EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Was reading some posts from a breeding and genetic topic.
A point that was brought up on breeding top knotch dogs was the parents to those type dogs were almost always lesser of a dog than what they spawned and that should be something to consider when making breeding decisions. Basically dont take your best two line dogs and attempt to cross when you should try two lesser dogs.

Not a genealogist but from experience would have to disagree.  Actually completely disagree. All the top performers had parents that were just as good or even sometimes better from everything I have delt with.
Never once have I bred a top knotch line dog from parents that didn't have closely qualifying traits and in their own way were lesser.

Is there great dogs out there that came from no names....of course..But in a breeding of a continued line of dogs to breed a lesser dog to another lesser dog in the expectations of getting grade A stuff?  Sorry just dont comprehend. 

Some of you gene pool fanatics please break this idea down to us and let's have a friendly discussion on why this would or wouldn't be the way to go.


I say dont breed two chickens together attempting to get a duck...unless your a quack.. (sorry that was cheesey)  Haha.
But you get the picture.

Enjoy.

Agree YBM. Just trying to find a stud for my best gyp now.

I believe that inbreeding and line breeding will ge you there faster...but only breed the very best...but I also believe that over a few generations the dogs can actually produce better and for sure a higher percentage of good to great dogs...over time you can get more grit, more range, better nose than previous generations...to me it all starts with testing the pups at a young age for nose which includes, winding and trailing...then comes testing for natural ranging out and then testing for the quality of the pup baying...also look at what ages the pups actually start hunting and then see what kind of bottom and stick each pup has and at what age the pups develop the range to go all the way...all this should be taken into consideration as to who becomes the breeders...it is all about selecting the right pups/dogs for breeding...it is like a point system to grade each pup... but we also look at conformation...got to have the right tools to perform well...and smarts to know where to look for game... and to figure out how to find the exit track quickly by cutting and slashing/drifting on the track...

the goal is to get a higher percentage of good pups per litter and to improve the quality of the dogs with each generation...

I want to see natural ability in the pups to wind, trail, find, and stop a hog...a dog that will find a hog if there is a hog in the woods to be found...I want the dog to hunt with me and me not having to hunt for the dog each time I turn it out...I want the dog to make quarter mile loops in each direction and no more than that...if I don't see the dog looping I know it is on a track or the dog is bayed... and I don't want the dog to quit the track if at all possible...all of these traits come into play when selecting a breeder...

but the bottom line is selecting pups with natural instincts/ability...one that does not require much training...simply exposing it to what we want and the dog just knows what to do instinctively with minimal training...

If I have to spend a lot of time training and having to use the e collar too often and too much...then I expect to do the same with the offspring...if it takes 3 years for the dog to turn on...then I can expect the same with the offspring...so why do it??? especially when we can use the naturals for breeding...


but I will not hesitate to breed to an average to slightly below average dog from this type of line bred hunting dogs any day... before I would consider breeding to a top notch dog from less than average breeding...

but i would only do it once just to get me out of a bind if I got into a bind...

I'd like to think the scenario you mention would be a case of genotype vs phenotype. I am thinking you would be getting a superior offspring by way of combining or lining up grandparents. I hope it is not meant to take random inferior dogs and produce end all, beat all offspring. While not impossible, very not likely.

The way the post was interpreted and granted....Internet interpretation..... was that it would be a better choice to bypass a top performing female line gyp and go with a lesser performing line gyp to breed to. Vice versa with the stud dog.

I can say have I done it in the past for experiment purposes....Yes

Did that type cross throw a top notch performer....No...I got exactly what I bred....mediocre pups..just like both parents. 
My standpoint has always stayed the same on breeding.

Cross the best to the best and your gonna hit paydirt. Anything else and your just pumping out pups for the wrong reasons.

I believe in trialing each individual dog on performance to make sure they have what it takes to cut it as a solid hog dog way before thinking of throwing them into a brood pen.

To many folks out there in the puppy factory biz have got the breed to anything gyp just because she is a line dog covered.
Looking at a unknown puppy. First question is always...how to both parents work?  Biggest turn off to me personally is......she is a good line gyp................AND..what does she do? Saw to many LINE GYPS that are born culls and should have been CULLED.

