EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Without a doubt a very exceptional dog, I understand that.

The dog has been dead for 15 years and nobody has been able to put together a better one yet ?

If so why isnt that dogs name all over the place.

I have several dogs with his blood and they are great, I just don't understand why another has not taken his place by now..............If these dogs are being bred right.

The basis of this post is not whether the Ben carried great gentics but  why after 15  year are people trying their hardest to concentrate only his genes.

With this being said, I know for a fact there are many of you on here who have way more knowledge on every possible dog related subect than I do....... I just wanted to get some of yalls thoughts.

the big question to me is this...was ben a one hit wonder or was he out of a top sire and dam as well as grand dam and grand sire???

but as far as your question as to why only ben is known probably has more to do with selling pups for the highest dollar...if I liked the ben dogs I would focus my breeding program from a son or grandson or grand daughter...but one that is as good as ben or even better...it just makes sense that a higher concentration of good blood produces a higher percentage of better dogs...

I'm gonna start by saying this is just my opinion as I usually do. Ben was bred to many females. That's the first reason he shows up in so many pedigrees. He was bred so much because of three things. One, he was a really good dog obviously. Nobody wants to breed to a lesser animal. Two, he was campained strongly much like Dash For Cash or other big name studs in the horse world. This usually means that whatever is being campained is sensationalized to some degree. People that aren't personally familiar with the animal will usually accept the extra dynamics for a multitude of different reasons. The third reason is that Ben produced. He was a dominate stud which means that his genetics usually superceded the genetics of the females he was bred to. Most studs are not dominate in that sense. He was the producing stud in the black mouth world for several years. This is the legacy that was created. Like anything else, when it dies, it gets better. Good dogs become great dogs, and the great ones become legendary. Everybody wants their own legend or at least a part of one. This what I see as being responsible for the "Ben" craze.

Ben was a catchdog. He was used to catch hogs and to catch cows. Culled by his original breeder for being a bay buster on cows.  Ya'll im going to say is great marketing and great money to be made. Bottom line. No one brings up the bitchs that made the pups out of him.  A good producing bitch can make some dang good pups to. Its all about the market.

great marketing went into this dog in the full cry magazine...not trying to disrespect Donald Cain but he mainly wrote about Ben in the full cry column that was written for the FBMCA...if it wasn't about ben it was about ben dogs...all were built right and top of the line...but that was his style of writing...the way I read it it seemed that the FBMCA was built around that dog...it was in the beginning when some folks were trying to bring together the bmc and develop a registry for the bmc...a few other registries were started at about the same time but went by the way side...

Could not have said it better!!  ALL ABOUT THE $$$$$$

Awful hard to compare what you have seen to what you have not.  In my years I've seen lots of dogs that the owners thought highly of That just didn't do much for me personally.

 Its amazing what advertizing can do, Give him some time and Im sure Mr Wright can sell sand in egypt.

As a breeder of dogs for a long time now 30 yrs .

Sometimes to much of a good thing "kennel blindness" makes just the right amout of noting in the end you keep beating that dead horse what ya gonna get a dead  horse what have you lost a great bloodline and then on the flip side sometimes just the right amount of noting makes a great thing and if it dont then it was noting to start with so what have you lost noting just what you started out with .

Not saying this is what it is but it comes a time when you got to stop looking at the blood line the one dog started and start looking at the dog you are breeding today!

Is there a way out of this glass house  ?

Sure just throw a rock !

Ding ding ding, winner winner chicken dinner!


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

x2...I have culled better dogs in some cases...

I have read until my eyes want to explode.

Please someone explain to me how you get something that is 50% X-dog / 50% Y-Dog / 37.5% Wetherford's Ben....are they referencing the combined % of WB from the X/Y pairing??

Also, how is it that the NKC would register a gyp from Adams Ranch (T.L.S. Delight) but they would not accept a dog that fits the standard but doesn't have the paper work much like the Delight gyp??

