EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I've been around a few perty good, sure-e-nuff, bad to the bone cow dogs in the last couple years..... having said that, just cuz a dog can turn back a run-away, sour ass heffer, doesn't mean it translates into a good hogdog.   There's lots of great cow dogs out there that couldn't bay a smart hog to save their life.   Cattle are way different than modern hogs, and it takes a dog with S P E E D (did you notice I emphasized speed ;) ) to shut modern hogs down quick.

I know plenty of hard core, old line cow dog breeders that have beautiful, hard working cow dogs.... that translate into nothing more than "grass patch dogs".  I E, dogs that are only effective when a hog is caught on an open plain.

Now.  I'm not saying that this genetic pool is a dead end, by any means.... it's just that I don't want people to believe that just because a dog is a "cow dog" that it automatically makes it a good hog dog prospect.

Like I said... just a few thoughts...

I could not have said it better.I agree 100%

I agree and I have said for years that a bay pen dogs is different to a woods dog.

ill give txmason 100% on that on

Depends on what your definition of a cow dog is.  You may be mistakeing what people mean when they say cow dog.  In my opinion, Any thing with long hiar is a sheep dog not a cow dog, they may call them cow dogs but they were bred for sheep work. Like collies.  And I guess you have the Austrailian Cattle dog but those are made to push cattle and I don't consider those Cow dogs at all either.  Cattle dog maybey but Cow Dog no. lol  A Cow dog to me, and probly any one else who would consider them for hog hunting, is a Cur dog breed like, Blackmouths, Catahoula, Lacy dogs, or Florida Curs.

All real cow dog work takes place outside of a pen, once the cattle are in a pen you dont need the dogs.  And its not always taking place in open pasture with gentle cattle if it was you probly would'nt need dogs.  A tried and true cow dog isn't tested or proven  baying cattle in a pen or open pasture, they are proven finding and baying rough cattle in rough country that requires they use of dogs.  Not just one spoilt heifer but the whole buch of cattle that are'nt expesially fond of
"going to the house".  All those traits that make super hog dogs are traits that a cow dog needs in order for it to be a super cow dog;  Desire, Speed, stop, finesse, hunt, bottom, and brains.  If a dog does'nt have what it takes to be a good hog dog, then I can guarantee you that I would not consider it a good cow dog either.  What makes cow dog stock work so well on hogs is thier finesse and abilty to bay groups of cattle/hogs and at the same time shut down spoilt cattle/hogs.  A hog dog might find a group of 15 hogs and if it ends up baying only one or two hogs out of 15 the hunter might not ever know the differece or even care in the first place.  And the hunter most times would be tickled to death because the dog found him a hog, even though the dog failed at getting all the hogs bayed as a group.    But if a cow dog only bayed up 8 cattle on a place that had 60 head he would be a cull before he knew it.  Just my .02

Waylon

Great post Waylon!

some  do  both most don't ......ones  bred  to  drive and  bay  what   he can see   the  other  is  bred  to find and  bay what  he  can't  see .....

I think there is some misunderstanding of what a cowdog does. There is no real differance in how I use a dog to hunt cattle and how I use the same dog to hunt hogs. My dogs do not ever drive cattle, there job is to hunt , track or wind cattle. They need to stop them and put them in a bunch and hold them at bay untill I get to them. A good cow dog needs to be smarter than the average hog dog and have way more handle.

Paul T

When I'm referring to cow dogs, I'm talking about any dog... long hair, short hair, even purple, that will find(hunt) wild cattle, bay them(bunch them), and hold them till you can get in to them to drive the herd out.  I agree that both a cow dog and a hog dog can, and should, have identical qualities... however, a cow dog can get away with much less speed than what is required of a hog dog.  Like I said, there's a lot of jam up cow dogs out there that just aren't fast enough to make a hog dog.   When you find the ones that are, then you've got something.  Just pointing the speed issue out so people don't waste time on the wrong type of dog.

Great topic.
   I cant see where a good cow dog wouldnt make a hog dog. You need the same in each to make a dog.


Noah, Sad part is the sorry grass patch cow dog pups have a better chance at making a dog then half the ones for sale right now........ Hard to find good pups.

Very true

Well said Pual.  Cow dogs got to have brains.  Most hog dogs would catch a little baby pig given the chance, but if a cow dog did that to a baby calf thats a big no no.  lol.  The cow dog has to be smart enough to know when he's supposed to be working and when hes not.  That goes back to the handle as well.

Noah, except for the old crippled ones, the cow dogs (Curs) used around here I are about as fast as they come, you will be hard pressed to find anything much faster in a working dog.



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Waylon,

Is that brindle male kin to Lana?

