EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Not trying to start chit just curious.  Any of you boys from Alabama, Arkansas, N. Louisiana, Tenn. that hunt behind hounds ever tried a good Cur dog on hogs?  Reason I ask is because it seems like the attitude in that region for the most part is you need a hound to hunt hogs over there, because the hogs are not very prevalent.  But how do you explain the cur dogs that get the job done in those parts day in and day out.  I recently hunted with a guy from Ark. that has a cur dog out of Texas stock that gets it done in style.  Also, I know Chainrated on here uses Cur dogs and catches lots of hogs in tough country in Alabama thats not loaded with hogs.  Just curious if yall have ever seen a good Cur dog work?  It sure beats hunting behind hounds unless thats just what you are into.

Waylon
 

Well now. This ought to be an interesting thread.  O0

Waylon I've lived in Bama all my life,.....I hunt with buddies from Bama, TN and GA. I was a hound man from the start and still love to hunt with 'em. I now have 2 cur dogs, one is a cur/fiest cross the other half Plott half Catahoula. The cur/fiest is the best hog dog I've ever had.....and probably ever will have. Most of my TN buddies have hounds, mostly Plotts that are of course open on track. I hunt my silent curs with their hounds and have for over 3 years now....my dogs still don't open on track and theirs still do.....simple as that. My cur dogs go with their hounds and vice versa....they form a pretty good pack seems to me. I can hunt my dogs alone and kill hogs, done it before and will again. One reason that the guys from around here use hounds is that's what they've always used and always will. Hunting in the mountains is different I agree, but if your curs have a good nose and will run a hog for some time if need be, they'll do just fine here. You are right that the hogs here, that being north AL and East TN, aren't as numerous as in TX and some other states. I think that's why folks here have always used hounds as you stated,...they've been bred to hunt the mountains and find hogs that are few and far between. Now, having said that, I also think that most folks around here have never hunted with a cur that had a super cold nose and would trail a hog or bear from quite some time before they finally jumped it, and then run it for quite some time as well.

  I just don't think that those kind of cur dogs have been seen around here in the past. Out west, they seem to have used curs since they are a better multi-purpose dog than a hound. We don't do as much cow work in the SE as they do in TX is what I'm saying I reckon, so hounds have been used more here than cur dogs in the past, but that's changing I think.

  I know some guys would stroke if they we asked to hunt their silent dogs with open hounds, and I can understand that. But,.....as I mature... :D....I find myself being less and less concerned with whether a dog barks on track or not, I don't want a dog with endless bottom,....had that and done with it. I JUST WANT TO HUNT AND HAVE FUN......simple as that. So if my silent curs open on track next trip, so be it. I won't lose one minutes sleep over it. I hunt with good friends that just want to have fun as well. Hope that kinda helps answer your question bud.

I'm from central LA and I hunt mostly curs and they get the job done I have a plott gyp but she is silent. Most of the guys I hunt with are all cur dogs just the way it is round here!

well i am not from the hills but i can most than likely assure you that they feel the same as me , in the fact that there is nothing more soothing to the soul than sittin down and listening to a good long and beutifull race on a cool foggy morning . stuff like that just eases the mind and replenishes the body , making all the hard work and dissapointments in life melt away . a good cup of coffee , warm fire , and beutifull music coming from the bottoms . ain't nothing better . try it sometimes and you wont be worried bout such things

I have and it does not suit me.  I like to bay hogs not chase them. 2 each thier own though.

BUT...the question is not for people who hunt with hounds because they like them.  Its for people who hunt with hounds because they think they need them due to low hog populations. 

Waylon

Personally.  I say.  Show me a cur that has a nose like my hound and I'd take the cur.  We just don't have access to many of them in the hills.    If it has a good nose I don't care what it is.  Just happens that most of the dogs in this part of country with good noses are hounds.   

You texans keep breeding those curs with cold noses and maybe they will work their way north and east.

i hunt alot of hounds from plotts to red ticks . i have also hunt cur dogs i love to hear the race . i have put cur dogs out on tracks and them not take it then turn a young hound loose on it and him take it no problem . not saying that cur dogs want hunt  but i dont have a problem baying and catching hogs with my hounds and i dont have to sneek into the bay and worry about making some racket getin in there.. just sayin

                            ..Drew

 

So you hunt hounds because you are not very good at sneaking?

Waylon

no  what i was sayin is u here alot of peopple talkin about how they made the hog break because he heard them coming but i like hunting both breads  hounds and curs

I use plotts because they have the nose to pound the dust around here. I have tried all kinds of dogs, hounds, terriers and curs and have had the absolute best luck hunting behind these plotts. They were and are the most consistent of any dog I have tried. I have had some great dogs in the other breeds but the plotts have been my best fit.

And when he says 'dust'......he means it. One of the driest places I've ever been.

I'm a firm beleiver in my currs and that's whatI'm sticking with due to keeping the woods silent as well.  The hunters have started this in Texas due to lack of bottom and we usually have to hunt silent dogs in my parts or the hogs will be 5 miles byt the time you catch up to them.  Saying that if i did live in other parts of the world which i have (i guided cat hunts outside of Cody, Wy) i would hunt a plott.  Thats all we hunted on lions and i know for a fact my cold nose currs wouldn't even have started most of the tracks we ran in those mountains and extreme conditions.  I sure wouldn't invite THillbilly to my country ;) but i would sure love to go to his and hunt behind those hounds of his!  I love hearing that from time to time just not in the woods i hunt. 

