she could also be improved upon... as a young dog, she started out real rough... caught a lot of hogs because of it.   This last year, I have done my damnedest to get her killed... but it seems, as she's gotten older and wiser, she has learned to give the bad ones space.... and developed WAAAAAY more bottom than I would like...  These days, it is not uncommon for her to stay with a runner for 3+ hrs... too much for me... and I find myself not hunting her as much because of it...  Also appears that she throws this trait to her offspring... as they all will individually stay hooked on a hog for HOURS at a time already...  rolleyes... not what I was hoping for lol...

When I breed her again, it will be with a short range, ROUGH, busy, PROPERLY BUILT dog... preferably a Florida Cur...

I am open to suggestions...

Noah,

I see those traits that Shiner has as positive...I like a dog that sticks no matter what...only thing I would do is add more grit to stop the hog sooner... and the dog making it a shorter race because the dog did it's job and stopped the hog... and... the dog did not quit the race because it lacked bottom...

Defenitely not afraid to add more grit... but would like to lose some of the bottom... in my experience, too much grit + too much bottom = dead dog...

true... :-\ running vest an option??? or let nature cull the dogs that throw caution to the wind...

Run that type of dog by his self, no vest or cut collar.

breed your snapper to a great built bob, then take the best built roughest male u like and put over shine. u should get the grit and loose bottom in that first breed. still will have some good blood?

Ol' Snapps would produce some good dogs I'm sure, just too many things I don't like about her to make a breeding... Would if I had to though.

Conformation wise, I think he is too wide....he has a gait instead of a smooth stride, for being such a big dog he moves well but I have seen him out run because of it too.  He does however have a nice 'ice box' build to him in the sense that his top is straight, I am not a huge fan of one's rump being higher than their shoulders but that probably reverts back to the days of livestock judging  :D it is just a habit and he has a nice deep girth so even though as big as he is he doesn’t get winded easy like some.

Personality, I wouldn't change him.  He is one of the most unflappable dogs I have been around but he does have that tick for strangers and their dogs but I think that just comes from being hunted 'alone' for his entire lifetime but he is also sociable….which is something this younger generation we have now lacks.

You are right, too much grit and bottom is a bad combination….but a vest on one that has a lot of bottom is a bad combination as you run the chance of overheating / fatigue so it is almost a double edged sword. 

We bred Goober's sister who is strictly bay to a dog exactly like Goober (minus personality / add squirrel factor), the outcome was Chance who will beat the bushes at 250 to 500 yards and will bay like crazy by himself but put another dog with him and he becomes an ear chewer on anything over a hundred or so pounds....which to me shows he isn't fully committed and there is still some hesitation to it, which IMO will wind up getting him hurt...I would rather have one that is strictly catch so they can learn their 'style'  or strictly bay, I can tell you I am not a fan of the semi-committed crowd.  He is not sociable but will come to you if called albiet he cowers.

Very good description miss Ashley, he sounds a lot like Joker, Shiner's father.  He was also a big, rawboned dog that had a distinct gate...  do you see a patern in your dogs that more males come out straight catch than females?  I'd like to say I've seen one, but haven't  ;D

The first thing I would do is consider what made "Bob" what he is.. Is he linebred? Is he scatterbred? Is he an outcross? What kind of dogs did his sire and dam throw? When you breed 2 dogs the blood behind them is what matters more than the individual dog. I've seen lots of real nice dogs that never threw anything close to themselves.

He's linebred FL Cur cow/hog bred, known lineage... throws strong genetics... just some "squirrel" along with it...  ;D

Chain, trust me, you'd like him...

Then I would definitely try it if he's everything you're lookin for. When you're dealing with linebred dogs you're going to get a few coyote acting ones. Just cull em and keep goin..
Be careful what you wish for though, before you know it you can end up with some pretty much straight catch dogs. We made a breeding , both linebred dogs, to try and get some real rough dogs that would still back up and bay a bad hog. Out of 6 pups, 5 of them were straight catch at a year old and the other one is a house dog.. He is the only one still alive..

HAHA, yep, I know exactly what you are saying... it is a fine, razor edge line....

I can't say, we have a very high ration of males and the few females we have aren't catching by themselves but they will help / egg it on with the males we have.