Well I'm going to jump in on this one I breed my dogs to work both ways I have 20 dogs on my place 13 solid working dogs every one will go both ways they all handle like champs they all will find a cow or hog they have speed very smart I can leave three baying a herd and pull two off to go find more cows.NOW AS FAR AS STOPPING A HOG ain't been out run this year caught every thing they bayed Have not been on a dry run this year they must be doing something right.I catch cattle at least 3 days a week not had a cow get away.GENTICICS makes a differents now I do cull but I don't cull but about 1 of 20 pups usally It is because it is working way better on hogs than it is on cows and I will give it to a staight hog hunter.I hog hunt about twice a week I will put my cow/hog dogs against most any hog dog will bet they will stop the hog before a regular every day hog dog.I have one dog that is what I call a CHEATER he can stop a running hog in a heart beat he does not run track for track he runs wide and puts the heat on that a$$  his daddy was that way his grandpa was that way.Yes I have worked with hart breed dogs and wetherford ben breed dog I like watching them work but would not put them in my yard.My uncle breed to a hart dog a long time ago and the puppies turned out good He culled one out of seven that did not handle the pup out worked the rest but would not handle.I do not sell dogs I am in the cow business not in the dog business when I breed I breed for me and will give the rest of the litter away.People who know me will tell you that my culls are there best dogs If a dog does not work he don't leave my PLACE I don't give a true cull away.

well i thought i could avoid stepin in this but i put my boots on this mornin so her i go.

 and im just like everyone else all i have to base anything on is personal experiance.

you can hear about anything if you listen long enough rather it be from an old timer or someone passing along second hand info. some is usefull some is not.

none of my statements are dircted toward anyone, so dont go cyber space on me.

i have owned and used cow dogs and alot of my freinds have cow dogs (curs :bmc ,catahoula,lep,and crosses).
im talking about head dogs, dogs that stop cattle and bunch cattle.
and the dogs i wanted where dogs that had alot of intelegance(brains) a dog that looks you in the eye and trys to understand you and what you want.
i like a leggy dog won that could head a runaway cow, with the leg usually came stamina(the ability to work a long day) and speed(fast on his feet) catch up with a cow in a hurry and get her turned back to the bunch, cause you might need his help back with the bunch if the cattle arent dog broke. and usually another dog goes with so the faster their back the sooner i can carry on movin cattle.

now there are alot of other thing to add to that, just like our hog dogs some dogs are naturally rougher than other dogs, so you have to know your dogs and put together a set of dogs for the job at hand.

and then there is hunt the dog that will go out and find cattle in the brush, and just like our hog dogs some are super and some are average.

then there is handle( call off, get ahead, get out,ect,evryone has different terms.) a cow dog has to have alot more handle than a hog dog and thats what seperates a good dog from a great dog and i had a couple of really great dogs and a train load of good ones.
 guys us everything from a 22 pistol to pop of rounds,a bull whip or a shock collar to get handle. and the really good dog men where always good horsemen as well , understand the animal and how to comunnicate with them.

so i think there are alot of similar traits that i look for in my hog dogs(woods dogs), speed, stamina, handle (at least come when called  ;D), and hunting abilaty.

 im shure ill think of something else to add later,  my .02

  good topic.


 

(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/cryward/2009pictures1013.jpg)  This is gyp  that  has my old dog in her four times this gyp can fly I depend on her all you have to do is whisper to her and she nows everything you are saying one hell of a lead dog this is the dog every cow man would dream of and she will bite  your a$$ if she don't know you.she shut a herd of  9 braman cross woods cattle down in seven thousand acres drove them 2 milles to a set of pens all by herself these were cattle that the land owner was sending people in with tranc guns I penned 52 out of that place roped 15 .The man ask me what I charge to catch cattle and I told him I only charge for what I catch he said well you want get a very big check here when we got done me my wife and one other TRUE cowboy got paid.

Nice dog cward, hopefully I stumble on a dog like that some day.  They sound exactly like what I'm working for.

Thanks noah were are you from.

nice dog there cward,  thats what im talkin about.

Central Florida, wish I could make a living working cows... you live my dream cward ;D

how  many  cowdogs  you  see with tracking  collars  on .....not  trying  to  make  anyone mad ....everybody  loves  what they  have ..... handle  is  the  last thing  i worry a bout .... i  have  to  have a  dog  that hunts .....  i mean  hunts ...... a  cow  is  a  hundred  times  easier  to  find  than a  hog ...... i  have a  good  friend  of  mine  that  is a  well know  cowdog  person ....he has  been  on  front  of   cowdog  magezines  and  has  and  does  own  some  real  cowdogs  he can  call  off  set  on  other  cattle  or  whatever .......but  he  quit  bringing  them  hoghunting  ........pasture  dogs ....just  didn;t  have  the  track  down hunt a  real good  hogdog  does ...... for  my  money  mountain  cur  crosses  i like  the  best.......takes  way  more  brains  to  go  hit a  coon  track and  run it  for a  mile  off 3  hour  old scent  and  put  it  in the  right tree ...... game  finders ..... its  each  to  his  own ..... and s ome  cowdogs  make  real good  hogdogs ....but  working cattle  and  finding a  boar  hog  off a  single  track 4  hours  old laid  up in a  cutover  half a  mile  off  is a  different  world .....

