EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

My time has loosened up a little, and I’d like to share some of our hogdog philosophies with the honest hearted who are interested. I will tell you about just one of my Saltydogs, for sake of time. He is my newest stud dog, a gorgeous red leopard about 3-1/3 years old, representing about 14 generations of Saltydogs. His name is Saltydog’s Raunchy, and representing about 14 generations of culling hard, and genetic design. First, some back ground which touches a little on the philosophy behind how I view working dogs—my opinions only, but what works for me.

What Saltydogs do,, or how they work or what makes them tick----- for those who are truly interested, I have raised catahoulas for 22+ years. I have sold dogs all over the country, and internationally, with many repeat customers over the years, selling a few for cowdogs, a few for search/rescue, a few for just companions, but most for hogdogs. Why do these customers come back? —simple----    Because they like my dogs—they do what’s expected of them.

How do my dogs work? I was asked this “general” question on a different thread, and a question like that is impossible for me to answer, for this reason, which any real dogman can understand. A '”quick/easy” answer is a shallow thoughtless answer, in my book, and that’s not what I want to give here. As some of you have seen, I will not be prodded into a quick answer to something so deeply rooted in my kennel philosophies, just to satisfy the impatient. There are several major problems that are a key factor about the “how a dog works” question/answer deal.  Here’s a few brief factors that come into play of how “dogs work”, that most good dogmen easily recognize and identify with.

1) Dogs are genetically individuals—and every individual is different. Hypothetically, you can breed two of your best dogs, get a litter of ten puppies. Two of those pups will likely rise above the rest of the litter in ability and achievement. Six of the litter will make good dogs. Yet two will likely be under achievers/culls—not representing their breeding very well. It is nearly impossible to see this play out unless you keep the whole litter for 6 months and work with these pups and really observe their development. Perhaps you have a brother or sister, and as you grow up, it becomes evident many subtle differences.

The way I run my breeding program, is to recognize the traits I want to see expressed in my dogs---my idea of how my catahoulas go about the business of representing what the breed is all about, and through generations of breeding for those traits, my dogs become the rule, not the exception for those desired traits. I have genetically streamlined my dogs.

2) Pilot error. That’s right, the dog’s handler is a HUGE factor in a dogs development for better or worse. I have seen some handlers do all the wrong things and literally kill the working desire in a GOOD dog. People like this should not even be allowed to own a working dog. A good dogman knows how to bring out the BEST in a pup/dog. I know guys who have a yard full of dogs some one else threw away ”stupid dog won’t work, won’t look at a hog---blah-blah-blah”, yet in the hands of a real dogman, these “culls” bloom into great achievers.

3 Personality clash. I have seen good dogmen not get anywhere with an occasional dog. I have personally taken back a dog or two from trusted customers (whom I KNOW their handling abilities and have seen their dogs work fantastic), and placed the same dog with another customer, and the dog excels. Sometimes it’s simply a personality clash. Again, dogs are individual personalities, as are people.

So, the “canned generic wide open for argument” question of “How do your dogs work”, has quite a bit to it, and no simple answers. Boils down to “which dog do you want to ask about?”—remember, they are all individuals.

My current string of dogs vary, just like anyone else’s would. Some dogs will hunt close and some range way out. Some bay back a ways, yet some are gritty enough to go in and catch.  Wouldn’t we all  love to have a yard full of strike dogs, but not every dog is going to finish out as a jam-up strike dog. Just the way it is.

 My best dog is a VERY nice strike dog, and he is who I’ll spend a little time about—‘ole Raunchy. He was baying through the fence at 3 months old—not strong, yet enough to know he would be good some day. 4 months he was in the pen working with the other puppies—still not strong, but yet he was showing enough. He was about 8 months old when he was introduced to the woods---a little late for what I like, but never the less---------This pup was paired up with a jam up strike dog bitch my friend has (acquired from my kennel, an amazing story how this bitch was rescued, and turned into an incredible strike dog—another time on this story, though) The pup went out his first 19 times with his mother and had a hog caught 19 times. It was what we call a “honey-hole”—perfect for training woods dogs. Most of his early hogs were about 100 lb shoats—ideal size. A couple of the later catches packed some hard core size—350 LB range. (we do not use catch dogs)  Since then, this dog has gotten stronger and stronger in distance and try. His best run, according to our Garmin, he ran out of the tracker’s range, and half hour later run back in, on a running hog. 18 miles is what the Garmin recorded. He’s the kind of a dog, when you start a hunt, he hangs around for about 15 minutes, and starts to move out to about 300 yards, then on out to about 700-1200 yards. I do know, we have followed hunters through the woods by an hour or two, and pick up hogs their dogs missed. So goes quality. Small hogs, he will just snatch up. Bigger, he waits for support, then goes in. His name is Saltydog’s Raunchy. He is an own son of my old Saltydog’s Legbone and out of Saltydog’s Nevermind, who is a daughter to Saltydog’s Earl out of Saltydog’s Eva.  Earl goes back to the hardest knocking gritty strike dogs ever out of my kennel, and that’s the old Bozo/Haint cross. Raunchy represents the rangier built dogs—built for speed and endurance. He weighs 65lbs.

More later/another time.

Nice chunk of info there. Good read. Thanks. We have a Cat here that is the best dig we've hunted behind. I really admire the breed.

Now aren't you glad MIKE didn't terminate your membership here  rolleyes

The dog sounds like a real nice hog dog.  For three years old, he should only get better in every way, which is always a good thing. Let's see some pictures of ol' Raunchy.

Well, Mike can still terminate if he wants to. LOL!! >:D

I want to add, I started with catahoulas and chose to stay with MY blood lines, but makes no differences--I have hunted behind other breeds that have jam-up individuals, too. I've also hunted behind some aweful dogs, too, catahoulas or otherwise. Catahoulas are not created equal, the same as BMC, or plotts, etc.. They either will or they won't --it's the way it is. Cull hard, hunt hard, and have fun.

I can count the number of people on one hand I'd trust to get a catahoula from and pretty much know that I'll have a hog dog on my hands. 

What about pictures of some of your stock?

I will not be able to post pics for awhile, running too hard to take the time to get some decent pics. Sorry
 That's why my website is 2-3 years behind.

