EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

If you've hunted for any length of time you've gotten on runners. Early last summer, I got outrun a lot and while early on I thought it to be these running hogs everybody was mad at, I eventually came to the determination, hard as it was to admit, that it wasn't so much the hogs runnin as it was my main dog being incapable of bringing a hog to or holding a bay. This was a long process of trial and error but since I admitted to it, I have been able to cope with it and adjust accordingly.

Don't get rude with each other on here, but please tell me what you feel your main problem is and how you intend to fix YOUR strategy.

Well, T-Bob, since you ask... I plan on being closer behind them more often, as in closer to them the majority of the hunt... If they start ranging out really good on a track you have to stick with em. That way if they do get it stopped for even a short period of time, you can let the CD loose and get the job done. I have been out run here lately more than I'd like to admit, and I feel that is what I will have to do to get them STOPPED for good. Another idea, is figure out why they are not holding the bay... if you can see why the bay is breaking or why he/she isn't stopping the hog for long enough to get the rest of the dogs to him/her then maybe you/we can adjust accordingly. JMO... I'd have to say the number of hogs we got stopped last year compared to this year isn't looking good. But I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles...

Good post T-Bob,

Track speed and raw speed are my quest. Conditioning is the key to helping your dogs get there if they have the speed. All of our hogs run unless they are bedded. I would assume this to be true for most people.

I am breeding fast to fast looking for faster. Good stlye and cowdog grit/style are a given, but the speed is what stops runners for me.

As everyone knows I like to carry a Stag or two to put down when the need arrises. The raw speed of the stag running with the curs has really helped.

One thing is terrain. We bay lot hogs in thickets wher u have to get on your hands an knees to a caught hog. Its hard for a dog to stop one in that stuff unless it catches. Another thing is if a hog wants to run its goin too. Them hogs run every day and my dogs only run when i let them out. And these days pigs hit the ground runnin when they are born. My dogs aint the best but catch lot hogs with em but i hunted with one best dogs in my area couple dsys ago and got out ran. Hog just didnt want to stop and he wasnt goin too for long

Btw that "main dog" is no longer the main dog. That's how I adjusted, I got very lucky and had a good friend give me two young dogs of his who quickly changed my fortunes.

For me it wasn't a problem of finding hogs as much as working ability.

Another aspect of this is the type of catch dogs you are using. I have found it to be very helpful to use catch dogs that can be sent to a running hog or that can be run on the ground. If the catch dogs are down and hunting out short range it takes the advantage away from the hog.

Most of the runners will hold up for the first few seconds and then break. Being on the ground gives the catch dogs a big head start on the hog. 30 sec to a minute faster than a dog turned lose from lead or truck.

My Stag x Dogo catch dogs are quite a bit faster than my fastest curs, about 1/3 faster. If they are with-in 600 yds of the first bark the hog will be caught quickly. If the hog holds untill it hears the catch dogs coming in, a common problem, he will be strung up in short order in most cases.

Is this a 100% fix, of course not. My dogs do get beat, but not near as often as they used to using conventional type catch dogs.

So really I have made a biger change in my catch dogs than my cur dogs. It is working very well for me in the open ground as well as the thick and rough country.

I have had more luck lately just putting one or two dogs on the ground. Maybe its coincidence or luck but they have bayed where they struck the past few hunts

one or strike dogs on the ground can work real well. The dogs will back up and bay and not put much pressure on the hog. I am talking about dogs that have enough grit to only bite down if the hog tries to break. Add another dog or two of these type and they will pressure the hog into running...In this part of the country where it is thick in most places. The hogs will get away because most dogs can not keep up with the hog during this time of the year when the weeds and briars are think and tall...no to mention that the hogs can usually outlast the dogs in the heat...cause most dogs are on a chain most of the week and are not in top condition for this time of the year...

But if the hogs are dog smart they will run as soon as they know the dog is on track and run hard and non stop...When they feel the heat they turn to the thick stuff but most know to go to the thick briars...


I know what the perfect strike dog is but there is a fine line that you can go over one way or another...but not that hard when running 1 or 2 dogs...what is hard is to have 4 or 6 dogs of that type hunting together...because they will go over that line...