Circle C....They are pretty much all related in some way or another.  That Brindle one is a gyp and full litter mate to Lana....also have a male from that litter and the Dog they are out of, they are in Dads yard.  I told him I needed the male litter mate and he had too many dogs anyway.... but no luck :-\.  The solid black dog in the bottom pic is related also goes back to a grand dam....not mine but same breeding and just wanted to show the build.  The Black and tan is from cow dog stock and could be related to lana as both have relatives from the same yard, but just dont know if they matched up, but they share some of the same blood.

Waylon

parker
  thats the reason we dont all drive the same kinda trucks, wear the same kinda boots.

 that why we do this to find out everyone else's veiws,  who knows we might learn something .

  thanks for the input

Waylon,
  Lana pulled one out of the hat today for Harry. Really nice boar hog, maybe he will post some pictures when he gets back in town.

Hello Mr parker herd alot about your dogs even looked on your sight at your dogs very nice.Seen one of your dogs hear around my area.   But in the picture of my yellow gyp she has a tracking collar on when theses dogs leave they leave in the story this gyp was bayed on the  9 head and 3 more dogs were bayed on 11 head that day we had to track to them when I go hunt for cows I hunt.when we go hunt we might look in 15000 acres for 20 head  2 or three might be together.I'm am usally called after all the pets are gone.I have tied cows like hogs in the woods.I catch lots of hogs with the same dogs.They will take a track and trail it.like I said I have seen dogs better than my mine but I just like a handle. I do not belieave you should have to leash a dog after catching a hog they better get on.Gentics  works good for me.Just like it works good for you.Some of the cows I hunt you better be a cowboy and you better have a good dog and you better be sitten on a real horse.

Noah if you are ever in the southeast texas area stop by and we will go make around I have plenty of place's to hunt mostly ranch's but we catch and tie every thing but your more than welcome to come and go.and bring your dogs.And yes I love what I do would not change it for anything I have a son named cattle this is are life style.

my cowdog is good  on hogs to but... he will run cows if your in a place that has them until you call him off. so therefore he is only used as a cowdog

Thanks cward, honestly, I'd rather just come catch cattle with you... but I guess we could mess with a hog after we ran out of daylight.

I've actually been playing around with the idea of putting my older hog dogs on cattle, now that they're completely broke off them(see if I can really screw 'em up  ;D ).... no sense in having two sets of dogs when you can just train on 'em a little harder ;)

That's Right !!!!!!!

cward  i'm  sure  you  have  some  very  nice  dogs ...... i  have  penned  quite a  few  cattle  myself .....have  rode  miles gathering  fence  breakers ..... roped  dragged  and  tied  cattle  in the  woods  too ......  but  i  still  haven't  seen  very  many  cowdogs  that  will  get down and  hunt a  hog  like a good  hogdog .....  the  places  i hunt  would  just  be a  different  world  than  what  most  cattle  dogs  are  used  too ..... it  whatever a  person  likes ...

well, i'll say this much about Chance's (cward) dogs.  they're for REAL hog dogs for dang sure.  i had the pleasure of hunting with him and a partner of his.  they work real hard and definitely have a good handle. 

i'd feed em any day of the week.....

I just had to put in my thought on this topic too. I have managed ranches here in Fla for 13 years, the last ranch we ran 500 cow/calf pairs on thousands of acres. Some pasture, but some was rough woods too. I have been raising the same line of dogs I have now for about 26 years and have used the same line on both hogs and cows with success. Our cow dogs usually couldn't see the cattle they had to wind thema nd bay them up. And yes a 100 head of cattle are a lot easier to wind that one hog in a briar patch but the drive to find them still has to be there.

I rarely used the same dogs on cows and hogs but may use littermates. When I go to pen cows I don't want my dogs to get off on a hog and mess up a days work. And when I am hog hunting they better not mess witha  cow.....

That said I know what Larry is talking about. My dogs won't have the range his will but are bred to hunt closer and have more handle. I will be 50 years old in August and I personally don't want a dog that will go 5 miles to find a hog. The hunting places here in Fla keep getting smaller and I need a dog that hunts with me, not one that hunts like a hound and goes and goes. But for the way Larry hunts, his dogs are ideal for him.
I feel Larry definately has a good breeding program and his dogs have their place.

If I had huge tracts to hunt, ((and was maybe younger...LOL) I would have to try one of Larry's dogs just so I could see what they do in the woods, having never actually hunted with a Parker cur.