James moorehead??

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(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/gixxertrix/mother-god-meme.jpg)

Look who back!

Good info!

Yes, that be me. :)

Look who back!

Good info!
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Been to the post office and got my picture, I see. >:D

James,
Good information and I have know you for 15 years or so and have seen some good dogs that you have produced.
I might not have the best Catahoula's but they work for me and have some very satisified customers also.  Time is short and takes a long time to have some proven stuff but still cull hard, hunt hard, and enjoy what you do.

Thanx for the kind words Doug. I've heard you have some very jam-up working dogs yourself. Enjoy them, that's what its all about.

Glad to see you decided to hang around, you'll meet some good folks on here and thanks for the info. I still have to call you back one day been a little hectic around here.

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Saltydog,

Do you linebreed within your program?  I find it interesting that you speak of so much variance within the dogs you produce...and even in mentioning those within your own pack.



I too breed my own dogs however strickly for my own use, and granted producing good dogs is my number one goal but consistancy within the progeny runs a VERY close second.  I do keep my entire litters for the purpose of evaluating, yet those that don't conform to my personal standards and hunting style simply don't make the cut.  Perhaps if selling pups was my intent, I would view things differently.

Saltydog not trying to knock you or your dogs. Buy the quote Bryant just quoted is a big statement to,me also. I breed dogs with no intent to sale. Keeping whole litters then culling to what im looking for. Then having a set of dogs that all match. what I have seen with people selling pups and dogs is they forget what they are looking for in there dogs and start fitting doctor what people want. So if you like a dog loose and long range you will not cull a rough short range dog you fit that dog with someone who needs a dog like that. If thats the case then there is no standards in your cats just another dog.

Bryant, You and CW both have very good points, in which any reasonable dogman would relate to. Yes, I DO incorporate line-breeding. Goes back to my horse breeding days. Horse genetics and dog genetics are very close in how they express themselves in off spring. The best you can do is breed dog A to dog B and hope for the best--thus a starting point. Genetics will express it's self for better or worse, and you, as a responsible breeder get to make the next generation's decisions. And yes, keeping the litter back to evaluate what YOU like in your program is what it's all about. If a dog does not pass muster, that does not mean it's a bad dog--it means the specimen will not work for what I need to breed back in to my program. Now that same dog might be just exactly what some one else likes in THEIR program. So place your pups. But be responsible enough to cull suspect pups--ones with the genetic markers for blindness/deafness--these markers are often ignored by irresponsible breeders, so they hurt the breed. You yellow dog folks have the same situation, just a different set of problems prominate in YOUR favorite breed. All breeds have room for genetic improvement.

CW, I can say this much about "just another dog" generalization, that would be true in a "new" breeding program--beginners who have not had enough time to make a genetic impact on their program. However I have watched undesireable traits diminish and disappear with in MY lines, over the years. I have also watched desireable traits come on stronger and become more the rule than the exception within my dogs.  I always am amazed at the next generation of pups to hit the ground.

On the genetic time line, catahoulas are a brand new breed in the Dog World. NALC was the first totally dedicated association to register and promote "cleaning up the genetics", and they began about 1970-71-ish. Prior to that Stodhill registered some in the '60's. But NALC really cleaned up the standards. To me, that was a big obstacle out of the way for catahoulas. Catahoula genetics are very loose, as you can check out other bloodlines, and most seem to have their own "look". The "Fe-Fe" breeders who breed just for color are the catahoula breeds worst enemy, IMHO. That's a whole new topic in it's self.

If you were to look at other dog breeds--let's say dobermans or rottweillers, or German Shepards, they have been breeding for desireable traits for 400 + years. Catahoulas are just beginning this genetic journey. Genetisist say that it take 10 years to breed out one bad trait in an animal--and I believe them. It takes one poor decision and one breeding to breed IN a bad trait. Then, let's deal with "thow-back" traits. So breed responsibly and always breed UP instead of DOWN, the best you know how.

Know your dogs. I can run my pedigrees back into the mid '60's. That's valuable information.How far back do YOU know your bloodlines?Breed responsibly and enjoy the results

I have lacys but I like your point of view saltydog. My grandpa had cats for years and walkers and he breed best to best ad just because a pup didn't fit his personal preference didn't mean it didn't fit some other hunters. Very good comment.

welcome back saltydog , there are some really good people here , we luv dogs , hogs , and good storys , thanks for your feedback , I also have a catahoula , top notch        I dont have much knowledge in line breeding process but have been studying and surfing the web for info , Ive done a lot of research on my bulldogs pedigree  trying to find a method to there madness, hes very closely line bred on both sides for generations [ which I know in a hog hunters world dont mean squat ] but I also know my bmcs I have are also linebred for several generations by a friend of mine , one of my females is 6 yrs old , shes a top notch dog , hunts close to medium range , she will stay with one for miles , she bays loose unless its a small one , I would like to keep craigs line breeding program going , which there not papered just hardworking bmc dogs anyway she has had pups before which now are around 2 yrs old , a couple are really turning out ,is it to close to breed a son back to his mother ? also can brother and sister be bred ? or is this to close ,  any knowledge in this area would be a big help    thanks

Thanx, Lacyman, I appreciate that.

Bob, no simple answers dealing with this sort of thing. A man is best off to aquire a pretty good understanding of how that all work. I would recommend getting a genetics book on dogs. If you are into horses, the gentics are very similar, and do a search for Larry Thornton, and check out some of his books. Larry's will bring you up to speed.

Ive tried to stay outta this but the above quotes raised some questions for me.  Now i do not have a breeding program or a line of dogs per say.  BUT... I know enough about breeding to know that if i dont have a "plan" so to speak i wont ha ve aline of consistant dogs.  If you like loose dogs and the occasional rough one comes along and you pass it to someone else instead of culling then "your line" can still be bred and now there are rough dogs out of your line.  It seems to me that if you culeld these and bred for genetic traits as you seems to say you do then your line would not vary so much.  Not to sound insulting here but the above quotes are a little contradicting when you talk about breeding for genetics and not for "fro fro" dogs.