I believe chance said it best.  The dog was culled by a man that has culled better dogs than most people will ever have.  I don't remember how many females he bred.  You can't tell me that all those females were excellent dogs.  The way I breed excellent to excellent.  But its just like the high name horses and Tue mares they bred.  There's many horses carrying those studs name on paper that ain't worth the piece of paper its on.  They are marketed cuz somebody had the money to market Tue name 10 years ago and we think we still gotta have it.  I ain't good with words but to me the INTERNET=MARKETING. 

hell before the internet way way back in the stone age we did our marketing in the huntin dog mags . remember when you couldn't wait to get to the mailbox for your fullcry mag so you could find out what dog was doing what .

Whenever I see this topic I kind of laugh and cringe at the same time, but they are entertaining to read. All of the pros and cons seem to be the same, from hype to money, to blah blah blah, and it seems to come up a few times a month. Starting to wonder if the Mods should just pin it to the top so everyone doesn't have to keep posting the same things over and over again. lol. 

To answer your question hogaholicswife, the percentages come from a breeder keeping track of their line breeding. For example, the parents of a dog may be 45% Ben on the mom, and 55% on the dad. This gives you 100% which you divide by 2. This makes the pup 50% Ben on line bred percentage. But it is also half of its parents, which means it is 50% mom, 50% dad, and 50% Ben. You can keep track of other dogs in the pedigree of a pup or dog by dividing out the dogs in their line and keeping track of the percentages. This is line bred percentage and not the actual genetic similarity, to get that you would have to DNA test the dogs against the DNA of the dog you are trying to line bred. With line breeding percentages it is easy to come up with numbers that when combined equal more than 100%. Hope that answers your question. 
Anthony

Haha.

I am sitting on the couch with my right leg wrapped around my head under my left arm with a toe stuck in my ear.  I am currently utilizing my wife and childs fingers and toes to count on because I used up all of mine to try and figure out what %  Wetherford Ben I have in my registered Jersey Cow.   ;D

 J/K

Thanks for the breakdown brotha. Always wondered how they got them crazy %. 

HAHAHAHA

who owned the ben dog.and are they related to the dogs that ben jordan owns out of smithvill okla.

Ben was a grandson of Ben Jordans Henry. Clue Anderson owned his sire, Baumans Ben, and used him on cows. He also had a full sister to W. Ben named Jolene. Clue said they were both pretty nice on cows and both produced some good dogs. The Jolene female was in Clue's Cowboy dog's pedigree three times, I think. Ben Jordan said Henry helped about every female he was bred to. Mr. Jordan had a place where he had to drive cows 12 miles down a shale road and stated that Henry was one of  the few dogs that could make the trip then turn around and do it the next day.

bigo i live about 25 mins from ben but never really talked to him,but hunt with sum guys who know him and got dogs from him.i would like to go visit with some time he used to cowboy with sum of my famliy.im not much of a yellow dog man,but i know he has raised sum good dogs.didnt he get his first yellow dogs from rickey driver or am i mistaken.i have a buddy named ladale toon that said ben forgot more about dogs than most people know.

Henry was the first dog Ben got from Ricky Driver along with a female littermate. They were stud fee pups By Divers Leroy and out of Owens Lizz, which belonged to my Dad. People that don't belive cow dogs are tough and have no hunt and finding ability needed to have gathered cattle where you live just a few years ago when it was still open range. Ben and Ricky Driver are the best hands with dogs I ever saw, with Clue Anderson close behind.

i'll also add that for years mr. ben bayed, drove , and penned woods hogs the same  as cattle with his dogs.

you'll cull alot of high % weathorford ben dogs before ... nevermind , it ain't even possible . as i said on the other post they are too rough on cattle , or hogs . would you stand still and stay bayed if a dog was chewing on you after you stopped ?

Hahaha that question there is a whole nother thread brother!! Hahahahaha

Some folks prefer a rough pack of dogs. To each their own. U hunt ur way n others hunt their way n the same with their style of dogs

yep Charles...I know what type of bay style will produces the most hogs...but I like em rough...  ;D

If everyone liked the same exact thing in a dog there woudn't be but one dog in the world and everyone would be fighting over it. If you havn't seen every dog in a line you can't say they are all sorry, all you can say is, I didn't like the ones I've seen. Heck, over the years I've seen a bunch of mine I didn't like. I have given dogs to people that were too good to shoot but i didn't like and they loved them. I've had some that i loved and other folks wouldn't hunt if you gave the dog to them.

