EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

http://www.wtblock.com/wtblockjr/jaguar.htm

I know an old timer, 84 years old, who has seen black panthers in several places in the Big Thicket and Little Thicket regions of Southeast Texas throughout the years.  I have wondered if they were jaguarundis(as have prominent biologists of Louisianna), and I have read about the escaped canned hunt leopard theory that prevails.

This is the first I have read about there actually being different species of jaguars, and historically one native mainlty to  texas.  I had always known that jaguars used to range into the southern US.

Last year I saw, for a brief moment, what I figured was probably a cat, that was dark in coloration, and if there are no black melanistic cougars, and it was larger than a jaguarundi, then.............  I only saw it's ass end running away from me on a dirt road about five seconds, at night, I hit the gas, to get a better look, and it was gone in a split second once it turned. 


So have any of you seen black panthers in texas?

I imagine that back in the day, pre-1900 in East Texas, mostly any large solid colored cat was probably called a lion or black panther, especially if a spotted cat was called a bengal tiger. 

they are seeing them all over the country . i know 8 or 10 people that have seen them locally , three have game cam pictures of mountain lions . still the wildlife people say they don't exist .

I've wondered if it isnt a genetic mutation like the solid black whitetail deer? I have a friend that got a solid black colored coyote in east texas, is it the same mutaion or was the coyote cross bred with a dog to produce the black fur? so my theroy is: are the mountain lions starting to produce the black color gene, is it a mutation or is it realy a black jaguar? I knida think its genetics at work but would love to see a paper on the gene reserch!

I, being one of "those wildlife people", agree that they do not exist... HERE. I have heard SSSSOOOO many people who have seen them, but I'm one of those people that don't believe what I hear, I have to see it to believe it. Plus the stories I have heard have been late at night by not so reputable people, a little late at night after a beer or two if you know what I mean. Then when someone tell me "I have proof!!! It is on my game cam!!!" I ask em to see it and you can damn sure clear as day see a black cat off in the distance. And at first I am like wow!!! Then I ask them how tall is the grass they are next to? Then they don't sound so excited when they say knee high. There might be that one lost cat, like Black bears in Carrizo, but they do not call south or east TX home. As far as I know.

I consider myself a professional wildlife person, but I don't have a degree in biology or a government job that allows me to officially document a species verified range.  Historically, it is officially verified that jaguars ranged across the southern US.   Jaguars have been videoed and killed in southern New Mexico with increasing frequency. 

I didn't get a good enough look at what I saw last year to say what it was, and I was entirely sober.

Having a degree in biology or even a government job does not make you more knowledgeable than a person with more real time experience in the woods.  The fact of the matter is is that it makes you less knowledgeable, because you think you know what you do not know due to your piece of paper that means jack number 2.

I have schooled state employed biologist endlessly.  Latest was the one that did not know that there are two species of snapping turtle in east texas.  And they should have known especially because of the position that are employed in.

What any old timer, that was in the woods as a kid in the 1920s says is worth a hell of a lot more to me than some nut stain with a worthless piece of paper saying she is an official wildlife person.  Not saying that is you or anybody, but just saying.

Dont know if it was a black panther but had a buddys horse cut real bad on his chest a few years back and in the same pasture had found claw marks on a pine tree 8 ft up. the claw marks were wider than what you could spread your fingers.

There ain't no need to go getting all crazy with hating on wildlife biologists with "a worthless piece of paper." To me it means a lot. It doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else it just shows that I put the time and effort into getting it. Which now that I graduated makes me wonder why I put that much time into it, but that's another story. The reason I say that I don't think they exist down here in TEXAS is because I have never seen them, nor has any "Professional" that I know personally. I have heard of MANY people say that they MIGHT have seen one, just like your encounter with them. I just go off of the time I have spent on ranches all over south Texas, but I also go off of what well known cat specialists (people that have spent their ENTIRE life studying cats) say. Like I said if I saw one I would be one the "those" people that everyone else thought was nuts, but I have to see it with my own eyes first. And I do agree there are A LOT of people that come out of school with the "know it all attitude." No one knows it all about anything, there are new things being learned everyday!!!

as far as being crazy that is the way I was born, through no fault of my own. 

where jaguars are officially verified to exist, they are rarely seen.

the paper obviously isn't worthless.  it is worth a great deal, undoubtedly.  i just have a habit, perhaps one I should try harder to curb, about reacting to people that demonstrate the lack of knowledge through the false assumption of knowledge.

what is it that you are saying does not exist? 

obviously large black cat's exist or reputable people wouldn't have been reporting them into the 20th century, the question IS is what are they?