Seems to me your talkin in circles.  and based on the posts you have posted are trying to convince people about your dogs.  Since you were so intent on bringin up others dogs with the YOU comments ill tell ya.  Ive got a couple out of different lines that i cant trace their genetics, I know what they can do and the few ive bred if the pups werent what was expected they got culled not passed down the road.  

Not meant to be argumentative just point out the inconsitancies in your ONE post.

I don't think your quite getting what he meant, I could be wrong in this but what I take his statement as would be he does not breed the dogs that do not have the traits that he is looking for. He picks the dogs out of his line that show the traits he wants to keep going and breeding for in his line example being long range and rough if the dog does not show those traits but does show good traits at being a little looser baying and medium range he may have a client or fellow hunter looking for those traits so instead of culling the dog he passes it to.someone looking to breed for those traits,while he still only picks the dogs out of the litters that show the traits he wants to see in his breeding program at his house continuing his name in the dogs. He has already said if they don't look genetically sound that they will not be passed on they will be dealt with accordingly. If your running a breeding program and a true breeding program for good hunting dogs your not ever going to do any good unless you can somewhat adapt to.different hunting styles while keeping the core program focused on great dogs and great genetics. 

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Yeah i got that.  but what i dont get is if he is breeding his line for a purpose wouldnt having dogs out of his line which do not meet his "standard" be passing a cull?  That is if my definition of a cull is correct as in one that does not meet the standards/requirements of its owner?  I know one mans trash is another's treasure but if i am breeding my dogs i would only allow dogs to leave my yard that fit my requirement.  Otherwise i would be selling culls so to speak.

But i guess i need to clarify my point a little.  If you a breeding for genetic traits you are isolating a trait be it rough loose color range etc. and attempting to breed either closer or away from that trait.  If you allow dogs which to do meet the standard you are looking for (culls for the program) to be passed around your "line" is not defined.  Now if all your looking for is a dog that will hunt and just because it dont hunt the way you like but still hunts i guess then you have met your standard.

Is that a better way to put it?

Hog snathcers says it well.

Rdjustham, Thanx for your questions. I'd like to say, the term culling can be a pretty general term--meaning different things to different folks. To me, culling means not using a particular dog in my program-and that dog gets placed with someone who likes him better than me. You might say that dog is "my"cull, or you might say he is second best in my yard. Nobody in their right mind EVER sells their best dog(s). Kind of like a contest--there can be only 1 winner. The rest are losers. No shame in that, if all the losers gave their best, yet they are losers. That's the tricky part of breeding--finding the best of the best to keep in your program. The dog you deside is a cull, might really be a great dog. But he's lacking in some small way, according to who makes that decision--you. Don't mean he's not a great dog, just there is one greater that you prefer. Why can't some one else use that dog you decided against?

Another slant--- When there is a genetic problem, culling means euthanasia.

Yet Another for instance, If one day I come to the conclusion I simply have too many dogs to feed, I'll make an "A" list and a "B" list. I will cull down, choosing the dogs that best fit the profile I am breeding for. I hope this helps clarify where I'm coming from some what.

I understand what your saying, and like he said he's continued to breed for the traits he looks for. Unless your keeping every pup from every litter your not going to know exactly how they all turned out and if they are all exactly up to the standards you expect but if you sold a pup to someone who hunts older dogs that do not hunt the same way but they please their owner and the pups learn to adapt to that hunting style and excel at it then its hard to say you haven't done a good job working toward breeding good dogs.

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I THINK ITS LIKE SHOOTING, MAKE THE TARGET  SMALL AND YOU SHOOT BETTER. I FYOU ARE SHOOTING AT A BASKETBALL SIZED BULLSEYE YOU CAN HIT IT BUT THAT DONT MAKE IT A GREAT SHOT

Saltydog,

I understand what you're saying, although I respectfully disagree.  To me a standard is a standard...be it color, temperament, disposition, hunting style or baying ability.  You speak of the Catahoula standards as set forth in the NALC and I must assume you are speaking mainly in terms of conformation.  When I make a breeding, I'm also looking for a standard in the way my dogs perform....a certain way they must act in order for me to say they meet my "standards".

I understand the fact that if the dog doesn't meet my personal standards, it may meet someone else's and be a good dog to them.  Unfortunately, I'm not into breeding to suit anyone but myself and so my evalutaion of each dog is done with the same basic criteria.

This is a silly and very hypothetical scenario, but say there was a client who liked dogs with a crooked leg and you just happen to have some pups born with crooked legs.  They may not suit you, but over there is a guy who they will suit just fine.  Do you pass them along, even though they don't meet your standard?  Now that's a silly analogy, but do you see my point?  In addition, when placing pups out of a line where there tends to be great diversity, how can one be sure an owner is getting the type dog he/she desires?

Not trying in any way to argue or anything like that...I just enjoy learning about how others go about their programs.

Bryant   

Another point i was getting at is the "trait" of your line.  When asked how your dogs hunt you couldnt answer because each one is different.  What is the trait your after since you are breeding hunting dogs.  Right?  If you ask the guys here who have bred their dogs for years and years like bryant, mike, noah, txhogsanddogs they can tell you how their lune hunts.  They know because they understand what they are after and like you said you find a place for the dogs that dont fit in your program.  In my opinion if i were to seriously start breeding my dogs i wouldnt let one out of my yard till i could tell you eith absolute certainty how they were gonna hunt period.  Granted every litter has an odd ball or two but if you have had your line since the 60s you wouldnt have made a big deal about it.  I have my opinion based on your posts and ill "peddle" down the road now.  Best of luck figuin out what ya got.

Bryant, respectfully, What do you disagree with? Seems we are saying the same thing--no?

I will clarify:
 I did not go into what the NALC creed/standards are. Yes you are assuming. Read their standards--they ARE good, and an excellant starting point for anybody wanting to start up.

Also, all I said, is that my dogs, like anyone elses, are individuals and therefore vary in their individual abilities, and I mean according to me and how I look at them. I never stated how MUCH those variations might be. You seem to be seeing this according to what "vary" means to you--perhaps? I have never implied that my approach is the best, or only way. I respect my fellow dogmen and their approach.

I NEVER breed dogs to suit someone else. I breed them to suit me. I sell off every dog that is not the best according to my genetic goals. People buy my dogs because they like what they are all about, and that suits them fine.