100% x2.......

X3, but I have to say, haters gonna hate. Lol
Anthony

long live yellow power I ve been quiet on this one so far thats al I have to say for now

Air, what hurts the line is are the people breeding the culls. Just because you pay 800 for pup doesn't mean it should be bred multiple times. I know a few that have been bred with never haveing seen a hog outside a pen. And I am not talking a bay pen dog. You may be doing things right,others are the ones I am talking about.

This happens more often than not...that is another thread ...

yes agree 100% that was my point in my last topicalong these lines
the hard part is not lieing to yourself and not thinking one has the best dogs notice a cull even if its your best dog popo :o

I can deffinately agree with that one Can. And I will also add that just because you have line bred dogs that work doesn't nessesarily mean that they should be bred. There are some that breed without fully understanding the genetics in the dogs that they have, thus producing dogs that are less than what they should be and not helping the line at all.
Anthony

Hogaholicswife-  TLS Delight is my dog Okefenokee Cowboy's mom, she cam of the Adams Ranch in Florida and Levone Sevilles in Texas got her and wanted Randy to register her FBMCO so he said breed her to 3 different BMC males and if she doesn't throw any odd colors then he would register her.  Then Sam Piper in Virginia got her and made some fine dogs over his breeding program.  Rathke's Reno was my dogs dad.  And to answer the fellow about why have we not seen another Ben, we have; their just not talked up so much but there are plenty out there and I have one.  Ole Cowboy is 12 and still a machine and has produced some fine dogs.

Was this when they first started the FBMCO?  I was just curious if she was some of the first ones to be registered as such and how she came about getting registered with them since she wasn't of 'those dogs' just a Florida dog with an obvious history but no paperwork.  Thank you.

Chance.... I've never been impressed with Weatherford's Ben bred dogs, the ones ive seen touting that lable were just too catchy for my taste.  I Can't stand a bay buster.  Now It makes sence why they were that way, learning that he was used as a catch dog.    Your statement has gotta be one of those truth hurts moments for allot of people.  Me..... I'm a fan of the truth, expecially when it hurts.  I wonder where the Yellow BMC world would be if weatherfords ben had truely been culled, and they had progressed without him in the picture?  Perhaps they could have turned out as good as these lesser known "workin' man's" Cur lines that throw "colored"  dogs.   ;D

Waylon

Hogahollicswife-  Had to be around 20-25yrs ago.  I got that info from Sam Piper who got Delight from Levon Sevilles.  I've got a buddy in floridia that is checking with the Adams to see if any body remembers Dellight and where she came from, did they breed her or she come from another state...  Wmwendler-  Most of the black mouths I have seen are not catch dogs, only catch when another dog catches.  My Cowboy dog is Grandson to Ben and he has bayed a many of a hog...

Chance.... I've never been impressed with Weatherford's Ben bred dogs, the ones ive seen touting that lable were just too catchy for my taste.  I Can't stand a bay buster.  Now It makes sence why they were that way, learning that he was used as a catch dog.    Your statement has gotta be one of those truth hurts moments for allot of people.  Me..... I'm a fan of the truth, expecially when it hurts.  I wonder where the Yellow BMC world would be if weatherfords ben had truely been culled, and they had progressed without him in the picture?  Perhaps they could have turned out as good as these lesser known "workin' man's" Cur lines that throw "colored"  dogs.   ;D

Waylon
[/quote]

i had a granddaughter to ben and dauther to yellowjacket, who just bay, no catch in her, but her offspring were catchy. i bred her to a dog out of pistolero x yellowjacket rose. the pups will be 8wk tomorrow and iv been in new mexico for the past 2wks and i noticed them today paying real close attention to the pigs in the pen. im hoping they turn out good for me. the sire to these pups and 5 more are real catchy if the hog is small enough. to each their own with dogs being catchy. i perfer catchy dogs. it is less work on the catch dog especially since i dont have a catch dog, but could lead to a dead dog or a lot of stiches.

hog runner......I didn't mean the ones I had seen were straight catch dogs.  They were just catchy which to me means baying too tight, putting teeth on a hog when its standing at bay, catching single hogs out of a group and busting the rest.  Just a general lack of finess and stock holding ability.  Thats what I've seen out dogs who carried the Ben lable.  Sure you can "bay" hogs like that but you will end up with allot of single hog bays when there was a group to start with......AND is it really a bay up with dogs like that?...... or is the hog just too busy defending himself to run off like he wants to.  To me a true bay up is when the hog (or cow for that matter) is standing relatively still and calm, paying attention to the dog but not defending itself from it.

A man can use those kind of catchy dogs for hogs and if he does not care about busting up groups of hogs and just wants to catch a hog or two.  But you cannot use them on cattle because busting up the group will get a dog culled quick.  Thats why you don't see many these "Ben dogs" in the back of a stock trailer with a few horses.

Waylon

I agree Waylon about a bay.  My Cowboy dog was trained on cattle as well.  I only use him on hogs and he does just like you say, just enough pressure to hold the hog still and calm until help arrives.  I live in GA where hog hunters are plentiful and hogs run and run but about 2 yrs ago Cowboy had 3 boars bayed alone until we got there and dumped the dogs to him and ofcourse they busted the bay and we only ended up catching one.  I don't like a catchy dog either but do want him to catch with other dogs when they arrive.

He sounds like a good one.

Waylon

Waylon, what kind of been dogs have you seen??? Not trying to be rude, but I have never seen a true Ben bred dog, work the way you are describing. What I have seen are dogs that are as rough as the animal they are chasing want to get. I would surely hope that my dogs would force a runner to stop rather than follow him until he wants to stop, because in this part of the country that would be never. The dogs I have seen pretty much work the same way on cattle as they do pigs, hunt them find them and group them if there is more than one. The only difference I have seen is with smaller hogs (0-100lbs) they will just catch and hold them. If a hog chooses to fight and try and break they will put teeth on them to keep him in his place, but if he wants to stand still they will loosen up and just bay him where he stands. I've seen my dogs bay from 2 to around 30-35 pigs and hold them in the pasture. While we do catch a lot of stag boars, a bay with multiple hogs is far from uncommon. As for who uses these dogs, when I began researching this line before buying one then several more. I went to some of the most experienced hunters and ranchers that I knew to see what they were using. What I found was that those that were serious hunters and had been doing it full time to help support themselves wanted a no nonsense dog that they could depend on day in and day out. While not all were Ben dogs a majority were. After having them for some time now I have seen the difference in those that hunt them and hunt other dogs. While I am NOT saying that this is the case in the responses to this post or others in this forum regarding this subject, I will say that from what I have seen are a lot of weekend warriors that either won't spend or don't have the money to spend on the dogs, so they knit pick and imagine any number of things to talk them down, wether it is about the dogs that they have seen or their account of the history of how this line came to be. The other thing I have seen are people claiming to have something that they do not. Had a guy on a hunt once that said he had a Ben dog, after asking how the dog was breed I figured out that the dog was a Ben dog because his dams great grand father on the dams sires side was supposed to be Ben bred, and blah blah blah. I guess I just think this subject has been beat to death already. If you don't like them don't hunt them, and if you don't like the price or can't afford it, don't spend it. Simple as that. A line that produced dogs that don't work would not have survived this long or be as sought after as they are no matter how good the hype was, and a pups will only cost as much as what someone is willing to pay for it. With the prices where they are, obviously some think they are worth it and like the way the dogs work. 
Anthony

Two things,
The Ben dog I personally had came either directly from Three rivers, or within a couple generations. It's not that they didn't work, just didn't work as well.

That's the second time I've heard someone say force a runner to stop rather than follow him till he wants to, if the working mans yellers that you've seen " followed a hog till he wanted to stop" then I hope you shot them. A dog don't have to get toothy with an animal all the time to make em obey, but in my experience, that's all the Ben dogs I've seen have in their arsenal. Granted, I haven't seen them all.

 There has to be a reason why none of the ole timers that had a hand in the making of Ben have any blood from the particular dog in there lines. Why was there not a single ben bred dog at the last cow dog trials in Oklahoma? There has to be a reasonable explanation right.