But I hunt places that are 1,000 -3,000 acres and my dogs get off of those places regularly so I know I don't want anything longer ranged than what I have. My dogs are medium range, medium nosed dogs with a lot of speed, a head full of sense, and run to stop, whether its a cow or hog. They are not going to run along and boo hoo bark at something, like some of the cow dogs I have seen, I can tell you that...

BTW good looking dog cward!!

U sure she did'nt pull him out of a thickett?  Tell him to post it if he can I'd like to see it.

Waylon

Good posts Waylon and Silverton. I couldn't agree more.

I will take cow dog pups over hog dog pups any day. Cheaper, smarter, higher probability of them turning out. Too many hog hunters keep dogs out of pride or pitty. When some one makes a living working cattle, you can bet they are probably using the best they can find.

This works for me, in my area, and my situation. Not claiming any thing more...  ;D

just my short experinced opinion, but from what i have seen in the few places that i have hunted that has hogs and cows, they bay up differently. it seems to me that when hogs get busted up, most of them go into everyman for his own mode, some stick together some go one way and keep going and some kind of duck off to the side and hide. i have seen them bunch up together but not often. so wouldnt it take a bad dog to be able to bunch a group of hogs and keep them together. now i am talking about places that get dogged often and maybe the hogs have it figured out and the cows know they have a better chance of saving their young if they stick together. so i see what your saying noah, different dog for a different but similar job.

I am gonna have to say AMEN to this!!!!!! I have caught and tied CATTLE in the same swamps I have caught and tied HOGS!!!! The difference is usually only about 600-900 lbs. I am not sure where most of you have seen cow dogs work...NALC competitions don't constitute a dog being a cow dog.....I have used my cowdogs in Florida and South Georgia swamps and North Georgia Mountains.....I know LOTS of hog dogs that wouldn't cut it baying and catching cattle. 

Cows will do that too if you treat them the wrong way. 
My dad leased a ranch years back and baught the cattle with it.....actually 3000 acres of brush and not much pasture.  The previous leese (the guy we bought the cattle from), well lets just say his replacement heifers were the ones he could not catch.  This is what the guy said I'll sell you the gentle cattle and there are a few wild ones that u can't catch and you can have those.  The deer and coyotes on this place weren't as wild as some of the cattle.  We had the place leased for 6 years and during that time dad made a point to get rid of any real wild cattle that got penned or caught.  We trapped a few, roped some and usually would get a couple to the lot every time we penned.  That being said when the place was sold and dads lease was up we penned the majority of the cattle and there were still about a dozen of those snakes left, some of which dad had never even seen.  All of which had to be hunted one at a time and roped.  Turn loose on fresh tracks and start hunting.  Work like that is where cow dogs are proven and cow dog stock that does work like that will produce excellent hog dogs.  Just my 2 cents.

Waylon

Waylon

I am gonna have to go with Parker.I have used lots of dogs on cattle,and didnt like them on hogs.I want my hog dogs to go find me a hog.I dont want them looking me in the eye,I want them to go till they find one.I want a colder nosed dog ,that can take a older track,than what most cow dogs will.When someone says cowdog around me I think Blackmouth Curs,Catahoulas etc.Although,I have seen some Kelpies that were damn hard to beat on cows.When someone says hunting dog I think Mountain Curs,Plotts,Hounds.I know that there are some great Blackmouth hog dogs,and Catahoulas etc.To me it all boils down to what you like in a dog.Great topic.

There is a small hand full of dogs and places around where you can put a dog on a day old cow track and ride till you find them, which might be the next day. The closing of open range and small improved pastures about made them extinct, but they do exist. They find and bay hogs the way I like, if they are in a bunch keep them bunched, if its a single and standing still back up and bay, if it runs stop it then back up and bay. They also hunt as wide and hard as most hounds and do not lack nose.

I have heard of those Blackmouth dogs.Sound like great dogs to me.Yall are lucky to have them.

I tested my first litter of florida cur cow dogs when scott (realdogs) came down and bought a few pups from me.  At 3 months old we took them to a pen full of shoats, put them in the pen and they went to catching.  Scott took two pups and said both made excellent hog dogs in texas, one was killed and one is TJ, still alive.  I sold the rest of that litter and all made dogs.  I went back and got a few more of the same cross.  The cowboy told me he used his dogs to find cattle in the woods and bring them out.  He said they were too gritty, one has 3 legs, most are pretty banged up.  The male and female I have now are straight up strike dogs that will shut a hog down and not even a year old yet.  They have a great nose and will track and wind and roll out deep.  They are real smart.  You can see crackerc hunts the partin line and his monkey dog is a real hog dog.  The cowboys move the cows in a group and when one breaks and runs the dogs bring it back. A lot of these make great hog dogs.  I'm mainly focusing on the lines that are used to hunt woods cows in the woods.  I promise you I can take any dog that will find a cow in the woods and either bay it or catch it and turn that dog into a hog dog every time.  You can ask scott aka realdogs what kind of dog TJ is on those texas hogs.  A lot of the cowboys use catahoulas and blackmouths on cows too and a lot of them will make good hog dogs.  I'm not talking about a bay pen dog.  I wouldn't feed one of those. 