Yes, I pass on dogs that do not meet my standards, as long as they are genticly sound. No one in their right mind sells their BEST dogs--rather, they sell their second best. You may drive out of my yard with a dog I culled, thinking to yourself  "I can't believe he sold this one over the one he kept!" We all see different things, looking at the same thing. One man see a beautiful corvette, and his buddy sees the beautiful gal driving it. It's a great package, but means different things to different people--because we are individuals.

 I can't keep them all--wish I could. If I could not sell them, my kennel is staggnated and not paying for itself.  I can't keep everydog that was born in my program.  KILL every dog that didn't make my cut does not make sense and is inhumane. Why shouldn't someone else benefit from these good dogs? Those dogs will benefit THEIR program. It will never affect MY program again, unless I sought that particular dog out and bred to it. Whatcha think? :)

[quote author=Saltydog Catahoulas link=topic=53801.msg368013#msg368013 date
 I can't keep them all--wish I could. If I could not sell them, my kennel is staggnated and not paying for itself.  I can't keep everydog that was born in my program.  KILL every dog that didn't make my cut does not make sense and is inhumane. Why shouldn't someone else benefit from these good dogs? Those dogs will benefit THEIR program. It will never affect MY program again, unless I sought that particular dog out and bred to it. Whatcha think? :)
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If i came to buy a pup from you at just weened how SHOULD it hunt?  No matter what dam and sire!  IE how do your dogs hunt?

Simple straight forward questions.

It would be nice if there was only "one" trait to breed for, but you misunderstand, there are many traits we breed for. And yes, dogs are individuals--they will vary in their perfomance, to different degrees. If you want a very general answer, it's pretty pointless, and about anyone can figure that one out.

Who said I couldn't tell you how my dogs hunt? I chose not to, considering the atmosphere the question was asked.

Respectfully, You seem to assume alot. I said I can trace my bloodlines back into the '60's. I didn't say I had my bloodlines since the '60's. I've been raising MY lines for near 23 years now. Let's not "embelish" what I said, please. I know what I got in my dogs, thankyou. I'll take the luck, though. Best wishes to you peddlin' down the road. :)

SALTY, YOU HAD THE CARDS STACKED AGAINST YOU FROM THE GET-GO. ALOT OF ITS JUST GOOD FUN,I THINK, RAZZIN BUT THE SPOTTED DOGS ARE THE UNGLY STEPCHILD HERE. I WAS A CATAHOULA MAN FOR OVER TEN YEARS MYSELF. CATAHOULAS, AND THEIR BREEDERS SEEM TO HAVE A STIGMA AS BREEDING FOR COLOR, AND ALOT OF THAT HAS MERIT. THEN YOU WERE EVASIVE ABOUT YOUR DOGS AND MORE BELLS WENT OFF. THEN PARTS OF YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD CAN BE TAKEN AS BREEDING WITHOUT MUCH ZEROING IN. THEN THE "CULL" WORD WAS USED AND THATS DYNAMITE AT A GAS STATION. IM CHAUKIN IT ALL UP AS A "LOST IN TRANSLATION" KIND OF DEAL. ?

If i came to buy a pup from you at just weened how SHOULD it hunt?  No matter what dam and sire!  IE how do your dogs hunt?

Simple straight forward questions.
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Again, RDjustham, a very general question. If you were in my yard to buy a puppy, the most important thing for you to ask IS how do the parents hunt, what's their disposition, what's their conformation like, blah blah.

Given that the parents hunt well enough by most standards, and other questions answered meet your standards, and you buy your pick of the litter, the rest depends upon you, as a handler. The blood(genetics) runs true--always does in the good lines. It's up to you to bring out the best of those genetics. Genetics is giving you the package that will DEVELOPE into a dog similar to his/her parents. The rest is environmental. For instance, if a handler takes his puppy and takes him to the woods once a week when he's 6 weeks old allowing the pup to gain experience, he will be way ahead of the other guy who bought a litter mate, and stuck him on a chain until he is a year old, then takes HIS pup to the woods. It ain't rocket science which pup is going to be the better woods dog.  This is an example of two littermates--genetics are the same, yet their environment dictates how the outcome comes together.

There is no magic bullet answer. The best we can do is generally, my dogs all work great. Generally, this dog goes 1200 yards and checks in every 45 minutes--blah blah. But none of that matters so much. I have seen so called dog handler wreck a jam-up strike dog in 5 minutes. Take that same dog and put him in a good handler's hands, and the dog charges hell with a glass of water.

 So, RDjustham, can you answer the question, hows "that" dog work? It all depends on a lot of things that in the end, doesn't it.

I have had people ask if I guarantee my dogs to hunt. The answer is, yes, I guarantee my dogs to hunt-----for me. I can't guarantee they will hunt for you, though. I do not guarantee a handler's ability. Dogs are great judges of character. (I guarantee my dogs to be genticly and vet sound, though)

saltydog... I agree with you on selling the culls to hunters who do not care to breed dogs...when I bred mtn curs for almost 20 years my culls were pretty good hog dogs...but the cream rises to the top and when line breeding and inbreeding the line tends to purify pretty quick when selecting correctly...Breeding the right dogs is half of it and the other half is selecting the best pups for hunting and breeding...there can be compromising at the beginning...and there shouldn't be much or any compromising once you are in the second generation and for sure not in the third generation...I never really cared what color as long as it wasn't white or too much white trim...I did place high importance on nose, hunt, intelligence, conformation, stopping ability, sticking to the track and putting a hog on the other end of those tracks... and I placed a high importance in the ability to find a hog...and another thing...when someone asked me what type of dog I bred I didn't have to think about it because it was burned in my brain...don't get me wrong...I would spend months and months on trying to decide who I was going to breed and why...

the pups were on a point system as to their progression and this point system was a major contributor on my decision making...and it was very important to me to know at what age all this happened...because I wanted hog dogs that at a year of age were hunting with my best dogs...they didn't have to be finished just hunting hard and finding hogs...


it is near impossible in getting consistency even with line breeding because some of the dogs in the pedigree will not be related and like you mentioned earlier...there is quite a bit of variance within some of our hunting breeds...so some of these inconsistencies will tend to show up...but one must breed the pups that carry the traits that we are striving for...I will compromise a little on color and size but not on the other traits...

