EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I have been thinking about something that I notice while hunting behind two "alpha" male dogs of my pack, and Blake’s... I would like to hear other peoples' opinions that have jam up finished/seasoned strike dogs.

It's hard to figure out how to ask this... When you load up, and get the dogs ready to go hunt they get in a mindset. You can see their whole demeanor change once they’re geared up and in the truck. I want to know if when you run your alpha male lead strike dog with another pack that will obviously have another alpha male, do they compete…? Do they exchange rolls if the other dog is obviously a better or more seasoned dog? (what the dogs think not you) Do you think that there is a hierarchy in the woods between the dogs while hunting? Do you think they try to outdo each other?

I am not just talking about our dogs… I want to know if when you take your lead dog, and run him with another pack, does he try and take over? Or does the pack seem to follow him instead of the normal alpha male dog? And does it feel like he/she is filling out the other dogs and how they work? These are just a couple things I've been thinking about...

I wasnt going to answer this post until I read the 2nd to last sentence.  My three lead lead dogs are gyps, not males.  They dont compete at all nor do they hunt together everytime.  Each one does "thier own" thing....I like it this way.  Three of my four strike dogs are female.  The two best cur dogs I ever saw were owned by the same man...they would hunt togethe or apart, but they did best together or apart solo....not apart but with another male from another pack....they would immeadiately establish dominance over an unfamiliar dog....If I had two great males dogs that both had the alpha personality, I would figure out what combination worked best for me and my hunting buddies and be a happy hunter.

Sittin' here under a shade tree on a road trip.. resting for tonight's hunt... One thing I do know about a good dog... He gonna do what he/she does regardless.... All bullchit aside.

X 2! Our dogs hardly ever even recognize other guys dogs on hunts, they just get to business

The main reason I ask this is because of one of the last hunts I was on with Zig and Fred. They are both good dogs that produce pork when in the woods. And even when together they both go get to business... I just thought about this because of the "pack" mentality. Wolves have a hierarchy, and know they're place. I'm basically asking if when dogs hunt in a pack, do they too have this mentallity...? And if they are hunting in a pack, then why do you have split bays? I wouldn't think that would happen unless one of them is trying to show out??? IF they do not hunt in a pack, then is it every man for himself? Zig and Fred both found a hog on a recent trip at the same time about 600 yards apart. Pistol consistantly hunts with Fred when together in the woods. That is what made me think about this. Its not that they are bs'n around instead of hunting. Sorry that it came across that way.

Seen lead dogs do all the above.

I have two that absolutely hate each other. Put them together an the fight is on. But in the woods I run them together because they push each other.

Saw another that will hunt its rear off by himself or with a lesser dog..but an equal or better dog they will sull up like a dang women and do little of nothing.

Have another one that isn't alpha and isn't lead...but will break off and do his own thing regardless to what's happening.

I say dogs are exactly like people.  You have all types of individual personalities that come into play that ultimately make good dogs. But you really can't compare them do to their own weird quirks and demeanors.

Find out what way your individual dogs performs at his best and keep it that way. And I agree the best of the best are gonna do it anywhere anytime no questions...but I bet they have an identifiable oddity.  ;)

X2

Thanks YBM... I don't know, I guess I have been trying to analize my dogs a lot more lately, and more on an individual basis.

Your question about pack mentality varies. But domestic dogs do not have this as much as wolves. The independence is what helps them get out and hunt. The pack mentality allows them to share what they catch with you. I may be overthinking too but that is what I came up with over the years. I make sure the dogs know I am alpha not one of them. I have seen some setting the pecking order before huting with new dogs but they figure it out fast and get to hunting. My dogs are just dogs until it is time to hunt. When it is time to hunt I don't like it when dogs still want to mess around. I think males tend to mess around more than females. I like hunting strong female dogs because they seem to get to hunting faster. Just my two cents.