I dont like a rough dog on cows,or hogs.And the country you hunt,and where Scott hunts is a world away from where I am.

I don"t like my cow dogs rough nor my hog dogs I have a few that get alittle rougher than others.I like my dogs to get rough on comand but I can't stand mine to chew cow or hog.mine are more rangey on hogs than they are on cows when they relize that I am working cattle than they get real rangey to find a cow have had to use tracking systems to find them.But like Mr parker likes his black and brindle dogs he get rid of all his red and yellows!I have a lot of blacks,brindles,black with brindle legs black and tans yellow,reds.I keep any of them not just color my dogs have litters will be half black and half yellows.Same blood just differnt colors.

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Sweet Pics Silverton!!!  ;D

Nice pic!

cool pics! 

those are some badass pics silverton

it all  in  where  you  hunt  how  you  hunt ......you fella's  that hunt  both cattle and hogs  want dogs that will  go both  ways .... so the  medium  between the  two  suits  you fella's  best ..and  that  usually  dogs  with  not  quite the  range  as  what  i  hunt ...when  i  put a  dog  down  sometimes  i don't  see that  dog  for a  couple  hours ... alot  of  the hog hunters  i sell  dogs too  drive  around  during the  day   looking  for  tracks ....  i mean  alot  of  us  want  even put  down  on  sow  and  pig  sign ....we  will check  wallows  or  feeders  or where  we  may  have  put  some oil  on  some  highline  poles ......we  cut boars  so  in the winter  we  are  looking  for  barrhogs ...... basically  looking  for a  big track  to  put  on ...  we  need  a  cur  that hunts  like a  hound but  silent ......not  all  of  my  dogs  hunt  like  that  i   hunt  some  from  a  boat ....some  i  cast  in the   river  bottom ......then  i  single  hunt  my  track  dogs .....one  dog  down  on  a  track ....one  of  the  main  things  is  look  at  what  you  have  to  hunt and  hunt that  dog the  way  he  or  she  hunts the  best  and  the  dog  will look like  a million  dollars ....... nice  looking  dogs  silverton ... it  would  be  hard  for  me  to  bay  4  of mine  they'd  get  ruff .....i keep  just the  black  and  brindle  cause  of breeding......the best dog i have  ever  owned was my blackie dog ....he was a sure  nuff track dog .....and  i like  anything that looks  like  him ..... color  is  the  first  indication  of  what the pup  is  from .....anything that throws  litter  and c an produce from different fathers at the  same  litter ...or  have  throw backs generations  back ....so  i stick  with  what  i know...


 

Parker, thats why I put up that pic with 4 dogs holding a single, the rest of the herd is behind that cow. Those dogs are trained not to get rough with a cow that has not left the herd (handle). I do not want a dog to bite a cow that is looking at them, back up and bay. If she breaks and runs those four will hang off her head untill she gets back to the herd or they will catch and hold her untill I can get her caught.

We catch alot of mavric cattle in this part of Texas, big pastures here. My favorite dogs for working big country are Catahoula/ Plott cross dogs. They are long range dogs that stay hooked but are smart about holding cattle or hogs. I think the thing to remember is that we don't have any "pet" cattle out here, they are often harder to find and hold than the hogs. So our dogs that go both ways are just as you have described your hunting dogs, just with a little more handle.

I think I will just stick to pouring out a sack of cubes in the catch pen and blowing the horn a couple times... ;D

I sure wish i would have had one of those kind this weekend. it woudl have made it easier for sure! it tured out pretty good and we got em caught but i definately see the need for a good gritty bay dog!  ;D

That is the type cattle we caught in the swamps  of Florida and mountain ridges of North Georgia.....the thing is...if they came to range cubes and a truck horn....they wouldn't have called us..... ;D