I don't believe Black Panthers find home in Texas. Now there might have been a few "sightings", just like the lost Black bears in Carrizo Springs. It was also recorded that Antelope were in South Texas, but with the brush changing the way is has free ranging Pronghorn are no longer down here. I believe that last one killed on the King was in the 50s or 70s I don't remember exactly. So the Jaguars that used to be here, which yes they did used to live around here, have been pushed out. Like Ocelots, they like extremely dense brush, but with clearing land like we are they are being pushed out also.

Ugh.... Guys stick with the facts. There has NEVER been any reputable black cat evidence, NONE, not a even a pic! Think about how many game cams are up. Eye wittness' also see Big Foot to but NO CREDIBLE evidence ever presented. Saying you see black cats around E. Tx is no different than saying you've seen big foot!

Another fact in the court of law is that eye witness testimonies are extremely unreliable!

But what about Uncle Ned. He ain't never told a lie in his life, and he swore he seen a big ol black panther walk right in front of him and blow him a kiss!!! Haha Just joking around

To your knowledge there are no pictures.  Can you think of why someone wouldn't share such undeniable evidence with the general public?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread328422/pg1

old timers always said that some panthers were born black . maybe so , maybe they were seeing jaguars .

iknow 3 that have seen a big black cat of some kind that do not lie . one is my preacher who saw it and shot at it after it killed a mare and ate the colt out of her . one is a good friend and 1 of the best people i know . one is my grandmother , if she says she saw a elephant then she saw an elephant .

 i saw one on the dicovery channel that was caught on video tape in pennsylvania . it was exactly the same as what all these " eyewitnesses " have described .   a dark grey / black cat that is knee high with a tail thats longer than the body that crooks at the end .


    i don't know if its a panther , mountain lion , jaguar , jagurundi or what but it DOES EXIST !!!!!

Now come on guys leave the squatch outta this. The other night those squatch hunters on tv both heard a knock on a tree !they both heard it at the same time !!!!

Im a co-owner in a taxidermy shop that I've had intrest in for 12 yrs now and you would think in 12 yrs as many hunters that are in the woods there would have been someone that would has killed one.

I did know a old timer that had over 40 big cats that he raised mainly Black Leopards,Mt.Lions,Snow Leopards that passed away here about 8 yrs ago and his crazy azz kids just turned all the cats out to the wild. And he was from E.TX.

So there probably some around but I still would think someone would have harvested one over the years.

Same goes for Bigfoot there is more folks looking for BF than ever was looking for Bin Ladin and no one has ever produced one.

read a thread about this on biggamehoundmens and the guys that hunt lions all over the U S said they had never treed a black one.not saying they dont exsist but u think all the lion hunters out ther they would have treed one or have pics.i think ther like bigfoot.lol

I have seen one in east texas with my own eyes,it was black.........it is in the dallas aquarium! Does that count??

I understand the skepticism due to the human nature of people often being dishonest, and the lack of publicly available evidence.

Consider the cases of the Okapi and mountain gorilla in Africa.  The locals where the large mammals lived had known of their existence and told tale of them.  Outsiders, including government officials of their own countries, dismissed the oral record as nonsensical mythology.  Today both the existences of the okapi and mountain gorillas are verified, and specimens are even living in zoos.

Jaguars are an already discovered creature, and have been known to reside in these regions, and they are becoming more visible in Arizona and New Mexico in recent years for whatever reasons.  So it is more probable that jaguars still exist in Texas than the okapi and mountain gorilla that were only wive's tales or wise tales to people who were not intimate with the land.

I for one do not doubt those who are intimate with the thick, diverse forest of Southeast Texas, who I and others know to be credible.  The creatures are illusive, and rarely seen, but they have been seen, and even photographed.

Perhaps it is best that these secretive creatures remain a secret than only the wise believe.

I don't have a high regard for the average human beings integrity and potential for honesty, but I know that there are people who are honest and no reason to make this sightings up.  There are many reputable and trustworthy people who have seen large black/dark colored cats.  There are also photographs, the ones that I have seen were not substantial due to scale, night time, and the image quality not being of high quality.