But I like to run all my dogs and I like grit...so my style is best suited from January to the first days in April...When the weeds are down the races will be quite a bit shorter...Summertime, the races are longer but usually there will be a bay...sometimes the dogs fall out from heat exhaustion...but this is hog hunting...

I like catching hogs...but my top priority is to hunt the dogs and catching some hogs rather than catching more hogs but hunting less dogs...now if I had the hunting places I would option to go with the fewer dogs if that was the way to catch more hogs...different hunting spots require different stratagies...

This topic of all topics has been the most challeging for me...

one of the problems I had was catching hogs 2 or 3 ranches over due to the dogs sticking no matter what and that there puts knots in your stomach...but like I said before...if the dogs could run in it it was a caught hog pretty quick...

I have been thinking for a good while on starting a thread on what you perceive to be the perfect strike dog...this one that T-Bob started is close but coming at it from a different angle...

Rueben makes an excellent point about enjoying good dog work. I too enjoy putting time into the young and letting them gain wisdom and talent from the older dogs in the pack but, this time of year is not the best for that. During the next several months I have the oppurtunity to make it or break it with a few farmers in my area, one of whom told me that dogs are ineffective and that catching more than 1or 2 hogs in a hunt is a fairy tail. I told him what me and a friend normally catch given a viable population and he told me he'd believe it when he saw it. At that I told him I would put up or shut up. Catching large quantities of hogs is as important to me as catching trophy hogs. Big boars are always deserving of a pat on the back, but my goal is to be able to drop dogs on a Wednesday morning at 6 am and have 10-20 hogs in my trailer by 5-6 pm on a ROUTINE basis.

To accomplish this I recognized that my good ol strike dog took to long and disturbed too much ground while catching one hog so thru luck and a couple gifts from a friend I started pouring my time into a few gyps who are able to not only find hogs but have the cow sence to bunch them OR recognize that a caught hog doesn't mean works over. The more pigs they got on the more they got on the shorter the races got and I then fully realized it wasn't the hogs so much as the dogs. I hunt a lot with a friend who also has very talented dogs but those aren't the hunts I'm Refering to. I'm talking me and the girls plus a catchdog.

I attribute the recent relative success to speed, brain and working knowledge.

I have lots of dogs that will "bay the hair off a hog" but the more I watch one particular gyp the less I care about what I used to. Even in front of a hog, she don't get excited, she just works em and keeps em worked.

That's what I'm getting at, I have decided I'm not gonna worry about "runners" I'm just gonna continue to raise my personal standards, see if it pays off.

Each year the hogs get smarter, faster and harder to catch it seems like.  I use to have no problem when I had my ruff dogs smart ruff dogs that is even tho I got a couple killed it happens if you are in this business long enuff are hunt enuff.

Soon as I cut some of the stopping power out of them dogs the running started there is no if ands are butts about it.  Now am right back to puttin it back in .

I have caught just as many hogs without dogs as I have with. When u hunt rice field country or any open country and you are own horse. The hogs will slip across fields if you watch the hog while your running him down on horse you will see that a hog can't run long distance as long as he is in a dead run then he cant breath he has to stop and fight. But if he is in a trot he can run all day. So if you can breed a dog with enough speed then they can put the heat on one to stop him from running. I made an out cross with one of Vandorns gyps. Tshelly hunts behind a pup out of the cross and I think her name is ruby aka seabiscut now she is not a super dog long range hog finding machine she is still a young dog. But got more speed than a NASCAR. I got to hunt behind her one day and a runner broke on the dogs some super dogs in this race when I seen that gyp cross the first road she was 75 yards ahead of everything when she came across the next opening there was not dogs even close behind her. She put that hog at bay. People don't understand stand a dog with brain and speed until u hunt behind. One. Those are the gentics I want in my dogs. Ive hunted just about every southern state. There's no harder place than the other. The hill country with Jesse Paul was probably the toughest for my dogs do to there feet being to soft. But they still put hogs at bay in those hills.

