EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I know that people have shot thieves in the act and not been convicted, but the guy named Horn in south Houston, or somewhere, had to go to trial I believe, but the thieves he shot were not even on his property.  Just recently somwhere down 59 a fella shot at two robbers who were carrying off his welding machine.  Last I heard it was that he was not charged or indicted, or set to go before a grand jury or anything.

Hypothetical situation:  you have your truck parked out of sight, from your house and dog pens.  you catch someone, on your property, taking the dog(say they put a leash on him and are walking him away from the pen) you blow his head off with deer rifle.  Would it be legal(in Texas) to knock his block with said deer rifle?

I hear different takes on this.  You never know what you will do on any give day until you are in that situation on that day.  But I have a feeling I would that if a gun was near I would shoot.  I may tell him to get face down on the ground and not to move while I called the peace officers, but if it is legal it may just be better to shoot them, dead, because if you say stop, and he runs you loose a clean shot, and would be more likely to hit your dog if he was running with the dog.

if he had my dog id shoot first and then ask questions but thats just me

First off I'm in Oklahoma so your state me be a little different but as a former police officer who has worked on the state and federal level the general rule when it comes to deadly force is that you are in fear for your life from imminante danger and you can justify that you had to use deadly force as the only option to stop the threat.

BUT.... here is case we dealt with here in my county where an old man shot thieves who were stealing from his building, he head shot the driver or lets call him bad guy #1 and the DA charged the other bad guy ( bad guy #2 ) with murder for the dead bad guy #1's life because bad guy #2's actions resulted in bad guy#1's death. The main factor was the elderly mans age, What I am saying is they felt due to his old age he was honestly in fear for his life when facing 2 thives in an area know for meth. addicts . Had he been a healthy man of lets say 25 they may have looked at it differently

http://barnsdalltimes.com/http:/barnsdalltimes.com/news/skiatook-death-second-man-charged

Hope all that rambling helped some how

In texas they can be an unwanted stranger on ur property they don't have to enter the home to become a problem...and you can protect yourself as well as ur family... But it turns into a crime scene so everything would be investigated as long as you feel that was all you could do I'd look down the sights...

In Texas, it makes a difference whether it is day or night. I recommend reading the laws. If you shoot a theif in the day time as he's trying to leave....you are going to jail. You may ultimately beat the charge but its going to be a whipping. I'm not sure any property is worth a persons life...even a sorry one

Very well said.

getting in a fist fight is a lose, lose situation. if you win you feel bad that you had to hurt someone, and maybe even get hurt in the deal... and if you lose you got your butt whipped...but sometimes it is hard to get out of one. Then there is the possibility of have to go thru the court system and this will cost money to prove your innocence...

I hate a thief because he is taking something that someone worked hard for... to be a thief you also have to be a liar...

But I wouldn't want to shoot a human unless I was certain that it is the right thing to do...and that is if I feel like my family or myself are in danger of getting hurt or killed.

I agree about property not being worth a life, but you never know their intent. I have no desire to take a mans life, but if you are in or around my house @ zero dark thirty then I am sure you are not there for coffee.  

Take my dogs,my truck boat or whatever. I am not going to kill some one for taking some thing. You come past my door into the house, that is a different story. No property I own is worth taking anothers life over.

I agree, come in my house and you will likely be shot DRT. I would do what it takes to protect my family.

Im from lubbock and when I was a kid we had an insedint were a man tryed to get my mom to open the door because he was being chased..she offered to call 911 for him but wouldnt open the door. Well he runs off she calls and the cops talk with her and somehow came up that if my mom had to use her 9mm to make sure u kill em. Cause a dead man has no story! If someones in my yard at night I got something they can leave with!!!

  I don't have alot but what little I do have I had to work hard for and I will be damned if I will watch a low life sob carry it off.  I also don't like looking over my shoulder so if I have to pull a gun whoever is on the receiving end of ain't coming back later to get revenge for a shot in the leg !!  If you can't afford what you want get a job!

In technical terms: Feloneous Murder.  Oh and most here know my stance on this topic.. Let the "i know what i would do's" begin..  rolleyes

yessir  ;D

i will tell you this, as a police officer, it doesnt matter what they are taking. if they are outside and far enough away that you have to use a deer rifle to shoot them. get ready to go to prison. i hate a thief, probably more than anyone else. they cause me alot of paper work. lol. but, a thief is still a human being, and they are still protected by laws and the constituion just like everyone else.

i agree that if someone was attempting to make entry into your residence, do what needs to be done. but, if they are outside the residence and have not put you or your family into any immidiate danger, get a good description. you can approach them with a firearm and hold them at gunpoint until the police gets their. if they run, let em run. if they fight or pull a gun, handle your buisness.

this is really a sticky topic for several reasons. 1) Texas laws are left open for interpretation in several places dealing with this
                                                               2) you never know what type of grand jury you are going to get.
                                                               3) and if indicted, you never know what type of jury your going to get

i would hate to know i went to prison for the rest of my life over a dog.