THE CREAM RISES TO THE TOP...

apparently your program is working for you... so keep on keeping on...

Welcome aboard...

I have had people ask if I guarantee my dogs to hunt. The answer is, yes, I guarantee my dogs to hunt-----for me. I can't guarantee they will hunt for you.
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Might have read this wrong and am not wanting to take this statement out of the intended context.

Did this mean if someone purchases a pup from you that does not perform to their intended standard..you would not be susceptible to taking it back for replacement or refund?

Just curious also what the average price per pup you require? 

Hi Ed, I don't mind some razzin', do a little myself. I give honor to the yellow dogman, if they give me honor. I do not care what another dogman says so much about his dogs so much as what his dogs say about themselves. Heck I probably trust a few yellowdog breeders better than some catahoula breeders I've run into. But I've seen some sorry yellow dog breeders, too. There is good and bad in all breeds. My take is a good dog needs to do what he's bred to do.

Example: I am color blind until I see all the traits I breed for expressed in the pups I keep. Now if both pups are equal so to speak, and I have to chose the best one, he may have color, or he might be the solid one--I do not care. My current litter, for instance, has 3 solids and 4 of the most drop dead gorgeous red leps you ever feasted your eyes on. I need a male and a female from this cross. Three of the leopards are sold off, and my pick of the litter is a SOLID liver male pup--so he's my new "prospect". He shows me what I'm looking for. One red lep female outshined the rest of the females in the litter, so she's my new "prospect". I could give a rat's behiney about the leps being prettier. Pretty to me is my catahoulas stretching a big boar 6-ways to Sunday. That's my favorite color.

Not zeroing in--just the opposite--that's why I have a breeding program. The "cull" word. We're big boys, no?

Evasive, maybe so it seems. I did not care for the atmosphere--I can smell a no win situation. Nuff said.

  It's not my mission to "convert" anyone on my ideas or merch--I could care less. Some honestly are interested in what makes my kennel tick, and I'm fine to share my viewpoints. It's just my viewpoint. Thus this thread.

Much wisdom, Reuben. Happy hunting, Sir.

WHAT I MEANT ABOUT CULLING WAS PEOPLES IDEAS ABOUT IT, NOT ABOUT TEARS IN EYES

I BET WEVE ALL BEEN DRUNK AN MET SOMEONE THAT WE WERE JUST BOUND AND DETERMINED TO DISLIKE AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY AGREED WITH US WE FOUND SOME LITTLE THING TO ZERO IN ON AND DISAGREE. I KNOW I HAVE. A COUPLE TIMES THEY TURNED OUT TO BE FRIENDS.

Might have read this wrong and am not wanting to take this statement out of the intended context.

Did this mean if someone purchases a pup from you that does not perform to their intended standard..you would not be susceptible to taking it back for replacement or refund?

Just curious also what the average price per pup you require? 
[/quote]

That's correct. I cannot guarantee any handler's ability, and I do not want damaged goods back. And I sure do not play the "Lemme try your dog for a month" deal, either. A good handler will bring out the best in a dog, and won't need such guarantee anyways. I CAN guarantee my dogs to be vet sound, which includes genetic soundness.

I do not discuss prices on a public forum. Contact me privately if you wish to. Thanx for your interest. :)

Well said, Ed, on both your comments.  ;)

I'll start by saying I should probably just keep my mouth shut and move on. But i am having a real hard time finding a definitive goal or standard that you've bred toward for 23 years as far hunting style of YOUR line.  Which is fine if it suits you, i can understand you not wanting to commit your dogs into a category, and push potential customers away if that catagory is not their style. I'll be very straight forward and tell you, after looking over your site i was very tempted to call to find out more about that Legbone line. But after all the smoke and mirrors, lack of distinction i kinda feel like a phone call would be just as fruitless. Although i am still curious, under favorable conditions, knowledgeable handle, and ample opportunity. How could i expect a pup i get from your line to develope and hunt?

im pretty sure i asked this one.  earlier and i got some BS answer.  good luck, but from what i hear i would get with Mr Mason if i ever wanted a leopard dog. 

snake oil - some folks are convinced it'll cure them, others have learned their lesson, still others are skeptical enough to know better, and some are just flat wise enough to know better all along...

Let's keep positive.

Corey, Seems you missed my points. It's like a book. You have to open it to see what its about. If you prefer to judge it by just looking at the surface, well you never will know. I can't please everyone, and don't intend to.

RD, you have your right to your opinion. Sorry you think what I have to say is BS. I too have my opinions about you, yet I'm not dissing you. I discriminate who I would sell dogs. So let it be.

Salty.. I more interested in reading action than mystery. I just put it on the shelf to gather dust. Good luck to you with your program.

That's what this thread is about--"de-mystifying". Sorry you didn't get it. Thanx for the well wishes. Happy hunting. ;)

really based on what?  the fact ive called you out?

I m fairly new to the forum but I original got on to talk hunting dogs and didn't expect to see all the bickering is there something I m missing about this thread or the group involved that I'm missing the story about? Seems like a lot of Hub Bub for a hog dog forum. Lol lets get back to killin hogs and talkin about our dogs not our lines and what's better in ones opinion over another.

Do mind explaining what you mean, RD?

Can u tell me how saltys uncle guido hunted or was he one of your "culls" i looked into my nalc file and that is the salty dog that was in the ped.

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Hopefully you can see this old ped.

Salty I think what most people are trying to figure out is if you are your typical dog breeder. Fitting homes. There are alot of people that would like to find a true cat breeder that has culled HARD and had a standard in his dogs. The good dog breeders I know you will never buy a dog off these guys and if one does sale one it ain't cheap. These guys have a GROUP or dogs that all hunt and work with the same style take any dog out of the kennel and the dog will get the same job dome as the ones left in the kennel. MOST people who sale dogs never get a group of dogs like this do to fitting the dog to a home for money. If you were that guy that people were looking for I think everyone here one have jumped on it.  I take it alot of people are not seeing it in your post about your dogs. There are alot of good things said about the yellow Ben dogs and alot of bad things said about the yellow Ben dogs. The reason they are very inconsistent do to the almighty dollar  . If I pay lots of money for a pup and raise it up and it don't work its hard to cull it.
Not trying to knock you in anyway just saying its the way it looks.