Also I might add I will never take it out again no matter what .  Aint noting worse than running hogs and this game is suppose to be stopping them catching them not running  them.  If you got 20,000 acres then I can see your game and still would not want to do it .   But not the land we got .

Another aspect of this is the type of catch dogs you are using. I have found it to be very helpful to use catch dogs that can be sent to a running hog or that can be run on the ground. If the catch dogs are down and hunting out short range it takes the advantage away from the hog.

Most of the runners will hold up for the first few seconds and then break. Being on the ground gives the catch dogs a big head start on the hog. 30 sec to a minute faster than a dog turned lose from lead or truck.

I could not agree more Silverton .  I have helded mine back this year because I wanted to put another one with him for some help just have not had the right dog to run with him yet .  It sure as hell makes a big difference.

Some of those sho-e-nuff runners... you either got to catch them straight up(and accept the damage) or have the bottom to stay with them till they fall out(and accept the fact you'll be on somebody else's property  ;D)...

... neither of which I really care to do these days, so I'll just be content catchin' all the rest until that old runner finally decides he don't want ta run no more  ;D

Well dog work is dog work and I am a fan of good dogs regardless of their jobtitle.

That being said, to me PERSONALLY, Im not looking for folks to leave a hunt that I hosted and say " yeah, but did you see his catchdog!?!?!!!!"
I want my curs to hold the hog at bay. That won't always be possible but that's what I'm shooting for. I was hunting with some folks once and had my youngest gyp take a track nice and quiet and calm and slip off 1.4 miles and bay a good boar. I told the other folks about it and we headed off that way. It took a long time, probably close to an hour to get over there and by then most the other dogs had joined the bay. This hog was bayed solid. We got to I believe 700 yards and one of the fellas let loose the bulldog. By the time we got there the boar was on deaths doorstep and not really worth taking pictures with as he was in bad shape.

I'm no longer worried over it and MAYBE it was the right call, who am I to say, but I would have rather gotten to walk in and make eye contact with her and then catch it. She did well and I feel like I owed her more than what she got.

X2 Texashogdogs
Rough dogs with a rcd on the ground on the ground.  Seems like I had more runners when I had a long range dog in the #1 spot.  Changed my dogs up amd got some roughs on the ground and haven't been out run but a couple times. 

a friend of mine runs mt cur and pit crosses with vests on them...he catches a ton of hogs in the right conditions and gets outran in other places...

here lately we have gotten on a boar that keeps outrunning the dogs... this hog has been teaching me... we see him cross a pipeline and when he crosses he is moving....but when the dogs cross on the track behind the hog you can see he is travelling faster than the dogs are trailing...this place is a jungle, no cows and lots of under growth so it favors the hog...once upon a time we caught lots of hogs in this place and lots of hogs over 300 pounds but we don't like hunting that spot like we did before...now if we had a faster tracking dog it might be a different outcome...

T bob,i think the term "raise the bar" is a good one to use. The reason i say this is...... from the day hogs were realased into the wild and became "feral" they have continuously adapted to or overcome most obstacles that would normally force other species to be rapidly thinned out or at least kept at a controlled number. One of the the things they have "adapted to" is us dog hunters and in a scense they "set the bar" first by figuring out that running long distances would more than likely keep them out of harms way,i guess what i am saying is YES, it is our turn to "raise the bar" and change it up a bit by utilizing rougher dogs and running catchdogs before they all become runners,thats what keeps it intersting.......changing and succeeding where others have failed.

Breed some greyhound into your baydogs, greyhound and whippet crosses naturally bite the rear end.  They wont run if there a*ses are getting bitten.  The Kiwis were onto this years ago and the idea is gradually catching on here for bailing dogs. 

I do agree with Paul T on the catchdogs though.....seriously I could outrun some pits...

T

I agree to some extent but don't feel more butt biters are the be all end all. If they work for some that's great, but it's not what I'm headed towards.

We don't have to agree though, that's what I'm getting at. We should all set a goal for ourselves and not take our eyes off of it until we clearly see that we are wrong. If the evidence shows we are right, then full steam ahead.