silverton  the  dogs  you  describe  being  part  hound  is  not   your  typical  cowdogs  most people  raise ......  you  know  i  used  to  ride  some  with a  friedn  of  mine ...and  it  was a  fence  buster  here  and  there  he  was  called  to  catch ......i  told  him if i was  you  i'd  have  me a  plott that  woul d track  a   cold  cow  trail  put him  on the  track  and  listen  til  he  gets  it  worke d up  then  send  the  curdogs .....we  was  always  getting  on  someone  elses  cattle  with the  cur's ..... there's  no  doubt  its  hard  to  get  anything  with  more  stick  than a  hound  or  hound  cross  ........ also  i like  the hardness  of  some  of  the  birddog  breeds ....... mountain  curs  have  hound  type  traits  in  some  of  the  old  stocks  that  why  i like  em .......also  handle  here  hoghunting  don't  mean  much  to  us ....we  gonna  walk  up  and  put a bulldog  on thehog  most  of  the time  and  catch  the  dog  off  .......another  thing myself  i like  handle  to  come  last  as  i  am  hunting the  dog .... to  much handle  on the  start hinder's a  dog  you need  to  really get  out  and  go ....... mind  you  we  drop hunt  off  4  wheelers  or trucks ... so the  dogs have  to leave  hunt and  come  back  to  us  if  they  don't  bay ...... my  training  is   different than most  i  have a  300  acre  hog  pasture  to  train in  so  not  being able  to catch  one  on the start  really  doesn't  bother  me  .....they get hungry a nd  realize  to load  at the  gate hahahaha .....

Mr Parker the reason I went to your sight awhile back is because I have alot of black dogs to I have been breeding dog for 17 years.A friend of mine told me you have alot of black dogs it enterest me of where the black came from on my dogs I know a lot of history on my dogs but it goes back futher than I can get so when people are breeding black dogs it brings the question were did yours come from and how did they start.This is a black gyp of mine and I have a littermate to her that is yellow blackmouth. they are out of 2 yellow dogs but I have several blacks .  (http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/cryward/ALLPICSOFFCAMERA027.jpg)

Paul, those are some cool pictures.The guys that catch cattle down here are using the same type dog you are.They use them both ways,with good success.       Chance,that black dog is sure pretty.I know it must be a goodun to be around your place.Thanks for the pictures fellers.

Its amazing the lack of respect given to cow dogs in this post. They find and hold animals 3-4 times the size of an average hog and have 10 times the handle. :(

Eric,I think you are a way off base.I dont think anyone is disrespecting cowdogs.I know I sure aint,dont think anyone has.

everyone has there opioin on what a good dog is some like hounds some like curs some like ugly dogs lol but I think this was a great thread mine go bothways and I like my dogs and catch lots of hogs with them maybe I just stumble up on them but I'm catching them.If your catching hogs when there are hogs to be found you must have atleast a decent dog.

 i've  seen  some  good  cowdogs .......to  me a  cowdog  is a  working  animal ......  they say  lois  ross  can  call  his  off  by  name  and send  em  back  by  name  ...... penning  cattle  in the  bad  hot  summer    you  can  loose  some  good dogs  if  you  don't  have  a handle  on  em ..... need  to  be  able  to  call  em  off  and  let  em  water ....the hogdogs  i  hunt  is  hunt  bred dogs ..kinda  like a  coon  dog turn  him  or  her  loose  and  if  they'll  go  find me a  hog  i'll  find  them  hahahhaha .... i  sure  hope  i  haven't  made  anyone mad  if i did  it  surely  wasn't  my  intension .....i  just know  what i like  in a  dog  witch  varies  depending  on how  i am  hunting at the  time ...... and  i sure respect  what  someone  else  likes .....

cward  that sure  is a  nice  looking gyp ......she  is  what  i like  for looks in a  dog .....i  really  like  her  head .......

I think some might under estimate cow dogs if they have not seen first hand the job they have to do.  That, and they think of your average cow as being on the tame side which might true, but not for all cattle.  On the other hand ive seen cattle you could put your hands on in the pasture that would not go in the lot at all....... Just stand at the gate and watch you pour the cubes on the ground, or you can chase them around all day with a horse and never get them penned.  Thats called spoilt but throw some dogs on the ground and let them bay and settle for a few mins. and you can drive them to the lot no problem and never go faster than a lope on your horse.

The thing is cow dogs are evaluated on several different levels, that most hog dogs are not...even the good hog dogs.   Things like handle and finesse get payed more mind in cow dogs, for one because it's more of a necessity in cowdogs and only a bonus in hog dogs.  Also, because with cow dogs you GET more of a chance to see and evaluate how the dog actually works the stock.  But in hog dogs all you get to see 90% of the time is maybe dogs baying for a few seconds before you cut the CD loose or pull the trigger.  Maybe not even that, just hear a solid bay and cut a CD loose and all you see is caught hog.  Not that all cow dogs are perfect, but that goes for any class of dogs.  You do see allot of cow dogs that lack a little hunt because now days in most places you don't really need it on cows so it does'nt come as a priority when breeding decisions are made.  But the same is true for dogs that are used exclusively on hogs...allot of times they lack finess and/or handle.  Thats where the lines that go both ways in the same litter and even same dog shine, usually they are solid all around dogs.

In a perfect world, when it comes to Cur dogs, I would want to see pups go to cow dog homes and hog dog homes from the same litter to really test the breeding and see if it was a good one or not.  That way you have a better quality control to see if the breeding is going in the right direction or not.  Just my 2 cents.