Sorry guys still calling BS on this theory.  Convince Me!  :laugh:

X2
Well said
Dexter

I liken genetic manipulation in dog breeding to farming, in that you get out what you put in, you can't plant field corn and expect to harvest grade A sweet corn. Now if you take the sweetest field corn and plant from that continuously year after year you'll get sweeter corn in the end. Same with dogs but it takes longer with a higher cull rate. I just can't see breeding a mediocre dog for an out cross. Doesn't make sense.

x2...but I would rather breed to a below average dog from a long line of top hog dogs one time... and then select hard from that litter and to get me back on track that way...than to breed to a top notch dog that was a fluke ( a dog that comes from a long line of what I perceive to be average dogs)...because that breeding is a major setback to the program even though the selection process is a good one...

but as for me I already have been down this road once and now I am only doing it for a few good dogs...I bred a gritty mtn cur that is semi open to a total silent male from another breed...but the line is tight and known for hard hunting. the parker curs also have quite a bit of mtn cur in them but they are silent and already established as a breed...I will then breed a few pups from this cross back to the mtn cur...I want to retain grit, hunt, and hoping to silence the mtn cur a little when on track...also plan to have 2 or 3 mtn cur with about 1/4 pit...I know I will have culls but will do my best to retain the right pups...I am not going to turn over dogs quickly to clean up the gene pool...only interested in getting a few good dogs and slowly moving in the right direction but only when I need a replaement or two...

I am not saying this is the right way or the only way but this is how I see it and believe it is the best way for me...

OK YBM...let's here your detailed version...  :) mine is like a broken record...so your methods will be much appreciated...from what I can tell and hear is that you have some nice hunting dogs and I can see from the pics that they all tend to look alike, and they are put together nicely as well...  :)

i'll just throw this out there .  with an established line you have all sorts of variables . now considering the [ so so ] good dog is it a result of the line or a not so great owner . i know the dogs i've kept off my line are silent swift and deadly but some on other yards are just so so dogs [ good but not great  ] now i've been doggin many years and the beginners that have gotten pups are just that beginners . so is it the dogs or the owner . could i not take a gyp back that don't hunt the greatest and breed to my stud and get exeptional dogs ? well i'm sure i could . too many variables when breeding dogs to say you can only breed to outstanding dogs to get outstanding dogs . like forrest gumps momma said , life is like a box o chocolates  ;D  when we quit experimenting with breeding we fall behind or just come to a complete halt .

HalfBreed, I agree with this...an inexperienced handler can take a dog with lot's of potential and about ruin the dog especially if the dog is a little on the shy side, or, at the minimum the dog will not hunt to it's potential...and a good and experienced handler can take the same dog and make it shine...

when I evaluate a pup or dog... I try to factor in all the possibilities including how much exposure/experience the dog has  hunting, as well as the type of dog handling it has received...also for me, style of hunting is a big factor in evaluating the pup/dog.

Nah no voodoo or scientific analogies here. Lol.
I am just a firm believer on straightforward breeding best to best to accomplish the goal of passing any hereditary gene that is desired in a certain line of dogs.

Second best dogs are just that second. They are lacking in some way shape or form and thus the reason they are not number 1 dogs on your yard. A little saying I have went by was. (always breed to something as good or better than what you have or you are regressing).  The common goal is to maintain desired traits and have something worthy and capable of reproducing those traits.

The actual question to this topic that I just cannot rationalize is .....reputable breeders of line dogs that would pass up their best two dogs to cross a second best string and attempt to accomplish a higher quality dog.

I am not in any way a gene guru...Haha never even heard of a line breeding calculator or how to figure a percent of a percent of a decimal in regards to speaking of dogs breeding before getting my internet edjumacation.  ;D

But so far out of hundreds of dogs. The best of the best were always thrown from the best bred back to the best.

Its just hard to justify in my mind what I have seen work repeatedly and what did not.

That's the reason for the post is I wanted to see the breakdown on everyone's point of view to see if there was another angle that I just wasn't seeing.

As for the training issue with other folks ..totally agree....that is a main reason I dont sell pups.

And yep Rueben as you can tell I am a stickler for uniformity.  Lol
Perty easy....it comes out Yeller with a blackmouth or it gets culled immediately or a few pale faces go to some close friends.
Why not have the cake and eat it too.  :D

Good discussion boys am enjoying the angles and interpretations.

I agree...second best dogs are just that...but one time I lost my best female I had at the time and I didn't have a choice but to breed to a small female, about 35 pounds and she was of one of the colors I didn't like...but as a pup she had shown lots of range and hustle by 4 months old...did this with her siblings or alone, it didn't matter to her... and she was hunting striking at a young age...I didn't like her, she was a cull to me so she was given away...long story short I got her back for one breeding and the smallest pup from the litter was 45 pounds of hard hunting, very rough hog dog...all the pups kept were basicly the same but larger dogs...a pretty good cross but her grandchildren were probably the best litter I produced...and her 45 pound daughter I called FLY (the runt)was probably the best female I ever owned...I had to keep her on leash until we were ready to hunt...because she was going to where the hogs were...with or without us...but too much drive/hunt can be bad in real hot and humid weather conditions...

but I totally agree...best to the best is always best...and because I am not a gene guru my saying has been this...since I do not understand genetics then the best policy is to breed related but only the best to the best...because the best defense is a great offense...