a question i have is how much trouble can u get in if u shoot sumone with the intent not to kill??

cause i have a couple of shells for my 12ga just for the use of unwanted animals and people (loaded with rock salt)

is it wrong to teach sumone a leason by given the a case of the red a$!
 

it doesnt matter if its rock salt or 00buck, impossible to prove that is witout the intent to kill. rock salt will kill someone from ten yards. heck, the wadding will kill someone if they are close enough. lol

I guess to be more specific you gotta evaluate the situation. trigger happy aint always best answer but when u live aways from town help takes awhile so in my situation theres only me to protect my family and no one should happen to stumble on my house, their there for bad and I ain't got expensive property so in my case It dont take much to get the gun out. Jmo. Im a better safe than sorry guy on this topic. Ide rather make the wrong decision using force than not and something happen I could have prevented. Ill be damned if the law gets me for protecting my family and property!

What if a dog got off of a chain or out of a pen and someone was trying to help you out. knew it was your dog. Lets say he was bringing the dog back and almost got to the pen and realized that he left his phone in his truck and was waiting on a call, so he turns back to go get his phone before he gets to the pen and you blow his head off because all you saw was him walking away from your pens with your dog? Why not just roll up on him and give him a good ole whoopin? Im just saying. Not trying to start no problem but I think its pretty sorry to shoot first and ask questions later. A million things could happen and a dog is never worht anyones life or the chance of you spending the rest of your life in prison, so two families lose someone. Now Im not against lethal force, Im all for it but in a sure way. Just like when your deer or turkey hunting, you got to be sure of what your shooting.

Amen

And nothing i iwn is worth spending my son's life in prison.

I have to agree with bailey508, as a criminal justice major and pre-law student, I have interned at the DA's office. This was a question that I myself had, so I looked through several case studies, and there are many on each side. If someone is walking off your property with something of yours and you shoot them with no threat to you or your family be ready to spend the next 25 years in jail. (minimum) Then be prepared for the family of the person you shot to file and win a civil suit against you or your family. There are many laws that have to do with private property, theft, theft that harms livelyhood, etc. Some of the laws can protect you, and others can hang you as the shooter. Each DA is different, as is the GJ, and jury. Nobody feels sorry for a thief, but 12 of your peers can decide wether you should sit in jail for killing them. The question that the DA and the Grand Jury are going to ask are "is this justified". And in most cases nobody is going to believe that a dog is worth the life of a human. Everyone can talk big about what they will do, but you also have to be smart enough to know that there are dozens of non-lethal ways to deal with that situation. Take a life to protect you or your family absolutely, take one over a dog that you could have kept without going that far, doubtful.
Anthony

This is the ultimate question.  Is that property worth the cost to you and your loved ones?  Nah, it isn't.

Well stated.  The rhertoric may sound good   ...  but the reality will likely become a nightmare.

Another example for those that talk about shooting based on tresspasing. One case, Guy was on his ranch and saw someone walking around and thought he was poaching. The land owner fired at him, not intending to kill him, but hit close to him on the ground. For whatever reason the "poacher" just stood still, game warden and law were called. The land owner gave his story, yep he's a poacher and I shot at him to scare him so he wouldn't come back. Turns out the "poacher" was hunting next door to the guys ranch became turned around and was trying to find his way out. Was that what he was really doing, who knows. But, the land owner provided all the evidence needed for the guy to file a civil suit, win, and was also given a timed judgement. (have a certain amount of time to pay before you are held in contempt) After everything was said and done, the land owner ended up having to sign over the ranch to the person he "shot at" because he could not come up with the money owed. Court granted the ranch as payment. Moral of the story, know what your doing and what the posible consequences may be before you do it.
Anthony

Is there a statute of limitations for being shot at and having a gun pointed at you?  Because me and a buddy were shot at, when we were kids, and on a seperate occasion the guy pointed his deer rifle at my head, and escorted me off the property.  He is very wealthy mega hole in the butt.  He even confiscates little kids fishing tackle before he kicks them off.  Everybody thinks this guy is a major ass, but he is super rich.  he even told my neighbor once to sue him that he has more money than the county.  somebody told me that he died, and is his brother or family owns it now, but i'm not sure.

 i believe in texas they call it hte castle doctrine and the texas motor vehicle protection act you can even carry a concealed weapon in your boat.

if he is not facing you (which would be hard for someone to prove unless they saw it) you arnt "legally" able to shoot them cause of the fleaing felon act, but if there aint noone that will see it by all means protect your property that you worked hard for with any force you have to, dont let some piece of crap low life scum get it in a matter of minutes. JMO

around 1993 or so some of my co-workers were talking about a man that was having trouble with poachers/trespassing and I believe they said he caught 3 on his property. He held them at gun point and got their drivers liscenses for I.D. and proof...Long story short the land owner was charged with armed robbery...I believe it happened around Alvin somewhere.