Yea cause it was a cow penning contest not a cow catching contest.lol

LOL winner winner chicken dinner ;D

Since I don't like to hunt on the weekend.....does that exempt me from being considered a weekend warrior? :angel:

I'm Not bashing any dogs just speaking plainly about what I've seen in them, and everyone is welcome to hunt what ever they feel like hunting.  A man could even hunt with something crazy like number 2zoos or hounds if he feelt like it and more power to him.  I really can't say exactly what kind of Ben dogs I have seen.  Other than the endless ads for weatherfords been bred dogs in the thrifty nicle classifieds, they reall do not seem to be all that popular around here.  So what I have seen could be an uncharacterisit subset.  I really cannot cay for sure.  But I do know for sure the ones I have seen work, the dogs whose owners used " High % Weathords Ben breeding" as the identity with which they chose to describe them,  did not impress me.  They were one dementional, very rough baying, got cut up allot, lacked finess, and tended to bust bays.  Sure those dogs caught hogs but unless the hog was solo to begin with, that caught hog was usally a stragler which originated from a busted bay.  

Its very possible that I've seen some good dogs that have some percentage of Weatherford's Ben in thier backround, yet that fact escaped me because it was not the Sole Identity of those dogs.  It is also possible that the dogs I hunt share some common ancestors with the line of dogs which produced weatherford's ben. (From way back)  I say this based on some conversations I've had with people knowledgeable on those blood lines.  There is also the possibility that they don't share that common ancestry.  Which, really it makes no difference to me becuase the dogs I hunt have a more recent ancestry which is what I am really interested in.  The point is I was never impressed by any YBMC ive seen work that carried the lable of Weathorford's ben blood.  The idea that said dogs identities were based off of a single individual dog, makes me skeptical from the start.  And like I said the so called weatherfords ben dogs I've see did nothing to erase that skepticism, they reinforced it.   Now come to find out, that dog was originally culled for a reason which I would also cull a dog for.  
Waylon

All im going to say is the been dogs were easier to get your hands on. Waylon me and you are not going to shuttle our dogs all over the country.  But my point is people who have been dogs more than likely have not seen any other TRUE blood lines work. Not trying to down grade anyone by saying that. There are some gentics out there in this world that are plum impressive. Ben is not one of them in my eyes.

Well then Waylon and Chance let me ask this, is it possible for a guy who is willing to put in the hard work over several years to take the dogs that are most often available for sale and through an honest eye and a sharp shovel, build himself a better strain of working dog?

I've seen that I only know enough to be offensive and not enough to be helpful in most cases, so I will from now on stay out of these discussions and stick to joking around.  :laugh:

Yes Tbob but you said it a sharp shovel. If I pay 300 plus for a pup and raise it to a year old its hard to get that 5 dollar shovel out of the barn.  But it can be done. I know a guy here locally who has culled dogs he paid 2500 for he ain't rich he just has moral and want resale the dog. but he has some jam up dogs. Now he is breeding them. And getting some really good young dogs. So yes it can be done.

Sure its possible t-bob.

But Just speaking for myself I would rather put the time and effort into getting to know the folks that allready have the better strains of working dogs, pay my dues with something other than cash, and earn the respect it takes to get ahold of dogs like that.  Then take those dogs I got from a good or excellent line, do my best to keep them that way, and stay gratefull to those to whom credit is due.  The old timers who made the great dogs what they are.

I would much rather do that than I would to take a set of mediocre dogs and try make them a better strain of dog.  Not saying the later way cannot be done, its just not my way.  The catch is, most people are impatient, they don't wanna pay the dues.  It seems like most people want the instant gratification of having thier OWN dogs. If and when they do get in on some good dogs, many of them are quick to give credit to themselves for the success of the dogs they own, rather than where it should be with the source of the dogs.  And then quickly alienate themselves from the source of said dogs and loose the resource/blood line they need to keep them going.