HOGDOGGERSPC

Yes sir.  I tell ya there is a ton of folks that want to judge a dog just by the range it gets out and hunts thats all I hear from folks boy that dog ranges he gets out there dont he.  It dont take a long long range dog to be a great dog.  When I just had short to med range dogs that were ruff and sure nuff worth there salt leave no bush unturned and sure nuff get in that butt kinda dogs we didnt have all this running like we got now.  Sure we get our share with these dogs now but the runs have gotten longer and longer.

I just thought I wanted to take some grit catch out of those dogs boy was I wrong wrong wrong .

T-Bob...reading between the lines...correct me if I am wrong...but your goal is to breed a good and silent hunting dog that windmills and bays hogs and does not pressure the hog or hogs...but does all it can to turn the hog back to the other bunched up hogs if one tries to break...or... if it is a lone hog to stop it and then back up and bay...keeping it as non-threatening as possible for the hog...kind of like a good cow dog...that is what I believe is the best hog dog out there day in and day out....this dog has grit to fight a hog but at the same time it is genetics that gives him the desire and inclination to keep the hog stopped...and the desire to do this is greater than the desire to fight the hog...

Exactly.

Noah said either catch the hog or run the hogs lungs out, but with all due respect that couldn't be further from the truth. There are dogs out there who are capable of running a track faster than a hog can lay it, catch up to the hog on a sprint and give them no ground to gain a trot. Even they can be beat on occasion but day in day out they go to work smart and safe. Noah, you are gutsy and an adventurer, it would only be fitting that your dogs will reflect your personality. I see them on here and on Facebook and would love to hunt with you some day. As far as gritty smart dogs go, I believe yours are the real deal. I respect those dogs too and recognize their abilities and usefulness.

Mr Rueben, that is the dog I have in my goal, however if I could add one more trait to the list it would be the knowledge to watch me and adjust position and pressure per my movements, I can hiss the dogs in to catch now. I have one who I can smooch and talk to and she will let one bust out of something I don't want to get into and/or drive them closer to me. What I would love to see long run is to have a yard of dogs that would drive hogs like the old days curs + take commands like modern bomb squad dogs.

Pipe dreams maybe, but aim small miss small.

As bad as I hate to admit it, ole t-bobs a little smarter that I thought, unless he read all this in a book or somethin. LOL!!!  But i agree and understand 110% with what he is saying. RAISE the bar ________

Good read fellas...If I can catch a hog here and there I'll be alright. Everyone made good points, my strike dog is fat so thats my excuse lol  ;D.

I have a gyp not gritty at all bays real loose dont think she will ever get a cut on her but I have found her baying bushes cause she wouldnt get in there close and watch the hog old hog would hit the back door and gone. But if I run her with a rough dog she gets her courage and will nip and bite and stay with the hog up close and they wont loose it I got 2 cur/pit mutts rough as guts I toss them in the mix they run anong with her and do the dirty work.

Great post T Bob. I agree with Silverton, TXHOGSANDDOGS, and Hoggdoggersc on the speed and grit aspects. I would add intelligence, adaptability, and willingness to pack with other dogs to the list. Our #1 strike dog is loose as goose. He has displayed very little desire to put teeth on hogs. He finds them almost everytime we go, works large groups like a cow dog, seems to single out large hogs, and rolls out on other hogs when we get him help . He has a bottomless gas tank. I have no doubt that he is athletic enough to be a good stop dog. I think he simply chooses not to. He is the Deion Sanders of hog dogs. He is paid to cover, not tackle. We are searching hard for a sure enough athletic, rough help/stop dog that will pack with him. Our goal is to add some grit to a dog like him for THAT dog we all want. 

I agree that this is the perfect hog dog but we are talking about the overall big picture in general...It would take several pages to describe the fine details that make a hunting/hog dog...

The truth as how I see it...most cow dogs don't have the nose or hunt and range that I like...but they have the smarts to keep a hog bayed...