Amen!

Quit worrying bout other folks dogs. If your skeptical don't buy from them. Other than that what business is it to you!

Honestly folks. If I'm lookin to buy a dog from a "breeder", I ask for references if I don't know the guy. If he gives them to you, check them out, if he doesn't, move on.

That's the beauty of the Internet.  You have all this information at your hands, why wouldn't someone decipher through the BS in the search for a better dog.  If you're not after something better, then essentially you have stopped your progress and are moving backwards.  Sometimes alil argument goes a long way in dispelling rumors, myths, and BS.  That's why it's a public forum.

Could be right. Just seems to me...most people responding on this thread at this point are just pickin at this point. Lookin for an argument. Anyway, it is a public forum, do as you please I guess.

Yes Cward, I hear ya. Don't fall into that trap--it's a no-win situation. From my viewpoint, I see alot of folks who want a "magic bullet", a "super dog" And want a whole kennel full of them. Don't we all.

So question: where is this so called alledged "standard" for hogdogs everyone is trying to pin me down on? Where is it written? What is it? Anybody?

This so called "standard concept", I SEE some folks are hung up on. I've yet to see anyone explain what THE standard is--that EVERYONE can agree on. Ask 100 folks what THE standard is, and you will get 100 versions of what THEY think.

Again, I started this thread for those who are truly interested in how my program works as well as my approach to MY standards. I breed for what I want, not for the public. If someone wants to purchase my over flow, and they think close enough to me and my ideas, they will like my dogs and do very well with them. The few that want to take exception and keep challenging me that I'm wrong about my approach, they will not get along with my dogs. I can NOT see the logic of somebody trying to prove me wrong on my own thread about what my views are about MY project. Makes no sense to me, yet I will stay polite.

 I breed my dogs according to what I want MY dogs to do. My dogs are proven, to most that try them. Some who tried them and didn't like them moved on because their ideas and mine were different. Most are very satisfied. This thread is about What makes me, "Saltydog Catahoulas" tick--some of the philosophies I follow. Some folks get it just fine.  Others just don't see it. A few want to get "people aggressive".

It's about like the very basic general question" how do your dogs work?" Which dog? They work phenominal, if you like what I like. So a pointless answer to a pointless question. "Standard" falls into the same category. There is no easy one answer fits all to either questions. Not one of these guys pushing this line of thinking has bothered to email me or give me a pm or call--so much for real interest..

Kevin, if you are really interested, get ahold of me---privately---I do not conduct business on a public forum.

I will be off the forum for awhile, please, people, don't take it wrong. I'm just busy. Happy huntin' and tie 'em tight! ;)

not at all.  your talking in circles a d dancing around legit questions that most people would answer when they spent as much time as you describe in breeding and developing and maintaining their line.  All anyone wants is  straight answers outta ya.  hate to say it but your comin off as a dog peddler.

and since you didnt reply to another question, ill assume your opinion of me is, hard headed, honest and a straight shooter.  thanks  ;D

Your dogs work phenominal if I like what you like...

So, what do you like?

RD, sorry you can't "get it". I've explained enough. Dog peddler? I suppose you missed the couple times I mentioned I could care less about selling dogs, I breed for what I want. Why don't you read what I've said, not what you want to hear.

Scott, read the thread.

i tried but got dizzy from the circles and sick from the smoke inhalation.  ;D

MAN JUST END THIS AND SAY WHAT YOU BREED FOR, IE. A ROUGH DOG, LEG, HUNT MED TO CLOSE, LOTS A BOTTOM ETC.

again...i think this is all anyone has been asking you.  If you didnt want to answer, dont...just doesnt look good to talk in circles.

you talk about your standards and how you like a dog to hunt...but you havent explained either one

i cant help but keep coming back to this one to see if anything gets answered.

I reread 1st post, I am sorry i didn't notice it sooner.

Hey Ed, Let's hear about YOUR breeding program?? You too, RD, lets see what YOUR credentials are?


I don't have time for this debating, Just read the thread if you want, like it or hate it--I don't really care. You don't like the way I do things, sorry. Like Mike likes to say "don't come back" 

I DOINT HAVE A BREEDING PROGRAM.

What I thought. Do Own a dog?

I've got some breeds that I've been working on for a while now... Don't know if I'm doing it right or not though... LOL! I think something may be missing... They should be able to hunt though, right??? LOL!

(Just figured I'd break the ice here man... getting thick!!!)

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All in good fun...  ;) ;D >:D

Salty, I'd like to see some current pics of your dogs if you don't mind posting them up?

I think they will work as big as them red things are just give him some hobbles hog should be caught and on its way back before you get to the bay lmfao

I BREED CATAHOULAS FOR 10 YEARS OR SO, NOT TO SELL THOUGH, AN THEY WERENT HIGH POWER OR ANYTHING SPECIAL BUT WHEN I DID, I BRED FOR GRIT, AN LEGGIE DOGS THAT COULD DO IT FAST AND ALL DAY. BRED FOR A BLOCKER HEAD, NOT THE THIN NOSED DOGS. IF ANYONE ASKED I TOLD THEM, NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE AROUND TO HEAR.  I WASNT VAGUE. NOW ALMOST EVERYONE IN THIS SITE KNOWS THAT DOGS ARE LIVING CREATURES AND NOT ROBOTS SO YOU DONT ALWAYS GET EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF A PAIRING, BREEDING DOGS AINT LIKE BAKING A CAKE, 1 PT THIS AND 3 PARTS THAT AND WAALA. YOUR BEING VAGUE AND EVASIVE. AN I WAS TRYING TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, AND BE NEIGHBORLY AS YOUR AN OKIE, AN IVE SEEN SOME OF YOUR DOGS YEARS AGO AT BAYINGS, BUT YOU COME AT ME? KID GLOVES ARE OFF.

Hey Ryan, now THAT's taking "outcross" to the limits!! LOL!!