In most states a person us allowed ti hold a trespasser or thief for a reasonable amount if time j til law enforcement arrives. 

That brin said there aint nothin i own thats worth a human life.  There are 5 people alive today because Ive defended then with deadly force and the ordeal you have to go through afterwards is sickening.  Yall say what you want, but until youve been there (which is somethin i wouldnt wish on anyone) you have no idea how stupid it would be.  The realization comes in with,  you have the right to remain silent........

Well, I'm glad I started this thread, because I figure I'd only use deadly force if I felt my life was in danger, now.  I'm fully aware of how things turn out different than you would figure they would, because there are so many changing factors and variables even day to day.

I'm a little more confused though now too.  I've read the laws lots of times, and the way I interpret them is....  I guess it has to do with interpretation including the interpretation of the police officer on the scene.  I trust a police officer more than I would trust a jury of twelve people who were picked by lawyers(in my book lawyers are at the bottom of the barrel, below doctors and real estate agents) just kiddin' I've met one decent lawyer and there are some good doctors.


The law is always changing.   Mr. Horn said that it made his life Hell, and if he had to do it over he wouldn't, but he shot the people that were robbing his neighbors' and they were leaving.

Who knows.  it would totally be a situation that I pray to the Creator that I never have to make that decision.

On the other hand my dogs are my family and they are my best friends.  It may be sad to some, but they are a very big part of my life and one of if not the most important thing to me.


rdjustham, did this occur in Texas?

there is a 50/50 chance that you will be guilty until proven innocent...this will involve having to hire a lawyer...maybe probation, community service not to mention bailing out of jail...having to take off from work to go to court...the court system is a big money making operation...and you might get to go to prison...too many unknowns for me...I'll do all I can to stay clear...

Well I would only ask one question. Could you go up to thief's family and explain why you killed him over property?

Coming in my house is a no brainer. You can only be coming in to hurt someone and I will defend my family.

A dog? Well maybe but if I have a deer rifle I will put the round through his radiator. If he tries to drive off he ain't going far. I just can't see killing a man over a dog. But my kennels are next to my house so I could think they are coming in. But I have real good cameras that are hidden real good. So they will get caught.

Property? I am not killing someone over property. If God wants me to have it then God will replace it. If God does not want the thief to have then God will take it with interest.

Every one of us has done something stupid. That thief may have someone that loves them. That person may not be able to feed their family. They could be just a horrible person that will always do bad things. But you do not know before you shoot and you can't take that bullet back. So let the judicial system handle it good or bad if you can.

no idea about texas but in Fl you can use "force reasonable" which leaves alot open to interpretation..



Just a suggestion, but i wouldnt do that.  If the "thief" tells the cop he was in fear when you shot his radiator you just commited aggravated assault, a far more serious felony than theft.  In my experience the violent crimes detective would show up and not the property crimes detective.  Just my .02

All I can say is if someone is trying to steal my dogs or harm them it ain't gona b pretty! My dogs are part of my family and I will protect them like I would my family. Its pretty sad these days a thief can get away with such things and make it look like they are the victim

After my previous post i went back and looked through some old reports of mine.  I had a case where two "thiefs" ( i use the "" because in this case they were "victims"), broke into a guys house the neighbor called us, as he pulled up the neighbor yelled to him and pointed them out, when i got there he was hitting one with a baseball bat in his front yard.  That was two years ago, he now has free room and board in a not so cozy hotel.  Not sayin i agree with it, its just the way things work.  People take precident over property.

Yup a person is far more important than property. When my dogs start making noise I do jump up and go check but I don't grab a gun. A gun can make a bad situation get worse real fast. I would not grab a bat either. If they are trying to take a dog they will have to deal with me. A deer rifle would be my last choice. I have had my share of problems and can say that any weapon makes things much more tense. Now if I see a weapon then I might have one real fast. But I have Deputies stop right by my house to do reports or whatever they do in their car all the time. If you stop by they will get your plate. If they don't know you they will chat with you. I know the deputies and they know me. Unless I do something real stupid I will not be in trouble. Plus I know the DPS around here too. That is the best protection to have. My dogs are part of my family and people around me know it.

But deadly force to protect property? Nope. But that does not mean I will not use force necessary to detain you until law enforcement gets here.

I do have things in place to stop thieves rolleyes

no it didnt.  Heres the link to the article which was the report by a State Attorney's office in Florida outside of the jurisdiction where the incident occured.  Everyone involved, FFs, LEOs and even the man's mother who was in the house at the time had the same account of the incident and it still took 6 months of wondering where I was going to end up. Which is why i say think clearly before you pull a trigger!

http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2010/aug/02/lee-deputies-cleared-shooting-death-lehigh-acres-m/

No such thing as justified use of deadly force to protect property . If you can't prove fear of your life or someone else you are going to prison. In many cases if it is possible to leave then  fear alone is not enough. True there is a lot of other variables to consider.

Don't be afraid to try a good old fashioned ass whooping to correct the little things in life.