No prob.  Analyzing them is a good thing but dont get stuck attempting to compare them to each other. Cause you will come up with one good dog and the rest will be culls compared to him. Analyze each dog and what he is contributing to the overall goal...which is catching hogs. If he comes up short on that.... its time to be fed elsewhere or feed em to the fishes.  >:D

Wolves fight and hunt to determine who is top dog... and Dub, thanks for your input as well. All of the dogs know that I am Alpha male, so I guess I put my foot in my mouth when typing the statment/question out wrong. I am not saying they mess around and don't hunt either... Just mainly hunting different when you have different combinations of dogs hunting in the same "pack". Of course pups are gona do some messing around, but at the same time, the right pup with the right strike dog can make a mean team. We switch pups out, strike dogs out, and catch dogs out... and I've just noticed different demeanors with the dogs while hunting with other different dogs. They still hunt, and still find pork... its just done differently; and this wouldn't be something noticeable to someone that doesn't KNOW and have hunted with the dogs. This is not something that you can tell from looking at them on the yard. So I don't know, maybe I should have thought it out more before posting about it. Kinda just thinking "out loud" on the internet... LOL!  ;D

and Dub, so with your statement, do you not think that when two really jam up dogs from different packs are in the woods at the same time that they analize each other and try to out hunt one another as well? I'm not saying all dogs do this, but has no one besides myself and YBM noticed this???

That’s one thing that is hard having a yard full of "hunting" dogs... You would like to compare, but when you do there is no comparison. I have been through a few dogs, not a ton, but because of such I've been able to distance myself from the dogs I get to be able to examine them to the point of deciding to "feed or not to feed..." LOL!  8)

i seen it saturday night  and before

Drew, if you don't mind, what did you see exactly...?

I haven't seen it with hunting so much as just usual day to day life. For instance, when I take my gyps for a run everyone is tied to the 4 wheelers. It took me about 2 days to figure out who runs best with who. I thought that my 2 gyps with the most alpha tendencies would have to be seperated, (Grace and Paige) WRONG!  The two alpha dogs run coupled to each other, and if I try and switch them up to run with anyone else, they refuse, trust me, I drug them almost a half mile before givin up.  rolleyes But at home, all 7 of them LOVE to chase a tennis ball, and I've noticed something. Grace is def my alpha female of the group, she always has been, and is also the oldest by far at 2.5 yrs. and wants to chase a ball 2-3 times then she is done. All my others (3-8months) will take after the ball, until Grace starts running, then everyone else scatters like quail, and wait on her to finish before they will play again. However, every now and then Paige will get a wild hair, and go with Grace, which is a bit interesting, because she was DEFINATLY the most independent and alpha puppy out of her litter, and Grace is her mom. But the other strange thing I have noticed is that Gabbie sits back in the shadows, but no one else will alert before she does. Usually the way I know someone is here is when Gabbie starts barking, then Paige, then Posie, and if they haven't solved the problem by then, Grace will step in. The 2 pups only start if Grace does.

I hate not having the modify button.

When I say grace is alpha, I mean that she is the first to eat, drink, get in the truck, and she chooses where she wants to sleep, and if she says move and the other dog doesn't, well I've split up quite a few fights.

Thanks for sharing you experiences TTC... this is kind of the stuff I'm talking about. Do you think that we enable these tendencies in our dogs...? Treating them differently... I don't know a lot about phycology, but I do know people and their mannerisms. I have a habit of reading people. I find myself doing this with dogs now… I’ve owned a lot of dogs, before I got into hunting with them, and now I own a lot (IMO and My yard) of hunting dogs. They are all very similar in thinking. From then until now I’ve noticed similar traits in all dogs, and that is also something I am basing all of this off of as well. It’s all just hypothetical though, because who REALLY knows what is exactly going on in their heads…? LOL!

And good lookin' dog btw Tiny...

Ryan I guess I don't type out my thoughts good either. I think there is more one upping in the yard than when hunting for the most part. I did have one dog that would cut another dog off when chasing a pig to get the pig first. I culled him. I expect them to work together when hunting. I am saying that depending on the dog there seems to be a shifting of independence and pack mentality. It seems to me you give one up to get the other and finding that balance is what makes a good hog dog. I hope that makes sense. What you are saying is something I have thought about but don't really know how to put in words.

Hey dub, just curious on your reason for culling him??

Was he cutting the other dog off and still not stopping the hog?? Slowing the other dog down??

x2...

but I once had some sure enough top strike dogs and both were probably what most would call once in a lifetime dogs...these 2 dogs hated each other and tried to out hunt one another but would honor each other.