A large mtn cur of 55-60 pounds is what I like...the good ones have range, nose, and the ability to find a hog pretty quick...but they were bred to catch and kill game...but generally...from what I have seen... is that 1 or 2 of these type of dogs will keep one bayed...more than that and it is caught or stopped because the dogs were able to manuever and keep him stopped or caught...the desire is to catch and not to keep one bayed...but these dogs will catch and let go as they get tired... but once I got there they would catch...but I made them back up until I was ready...later, I carried a gun because I didn't want a dead or crippled dog.

but I like the mtn cur and their type of personalities match up with mine a little better...it is more of a kill or be killed type of mentality... ;D unleashing an uncontrolled... yet controlled power...don't ask to explain it... ;D :)

Because I am new to this and still tryin to figure it all out I want everyone that reeads this to understand that I'm not saying that this is the way it is everywhere, but this is what I see ! Maybe I can learn something from you more experienced guys with your more experienced dogs. I deal with runners all the time !I don't usually get em. I have seen a hog actually bayed only one time in Ohio. When I say one time I mean a bay that didn't break and I actually walked into a bay where hogs were holding for a dog. Normally what I see is hogs runnin from our wind, even from a couple hundred yards, or dog locates hog, barks twice, hog starts runnin and dogs start chasin. This goes on for miles and miles and miles and at some point ya just wanna grab the dogs and go! Now this happens if I have my hound cross with me cause he has the bottom you talk about. He won't stop till he falls over ! Now I know for fact that when these hogs start runnin I'm probly not gona get it. I've seen the hog stay bout a mile ahead of the dogs and stay there all day long ! If my dogs grab a hog when they first find it, and I mean grab it and hold it , I can get that hog. This is the only way I have been able to get one ?? They have to slip in quiet and catch it ! Now, I know from all u guys that there are dogs that can find one and keep it bayed without catching, my dogs can do that too ,like when I took em to G.A.  My dogs did good. But these hogs in Ohio need a dog like yur talkin bout cause all these hogs here are runners, even the little ones, they are different than those hogs in GA. Please don't tell me they aren't because its a fact. Everythings different here ! So, if anyone can show me one of these dogs your talkin bout I will pay big big bucks for it ! Or maybe you can give some tips on makin one. Long story short, in ohio its straight catch or no pork !

smarlowe,

I don't think their is  one type of dog that can catch a hog. But probably the best dog is a fast track dog that is silent...then this dog must do all it can to keep the hog from running...and that dog shouldn't apply any pressure if the hog isn't trying to break...to me the hog needs to feel that it is safer to not run than to run...but like it has been said in the past...some hogs will not hold bay because they have been dogged enough and they have learned to run... and then we have evolution that has helped the survival of the hogs..we as doggers have been the biggest reason why these hogs have evolved to what they are today...otherwise they would all have been caught by now... 

Rockin Roo brought up the fact that hogs run more today than way back when...We have discussed this many times here on ETHD.

A lot of us believe in 2 things...one is that the hogs learn and adapt...2. the easy hogs have been caught and the ones that get away are the ones that will pass on their genes... and these hogs prefer flight rather than fight...but these hogs are ferocious when cornered or when pushed into a fight.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that the ones with the floppy ears that looked like barnyard hogs would rather fight than run. The runners tend to look like russian hogs with the smaller pricked ears and the tall shoulders and the smaller rear end...skin out a runner and you will see the  power and an animal that is built for speed...the power is balanced but it is exaggerated up on their shoulders and the top of the neck... the offspring of these type of hogs are usually are born red with black stripes or black with red stripes...  :)

I write like it is fact...  ;D but these are opinions and beliefs that I have developed over the years... and... we learn from each others way of thinking...and that is a good thing... :)

Seriously? A mile in front of the dogs? Those hogs ain't runnin, they ain't got no pressure to. Sounds to me like what has happened is your hunting some hounds that couldn't find herpes in a ho house. ;)

I shouldn't say that as it sounds rude, but seriously, what your seeing is not a matter of loose vs rough or anything of the sort, you definetly have some dogs that have zero stock sence at all. And the ones that catch immediately I'd be willing to bet have bull blood in them right? Or running hound blood? See those dogs have an instinct to stop the game and create confrontation. Sounds like the hounds that are unsuccessful are probably tree bred dogs aren't they.