I'm a curr dog man thru and thru but to your question, I'm a firm beleiver that your couldn't breed a curr to what a Plott has if that answers your question.  JMO

Well ive tried several curs up here, and it just don't work, period. Sure, you might catch one every once in a while if you know exactly where the pigs are. See, that there is the problem, up here they are few and far between, and there ain't no catching 10 hogs a day, you got to have a dog that will get out and HUNT a track, and have a cold enough nose to trail them up if you can even find sign to put them on.
  After walking countless miles day after day, and no hogs gets old fast.
And not to mention, all these "good" cold nosed get out and hunt cur dogs I keep hearing about, well.......they are top secret and not available to the public.  ;)

I'm just curious to what type of range (hunting out, not on track) some of you hound guys are getting out of your dogs?

as long as it takes

I just don't believe I would hog hunt if I lived somewhere where I needed a hound. South Florida has me spoiled I guess.

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I also live in Central, LA.  8 Years ago I started hog hunting.  My first Pack was all currs and one hound.  Today, my pack is all hound and one curr.  I can appreciate a good dog that hunts, no matter what color, size, shape or open mouth.  This past Sunday I was real lucky to find hog sign.  Cur dog (by herself) found bayed three hogs.  Caught the first one, rolled over caught the second one in 100 yards.  2 miles later, she ran the third one across the road.  I dumped my three plotts (all less than 2 years old).  7 miles later, my three plotts and my cur dog caught the third hog.  Oh by the way, my cur dog is 7 years old; she is the one cur dog left my original pack.  My pack works for me!  There are a lot of times when my curr dog just can't smell the track that my hounds can.  My cur dog gonna go 600-800 yards looking, then she comes back.  Once my plotts hit the ground, you have to go and get them, there aint no coming back!!!  So I have and do hunt with s good cur dog, but I like my hounds!  That is just me,

Mr. Tom, sound like u boys up there need to implant a couple 1,000 head of hogs to help populate the area.  ;D

Ill give my 2 cents. We have plenty of hogs to hunt here in arkansas. I haven't hunted much in tx so I don't really have a way to compare this huntin to yours. I have always preferred a hound cross over a cur. BUT...... If the dog will get out and hunt 700 to 900 yards its gonna find a hog where I turn cast em out eventually. They way you hunt your dogs also plays a big role in the question you are asking. Around here it is real hard to find a good line of curs. Don't get me wrong there are good ones and I have seen them, but they aren't what I call breeding material. They are kinda like that mutt you picked up off the road that turned into a hog dog. You don't know where it came from and it prolly wouldn't throw any kind of positive percentages into a breeding.

If I could find a good line of curs that would hunt out like I am talking and stand back and bay a 40 lb pig, built right around 40 lbs. I would go all in trying to get some of em. You just don't see it though so I will stick to what has put a bunch of pictures in my scrapbook and hunt these hound crosses.

ARhogdogs....thank you for directly answering my question

Waylon

No prob. See these threads all the time go way off cue, I try to stick to the topic at hand.

TN, when you say get out and hunt, what do you consider getting out and hunting? How far or long do you want a dog to hunt? To me there is a difference in how far a dog will go and how long a dog will stay gone looking for hog. I would rather have a dog that hunted 7-800 yard loops around me than one that will run for 2 miles in a straight line.
And I mean realistically, not any of them dogs that people have that will Never quit a track and will run till they starve to death,lol.. Realistically what do you expect out of a dog as far as how far out they will hunt or how long they will hunt if you cast them where there is NO sign or anything they can smell..Lots of people have different defintions of short , medium and long range dogs.
And of bottom.

I like the curs to have a good tracking nose and a good winding nose. hunt hard and fast but in 6-8 hundred loops like chainrated is saying. and I want the dog to stick until bayed...but the dog needs to know where to look and find a hog.

Im from Texas and have always ran cur dogs....a few months back i got a plot from Orval...shes a great dog works god with the curs...i dont think it matters cur,plot a good dog is a good dog...

I'm way down south la in the swamp and for the last 15 yrs ran curs recently I've hunted w a friend that have been line breeding plotts for 30 yrs needless to say I am now getting me a few pkotts this breed of dogs he raises is unreal hog hatters

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Wmwendler, okay, I am a plott man but have a good cur dog.  I can see your point if you have some jam up curs, a few people I know have them also.  I also belong to a couple of other sites and I found this post....what do you think this post made on another sirte?


"my experience. Just got back from a marsh hunt in louisiana. Long story short, river was way up, marsh bad soft and flooded, but i walked after 2 of my reg blackmouth curs 1 mile in to this crap along with a friends curs and 2 plotts. Literally we were just pushing pigs from island to island. I turned around and went bk to the boats,dogs in tow. All peoples dogs were in the boats,except 4 dogs. My 2 male bmcs, who never know what quit means, and they will run and catch a 250lb hog rt on the ear, and big marley my biggest bmc male never lets go until ive stuck the hog. But what amazed me, was XXXXXXXXs 2 young plotts. hell,  they couldnt have been more than a yr old and both were doin everything they could to cross that marsh, and get to them pigs!. Btw, the day b4 i got down there, XXXXXXX hunted opening day with the plotts and 1 cur, they got 15 hogs in only several hrs of hunting. Im gonna say the plott may be the most versatile dog on the planet, but i like my curs too".

I like to hear a bmc cur man say that plotts may be the most versatile dog in the planet.  And for those of you that thing open mouth dogs cant catch more than one hog in a day, I think you might be wrong.