If a tornado wrecks it's enclosure and it runs free and is spotted in the wilds it does.

I don’t know if any of you are familiar with Chester Moore but he is an outdoor writer for the news papers here  and a few wildlife magazines but he is kind of an expert on the jaguar and mountain lion presents in the east Texas area I attended a seminar last year that he hosted on big cats in are area and his research and data show that there in no such thing as a black panther mountain lion but there is such thing as a black jaguar and they have been spotted and killed in the Texas area.  A male mountain lion has a home range of 200 miles same as the jaguar everyone has there own opinions on if they exist or not i have never seen a black 1 but i have seen several mountain lions in southeast texas

Would this by chance be in Wills Point area? There was an exotic ranch out there that let all their cats and exotics out...

I'm pretty sure bigfoots pet chupacabra killed all of the black panthers a long time ago....right before they were abducted by aliens with the loch Ness monster! But don't worry, I hear that Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny are working to bring them back!!!!

LMAO! That's great!!!  ;D

 I saw two at one time. Smaller than the 220lb melanistic monster in the zoo, but every bit of 100+ lbs. I dont care who believes me or not, but I've often wondered myself what they are. So just tossing that out there for those of you wondering if they are a freak melanistic mountain lion. Pretty odd to see two of them at the same time. Jet black.

I basicly got called a liar on here 2 years ago when i talked about shooting at one. I saw it twice in corrigan Tx., Got a real good look at it through my rifle scope. I had the worst buck fever ever once I figured out it was indeed a black cat. This was about 4:00 in the afternoon bright sunny day and grass had just been mowed. the first sighting was about 50 yards away broad side but walked into the woods to fast to get a shot off and then it popped out about 250 yards up the road about half an hour later walking away from me when i shot at him, it was a pretty thin target. I know I saw a black cat about the size of a cur dog with a tail about twice as long as a cur dog.

I seen one two years ago on openin weekend. I was sittin in some round bales next to the hay pasture watchin a herd of does and a few fawns playin around. The grass was a little over waist hi causewe hadn't done the 2nd cut yet. Well hear comes prime and I'm waitin on big boy to come out and all of a sudden I saw a black cat jump on of the smaller does. I ain't gonna lie I dam near s*&$ myself. We would usually walk back up to the house since its only a 15-20 minute walk but I called somebody to come get me. This was between rusk and crockett

    The sacred black panther. Show me a dead one or a pic of a wild one in Texas.   

x2

have yall seen timberrattlesnakes in the wild?  or alligator snapping turtles?  most people haven't, but they do exist.

or a better example would be an indigo snake?  I've never seen a wild indigo snake, but that would be up there among the top things I want to see.

how about a central texas whipsnake?  i've only seen one.

(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff402/mmlock/2011-11-18_15-25-11_207.jpg)

Well here ya go. My fiance took this picture on a ranch we were on down here. A Blue Indigo!!

I seen a big black cat in delta co. About 5 years ago and land owners has seen a yellow one this last nov. Talked to one of the guys from A&M last year they had pics of one one the colleges preserve and he said they are Spanish Jaguars

awesome snake

well a lot of people have seen them on here, and a lot are in the same area.

Black cats have been seen in my area too. North texas, just  south of wichita falls

My dogs caught one in June in Rosharon TX, it was only house cat sized though, im guessing a dwarfed melenistic cougar.

Okay, say someone had some pics of one.  Let's just say three so so to fairly decent pics on a good game camera, and one high quality high def picture on a professional grade digital camera showing the whole jaguar(this pretend cat is a panthera veraecrusis)  a supposedly exticnt species.  How much would this be worth to cryptid tv show or say national geographic, or whatever tv show or magazine?  I mean just what would yall suppose if anyone has any type of idea about somethig like this.

show us a pic t bob .

my preacher was told that if he had killed that cat he would be arrested ... the same wildlife guy had told him they don't exist here in west tn  :o

El Cucuy ate my old phone. Shame too, I had pics of a female yeti on there from my expedition to the Cleveland TX rodeo.  ;)

I dont think you read my post very well.  :D

Never seen one myself but a landowner of one of the properties I hunt said he seen a big black cat while on his tractor. He lives right out of Farmersville, Tx and said it definitly was not domestic!