I agree with cward there have been some differences of opinion but its been a good thread and no feelings hurt....lets just keep it that way and agree to disagree.

Waylon

This thread has been interesting, but here's my take.

I believe the main difference in cow dogs and hog dogs is that very few of us make our living with hog dogs, and there are probably even fewer who have a pack of cow dogs that they just use to go catch cattle for a few hours on a Saturday morning just for sport.

Due to the nature of how cow dogs work, it is imperative that they have a handle put on them that's simply just not required in hog dogs (but not saying isn't possible).  Cow dogs typically do not do a job alone, but rather they are a tool; a part of the whole package (handler, horse, etc) that all work together to get the job done. 

Hog dogs on the other hand, do not require anything other than some land to run.  Heck, I might load a couple of dogs go catch a hog and put them back in the kennels without ever saying a word to them.

There are similarities, but in my opinion there are also many differences.  For instance, in all my dogs one quality I look for is independance.  Many people might disagree, but I like a pup that's just a hair stand-offish.  I like a pup that is a little hard to catch....one that might even crawl in it's barrell when you approach the kennels.  It's been my experience that dogs like this will hunt much harder and deeper than those that always want to be by your side.  Call me crazy, but I don't feed my hog dogs for companionship.  I feed them for one thing only, and thats to leave and find me a hog when the gate opens.

I'm not knocking one or the other, in fact I know that it takes much more work to finish out a good cowdog.  Just trying to point out a few differences, and throw out some food for thought.

Yes it is a good thread, enjoyable read. ;)

Byant,

Wish my hunting partner ol Dean could chime in on this a little bit. I'd be willing to bet he probally has never touched a keyboard though.

My uncle told me the other day he was going to buy him a cumputer he was tied of hereing everyone talk about what they found on the computer.Now what is funny about this is this man is 65 years old he is a bachleor he wakes up with boots and spurs on all he can turn his hand at is cowboying!He heard everone talking about DISH SATELITE about how good it was so he usally has my wife take care of things for him but not this time.He order it and the guy came out and put it in but he found a sucker he told my uncle that he had a sourd sound  system  he had to many come in and they normally $1800 but he would sell him one for $600 so he bought it we went over to see him he told me to come see what kind of deal he got it is the same one you buy at walmart for about $400.He also has a icebox with a keg in it tape out the side thats pretty funny to.So I'm waiting on him to get a computer to see what they try to sell him!

 Awesome thread. Keep the pictures coming.


   

A dog that is out of a line of dogs that will find cattle in the woods, bay and catch them will make an excellent hog dog everytime, will have a handle better than most and will usually be a strong, working dog with a good nose and range.  call scott aka realdogs and ask him what tj is doing in texas and what he thinks of this line of florida cur cow dogs.  Tj is as good as it gets.  I've got his full sister, she's as good as it gets.  They are long range early starting rough bay dogs that shut down hogs.  They are pure florida cur cow dog stock.

ninja,
  are you named Sean,from Fla.?

Ninja I hate to disagree with you but you stated that a cow bred cur will make an excellent  hog dog EVERY time. I don't know if thats true or not. I have had some of my dogs that wouldn't mess with a hog but were absolutely crazy over a cow. I had one called Snoop that was an aunt to my Rock and Dixie dogs, she was a littermate sister to their mother. You could ride her through palmettos full of hogs, send her and when you found her bayed she was on cows. She would go past hogs looking for cows. She was just that way from a pup, I never had to get after her to leave hogs alone. 
Now, if I had broken her off cattle, would she have done that well on hogs??? Well, lets just say I didn't want to mess up a good thing to find out!! She was the best cow dog I ever owned and a lot of local cowboys really liked her too.

I agree 110%! 

 now  here's   two  questions ..

how  many  people  would  believe  me  if  i said  my  stock  of  hogdogs  make  just  as  good  of  cowdogs ?

now  how  many  would  believe  if  what  i  have  was  cowdogs  they  make  just  as  good  hogdogs ....?

I'd like to believe it, but having never seen either, I'd like to hear/see proof of it.  Might just have to try one out  if it's true! ;) ;D

There is alot of curdog blood in your dogs and no matter how we look at it its still there do.I would like to consider my self a DOG man which I would consider you that way .you breed for what you want the same as I do a lot of people respect what you got if not when you go to the post with your name on it there are 40 or more post about you which non were bad! But I look at your dogs and I see something in them that I like High flanked good leg good heads do I se hustle in your dogs yes I can see it .I do beleave if I had one of your dogs that it would make a cow do are they breed for a handle maybe not BUT they sure ain't dumb did  your old black dog care as much of you as you did him oh no........ found a soft spot no I'm just kidding my main dog when I first started I would shoot a fellar over so must mean the the dog was smart.In the picture's of your dog he showed to be proud of what he was doing for you.SO YES I think your dogs would make REAL good cow dogs but do you want them to be no!Do you pride on them being good hog dogs yes!So I have never hunted behind your dogs But as a dog man they look very good and some people might say looks don't cut it maybe there right but as a breeder I do not go tell my kids to go pick any puppy out of the litter I go find the one's that I think is what I'm shooting for the best.Thanks Mr Parker for sharing you time with us!