Matt, 700-800 circles is ideal to me too. Actually the nose and bottom is whats needed most. Ive tried couple different brands of curs, and none of them would hunt out over 200 yrds max. And were hot nosed. You pretty much had to walk them over a hot track, which makes it tough up here in the mtn. Im not knocking curs, I'd still like to find some like I keep hearing about, but like i said before, they are heavily guarded and not available to the public, which I can kind of understand.
    and what I meant by not catching 10 hogs a day, I didnt mean that the hounds couldn't do it, but after running couple miles in these mtns wrestling and tying a hog leading dogs and dragging hog, you wont feel like catching anymore, atleast I don't.
there ain't no roads where I hunt, its all on foot.
   As far as bottom, I want them to stick til it bays or has a heart attack. If I turn loose at daylight, I want them to at least stay hooked til the sun goes down, and im talkin hog and bear both. Some of these guys have dogs that will stay all day and all night, and can go in the next day and track their dogs up and re-pack fresh dogs in. But those are few and far between.
   Hounds just work better up here, just like curs work better down there, the terrain plays a big part. I wouldnt even consider hunting a silent dog up here before the Garmin came out. Since they screwed the hog hunting up, up here I now have to hunt down south, so ive got two bird dog pups, im hoping will give me the range and nose im looking for in a silent dog.

Honestly.....here is what I think about that post.  If he is bragging that his dog Cur dog will run and catch a 250 lb boar and never let go and he actually wants his dogs to do that, then.......  #1: From the start, I would question his judgement and experience level if he honestly thinks that is a good thing.  It may sound cool, but anyone who has done this very long knows that dogs that don't quit can get out of pocket real quick and that is not practical for one to be caught on a hog that size for very long.  #2 Cur dogs are not catch dogs.  If he means that his cur dogs are initiating a catch which is how I took it then he is hunting with Curs that are in my opinion culls.  Sure some people have curs that do it and want them to.  But..... Cur dogs are not bred for catching they were and are bred to locate and gather up free range livestock.  To the point......In my opinion, he's got poor judgement of dogs and from what little I have to go by lacks experience with hog hunting and livestock in general.  I would not take anything he said seriously.


.......Finally this thread is generating the discussion I was looking for

I do know that hounds can make good hogs dogs.  I have hunted behind good ones as an adult and a child.  My dad hunted with them when I was a kid. But, I just do not prefer them and I honestly think Cur dogs are far better suited for hog hunting than hounds.  Here's why:  First and foremost because thats what they were created for ~150 years ago.  2nd.....Cur dogs are silent on track. Yes you can bay hogs with open dogs but it is not the ideal.  There is no need to give the hogs a heads up that dogs are coming before they even get there.  The hogs WILL start to leave when they hear that coming if they know anything about dogs.  In todays world with the ammount of hog hunters around its hard to find hogs that are not educated.  3rd......Hounds do not have the livestock working instinct that good Cur dogs have. Hogs, no matter how wild they get, will always be livestock and they will always behave like livestock.  A dog with stock working instinct is a definate advantage. 4th.....Curs have a more effecient hunting style.  They hunt for you not for themselves.  There is an understanding that they are there to work with you that I personally have never seen in a hound.  When I unload my cur dogs from the truck, they wait for me to choose a direction and then they hunt out roughly in that direction.  I much prefer this over a dog that leaves out hunting in which ever random direction from the get go.  Thier hunting track follows where I travel.  Now they make their loops, hunting out, which is all on them to choose which way but they loop back in and the general direction that we move in is based off of which way I am traveling.   I Know the areas.  I know where the hogs bed down.  I know where the hogs are hanging from scouting or info from the landowner. I can put them close enough to find sign they will take and put hogs at the end of it.  I can do that faster than I could by takeing a hound and randomly casting them on cold sign.  Thats what I mean by more effectient.  5th... there are those traits that are almost intagible, which I will touch on a little atleast for now.  Things like being aware of multiple hogs and baying them togther on purpose.  I say on purpose becuase It can happen occasionaly by accident with any dogs but a good cur dog with do it on purpose and more often.  That goes back to the livestock working instinct.  Rolling out on the other hogs after you shoot or catch one from the bay.  Being conscious of what thier doing when it comes to multiple hogs and trying to locate the bunch to keep them stopped and together rather than just blindly running the first track they come across.  Those are traits that you find in good cur dogs and why in my opinion they are better suited for hog hunting by a long shot than hounds.


Waylon

T.hillbilly makes some excellent points but then so do you...I will give my point of views and it is somewhere in the middle.

I agree with T.Hillbilly that it is hard to find a good cur dog...I don't have much experience with hounds but back in the 1980's I never really saw a stock breed that I would feed except for 1 bmc. The majority didn't have any range, very hot nose, bout had to stumble over a hog to find one and the ones that hunted sometimes wouldn't find a hog even with fresh sign, but then you turn loose a good dog right behind and in 5 or 10 minutes have one bayed...the dogs that I saw back then that I would feed had walker or plott or redbone in them with some type of cur like cat but usually bmc. They were middle of the road kind of hunting dogs. To this day I don't shop around for a stock bred dog but I am sure there are some real good ones out there but I will say they probably have a hound in the pedigree from way back to have captured some of the hunting traits of the hound. Having said all this I wouldn't keep a hound but would breed to a good one if I needed the hunt and nose.


An open dog can catch lots of hogs if he does not open on a track until he locates and then runs semi silent or opens some but is running to catch or stop the hog. But if the dog opens an an older track and spends 5 or 10 minute locating the exit track then the hog that is dog smart will burn up the woods leaving out. If you listen you might here the sound barrier breaking. ;D :)

Like I said earlier you can't give me one of those (3) stock dog breeds but that does not mean there are not any good ones out there. But I believe that the percentages are lower to get a good one to hunt as compared to a dog that is bred for hunting.

I remember a time when these guys turned out 2 plotts and they burned a deer or coyote and never saw the dogs again that night and a week later they got their dogs back...I sure don't want a dog like that..that is way too much hunt for me. especially with the tracts of hunting land getting smaller and smaller as they become devided.

Waylon, the way you descibe the cur dog I do like and you must have a good line of curs...