I have seen a melanistic bobcat. There was one head in this ranch that butted up to my house, it was maybe 50 acres, real thick. Was driving down the road on the edge of the head and sure enough saw it cross the road. I think there has only been 11 of them ever captured and 9 of them were in my county.

 http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/07blk-bobcat/  (http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/07blk-bobcat/)

thats a horrible comparison! people catch both of those all the time....theres plenty of photos of them. no one in the history of the world has ever photographed a black panther....they never get hit by cars, caught in traps, or shot by hunters. If you do some research i would bet mountain lions dont even carry the genes to produce black specimens.....

The link that I put up in my previous post, the cat that was captured COULD possibly be the same cat that I had seen. Where it was caught was maybe 3 miles from my house, on tbe other side of the ranch that I was hunting. The timeframe is right also, I saw it in 06 and this one was caught in 07

T-bob I'm going to try to find this yetie, got some friends there in Cleveland. it will be a good excuse to go see them and run some dogs!  ;D

Its like calling your buddies on monday morning and telling them  we caught 25 hogs Sat night.
Without pics It all just a story ;)

I wonder if we saw the same yeti in Cleveland.... Having a gene puddle, instead of a gene pool, I suspect there may be more than one yeti in Cleveland.

This Yeti had on a pair of cruel girl jeans and I thought " how appropriate, it is very cruel to make us see your hairy butt crack spilling over the top of those." :-*

I'm in hunt county and I seen a big yella cat one day I was balin hay. Never seen a black one but they have been seen multiple times around here. One older man who has lived in the same place for a while has seen em more then once around his place and has had many goat go missing and not the kids the big ones with no sign of them. We also have a place that was Named black cat thicket a long time ago because of the black cat sightings there

Here is the supposed current range and former range.

I have seen numerous species outside of their "range".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cypron-Range_Panthera_onca.svg

very cool to hear about all the other sightings in this region.

yea, but it is a true story just as were the okapi and mountain gorilla, but this would be more along the lines of the ivory billed woodpecker.

for all you non beleivers , just wait til your grandma sees one  ! shes got better eyes than i do lol

i got a neighbor that saw one joining my place , another neighbor really gave her a hard time about it , telling her if she''d drink better whiskey she wouldn't have hallucinations like that  ;D ... the next week he saw the same thing .

Yall been hangin out with "Tickle" down at the still too long ;D

Used to be dinosaurs too....

Correction. Lots of people THINK they saw one but have no evidence! Again eye witness testimony is very unreliable - Fact. Lots of people think they have seen big foot as well, do you buy that? There is no difference!

Think of every game cam, lion houndsmen etc etc....but the evidence "0"

There are extremely rare cats in Tx, mule footed hogs etc but we have proof.

HAHAAAAAA

there are still dinosaurs: alligators, crocs, bowfin, gar, mokele-mbembe, but you cannot honestly, realistically say that the Panthera onca veraecrucis is in the same league as  Gigantopithecus negro.

It simply does not equate.  Some of the hard headed types and brainwashed types will need more substantial evidence, but for the people who are fortunate enough to have a degree in BigThicketology and/or Crackerology the handed down wisdom of our professors are credence enough.

lol, isnt a mokele-mbembe a mythical dinosaur looking thing?? im gonna have to google that one. I know there are alligators, crocs etc....people take pictures and kill them all the time. There are elephants too but we dont have them around here......or do we???? lmao.

Ok, ill give you that jaguars used to be in this area but the last verified jaguar in Texas was around the turn of the century.....it was probably eating a dodo bird. Every time someone sees one they are by themself, with no camera.... what I want to know is do we still have the spotted jaguars or do only the melanistic ones come to Texas....and how do they decide??

personally i believe that mokele mbembe is like leviathan in the Bible.

It could really be the Loch ness monster..... the drawings I found look like that. You know im just messin with you right Wolfpen??

personally i believe loch ness would be a different species, but all my experience, in this lifetime, is in this hemisphere.

you are probably right.... it looks like mokele mbembe is more of a land dwelling creature.

its Littlefoot from the Land Before Time...lmao!!! ;D

WTF did you say?

PEOPLE, CATS THAT ARE HUNTED WITH HOUNDS WHERE GAME CAMS ARE PRESENT ALL OVER THE TIME WOULD HAVE SHOWN THEMSELVES BY NOW...~!