Respectfully, I don't think the problem you are describing relates to this conversation so much.



What part of Ohio are you in? I've got a trade show in Columbus in the fall and could maybe spare a few days to see these marathon hogs if you'd like to make a hunt?

The more I read what I wrote the more rude and cocky it sounds, don't take offence please, none was intended. I'm just trying to be helpful in my foot in mouth kinda way.

T-Bob, not many people have seen the type of dog your talking about. Take it from me, you can tell them till your blue in the face, and they won't believe what they haven't seen. I have offered to show people many times over the years and most never show up.

You're right. Chance has tried to tell me that many times so I will just shut up and have fun from now on.

I'm a slow learner Mr Owens.  :D

Reuben , the hog you described is all I have here. No floppy ears at all. Tall shouldered , little ass. Looks like the tazmanian devil on the old bugs bunny cartoons. T bob, I am not offended, I have not had many dogs, first dog I had was silent, short ranged and would grab any hog we found big or small. The bird bull I have now is pretty good at locating a hog but he won't touch one without help. As soon as he barrks at it its off like a deer and yes I'm not exxagerating when I say these hogs will get out a mile past the dogs ! The hound cross I mentioned will stay on that track all day but its rare that we ever get in catching range again. Now I love the sounds of the dog yur talkin about, yes sir I want one !!!!! My dogs did real good down south but up here it's just different ! I am in southern ohio near athens. If your in ohio I woill gladly put ya up while yur here. I would appreciate the oppotunity to learn first hand from ya.

Well heck, I doubt I can teach you anything, but I'll try to get a few days and we can have some fun. If their that bad we just just have to shoot em  ;)

Tbob, thanks, I thought you were gona be mean about it !lol. You let me know when yur comin to town and I'll do eveerything I can to make yur stay a good one ! And shootin these damn things is ok too !

Bigo, I do believe ya all about that type of dog. I just don't know how to get ahold of it. I'm raising some that I hope will help but I have never had the chance to see dogs that can work like that. If ya ever want to come and show me I will pay for your trip. Respectfully , scott

X2  It seems to me that our problem isn't speed its the thick terrain. A month ago we got the chance to see our pack stop a runner (bout 80lber. flying low) out in the open. That hog was stretched out and gettin it! He took off right when we put the dogs on the ground and he had a hundred yard head start but the curs caught him. So that tells me that our dogs are fast enough.

 When we get outrun, it usually plays out like this..... the dogs are out in the woods and we hear a dog strike. We may hear a few barks afterwards. Looking at the garmin, all of the dogs head that way. Soon after, they will split up and go in different dirctions. Every now and then a dog may stop and bay up but  then it goes quiet and the dog or dogs is still in the same place for about 3 to 5 minutes and and then they take off again.

At the same time, a dog or two will be a mile away still running.

 We go in to see what the dogs who quit barking are doing and they will usually come meet us and then we will find a  piglet or small choat. So we will load those dogs up and then have to go pick up the other dogs because by then they are getting on someone elses property.

This scenario is very common this time of the year. It seems like there are lots of sows with young ones that split the dogs up and we wind up with nothing caught and very tired dogs by the end of the night.

DJ...that is why I like January to the first days of April...The weeds are down and dead or just barely growing....and it is cooler weather to boot...the hog can bust through the thick stuff and the dogs have to work their way thru and they also have to follow scent on top of all that...get the hog out where it is somewhat open and more than likely it is a caught hog...

Haha she is FAST!! My black gyp is just as fast or faster too

I agree, just like professional sports... SPEED KILLs!! If anything I'd like to create faster, nut pulling dogs!!

Scott, I'm 65, lung cancer surviver, four bloodclots in the lungs surviver with COPD and hooked up to oxygen so I can't make the trip. I split my dogs up to my kids but if your ever this way I will see to it that we go hunting. I go every week, but have to stay at the truck and give advice wheather they want it or not

Bigo , yes sir thank ya much.

scott you still alive?? i figured the mountians would have swallowed you by now

still want to come down for a yote hunt before im hitched rem ;) ;D