Ryan, I defiantly agree with you about dogs getting jealous of other dogs. No offense, but most men tend to forget, or don't want to believe that dogs, well most animals actually, have brains, and emotions. You can't tell me that they don't. I know from my own experience with the dogs I have now, as I said, I have 7, and three of them are house dogs. If I am playing with Pete, or petting on him, Grace will come, and literally shove him away from me with her body, then basically crawl in my lap, leaving no room for him. When I am outside with the whole group, they all are constantly battling for my attention, and will do whatever it takes it get it, including doing things they know are against the rules. My own belief is that dogs know who are the favorites, and if they do not feel as though they are special in some way, then they are not going to give you their all. I have seen it time and time again with dogs and horses.

Just a thought/example. My sister used to have a 9 year old barrel horse. This particular gelding was a total bad a**, like no joke. He out ran Sheri Cervi's back up horse by 1.5 seconds in Liberty pen. Sheri actually offered to by him. Now, my little sister is known world wide (LOL) for her temper, and it doesn't matter who she is mad at, if you are in her way, your going to be getting the chewing for whatever she is mad at, and that includes her animals. Now Kip (the gelding) was funnier than hades, because if Aimee hauled him somewhere, and unloaded him being nice and loving on him, he would pour his heart out for her. But if she unloaded him cussing and being pissy, he would warm up just fine and dandy, then would BUCK, BAWL, AND BELLY ROLL all the way through their run. It didn't matter if it wasn't Kip that she was actually mad at, if Aimee took it out on him, he was going to make her pay for it.

Tell me they don't know what's going on.

and thanks for the compliment on the gyp. That is actually Grace. She is truly a miracle dog in many ways. LOL If she was a cat, she's is out of lives.

I agree...

That is what I'm talking about Ruben... how dogs affect each other. I guess I should have said "in a pack" not with a "pack" mentality. That's a given. I should have also specified while in the woods and on the yard. Tiny, they do have different attitudes on the yard and in the woods. I wouldn't go so far as to say jealous, unless it is the owner that is invoking that, but I would say being analytical. I think, especially while they are pups, they are analyzing everything that goes on. Especially the Alpha Male/Female in this case would be the owner. To say that a dog doesn’t have feelings, IMO, would be blind; definitely not on our level of thinking, but certainly to an extent. Although I will say that I’ve questioned even that, and keep telling myself I’m smarter than my dog… ;D LOL! I think the best way to ask it would be.... Do dogs have politics? Just with some of the other post proves this even further. They would also have competition if that is the case, pushing each other to do better, younger dogs looking up to the lead dog, ect. I guess that is also where the handle you put on your dogs comes into play a lot too though. Finding the right easy medium when “training” pups to know that you are the alpha male/female, but at the same time not to follow you around and be independent enough to hunt.

I aquired this really big cur dog from a friend. However, his hair was a little long and I always thought something was in the woodpile with that dog. He was just an OK hog dog at best. When he was around the kennel and exercise yard I noticed that he was starting to try to dominate the other dogs ---and me.

The window to a dog's soul is in the eyes and I NEVER did trust his look. He kind of snapped at my neighbor one time as we were cleaning fish out by the kennel and I thought it was him being territorial. A couple of days later he made the mistake of snapping at me through the chain  link as I was going to scratch his chin.

I took the Ruger 10-22 and ended his dominance right then and there.

I still have a Lacy that hated an old red cur I owned. They would lock up and have some big time battles. I cut the Lacy because I thought I would never want any pups out of her. The red dog finally seccumbed to cancer and I am left with the Lacy. She is a really good dog and I wish I had never cut her.

The dog should worry about pigs not other dogs. He could find pigs but when put with dogs that found them better he would just run beside them and wait for them to find the pigs. Then he wanted to be the first one there. But what made it bad is that he would run into the other dogs to stop them instead of just running faster. It made the chases longer. I did not want my other dog to either quite trying or decide to take him out of the way. It is like at a race and someone is fast but someone else is faster so they try to trip the faster runner. I just will not put up with that. I don't mind if they hunt alone or together. But if they want to be the first they need to hunt more independent. I could hunt the other dog alone and get the same pigs. So I consider the other a waste of food. I did give him to someone that needed a dog because he could find pigs. But I want my dogs to work together like a team. It is still a work in progress.

But I want my dogs to work together like a team.

[/quote]

x2...