I would say you would have to show me..........on both........  ;D

man  i  am  just  conversateing  with  ya;ll .......really  my  dogs  ain't  cow  type  dogs  they  bay  wrong ....would  some  make  cowdogs  yeah  .....most  NO .....  most  of  what  i raise would travel  to much  for  most  cow  hunters ......they  wouldn't  work  up  front  like a  drive  dog  should .....or  some  wouldn't .......
 i'll leave  this  thread  with  this ....  

We are all just having fun.... ;D Most of us have dogs that fit our style and that is why they are our dogs, and not on someone else's spread....... and most of us know that there are different breeds for different hunting styles.....but it is humorous to talk about it isn't it?!?!  LOL

A few of the comments in this thread have got me thinking...   Is "handle" nature or nurture?  I have always pretty much associated handle in cur dogs coming from nurture and the time spent with a dog training it, but it seems like some on here have indicated that the handle is in the breeding.  Now I know some breeds are very "trainable", do y'all feel like this is the case within certain lines of cur dogs, that some are easier to put a handle on?

I think that a breeder can select and breed for handle, in fact I am sure of it.

Well there is a very popoular breed of cur dog right here not far from me not going to say the name but these dog are some of the hardest working dogs you ever seen but WILL NOT HANDLE I at one time I was wanting to try to cross there dogs into mine but it did not take me long to decide that was a mistake.These dogs would slobber at the mouth bay and bunch cattle just owesome but you could not call them off you whip them with a bull whip and they would go right back to doing what they were doing before.The only way you could get the dogs to stop was to pen the cattle and then get on the ground to catch them.My brotherinlaw bought 2 dogs from this man thinking he was going to have the best hogs he lost 2 places to hunt over those dogs not listen.He wanted me to make the cross to see if we could get them to handle and I refused to make it best looking cur dogs I ever saw!So yes I beleave you can breed handle in them.

Or breed it out them them on purpose or not.

Its hard to say about Cur dogs they don't have the typical trainability that you think of when you think of most pet bred dogs like labs and such.  The way I think of it is, a Cur dog has a strong desire to work stock and that is bred in to them (Nature).  More so, they have a strong desire to perform thier work FOR you, and WITH you which is also bred into them.  With that they are more inclined to take a handle because they understand that they are doing the work for you and instinctively look to you for direction during the work while at the same time maintaining an independent mind (Mind of thier own if you will) which is required for the type of work that they do.  Every good Cur dog ive been around definately had a mind of thier own compared to the extreem of pet bred labs which are like zombies wating for you to tell them what to do.   So I would say the handle you find in Cur dogs expecially cow dogs is a result of that desire to work for you more than it is trainability, plus the amount of work hours they put in penning cows most days of the week.  Now I've found its harder to train Cur dogs to do things like sit, or shake than it is most other dogs. And I've found it impossible to train any Cur ive ever had to fetch they just dont have the retrieving instinct.  But with enough time spent both the Curs I have in my yard know sit, shake, laydown and wait untill I say "take it" before they start eating...most of the time. lol.  But that stuff is a result of lots of repitition and if they really dont wanna do it, they wont sit or shake or lay down.  Thats why I say a Cur does'nt really have trainability they just have a desire to work FOR you.  just my .02

Waylon

cward,
Are these dogs in Texas? Are they rough/catchy? Or straight up catch dogs?

No they aer not catchy they will catch on comand or if something breaks they will make it beg for the heard.But not just bust out there and catch something if you have a brahman cross bull in a thickit they make him come out.

cward could you pm me some more info, Where these folks are located ect?

Well i hunt with a man that gots some jam up cow dogs that are just as good at finding a hog i have seen them bayed on a sow and a boar ran across the road in front of them called them out by name and sicked them on the boar hog they are some of the best dogs i have seen and got the best handle i have seen

That's what I'm talking about!  I can only hope I have the skills to get a dog to that level one day.

wish i just had some hogdogs

I took a job in south Texas catching wild cattle one summer with some friends of mine.  In my opinion a good cow dog is just as good as a good hog dog.  The dogs we used had to track cattle for miles that were spookier than a white tail deer in some of the roughest country I have ever seen.  Once bayed these cows would fight a dog for hours, if you didn't get their quick you could lose a dog.  It all comes down to grit and heart.  Not every cow dog will make a hog dog and not every hog dog has what it takes to work a cow.  A good dog is where you find them.
Justmy .02