my dad was a big coon hound guru he took it to a extreme all my growing up years. My uncle had some awesome money dogs. my dad would study genealogy of high power dogs and at the time knew alot of their genealogys from memory. I know i may be over simplifying it but he always said the best dogs out their were the result of two really good line bred dogs that were out crossed. He must have been right because we had some bad to the bone dogs by the time i was in my teens. A couple litters everyone was a top notch dog on coon. One male treed 70 in one season and was stolen a few days after the hides were sold. His mother was as my dad says " the finest dog I have ever seen in my life,She had everything" Line bred for several generations then outcrossed to another line bred.

sometimes a topnotch dog wont reproduce the same , sometimes a second rate dog will reproduce better than itsself . sometimes a certain cross how ever good it may look to be just don't work .

i'm still of the thought breed the best to the best and hope for the best . when you make an exceptionally good cross keep making that cross .

lets just make believe that the yellow color was a trait...
 
if hunting traits were a color all dogs would be that color and all would hunt...if it were the yellow color the variation would be from light yellow to dark yellow as to how much hunt a dog had...if darker yellow meant the best hunting trait then all dogs would be dark yellow...that explains a lot about the yeller dogs...  ;D JK, JK YBM...  ;D ;D :)

so breeding better hunting dogs would be easy (unless you are color blind  :D) because it is visual and no breeding and hunting experience would be needed...

Well I had a very good kemmer gyp and I bred her to a yellow dog of a different breed and all 10 or 11 pups came out different shades of yellow brindle... I called Robert Kemmer who was the man behind the creation of the Kemmer mtn cur and he said anytime a kemmer was bred to another breed of yellow dogs the pups would come out brindle...and he said the same would happen when the kemmer was bred to another yellow mtn cur of a different strain...but there is a reason for this...a possibility is that some yellow dogs are genetically yellow brindle even though they appear to be yellow...but the brindling is faded out to match the yellow color in yellow dogs...so once the dog is outcrossed the brindle shows up in the pups...I read that a long time ago and that is how I understood it...but I was confused by the time I finished reading that...  ??? ;D so not saying it is right but something to think about...

So to me it is very possible that hunting traits can and will play the same type of tricks...that is probably one reason we have so many culls out there...

So we are all looking for THAT dog! One that can aquire scent, diagnose the track, locate, and bay. (Sorry catch dog fanatics) My question is can you breed 2 good dogs that possess traits that complimet one another's weaknesses to create THAT dog.  For example, can you cover a gyp who possesses the ability to diagnose a track and locate with a stud dog that has a cold nose and stick to create THAT dog. Will the best traits of both parents be expressed in their offspring? Experince tells me that if you have 2 good Walker dogs you can do this to create a good coon dog. My minimal hog dogging experience tells me you need a pack of specialists to get it done. 

shotgun66...might not be very good examples but we shouldn't breed an undershot dog with an overshot dog to get perfect teeth...or a roached back dog to a sway back dog to get a good topline...

so I say breed a dog that is what you believe to be having the correct trait to one that might be lacking in that trait...but what if the bad trait is dominant???

just a few things to think about...

Great point Rueben. Thanks for the insight. Tryin to learn this hog dog business. Not fond of the spotted dogs?

Poor approach to breeding in my opinion.  I've heard of people who use the lesser dogs for their brood stock and just hunt the best.  Bad business plan if you ask me and I can't see that type of program lasting more than a couple generations at best before the whole bunch will need culling.

Starting with and continuing to breed the absolute best while keeping them as closely related as possible is the only way to roll.

I get irritated with those that think "linebred" is some term that simply means better dogs.  Even done correctly, linebreeding is nothing more than a tool used to produce CONSISTANT dogs....meaning consistant with the ones you STARTED with.  Take some mediocre dogs and linebreed them to beat all heck and you're not going to end up with anything more than a bunch of mediocre dogs that are NOW RELATED.  Everyone with a viable linebreeding program can tell you the dog their line strives to reproduce...and with a little luck, occasionally you may get one that's even better.  The major IMPROVEMENTS in the line usually come with a VERY careful outcross which is then brought back in tight.

I agree...

I remember a well known dog man that wrote several books on breeding, hunting, and also had a mail order dog supply catalog...he used to sell beagle pups and his advertisement used to say take any pup or pups and just leave me one...
It took me a while to figure out why he did this...it could only be 1 of 2 reasons or both...he was saying that his dogs are so much alike that it doesn't matter which one he keeps for breeding or for hunting....or that he is that good of a trainer...

to me, it should be a long process as to which pup is kept for hunting and breeding...and then at 1.5 years old I just might decide that he is not worthy of breeding...I spend most of my time on observing and evaluating the pro's and cons before I make a decision...and I believe that anyone who wants to breed better dogs should give it a lot of thought...