The only way I could get what you describe was by using the mtn cur.

I crossed some bmc once in about 1990 to get a little more size and tighter mouth on the mtn cur. but these mtn curs hunted with me and made the 800 yard loops around me and hunting pretty hard. I say about 4 hundred yards in any direction around me for a total of 800 yards give or take. These dogs when turned loose I had better be ready to go because they were going hunting...but, they would always hunt around the 4 wheeler and always checked in. I hunted 4-6 dogs but if I didn't see a dog in 5 or 10 minutes I stopped and listened and if out of hearing range I would check the tracker. When this happened they were all together running a track or bayed. I would wait a few minutes and check again. If in the same spot it is caught or bayed. if moving then I just moved in that direction at a slower pace...but I always said...if the sign is fresh I gaurantee the hog will be found...and a good cur dog will stick until he can't go anymore or stops the hog...if the cur dog smells the track he will go to the hog even if the hog is a good ways off but usually the hogs will be located within a mile...but might run for many miles after that. but a cur dog that don't hunt like this is a dog that won't stay too long in my yard...that explains why I am still looking for a few dogs right now...

not trying to put down any breed at all but just telling it like I see it...

x's 2, Tom you just summed up Ohio

I live in Arkansas. North Arkansas I think you need hounds or hound crosses. South Arkansas where there are more hogs curs work good. Now in my opinion the hogs are running like crazy in both places so the dogs better be rough no matter what you have if you want to catch hogs.

Try you a plott/cur cross. Working good for me

X2

I am a rookie hog dog man, Started march of last year. My first 2 dogs was a Mountain Cur and a half plott/half pit catch dog. Went hunting twice a week. Didnt have a good trainer hog but was determined to finish. My cur would strike but he couldnt stop a hog and would turn back after 400 yard race. If I were going to continue to use curs here in Ohio I would need 4 good bay dogs. I have no access to curs proven on hogs. After many conversations with Paul Teegardin and TNHillbilly we all agreed we need plotts and coming from Paul who has hunted here and lives in Texas that meant alot. Curs are a staple in Texas, In Ohio they are used for treeing on squirrell and no disrespect because I own a mtn cur that trees on a squirrell and love it. So a thread labeled "Plotts?" peaked my interest. I have read a lot of threads by die hard cur men and know you guys have killed a ton of hogs with curs and I am flat jealous. I do not have deep pockets to ship curs from texas to ohio and wont because I'll never buy a finished dog. I use plotts because I catch hogs with them. Some guys on here stereotype plotts a slow loudmouth idiot dogs that just scare away all the hogs. In my rookie year of hog hunting with dogs a plott is more than a hog dog. Its a big game dog that will run a hog till its caught. This is a catch phrase from a hog hunter in greece that uses plotts on wild boar; "Trail to Run – Run to Catch – Catch to Hold". Plotts open or silent will finish a track, as a breed they have been culled as good as any bloodline in the world. The plotts I use are Pocahontas that are known for SPEED, grit and will finish a track or your money back, Weems that were started by one of the best plott breeders ever, Everette Weems. My weems female stops a boar by crushing his testicles on the run with her teeth and she never has been in a bay pen, she just does it. My interest is really peaked because I want to see some good bay dogs, I want to see the ones they talk about on here, until then I'll use my loud mouth brindle dogs. Plotts? why not?

your right about the mtn cur...more and more are used for squirrel. can't test for stick/bottom when hunting squirrel...but a good mtn cur is what I like...

Reuben,
I'll say this my mountain cur pulled a coon out of a hollow log and killed it one morning, I liked that. Here in Ohio we cant use ATVs where we hunt we have to free cast a lot, I just dont think curs are real suited for that. But my cur dog got me in the woods and right now he's in florida living the dream.

Waylon,
I think you really did sum it up in your last post... you just want to trash plotts. That blows my mind that you really havent spent the time with a plott. What you need to do is this... get out of texas and go hunt the mountains, go hunt where you cant use a atv. Go hunt where you dont have hogs like in Texas. My last hunt was this, We walked in .68 miles till the plotts struck, we walked another 200 yards, we let 6 plotts off the lead and at 700 yards they opened up, at 780 they stopped the hog. It took 35 minutes to climb 2 huge hills and the dogs held the hog till we got there. We had to drag the hog 680 yards to the truck. You really need to hunt outside of Texas... really
(http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/jassenswisher1974/themagicofplotts.jpg)

. Lol I deer hunt in Ohio its ruff I could only imagine chasing dogs around

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Bigcutter,
Thats what hog hunting is here...a lot of walking, but we do it and its all we know and we love it. Where do you der hunt at? We are in southern ohio
swish

I really cant see whats all that tough about that.  What you just described sounds like a pretty easy going kind of hunt. 

I walk hunt all the time.  Its not uncommon to walk 4-5 miles a hunt.  Most of the time I walk atleast two miles even If I have an ATV....... they just dont go everywhere.  Most times we are in boggy muddy river bottom that will make you wish you had a dry hill to get on.  Sometimes they cross the Brazos river.  It might take a few hours to go get a boat to cross, then walk in a half mile or more to the bay.  But none of this is impressive its just normal.  Its not uncommon for the dogs to stay hooked for 4+ hours.  I expect them to stay hooked all day or untill they are exausted. Though it usually does not take that long to get to them, so they hardly ever get tested past that.  Those distances and condition you mentioned are not unique.  It happens with hog doggers all the time. Yes....Texas has a large hog population.  But you don't need a hound to find hogs where they are few and far between.  A good cur dog will do it.



Don't get my wrong.  I don't want to trash plotts.  I'm simply questioning the idea that you have to have a hound to find hogs in any location when there are good cur dogs that will do it just the same.