There is a stigma that the great bloodlines of dogs are hard to get ahold of, and held tight among those that have them.  And for the most part it is true.  But its not because the people that have great blood lines are stingy.  I'd say most dog men would welcome a person that was willing to earn thier respect, and get them started in some good dogs.  In the long run, that may represent a means of carring on the work that hes done over the years rather than letting it fade away as very often is the case.  And in the short run, its a means of creating a genetic pool of the same or very similar genetics that the old dog man can dip back into if he ever runs short on dogs and needs to do so.  The problem is finding that person whos patient and willing enough to pay the dues, earn the respect, and show he's interested in becoming part of that "community" of good dogs.  Its a commitment and said person has to realize he/she needs to become part of that "community" before they can get thier hands on said dogs.  And once they do be willing to accept the fact that having the dogs means they will be forever in debt to the person who they came from, the person who did all the hard work to get the dogs where they are.  What that "debt" means is treating the blood line with respect, always showing respect and credit to the source, not using the blood line to profit financially, and have a willingness to always help the ones that helped you get in the game.  Its a gift so to speak and should be treated as such.

Waylon

Thank you both for the responses, I couldn't agree more.

All this talk about this Ben would love to see a pic.  Anyone have a pic????

Cward and Wmwendler

Well put..... and sound advice from both of you last posts.

Shovels boyz keep em sharp with fresh dirt on the blades.   >:D

Tbob, did the dog you have come from three rivers, of something else?  Was it registered? I only ask to try and kind of pin point what kind of dog you had as far as breeding. And that was my point about a runner, while some will stop fairly quickly on their own others have no interest in stopping, and I don't have a use for a dog that won't stop one as quickly as possible. 
Anthony

Anthony, do you have these runner stopping dogs? If so, maybe you could bring them out sometimes, because I sure would like to see them work. I've got a few places where the hogs run like deer and no one has been able to "stop" them yet... only run the air out of them till they decide to bay.

X100 good post Waylon

whens the hunt I have some dogs that would love to stop a runner

Whenever you can get down around Houston, come on. I want every one we start stopped.

One thing I've learned in all the years I've hunted is this... if a hog wants to run, it's gonna run. Just hope your dogs the bottom to stick with it until it bays.

I've been fortunate enough to have hunted with hundreds of people and probably thousands of dogs all over Texas. Any time I see folks say their dogs shut down running hogs, I just want to see them in action.

I like to see good dogs work... especially where hogs are spoiled from being dogged many, many years.

well I defenantly am not worried about trying my dogs, they may turn the otherway when they see a tree or a slew coming from this desert but still wouldnt mind coming to play

your also welcome to come out this way and try to nose one up in the sand maybe we can do both some day I started hunting in east tx 15 yrs ago an I will be quick to tell anyone hunting is way easier on the hunter out in this country an posible the dogs to an yes they like to run here to but dont have all that brush and water to fool with just sand hill after sand hill and see a hot track turn cold in minutes

One thing I've learned in all the years I've hunted is this... if a hog wants to run, it's gonna run. Just hope your dogs the bottom to stick with it until it bays.

Thats it in a nut shell .  We was on a big spotted boar this morning .  The dogs hit soon as they hit the ground he went 1000 yds across and cotton feild threw one creek and then two more before he bayed and soon as he got wind of us he was headed for the hills and there was no stopping him .  Atleast my ole whimpy dogs could not get it done.  This is the third time this has happened with the same hog in the last three hunts over there.  He is big enuff to walk with your dogs once he gets far enuff from humans if he wants to and he is big nuff to cut the living hell out of them if he wants to ,  so far he aint messed up but he will just a matter of time .

I know the perfect bay dog is one that does all it can to stop a hog when it breaks...once the hog turns back to the bunched up hogs then this dog will windmill or set back and bay...it doesn't matter if it is one dog or 5 dogs...

I also have seen dogs that get close enough to the hog and talk to him...it seems that the hog understands that if he runs he will be hammered so he figures not moving is the safest thing to do...at least that is how I interpret the bay...this is my second choice of dogs...