X 10! I think 80-90% of the people breeding dogs shouldn't be!! The dogs we have the pleasure of hunting are from long lines of old timers crossing "best dog" x "best dog"... Papers, color and any other menial attribute weren't considered.

It's alarming to see the rate at which people are breeding mediocre dogs and calling them hog dogs.

YBM.. I somewhat will agree with a lesser dog producing those bada$$ type dogs... But that lesser dog had better be bred by extremely great/top notch dogs

Top knotch dogs come from lesser parents?

A wise king once said to his son...IT IS BETTER TO MARRY A FAIR MAIDEN FROM A GREAT FAMILY THAT HAS PRODUCED MANY BEAUTIFUL MAIDENS AND FEARLESS WARRIORS THAT HAVE LEAD ARMIES INTO BATTLE... THAN TO MARRY A BEAUTIFUL MAIDEN FROM A LESSER FAMILY THAT HAS NEITHER BEAUTIFUL MAIDENS NOR FEARLESS WARRIORS...

The same can be said about horses, dogs, cats etc. etc.

i agree with that

Here is the thinh that lesser dog should only be a close relative, bred once, elvaluate pups and culled herself if the pups arent better than ! Because ONLY a LOOSER would BE KENNEL BLIND AND KEEP BREEDING JUST BECAUSE ITS RELATED, and not proven to be a PROVEN PRODUCER AT THIS POINT.

OTHERWISE I AM ON YELLOW BLACK MASK SIDE OF THIS ARGUEMENT.

ONLY REASON I WOULD bree to the lesser dog is if all other genetics were lost and the "Only" chance to recover that blood was to breed to the lesser dog. Recently in alot of my research I have seen alot of kennels putting up bitches and use them ONLY as brood stock, that dog never been in the woods a day in its life and produces many litters. Reguadless if that dogs sister was top shelp that bitch may not be throwing the "top Notch" gene, and all those pups and the grandpups have lost that gene forever, simply surviving off of a reputation that no longer is or will ever be againwithour carefull breeding//TESTING and dedication by very passionate individuals that are in in for love of the dog and not for the $dollar$.

Rolling back to the point on breeding strong line traits back over to a dog with similar weaker traits but strong in other departments. 

I have heard this question posed alot.

(I have a long range cold nose dog, but I would like him to be more gritty) 
Can I breed a gritty short range dog back to it and correct the problem?

Well........I figure that cross will do one thing.

More than likely lose both traits that you want to combine. 
Probably end up with a short to med range dog that has a mediocre nose and will be less gritty than desired even if more than your original non gritty dog.

Seems to me you would be countering and basically speaking ...neutralizing ....your desired traits against each other.

Why dont you breed a long range, cold nosed, non gritty back to another long ranged, cold nosed, semi gritty or more if available. This way you double your long range, cold nose genes and add onto the grit ...gradually over several crosses.
The end result hopefully speaking will be long range, cold nosed and grittier than your previous cross? Isn't that the goal to begin with? 

Make sense to anyone or do I have my armadillo hat on again? Lol  :laugh:

I am on YBM side also...but like I have always said...best to the best and keep them related...but if necessary bred to the second best one time and then choose carefully from the offspring of that cross...that breeding is way better than a total outcross no matter how good the dog...that is if you think highly of your strain...

I have given an example of breeding a dog with a strong back line with a dog with a sway back to improve the dog and to not breed a sway back to a roach back dog...because now you will have 2 bad traits and not just one...but it is better to breed dogs that have good toplines...but sometimes it is the best option to breed out one bad trait when all other traits are of the best...

My beliefs about breeding dogs have never changed since the first time I joined ethd...except for a new theory I developed about a month or 2 ago...I now believe that hunting traits can improve just from selecting from your own line/strain of dogs...we can shop around and bring a new dog in to improve on a trait but if you already have very good dogs you can actually get better...as the breeders are selected it is possible to get more hunt and more grit if you are breeding to improve those traits...I now believe that hunting traits can be a combination of several genes that act as one gene in a chromosome...so if my theory is right then these genes can be rearranged so that the dog can be a better hunter or not depending on the arrangement...

The theory about improvement from an intensely linebred line of dogs came about from reading an article on a long haired breed of dogs...long hair is a recessive trait...and over a period of time when breeding this breed of dogs the hair keeps getting longer...so they would periodically breed a dog of shorter hair to get the length back to meet the standard...I found this article when I was looking to find some information on whether or not if hunting traits were dominant or recessive...never found any info on that subject...and when I bred the mtn cur for over 15 years, the over all hunting traits I was breeding for were improving not only in higher percentages of good dogs but was getting cur dogs that were extra rough, dogs that hunted extra hard and the ability to find game improved...all from just selecting the best and only breeding the very best from the same line dogs...

just in a nutshell breeding is a crapshoot . you can breed best to best and still git snakeyes and you can breed good to good and roll sevens and breed best to worst and roll elevens   ;D  it's knowing what to look for in the offspring that matters most . best to best and hope the best is able to pass on the genes . i've seen many many good bred world beaters that never threw a decent pup . and i've seen many well bred never hunted bitches throw some of the best pups around . you just breed your dogs and hope it clicks and if it don't well begin again . myself i love the breeding game don't do it for the money ain't never got close to making a profit . but i love expirementing and trying differant crosses and assorted levels of cur and hound . allways looking to improve comes from being a perfectionist . never be afraid of a cross could be the next best thing going . and hell 22 shells don't cost that much anyway . you just have to be man or woeman enough to admit defeat when it don't work and not try to pass em off as world beaters cause they outta yo best dogs .

Well I am definitely not picking at anybody here on ETHD, it just coincidence that this paralleled a bunch of recent conversation where I was trying to decide where I stood on a side of breeding a particular dog that I felt that was not "proven"

no i didn't take any thing by it . just makeing a statement on my observations and methods of breeding . my ol cat gyp i broke from hunting hogs and baying cattle when she was 4 monthe old . being proven in the woods ain't all it's cracked up to be it's being proven in the brood pen is where it's at as far as passing on genes and traits . basically cause like iv'e allways said too many variables in hunting dogs different owners differant styles amout of woods time ect. ect. coon huntin rabbit and squirrel hunting allows a man to take his time and look at a dog for years before breeding . this hog hunting game is way differant too many things might happen before you make up your mind to breed a couple dogs . you got to be willing to go for it and roll the dice . i don't know maybe being an ol rooster man helped me to learn to take a chance on breeding . i would never think of testing an unproven cock that i paid a couple thousand dollars for i let the offspring do the talking . and if it don't work eat them  an start over . as far as genetics go we are still learning more every day . i say breed the gyp and see what you get you could get lucky and be glad you did .

yeah but but gotta be bad :-\ karma to eat the dogs! lol!!!!!

I get out ran several times and then I start thinking about maybe need to breed loose baying dogs...then I see loose baying dogs that can't stop a hog and then I start thinking about needing to breed rough dogs...it can get complicated...  :-\

Its not a very good practice for people who are really not major breeders of dogs as far as breeding a lesser dog to get better dogs . If you are just a novice breeder it will never work out in the long run the line will suffer and fall apart but if you are a experienced breeder of a line for years on years end and know your dogs inside and out here is what happens are how I have seen it happen.

This is hard to explain in just a few words . If you have bred dogs for years and years and  you have a line of dogs that you have heavy line bred and then inbred some to keep it right . You have high percentage liters but in these liters of great tight bred and even some inbred you get these liters of dogs, lets say you got a liter of 8 and 6 of them are of the highest quality champion material then you have one that is a sure nuff cull , then you have one left and he is just a even dog noting special noting major but just average at everything he does no super star might show some heavy line bred
defects on the outside as well as not having the speed staminia that all the others do.

What we experinced over the years and what we figured has happened in this liter of dogs is this.  The six super stars got the right about of genes from each dog and came out with top vigor then you had one that was just a cull got the bad genes now you got this one that is just a ole average brother are sister he are she shows they might have taken some of the defects from being bred so tight this will show up and tells you something . Well what has happen is this this ole average dog in reality, Am sure some remember me talking about paper is good for wiping your ass and real life well this is real life in our findings this dog here old Joe took the all of the heavy family gene pool he ended up being the one that took all the inbred genes the heavy line bred genes and this is why he is slow he don't show to be a super star he is just the old average bro are sister in this liter but what happen is since he took all of the great family genes from this breeding he is now equipped to be a breeding fool he is pre potent when he touches a bitch he will produce top notch dogs even tho he is not a top notch dog himself his gene pool is pure he took all the family gene pool and this is why he is just a average performer and this is why he is a pre potent breeding machine !  All the defects he has will not be in his pups when you now cross this dog but he is the one carrying all the genes that people are trying to capture but end up culling just because he is not a super star like his bros were .  All your hard work is in this one dog what did you expect after years of all this heavy breeding he is suppose to look like he does and perform like he does noting due to him but the way you compacted his gene pool over the years in all reality this is the dog your looking for to be the top notch producer of dogs its not his super star bro are sisters its the ugly duckling that everybody passes up most the time !  If people have not bred that many dogs are liters of dogs and seen this are experinced it then this is why people cannot understand !

This all has to come from hands on experience this don't come from a book you can only learn this threw breeding many many many liters of dogs and culling them and watching learning and getting a big ass head ache studying all of this . 

This is why old average Joe is now a producing champion and just a average dog himself he is prepotent because of his gene pool and the only one in the liter that took it , now this don't work in just somebody nick picking breeding this comes from true heavy bred lines of dogs !  In all of real life this dog is not suppose to be pretty according to his tight hard bred linage and people look for just the oppsite they want a pretty dog a super star dog with all the bells and whistles and most the time this is not how it works in real life in books maybe but not in real life !

If Am looking for a real producer of dogs and I had a choice between bros and these dogs come from a sure nuff bone a fide breeder of champion dogs am looking for the ugly duckling because he looks just like his ped says he should look and then I know he is packing a hell of a gun on him !

Pretty dont mean Jack !

Being a super star is one thing but being a producer and a producer of champions is a totally different ball game !

If you got one dog that is both then it wont be long and you will a legend in your time !

Thats why you dont see to many Legends !

Adding to this.

The normal person's brain is not wired to understand all of this does that mean they are dumb in no way.  The great breeders think outside the ordinary !  What it means is it takes years and years of breeding to understand all of this .  Like some of the Ole time hound breeders .  The Plott's,  The Weems,  people who have lived and breathed dogs all there life's and lived in the great era of time.  They know this but its not something that is advertised in the news paper are these open message boards.  The old Pit breeders knew this Earl Tudor, Wallace, Hemphill, Trahan, Corvino they all knew this but it took years and years to rewire their brains to understand this it took hands on eye ball to eye ball experience to see this and to understand this then it took even more to apply it .

The normal persons brain is wired to think just the opposite they thinks it takes perfect confirmation , the perfect nose , the perfect speed , the perfect stamina to make and become the perfect stud are brood dog.  This is far from the truth of the matter a dog should look like his pedigree in all reality and if you can learn to pick and choose accordingly then you are a rare man .  I can understand how people want to see the perfect dog with all the bells and whistles to be the one it all seems logical and of course there are some but they are few and far between the true perfect specimen that can become the pre potent touch a bitch dog and produce 10 out of 10 liters .


These old men that have bred dogs for some 40-50 yrs has been threw all of this but do you think for one min they are going to tell you this not hardly.   I say this openly because there is very very very very few people these days that have the time, money and the means to do all of this themselves. Generations have changed and changed the people that live in them.  Times have changed and so have the people.  How many men is left like these old time breeders the Plotts the Weems the old mountain men, the old pit breeders who were some of the greatest at gene pooling.
 I can tell you very very very few and far between just like the perfect dog that produces nearly perfect every time.  It takes a young man to come from the bottom up to do the great things these old men have done and there is just not many willing to sacrifice what it takes and the times are just entirely different these days nobody lives in the era these old men did .

I think the era these old men lived in contributed greatly to who they are today .

TexasHogDogs,

If the dog has all of the traits that you were wanting to get from this line of dogs, why arent any of them showing in HIM??

Seems like you are refering to the average dog as a male.. So what about the female you breed him to?? Would you look for an average female from this line, or breed him to one of the super stars??

Seeing as this dog is only average in what he does, would you think that some of the pups would be the same??

If this dog DID throw another average dog, would that be the next one you would use for breeding??

And finally, if the dog only shows to be average, how do you know he DOES posses the traits you want?? Do you just have to breed him and find out??

Sorry for all the questions, but you dont learn if you dont ask!!  ;)

t.wilbanks

I know man there is a million ?'s to all of this and almost impossiable to cover them all are even know how to begin to anwser them because I dont know the lines of  dogs people are talking about are even how they went about breeding them to get to were they are at without sitting down and looking at the pedigrees and the dogs .

This is hard to explain typeing .  The dog is the way he is because he took the full brunt of the gene pool in other words he took all of the family genes and none of the outcross genes if there was much outcross in there to begin with and this is what makes him slower and just a avarage dog and have maybe some of the defects .  He is packing the purer gene pool you want but he is not the dog you want him to be because of his tightly packed gentic gene pool.  You have to outcross this dog now and he will throw all the traits of his family and his gene pool he is packing the outcross will bring all of these great family traits out he is packing.  If this dog is tightly bred from your line I would be looking to outcross him on a proven outcross that your line crosses with and maybe if you can have some of your on blood in this out cross dog works even better but you dont want much of your on blood in there maybe a 1/4 because your stud dog is so pre potent.


This dog is pre potnent stacked with the great gene pool it takes to make great dogs .  If the dog was bred correct to a outcross most all the pups are super stars .  If you breed this dog back into his line you will get more defective dogs that are no good you have to cross this dog in order for his gene pool to breath and take effect. You can cross him to a outcross dog that might have a 1/4 of his blood in them but do not breed him back to full family dogs.  If you breed him back to family dogs full family dogs you gonna get culls because his gene pool cannot withstand any more of his own genes they will just be defective dogs are culls most.

If this dog threw a few avarage dogs no I would cull them do not use them to breed to.

You have to know your dogs and your line of dogs.  If you have very tightly bred dogs with minimal outcross in them and are getting great percentages out of them and then you have the one avarage dog this may be the one,  you will have to breed him to find out .  This can only work threw tightly bred many years of linebred dogs of your on any other lines in there and there is no way for you to know because you do not know every line.    Thats what I say this all comes after years of breeding family dogs when you start to get high percentages of great dogs from heavy linebred with some inbreding  this is when you need to be on the look out for that one ole avarage Joe dog most the time he is the sleeper and he is the one that gets over looked because all his bros and sisters were great dogs and he was just avarage are so and these dogs are tight bred family dogs he is the sleeper a lot of the times that took all your family genes thats why he is the way he is he took no outcross.   

As far as looking for your next breeding dog.  What we would do is take the best super star that this pre potent dog produced when we out crossed him and then start slowly breeding this dog back into the family again  and again as we got tighter and tighter we would be looking again for the Ole average Joe dog and as we got tighter and tighter we would be looking harder and harder . 

Also you can take one this pre potent dogs brothers are sisters out cross him are her to a pre determined line of dogs take the best out of that liter and again slowly start breeding this are these dogs back into the family each time getting tighter and tighter again and again looking harder and harder as each breeding got tighter for the next pre potent male are female just  the old average dog again .   As you get tighter and tighter he are she will pop up sooner are later and you just have to go threw all the motions again to determined if he are she is the real deal pre potent stud are brood gyp you are looking for .  Breeding is just a big circle is all it is .  You need only one cross in there that works the more crosses you got in there the more head ache it will be for you .

Damn my fingers hurt lol .  Hope it helps some of yall.

Thanks for the explanation...  I wasnt referring to any particular line, just tight breed lines in general ( lines with quality dogs of course )..

So this dog bred to a good outcross should show what he is packing... gotcha..

What breeding step would you take next? Since this was an outcross, their shouldnt be an average dog packing all the traits right?? Should be mostly (if not all) super stars if it was a good cross..

Would you breed the sire ( the average dog ) to one of his super star offspring?? That should tighten the line back up to the genes the averaged dog has...
 
What about one of his super star offspring to one of the sires super star littermates?? Should there be much difference between the two litters??

I can see what you mean about being hard to type all this.. Im having trouble just thinking on it!!  ;D

Dang, if i would have waited alittle longer to post you would have answered my next questions!!  rolleyes  :D

It took me alittle longer to post trying to think!!  :P

Lol.

Yeah man it just takes years to do these types of things it is not easy at all.  I only been breeding the hog dogs i got for 10 yrs now right at it and really and truthfully am just now starting to scratch the surface.  To do those types of things and do it right it takes a life time 20 yrs minimum to really get it to going good and that is with the strictest rules over that 20 yrs. period.  We were at the 25 yrs mark when I stopped breeding my other dogs.

this is basicly how I bred my dogs and rotated the females quickly and also the males at first to simulate many years of breeding...but I wanted to stay away from breeding depression which is what TexasHogDogs is talking about and some call it tired blood...I bred all kinds of dogs before the mtn cur but I didn't have a clue back then...just bred the best to the best or what was available...but we must have a clear goal in mind...and we must have the ability to pick the very best pups...Me personally I would never own a pre potent dog that acts and looks stupid...  ;D one reason for sure is I don't have the room and I would't want to clean behind a dog that is only used for breeding when I can have a stud dog that does great in the breeding pen and in the woods...

There was a great mtn cur named gold nugget in the 1970's and 1980's and a few folks bred intensely to him...I knew a man who had a 7/8ths gold nugget male and he looked like a dog I would have taken to the pound...but that dog produced some sure enough bad to the bone hunting dogs when bred to the right females...but 3 male pups that made him famous were littermate brothers and I owned one for a while but a man kept offering me more money and a well bred female to boot of the same lines so I let him go...but the dam to the 3 males was one heck of a hunting dog and she did have gold nugget blood in her but not too much...those 3 pups were used to produce more kemmer dogs but the 7/8ths dog was given the credit and rightly so...

but there is one thing I know...sometimes when a very linebred and inbred dog is bred to a below average line of dogs there will be just as many culls as good dogs produced...but breeding within the family we can produce some litters of 100% hunting dogs where we have above average dogs consistently...but when the blood gets tired we start breeding sluggish dogs and the litter sizes get smaller and some of the dogs get smaller...and an outcross might work but usually will have a few culls and if too many culls scratch the plan and do it over with another line...but if someone already has a dog with 50% of your line that is already a proven hunting dog and that dog looks right then you just saved yourself a few years and that dog can be bred in to freshen the blood and keep you going for a good while before bringing in some new blood again...

but we can breed a few good dogs without having to get all serious about it if you don't want to spend the money...find a great hunting dog that has a good line behind him and buy  several daughters from him as pups...but make sure the dam is of the same quality and the said dam has relations to the sires side of the bloodline...get the best female pup and breed her to her sire and now you will have a chance to get some top notch hunting dogs just that quick...I am hoping to do just that but the female is 11 years old and the male is a 4 year old dog that is burning up the woods...just trying to keep it simple...but like I always have said...breeding is half of it and selecting the right pups is the other half...and then proper handling brings out the best in them...

\
I agree with the strictest of rules for sure...when a mistake is made don't keep going forward...back up and scratch what was done and then do it over again from another angle...

spend more time finding the right line of dogs to start with than starting with a half ass line of dogs because it will take years to clean it up enough to produce consistently a high percentage of good hunting dogs...

starting out with the right dogs and you can tweak and improve on an already good line of dogs...

That right there is probably just as hard as breeding the right dogs!!!
How can you breed sure enough hog dogs when you cant get your hands on any to begin with!!  :-[

All the old dog farts with a good line wont let go of any dogs except to close friends, family, kiss a$$es, blah blah blah..

Wonder why all the "average" hog dogs are getting bred and producing "more culls in the world" ? Cause thats all some can get!!

And before someone says " find a dogman close to you and drag their hogs, learn all you can, and they might give you a pup" , what if there are NONE close??  Sure theres plenty of guys with dogs around, but no well established, sure enough HOG DOGS..

If it wasnt for ETHD, There might be a handful of guys that i know that even hunt hogs... ( and their dogs suck!  >:D )

There, i feel better!!  ;D

THD, do you think that it was easier for those pit breeders to get what they were looking for versus someone breeding for sure enough strike dogs??

If it wasnt for ETHD, There might be a handful of guys that i know that even hunt hogs... ( and their dogs suck!  >:D )

There, i feel better!!  ;D


 ;D ;D >:D

ok...I am going to say it too...I haven't seen many dogs that I would feed...not going to mention breeds....and I am sure lots of these breeds have improved over the years but just like when dodge screwed up back in the 1980s it left me knowing I would never buy another dodge even though I know they look good and I know some are even better that what I own now... :) but the same happened to me back then with dogs...I saw dogs that couldn't smell their own butt and dogs that would only run a hog they could see...heaven forbid if they lost sight of it...they would give up they track and come back...and I would be tripping all over the dog when the dog should be out hunting.....

I finally saw the light after about 7 or 8 years of this crap...and found me some real dogs...but they were kind of small and too open but at 10 months old would run a hog in the thickest briars for hours...yea...my kind of dogs...bred a BMC once into the line for quieter mouth and larger size...that put me on track...

this time around I went straight to the squirrel/coon dogs again...but taking about 3 years to settle on the right dogs...

right now I also have a 1/2 redbone with 1/4 ab and 1/4 pitbull and he is a beauty and hunts pretty good for a dog bred that way...he might be for sale at some point but not right now...

you should try it...you might like it... ;D :)

sounds like he will be a bit rough for my taste...  ;D

Ive got alittle breeding planned in the future ( as soon as my gyp comes into heat ) that I hope turns out..  :)

THD, do you think that it was easier for those pit breeders to get what they were looking for versus someone breeding for sure enough strike dogs??


No the gameness trait is very elusive , very very hard to trap down to were you can get it consistent most the time.  Ive seen great dogs crossed to great dogs and the whole liter does not turn out in many peoples amazement and some of the greatest bred game dogs in the world.  Its just like with hog dogs you have to find that click that mixes with your bloodline this is a big key the cross.  I would say the gamness trait is just as hard are even harder to come by than what you are looking for in a hog dog.  This is why you have to breed familys once you get youe family right and can produce good dogs on a even bases then you can look to other familys of dogs to complement yours the cross and if all is right even add to the two both your family and outcross family.

Your family dogs need to produce consistent good dogs and some great dogs but once you get your family of dogs right then when you cross if the cross is right that is when the really super dogs should come.  You then take those super dogs from the cross and go back into your family back to breeding again tighter and tighter looking for the one I was talking about in other post and producing great dogs all the way back down.

If you try the cross once and it dont work never go back are even breed to dogs with that cross in it no matter how little.

I just want to make clear in no way is this pre potent dog a cull .  He is a dog that hunts his ass off but he is lacking in Vigor .  He may be lacking in lungs , he may be lacking in speed , he may be lacking in looks department but one thing he does have that is above all the rest he has the HEART of a Lion and if he could speak he would tell ya he just soon die on a bad hog as he would any way else.  Hog runs threw his veins and he puts this into his offspring and if out crossed correct his sons and daughters are hog hunting machines with his heart .  Some may be different from me but frist and foremost to me a dog has to have the heart to get it done all else comes afterwards.

this sure is some hard stuff to understand