I believe there are other animials not discovered, google what came to shore after the psunami... but not something that my curs would tree! There are black jaguars in south america, not in east Tx!! Quit believing a crappy eye witness report, or go put up a game cam and prove it!

Heard of pleanty of sightings in central florida.  I bout got laughed out of huntin camp one time bringing it up.  I myself have never seen one...but know two guys personally who claim to have, and dont see why they would lie about it.  I know it sounds very scepticle(sp).  
One sighting was on a major toll road where others reported the same thing.
The other was down around keenensville many, many years ago.  Guy said they used to turn the dogs out on what ever they thought they could run/catch when they were younger.  Said they saw a HUGE black cat one night heading to a water hole, right in front of the truck, tried to turn the dogs out and they couldnt drag them out of the box.  Later they ran into a GW and told him about it.  He said the GW acted as if it was no nig deal, said it was rare, but "them black cats follow the coast around from mexico"...
Again its all hear say, but hell a lot of stuff is...

I've also been told there was no cats or bears in a WMA here close to the house, by the employees and biologists that worked there but had seen the evidence for my self.  The next year there was state trappers running hounds in there and they told us they were trying to dart cats...????

Yesterday, I spoke with someone that is highly respected, and his boss/mentor is a legend in some schools or areas.

He has seen black panthers.  He also saw one that had been trapped and two game wardens came to identify it.  They concluded it was a jaguar.


Like I said early my neighbor has a pic of one of his game camera, but he won't say what it is.  Plus many other respectable people have seen it, along many other folks and eye witness accounts in the same general area.

This is not even close to the same category as bigfoot for all the goofy naysayers that are jealous they didn't get any pudding.

I live in southeastern Oklahoma (Broken Bow). One day I was eating lunch with a couple of our local game wardens and 2 federal wildlife guys. We were discussing mnt lions in our area of the state and one of the federal guys said that they were in the woods everyday and never had seen one and that they did not exist in our area. He even went on to say he was so sure of it that he would give them 100 bucks if they could even produce even the slightest evidence. Well this past year I got a pic of a juvenile mnt lion on one of my game cameras. I showed it to one of the local game wardens not realizing what a stir it would cause. Unfortunatly the federal guy had been transfered to Utah so I can not collect my money. haha  What I am getting at is just because someone has not seen them does not mean they dont exist. The federal guy felt he knew better than anybody claiming to have seen one and dismissed any claims as stupid.

that piece of paper only means a person spent a lot of money and bought that paper, not earned it in most cases. you in paticular might have legitametly earned your degree, but nowdays that bought degree means a person can be in charge of people who actually know what they are doing.
 
now as for the black panthers in texas. i would agree that they are in east texas. i was raised in east tx and 1 night was walking to my dads house and heard a cat scream. put the headlight on, grabbed the 10ga. with a few extra shells and a .45 as back up. walked into the woods in the area where i heard the scream and saw a set of big yellow eyes. eased a lil closer, confirmed it was not a deer or our dog, could see its shape but not exactly what it was. i took aim and squeezed the trigger. when the smole cleared, i heard a scream from in the trees and looked up in a tree and there it was. no blood where i shot and no blood in the tree after the cat ran off. every now and then i hope to get a shot at it in the daytime.

I've seen one too, hunted it myself.  It was in the area, had been seen and killed a horse two houses down my road.  One of my dogs took after it, and got killed for its troubles.  That is what put me in the hunt.  Spoke with game warded, and was told that you can hunt them any way, any time.  Never got him though...

Had a friend post this to his Facebook today. Won't trust a whole lot of people, but if this guy says it's legit, then I will trust him. Picture was taken with his Game Cam in Post Oak out by Fairfield TX

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/Tinytexascowgirl/Panther.jpg)
                                             
Pic cropped to show cat better 
                                             V

(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/Tinytexascowgirl/PantherClose.jpg)

That is one BIG house cat  ;)  ;D

That's my wife's cat that I chucked out the window on 45 @ Teague while she was sleeping. Can't believe he survived!! Oh well, please don't let her see that pic, @ $4 a gallon per diesel, I ain't going back up there for that couch scratching lil daddy didn't marry mommy.

That pic has been goin around for a few years now...

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