I like grit and plenty of stopping power...one dog alone might bay and hold the bay and in rare cases 2 will hold a bay...but 3 dogs will put teeth on a big boar and 4 or 5 will hold a 3 hundred pound hog...with this style of dogs thick cover works in favor of the hog because he will out run the dogs...so busted bays do happen...these dogs work best in open woods or in the winter from about end of December and on until early April when the weeds are still down due to winter...these dogs do not get cut as bad because they catch a little while and let go but the hog will be exhausted by the time I get there...I have a choice with this type of dog...do I give the command to catch or do I tell them to get back...at the beginning I liked for them to catch and in that minute it took to get in and stick the hog I could have a dog cut and/or crippled or killed...so I started carrying a gun and always chose to shoot the boar...The only way the dogs caught recklessly was when they were just let out of the box and they would catch one close up when the dogs were fresh and chomping at the bit to get gone...sows and shoats were just caught...that is the style of dog I like...a little more grit will be OK as well...so eventually a running vest will be needed...that is the plan...

I once hunted with a good looking reddish gold colored bmc out of South Texas. This dog was culled because he busted up bays...he was a good hunting dog and he could stop a hog...he was the best stop dog I have seen...he and another dog had a big boar sitting on his jewelry because he couldn't run...

On the next hunt he winded and trailed a bunch of hogs and he busted the bay...but within and hour we caught 5 sows from the same herd with him relaying...caught them with him and an Airedale...they were all about 175 to 200 pound sows...he barked 3 times when starting a track and he could move one...the next time you heard the dog he was bayed solid nose to nose and the hog was backed up to a stump or tree taking care of her behind...he wasn't a long range hunting dog but he had a good nose for winding and trailing and he could find, bay, and catch hogs...Nugget was his name and was not a Ben bred dog...

bottom line...I like bay busters that catch hogs... ;D :)

The Cowboy dog I own is grandson to Ben, but he very well could have gotten some of his great genetics from TLS Delight his mom or his Dad Rathke's Reno which was owned by Ed Rathke.  It's just that the Ben dog has been advertised to death and it's very easy to refer to the dogs as the Ben line, but there have been a many of dog created by crossing out to various different strains.  I was told Delight was breed 14 times and she herself is credited with starting a fine line of dogs, it always aint the male...

The three rivers dog is out of Ramon and Gato or Chato or something and a bunch of yellow jacket and hornet

Not being snobby or mean brother, like I said it ain't that he is useless, Its just that I was given a shot at owning  some gyps that blew my mind and changed not just what I like, but what I'm aiming towards and flat out, the Ben dogs I've hunted with, even the ones who are successful hog dogs, just aren't where I'm headed anymore.


Please consider that performance wise, comparing MY Ben dogs to MY woodruff ones is like comparing labs to collies. It's really not fair becuase they are not the same thing. Maybe a better comparison is to say its like taking a great ballerina and forming an opinion of ballerinas based on her performance in a bull riding competion.

Waylon, no ill will from my side either, that question was more of an FYI for me, I like to keep track of crosses that are performing or not just for my own knowledge, was just curious as to how the dog was bred. 

Mike, yes, I know not every hog will stop and some may take your dogs miles to get, but what I am referring to is taking one set of dogs and running a pig a mile with nothing to show for it, and taking another set of dogs and stopping the same hog faster and actually getting the hog. Do I think that will happen every time, no, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened before. One place I hunt has been run with dogs for about 25 years that I know of, and another for 30, so running a place that has been dogged forever is nothing new, but it does make for some good work for the dogs. As for hunting in your area, maybe Airduster and I can team up, might take both of our dogs to run one of you places and catch a pig. Lol. J/k. I'm up for it, any excuse to kill pigs is a good one to me. 
Anthony

Anthony B...........ten-4....no hard feeling here either.

Your last post got me to wondering.  I wonder how many places haven't been hunted for a long time.  Most of the ones I know have been hunted from the begining since there were hogs there to hunt.  Shoot..I can think of some that were hunted before they actually had hogs there, if you know what I mean.

Waylon

Yea, I think about the same thing sometimes. I will only put down a time those places have been hunted for hogs that I know for sure, but before there where pigs there they were run for deer, yotes, and javalina. (before it was illegal) seems to me that they just switched to whatever game moved in during that time period, and trained dogs accordingly. Lots of huntin that's for sure.
Anthony