I'm not evasive. Just because YOU don't understand what I've said does not make me vague or evasive. Put your kid gloves back on, I'm just jabbin' back at you guys a little. "Why don't you just end this and answer my question--Do you own a dog??" Well do ya? it's a simple question. LOL!! >:D

I FEED 6 DOGS

NOW ITS YOUR TURN

I got 14 gravy-lappers, 7 are puppies. It beats the days when I HAD a few more. Quite a few more, that is. LOL!!

I HAVE RUSSIAN BEAR DOGS, THEY RUSH AROUND THE CORNER AND BEAR DOWN ON A BISCUT

YOU COUD OUT CROSS TO MY DOGS AND HAVE SOME BISCUITS TO GO WITH THE GRAVY

Ed, you think we could come up with enough bucket lids for the gravy?

IM NOT SURE I KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. IM OUT, MY WORK WEEK IS DONE AN THE SUNS GONNA BE  SETTING SOON SO IM GOING TO RUN SOME MIXED UP RUSSIAN BEAR DOGS TONIGHT. ILL GET WITH YOU NEXT WEEK ABOUT THE OUTCROSS.

5 pages and im just now posting? wow...  rolleyes

Hey Ed, Have a great time hunting this weekend. Gravy on a bucket lid for a pan---for the redneck dog that has everything. ;)

I feel like I'm in high school again reading all this lol. Cmon guys, put your big boy pants on stop asking a question that we all know the man isn't going to answer "or that he already answered and it just went over our heads"and go catch some pork  ;D

yeah i bred some dogs here and there.  and ill be a man and tell you how they hunted.  JUST LIKE EXPECTED.  Short range gritty catchy dogs!  And i should have another litter on the way, which WILL be short ranged hot nosed ROUGH dogs.

Now its your turn.

How do YOUR dogs hunt?

" bred some dogs here and there" Wow.
RD, you didn't tell us squat about your breeding program. Imply that the few dogs you DID raise were all exactly alike---what I figured---B.S..

Now answer the question--tell us about your breeding program. Or can't you answer a simple question?

Here, RD, I'll help you out a little---here's an example:

rdjustham and salty dog,


Don't y'all think the bickering has pretty well run it's course....   It's pretty clear that neither of you care for each other, yet you both continue to bait each other.

A some dude keeps on "coming at me" stirring up BS and attacking my character/integritty, are you going to deny me defense? Let HIM answer some stupid questions for a change--let's hear why he thinks he's some kind of an expert. Or are you siding with him like administrator Mikey does? I'd be just as proud if you terminated my membership. The smart ones on this forum know how to reach me, if they want. It was a mistake joining your forum, sir. But now that I'm here, I'm going to defend myself.

Mikes done told you he don't terminate membership.  You done asked once, and said you wouldn't be back and here's this thread after those threats so I highly doubt you leave this time. 

Free advertisement is great ain't it  ;D  that was a joke by the way, so don't get all upset over it.

You got a dog in this fight BA? Butt out.

Like I told you before, it's a public forum so if you wanna leave then LEAVE.  That simple.  If you don't like my opinions or my postings ignore them and butt out of your own thread  ;)

i dont see why yall keep trying to find out how the mans dogs hunt... The only time ive seen a catahoula hunt is when it was trying to find the exit of the baypen... :)                salty dog, id like to ask how you hunt??  Do you road, walk, cast, hood hunt your dogs?? When you drop your dogs, do you sit and wait for them to strike or do you push them until they roll out or get into fresh sign??

It was directed at both of you, for obvious reasons.


Nobody asked you to come to ETHD and "set the record straight" and nobody is twisting your arm and making you continue to post, even after you say you are done, and have better things to do.

When you came to ETHD, some people asked some genuine questions, and they were not answered at all, or the answer was so vague that their BS meter started going off.   

I am not siding with either member, as I think both of you are being petty to each other. Now, what Mike said is correct, we don't delete memberships, but we do ban them as needed.  I'll be sure and leave these threads up so that people can make educated decisions about where they want to do business.

Message recieved.

Hahahahahah.   Dang son....still hacking up a bag of cheetos I just got lodged in my lungs from laughing so hard! 

Disclaimer:

The views and snyde remarks that YELLOWBLACKMASK chooses to snicker at............are in no way directed toward the hinderance of any dog entrepreneur or prophalactic salesman.   :laugh:

Same old klan of easttex clowns ganging up on a honest fellow. When the question turns on another man they cant answer the same question.  Lets all gang up on this guy. Get a f***ing life yall loosers!

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i never herd if anybody even seen or herd of any of the mans dogs much less hunt them they might be all right
 

I can't speak for the rest of his dogs but i did see one bay at a baying in dekalb and i can tell you that was one rough son of a buck.

Might not matter to any one here but I have known James and Saltydogs for about 15 years.  He's like me raising and working his own dogs and likes what he has.  What I say on this board might not mean much to all but a few has some of my dogs and are pleased with the way they hunt.

I have both registered Catahoula's and Registered Black Mouths and good and bad in both breeds, I have seen it.  Bred the best and cull the rest.

Mr Mason if you dont mind since you know him and his dogs could you let us know how they hunt?  Its all anyone wanted to know but was like pulling teeth.  I would really still like to know.  the man seems knowledgeable enough and some of us were genuinly curios.  If you dont wanna post it could you send me a PM?

The ones I have hunted and seen hunt are a med. range dog with a lot of nose and grit.  Some excell in the bay pen but I like to see a good bay but want the dog to be able to find the hog in the woods.   The ones I have seem I would feed.

I hunted with 1 of his dogs here in Hawaii.  dog is dead now. but he was a pretty gritty  dog. his name was. Maggie

Mr mason I dont knox you personally but hear a lot of good things I respect your word and if you say they are good to go then I trust that. Aint never hunted a full catahoula but have wanted to for a while if there aint one too pricey I might give it a shot

rdjustham looks to me like you should have just stayed out of it! anybody that knows anything about hog dogs no matter what breed or blood line they come from can be trained to be aither rough or just stand back and bay! Everyone has their own likes and dislikes about what they want a dog to do while hunting. My preferance is to have a rough dog that listens to my commands, see if your good enough to breed that into a dog. if you can you will be the best breeder ever. lines are bred for intelligence, looks, strength, nose, instinct, and looks, the rest is up to the trainer to teach. there is no right or wrong about breeding dogs just likes and dislikes of the breeder and how the trainer molds each dog into!