Waylon

Waylon,
when you made the statement about a plott "Mindlessly running a track" thats trashing. A cur will never have the nose of a plott hound no matter what you say, You need to go to the mountains of east tennesse, or southwest north carolina and bay a hog period. And if you have a cur with a nose like a plott you own a priceless cur, from what I have heard one reason to hunt a cur is for a hot nosed dog, plotts run a track they smell, curs run a hot track. I hog hunted a mountain cur with a good nose but he cant hang with a plott as far as the nose. Curs will turn back and if you have a cur that will run with a plott that is a priceless cur. I want one, you could retire with the money on your proven bloodline. And you could prove that hunting outside texas.
swish

if that mtn cur couldn't hang with the plotts then it was a cull...a good mtn cur don't need any help to track, stick, and bay a hog...

So you judge the whole mountain cur breed based on one dog? 

Don't argue with swish guys, (he's u real authority on this stuff, he's got 2 hogs now !)

I have hunted public land in texas with dogs which is walk in only and have hunted public land in california which is mostly walk in forest roads only and hey i will keep my closed mouth cur dogs and walk 5 miles catching hogs than chase a open hound and to say only your plot will go .68 dude give me a break most of my dogs now will hunt that deep and i do not dump six more dogs to them my bay dogs run and my catch dogs walk on a leash. That is walk hunting I have a friend that has hounds and they are fun but i like my silent curs.

Waylon,

I apologize for not getting back here on ETDH to reply to your quote where you made all those points.  I will at some point get the time to return an answer.  If you are really curious as to the "attitude" that you mentioned in your original post, pack up your stuff and head to the mountains or go to Ohio, AL, AR, TN, or anywhere where guys hunt hounds day-in and day-out.  I know what I do here in LA works for me and I am sure what you and everybody else does works for them.  I know that I packed up my stuff and went to Canada to see plotts hunt bears on islands last year.  That was cool, that was neat, that was expensive, but I had to do it once in my life.  So if you are curious, go see for yourself.  Don't let anything hold you back, certain not some posts on the internet.  Also, in your original post you said you are not trying to start chit...really? 

Smarlowe, I never saw where swish was bashing you, what wrong with s guy that may not catch as many hogs as everybody else? 

Swish, I agree with several of your comments and as a plott guy, I know your dogs and I'd be glad to hunt them.  Keep hunting the hog in Ohio and be proud.

I really don't want to start chit.  or get into a pissing match.

I want to have an honest and civil discussion/debate about why people think they need hounds to hunt hogs in areas that dont have big populations.  And for those that think that way, have they ever hunted with a good cur.  What do they consider good enough to get it done in thier area and why.  How many hogs which they start do they actually finish.  Whats the average race or do they ever bay hogs in their beds.  Things like that.

I've got some potential to hunt hogs in Arkansas and will most likely take the oportunity to do it when I get the chance to get away.   Its just not very easy to get away like that. But it wont be behind Hounds it will be behind curs that are proven to get it done up there.  And...... next year I'm gonna do my best to make a hunt behind hounds (oh yea a Curs too)on a mountainlion or bear in Oregon.  Yes I said hounds and I will enjoy hunting behind them.  I don't dislike hounds they are very well suited for game such as cougar, bear, racoons. ect.  I just dont think they are very well suited for livestock like hogs.  And expecially not when compared to a good cur dog.   

Heres the thing, before the Garmin came out hunting with a silent dog was pretty much useless. Not that a cur couldn't find or bay a hog, but for the simple fact that if they got over a ridge and Bayed up out of hearing it would take way to long to find them if you don't know the exact direction they left in. They could end up Bayed for hours before you might find them.
   With open mouthed dogs, you know when they strike a track and which General direction they are headed as to keep up with them.
   There is a reason that people have hunted hounds here in the mtn for the last couple hundred years and not curs, hounds work better.
   As far as being bred specifically for hog, the plotts were, and still are bred for bear and hog. Curs were pretty much unheard of up here until the www. And still are very rare.
   I have Bayed plenty of hogs in their bed, most races are usually 500 yds or less, but I will add these hogs weren't dogged much. But at the same time went to al recently and turned loose from the rd and Bayed a big sow in her bed were they had been dogging pretty heavy.
   If we had good rd up here and lots of hogs im sure there would be a few more Curs around. But we don't so I just cant see it.
   There is a reason there are more hounds hunted in the mtn and more Curs in flat country, the simple fact is, its what works better.
   Can you catch hogs with curs up here? Sure,  can you catch hogs down there with hounds? Sure.  Hunt what works, hunt what you like, I have hunted both type of dogs in all kinds of terrain, from the coast of Nc to tx, up to Ohio, ky, and every state in between. A GOOD DOG, IS A GOOD DOG NO MATTER WHERE YOU DROP IT! Whether its a cur or hound or cross.
Hope that helps

You are probably the only one who thinks your not trying to get in a pissing contest. Your the only one who keeps saying you can't catch hogs in the mountains without  hounds. Its their preference what they hunt. They have already told you their OPINION on why they hunt hounds so let it go. If I was going to take someones opinion on the subject it would be guys who live and hunt up there not your opinion you gathered from who knows where.

ETHH...well said.  I may have to borrow your first line.  That was a good one and most likely the truth.

I got my opinion from the internet where else could It have possibly came from? :-\

All I can say is if you don't like it don't read it.  I'm still interested in reading other people opinion.

Waylon

That's fine you can read all the opinions you want to but when someones gives theirs don't question it again. Everytime someone has giving their opinion you come back with you don't need hounds just a good cur dog. That's your opinion and everyone on here has read it multiple times.

I have to agree with Waylon on this one! Didnt sound all that tough.  I hunt in texas without an ATV and its not uncommon for us to walk 10-15 miles on a good day.

Oh and I forgot to mention I hunt all plott crosses and one full Plott. They are really making me want to get a horse! LOL

 ;D ;D :) but I bet they find hogs...

Question- where are all these good cur dogs that will range 500-800 yds and run a track 3-6 hrs old, cold trail a hog 3/4 mi jump and run another mi or two and stay bayed however many hrs it takes you to walk to them? If you can consistently produce these kind of cur dog's  I will buy a couple and consider converting, oh wait those kind are not for sale, and how many come like that out of a litter of strait cur dogs?

And I disagree that a cur dog can do it the same as a hound. Not saying it cant be done with a cur, because I have done it. But not the same as a hound. BIG difference.
For the record IMO Ohio is not that rough. If you want some rough hunting come to north or south east Tn or Western Nc  And the only thing that make tn any tougher than anywhere else is just its straight up and down and not many roads.
   Ive hunted all over, and every place ive hunted is rough in its own way. They've all got briars and thick stuff, thats where the hogs go no matter where your at.

Oh yeah, and if those cur dog's are such the total package, why are so MANY people adding hound to them? To add range, bottom, nose. ;D
  Don't get me wrong, im not knocking cur dogs, ive seen a few that I wouldnt mind feeding, but to say they would work as good as a hound up here I have to disagree.
   

i put it like this i killed and caught a BUNCH of hogs with my curs . i personally like the curs that I have . but when i  was doing hog control on the ranch or the farmland i couldn't be there all the time and i got me some dogs that i could take to the field several hours after i was called . or when we hit the ranch and i seen a several hour old wallow with BIG hog tracks . i got me some more dogs and guess what kind they were ? you becha i got me some good ol hound dogs . i love cutting one single track coming across a road no tellin just when it crossed and putting dogs out and going after that one paticular hog . and now seems like all i see is people lookin for some hound blood . hogs are no longer free ranged domesticated livestock they is WILD animals and they are outta control . and should be hunted as such . so ya''ll just hunt your cur dogs and i'll hunt my cur dogs and hounds and hound crosses and we'll all have a good time and kill some pigs . we can all catch hogs with whatever kinda dog will chase a hog and that should be all there is to it to each his own . been some stupid stuff said in this thread . see ya gotta go feed my hounds  ;D

I don't understand all the talk of plotts being trail barkers I have one that is just over a year and a half old and she is silent and just now figuring out how to trail a hog off and she will out smell my cur dogs any day of the week and I don't consider my cur dogs junk either they will stay with a hog for several hours.My uncle used to run running walkers and I have seen them trail a hog for hours before they ever looked at him the first time and then break bay and run for hours and they were all silent so I honestly think if a person has never hunted behind a good set of hound they don't know what there missing.

That has been thrown around on this thread a few times so here goes.  A person could just as easily turn that around and say they were breeding Curs into the hounds.  And if you are implying or asuming they are doing it because the hound has superior traits to offer then why make the cross in the first place why not go straight hound?   But I get what your saying and really the person who makes that kind of cross is the only one that knows why he is doing it.....Well hopefully he knows why he is doing it. lol

In my honest opinion it happens for a couple reasons.  Here they they are in the order I think is the most common reason from least to most common.  #1-they might actually prefer a few hound traits in thier dogs for one reason or another.  #2-they don't know any better.   Or #3 They have some cur dogs that they wish had more hunt or bottom, which is not all that uncommon with the way dogs are bred and peddled now days, and they mistakenly think putting hound in them is the best way to do it.  Either they have not been hog dogging very long and have never seen a Cur dog with lots of bottom that will hunt deep.  Or they just flat don't have acess to that kind of cur dog and have not or will not put in the time it takes to earn a chance at owning that kind of Cur dog.  Most people with those kind of Curs hold them tight and its like a good fishing hole you just don't give that away to very many people and then only those who have earned your trust and show they do right with it.  Now I could also explain why I don't think you can just breed a hound to a cur and get a 50/50 mix of traits, but I have a feeling you understand and it goes back to the fact that hounds and curs have two totally different hunting styles like you mentioned previously.  Just my opinion.

Waylon

Sounds like a pretty easy hog hunt ....  It's definitley not uncommon to walk a lot farther and longer than that and for dogs to run a lot farther than that, no matter where you are hunting..

TN, ranging 500-800 yards and running a track 3 hours old really isn't something I would consider unusual in the right line of cur dogs. Actually, it's what I would expect.
I know that there are way more that won't do that than will as far as dogs go in general but I don't think that it's breed specific , I think that goes for all dogs. I don't think those kind of dogs are reproduced on a real consistant basis with any breed , hound or cur.  As far as percentages go with reproducing that kind of dog I would be very happy with 50%..  I Have hunted with a lot of plotts and a lot of cur dogs and In my experience your chances of getting a top hogdog isn't any better with hounds. I don't mean a dog that will run with a pack or be at a bay, I mean a dog that will do it by himself. I've watched a LOT of plotts run with a pack but then turn him loose by himself and he wont go 300 yards. But I've also watched a LOT of cur dogs do the same thing. I'm not downing hounds at all but judging from the ones I've hunted with, your chances of getting a hogdog that will range 600-800 yards and take 3-6 hour old tracks  by themself are in no way better.

I have glanced through this thread and basically in all breeds you can have the same variations of speed, range, grit, desire and so on, but what it comes down to is consistency amongst the breeds and even more so the strains in the breeds and the preference of the owners. I have had some dogs that I culled that may have worked ok to extremelly well for others and have had some that may have been culls for others. My experience with plotts is the range is not limited meaning that these dogs will hunt as close to as far as needed, they dont back down, have been able to smell cat tracks that other dogs were oblivious to, and problem solving smart meaning that they learn quick and its hard to fool them more than once.

10 t0 15 miles walking on a hunt?thats alot not saying u dont do it but thats along ways.walking 10 miles down a road is alongways,thats not hunting,listeing for dogs,leading dogs,catching hogs,dragging hogs,checking the garmin to see how far u walked.lol

the distances you hit hunting lions and even bear can far exceed that of most hog hunts. If you are looking for a plott with nose, smarts and endurance and desire try the cat producing strains

I wish I had places to hunt where I could walk 10 or 15 miles in one direction! I was just talking about a good all day hunt where the dogs are working hard and we are catching hogs. I usually just look at how many miles the bulldog did and that is usually pretty close to what we walked/ran for the day. And I can sure tell you it feels like I walked that much after we are done. LOL

Well said...

In my opinion now a days everyone where I hunt wants a cold nose cur that will hunt like a hound but keep it's mouth shut like a cur. Not saying all curs are silent but here is another question how many people have DEAD silent, full blood curs that hunt over 600yards in no sign and will run 3 or 4hrs??? No yipping when they jump or when it breaks DEAD silent until bayed????? Just out of curiosity. It seems Rangey dead silent curs are almost impossible to find. I'm not much of a houndsman myself I hate trail barking but I doubt you would catch many hogs in the mountains of Tn, Ohio or N Carolina with a pack of curs.

I use to raise mtn curs of the type T.Hillbilly is talking about. but once the hog was jumped they opened some. If the track was fresh enough they barked 2 or 3 times and rolled out on the track. and toward the end the majority of the litter of pups were good hog dogs. so I know it can be done...line breeding with a little inbreeding and only the best can be bred. no compromising unless no other option because it is better to breed a somewhat good dog of the same line than a very good dog from an unknown line...it becomes more important once the line has been established...

                                                             plotts is cur dogs till of recent years                                                                           
                               (http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj507/halfbreed3/McDuffie_Letter.jpg)

 There is a man in oklahoma that has a yard full of the best bred cur dogs I know of, some will know exactly who Im talking about and some wont. He uses his curs strictly for cows and hog hunts with some of the best looking plotts Ive ever laid eyes on and have heard from Bigo and Skoal that they are the best plotts they have ever seen in the woods. T Ive always wondered why he hunts hogs with plotts when he has a yard full of good cur dogs. The terrain you hunt will decide on the breed of dog you hunt with. Saying one breed is better than the other for any purpose is all just one mans opinion, what works here in texas might not work in tennessee and vise versa.

BigBen,

I am just speculating here...but if the cur dogs are good cow dogs...they might make some good bay dogs but not necessarily good hunting dogs...

A lot of the cow dogs are bred to stay close to the cowboy working the cattle and this does not require a dog that ranges out nor a dog that has a cold nose. But even if the dog has a cold nose he does not range out so a cold nose won't do any good...

there are good hunting curs out there for sure but one must get one from a good line of hunting dogs if we want to have the best chance of having a hunting dog at 18 months of age...

A plott is bred to hunt and the right breeder will only breed for the right hunting traits in his hunting dogs..

 I and a few other ethd members have cur dogs off this mans yard and they are proving to be good if not great hog dogs. They are showing to have the nose, bottom, drive, range, intensity, and most importantly the "want to" to become great dogs. Ill message him and ask him myself why he hunts the plotts for hogs. What my point is what works for some will not work for others. Its all personal preference when it comes to hunting dogs and one shouldnt try to push their opinion down someones throat.

X 2 ^^^^^^^^

halfbreed you shed some light on my PLOTT CUR jersey for me.  >:D my little plott CUR is as silent as any cur dog around, and her off spring are 9 months old and show to be just as silent. they are half BMC/PLOTT CUR. maybe thats why i like em so much.

BLAKE there must be something to these cur plott/cur cross dogs, because the ones around these parts produce pork!!!

Well if it comes across as if I am trying to push my opinion down someones thoat then I apologize.  Its not my intentions.  I don't expect or care to change anyones opinion. I'm just interested in the discussion and debate.   I don't mean any hard feelings and when its all said and done its just differences of opinion.  We are all hogdoggers and need to stay united when it comes to what matters.

Big Ben....Thats very interesting what you mentioned about the man who works cattle with Curs and hunts hogs with Plotts.  I to would be interested in knowing why.

Reuben.....beleive it or not good cowdogs need to have hunt to some degree or another.  It depends on the terrain how much is needed.  You can get by without it, but you wont have very good sucess at getting ALL the cattle out of the pasture if it has very much brush in it.  The guys I know that make a living doing it would not consider one a good well rounded cow dog if it didn't have hunt.  They do focus on breeding for handle and its handle that makes the dog stay in close..... not lack of hunt. But they have to have hunt or you wont be able to send them hunting for cattle that are hiding in the brush.  Lots of people including my self have taken Cur dogs from good cowdog stock and make solid hogs dogs, hunt and all.  

Waylon

wendler well said we have cur dogs that we use for hog hunting and cow working and if our cur dogs wouldnt range out and find cows then we would leave alot behind so i very much agree with your post.I have hunted with an old timer from here that was a govt trapper and he had both hounds and curs and i will say like i said in my earlier post that his hounds also were silent and they would take a much colder track than the cur dogs did and they were running walkers and plotts both and they would put a hog at the end of it

Waylon, I will let ya know his exact answer when he messages me back and I think you might know who Im talking about. Hope my comment about pushing opinions down others throats didnt affend you as it was not directed towards you at all, its just I see folks on here all the time that will argue til they are blue in the face when in reality all it is is an opinion and they think their opinion is the only one that is correct, the ole sayin opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and most of them stink serves very true on the ole www.

[sTN, ranging 500-800 yards and running a track 3 hours old really isn't something I would consider unusual in the right line of cur dogs. Actually, it's what I would expect.
I know that there are way more that won't do that than will as far as dogs go in general but I don't think that it's breed specific , I think that goes for all dogs. I don't think those kind of dogs are reproduced on a real consistant basis with any breed , hound or cur.  As far as percentages go with reproducing that kind of dog I would be very happy with 50%..  I Have hunted with a lot of plotts and a lot of cur dogs and In my experience your chances of getting a top hogdog isn't any better with hounds. I don't mean a dog that will run with a pack or be at a bay, I mean a dog that will do it by himself. I've watched a LOT of plotts run with a pack but then turn him loose by himself and he wont go 300 yards. But I've also watched a LOT of cur dogs do the same thing. I'm not downing hounds at all but judging from the ones I've hunted with, your chances of getting a hogdog that will range 600-800 yards and take 3-6 hour old tracks  by themself are in no way better. ub][/sub]
 X2 chainrated we also have a few 800yd curs in northeast Texas  same with plott and hound crosses more that wont than will. Three hour track is nothing for these cats!

 Waylon, here is the answer I got from the well respected yellow dog man I was talking about, if you dont know who Im talking about just pm me and Ill let ya know.

Well number one, I just never could bring myself to break a set of Curs off cattle since that is their primary job here, next most places here I absolutely cannot hog hunt a dog that will bay cattle, and finally I do really like to know who struck the track, who ran the front end, who made the pick if there is a break in the race, and how did they get from point a to point b. It has absolutely nothing to do with the terrain or that I think a good Plott works better than a good Cur.
I do think (that on the average) it is easier to get a better nose and more bottom with a Plott than a Cur and it is easier to get a better bay dog with a Cur, by that I mean a Cur dog is more apt to have a better inherent instinct to know what it takes to keep a hog bayed that really doesn't want to. Handling hogs or cattle "is" and always will be all about pressure and position when, how much, sometimes more and then less pressure 10 seconds apart etc.
Lets use the little gyp that Derek bought for an example, she is a nice young dog but no superdog at this point in time, her first trip to the woods after having seen a hog in a pen twice she made the whole trip and ran up with my other 2 dogs on a boar hog 7 hours, her daddy and her aunt made a 5 hour race with 2 different bays in the deal their first trip to the woods at 8 months old, but I had turned them 2 hogs loose prior to that, their grandpa made an 8 hour race on the baddest boar I have ever found in the woods at 8 months his 3rd time to the woods and was cut up the first time they bayed him at about 45 minutes, after having said all that I firmly beileve you will catch more numbers of hogs with good Cur dogs especially where there are more hogs, and I know full well there are Cur dogs with the same sort of nose and stick as I just mentioned with the Plotts but it is harder to come by.
I have dedicated 2 males that are full brothers but younger, to your Owen dog to hogs, I am going to solid break them off cattle and just hog hunt them, the reason I chose them to do this to is that I am still breeding primarily for cow dogs but I have 7 of them here that are full brother and sisters so I can see all the cow work I need to from the other 5.
Well that is my opinion and reasoning, I don't mind you asking at all nor do I think it was a dumb question. Tell ever body Hi.

Wmwender, im all for discussion and friendly debate, thats how we learn about other methods and breeds and such. I hope ya'll didn't take it, that i was downing cur dogs because that was not my intentions at all. Heck, im feeding some right now.
I have only been around and owned a hand full of them and all I have to form an opinion from is what ive seen. Tho I have been hunting hounds in these mtns for 20 yrs. I have also hunted the swamps, marsh and pretty much everything in between.
And until you actually hunt up here several times you cant understand exactly where im coming from, and I understand that. Thats what I was tryin to explain.
As far as hog hunting goes, I prefer to run silent dogs, just havnt found anything close to suit me in a cur dog. Not saying their not out there or that they are all the same im still looking for one that suits me. That will get out and hunt and has a nose.
  I know ya'll disagree, but IMO hounds do throw a higher percentage of dogs that will hunt, trail and bay even at 8-10 moths old. Maybe not be a GREAT or super dog but has the natural born instinct.
I like to catch hogs no matter what type or breed, I like them all if they produce pork, or whatever im hunting at the time. But my personal preference are plotts, its what ive consistently caught the most game with wether it was hog or bear and I can run them on both.

If I went out and picked 100 cur pups at random and 100 plott pups at random... I wonder which breed would produce the highest percentage of hog dogs???

that depends just as much on the trainer and the methods the trainer uses

I might be mistakin trainer for breeder, but IMO its more breeding than training.
I don't want a dog i have to train, the last 4 plotts ive started at 6-8 months of age, I just took them to the woods, no pen, no drags, no "training" they strike and run tracks ontheir own naturally. They do require practice and fine tuning and to some degree a little training you could say, but they will go hunting straight off the chain.
  Mine get on the job training ;D.
          This is good breeding, that I cant take any credit for.
as far as picking 100 plotts or curs, its all in the breeding, their are strains of plotts I wouldnt feed, so really hard to say. If both where bred right over a long period of time I would have to honestly say IMO it would be 50/50.

x2...a good handler brings the best out in a dog but I like a natural that just needs to be exposed to the game...

LOL! Oh, it's happened two weekends in a row now where we have put in 10 miles or more... We're getting some horses!  ;D This is why I like our "boar hounds"!!! From what I've seen, you can't go wrong crossing a good plott with a good cur, best of both worlds. Good post!

Big ben.....I somehow missed your post.  Thanks....I enjoyed reading his explanation.  Not sure if I know who it is or not.  PM sent.

Waylon