Moer like another guy who dont know how to pick a dog out of a litter or how to train a dog to hunt the way he wants and blend with his pack to improve his success!

I'm pretty sure RD just asked the guy some simple questions that ALOT of people were asking him. rD just took it further then anyone else, which most didn't care enough to do it.

All the breeding in the world don't matter if the dog don't want to  ;)

I've hunted behind his pups. Didbt think pf it it as doggin as all. We was on pigs I seen everytime but dog didn't wanna trail. Yet they stumble on one its caught bulldogs not needed. So my opinion if you wNt to trail pigs ur self n have a bulldog. Ud b better off. Like I said with the ones I hunted behind. Also they are beautiful spotted dogs if u catch my drift. More color less hunt. Altho he sells all colors

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Train a dog to be rough or loose...there you go, I learn something new every day. How do you go about training a dog to be rough? Just wondering because I've got an 8 year old gyp that'll sure enough find a hog if it's in the area. But she won't lay a tooth on it unless a rough dog is there with her. I'd appreciate any training tips you can offer.

Umm.. Im not going to defend myself, i along with alot of other people asked the man multiple, MULTIPLE times on multiple threads a simple question.  "how his dogs hunted"  Mr MAson was able to answer a question bout another man's dogs that he didnt want to answer himself for what ever his reasons were.  

The bottom line is he came here to market his dogs but didnt want to give any info.  And i called him on it.  Looking back, what do i care, i live a long way away from him and the reality of me getting a dog from him would be slim and none.

Now i will give some advice here since based on your post cound you are fairly new here.  before i called anyone out on here i would A: know how the mods react, especially since you and I have had NO conversation and you just come on out with it.

B:  know who your talking about.  There are a lot of guys and gals here who are very knowledgeable ( wouldnt say im one of them though  ;D)

Oh and welcome to the boards.


Oh and Thanks BA-IV i realize i took it to far but good gosh, didint see the trick question, if anyone took offense I apologize but i think we were all after the same thin

Thanks Mr Mason.  Ive heard alot about you and even though we have never met from seeing the dogs that ive been told came from your yard and how they hunt it sounds like i would def want one.

I like a short ranged rough dog and am preferable to a good bred yell Fl cur dog outta cow stock, but i really like the colors leopards throw and would prob still be beggin the man for more pics.

Thanks again for the info.

Good Gawdddddddddd!!!!!  Took me a hour to read most of this .  I have really no ideal who you are Salty Dog but if you been breeding dogs for 22 years thats a long time I have to respect that in itself .  As a long time breeder of dogs myself I can understand not keeping all the dogs and sending some out to people that might have a little flaw here are there as long as the man knew and I told him about it sure the dog might make him a excellent dog.  I can understand that and you could not  use it in your program because of your standards but still it could make a dog for another man .

I would be willing to bet that if you are a true breeder of good dogs that some of those dogs you did not use in your program but sent out to a people that wanted them anyway I bet ya some of those dogs if bred true as you say ended up producing dogs as good as you had and maybe better.  I have seen this many many times over the years its not always the perfect dogs that becomes sometimes the best producer of all in certain bloodlines .  In the old bulldog game we could not do this it would end up bitting us in the ass at a later point in head to head competition but in the hog dogs I could see were a man would let some lesser dogs go out that did not fit his breeding program but could help another man out now Am not talking about dead on culls but dogs that had a nick here and a nick there noting major just not fitting your standards to stay in your kennels .  Its not a crime .  Like I said if bred true it very well could come back and bite you in the ass.  I have sent some dogs out that are not my best but if you ask some of the people that own them and some that have seen them they will tell you real quick they fit the bill.  Same as when I had the bulldogs its not always the best dog that makes the most impact of a bloodline .

Good luck .

Aaaaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah......please


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

With all of this said now .  If in 22 years and you U let some of  these dogs out that did not fit your program but still bred second to none and you tell me that noting produced as good are better than what you had in your kennel then I will be the first to tell you I find that hard to believe and the only explanation for that is your dogs are not bred as true and good as you say are think they are.  If dogs are not tested true for the sport and puppys are being sold then that is called puppy milling and peddlers.

Am just putting it in black and white all horse chit aside!  I know I been there 30 years worth of dealing with dogs and people.  I

All you got to do is just say Which side of the fence are you standing on so every body will shut up !

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Lol ain't that the truth

Crazy Dog Kennels

Wow this thread is heated but okay. Peachcreek I don't think he ever answered you question about you dog though

Crazy Dog Kennels

Well played!!!!'


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

Dustin.."okboarhunter".... I know youre just cuttin your teeth and dont have enough knowledge or experience with any breed to make a statement like that...If you care to show what you have, hit me up and Ill take you hunting and we"ll see if you'll put your money where your mouth is

Never said I was a knowledgable dogger. Just saying what I seen when I went huntin. And me n cole bayed hard have talked about this as well. Exact same hunt.
N Im not calling anyone out that my dogs are better because theur barley started but I guarantee u they didn't hunt like my buddies.


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Son of a bittch, y'all just keep beatin the pisss out of a dead horse. Let it go already.

This thread is full of "Topic Drift"  ;D ;D ;D

That's okay, I don't think Mikey had an issue with topic drift on ethd... ;D

Doesn't seem that way anyhow!


"the sun is shining somewhere in texas" -Jason Boland

Wheeeeeeeeeeew.....I'm all out of popcorn....gonna have to let this one go for awhile...... :P

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By not answering my question he gave me the answer ;) its hard to say what ur dog does when you dont know.. Lol

And there I was trying to stay out of this one lol ..... most people that no me no how I fill about the man,  that's all I need to say.

Sry cole

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Haha! I like that. I may have some of that blood as well! Lol

dramma and more dramma,  lol

X2

That goes for anyone with hunting dogs lol

 Thats a whole lot of typing just to say short to medium range, good bottom and gritty but not too rough.  ;D

It didn't highlight but the above is a quote except for the last smart azz sentence.  :angel: