EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Barlow, BigO, Parker, Texashogdogs, etc,  how do you place your pups so that you know if a particular cross was a success?

Let's use a hypothetical litter of 8 pups

Do you keep them all and raise and hunt them?
Do you pick a couple that you will raise and hunt personally, then cull the rest at an early age? Or keep them all then cull after starting them in the woods?
Do you select certain people who hunt in a similar manner as you and send pups to them?

What I am trying to find out, is how does one really know the quality of the pups they produce first hand?

I know that within the small group of people that I hunt with, we look for different traits in a dog, and we have different expectations.

Take this example and tell me what you think...I have a dog that I think highly of, and a friend has a bitch that we both think highly of, we both feel that this will make a good cross. Now, I don't think either one of us wants to raise 8 puppies, and I don't feel like I am able to hunt often enough to give 8 pups a good shot at making a dog. I think that I can feasibly start and give a fair shake to no more than two pups... I don't want to send the pups to just anyone, but I also know that everyone has varying expectations of a pup/dog.  How do I know that the cross was successful in this situation?

Or maybe the better question is simply, how do y'all know if a cross was successful?

 

I use to  own a lot of land so a lot of dogs were no problem but now I live in town on a Hugh lot but still not the country so I cant keep a lot of dogs so therefore  you can bet the ones that I do keep are the real deal ,

What I do is I don't make a bunch of breedings cause I don't sell dogs I breed what I need so like I had a liter of 11 and I could only keep two and a good friend what hunts with me wanted one so I kept three and the others went away .   You never know which pup is going to be what so I get ask all the time how do you pick your pups well the best way I have found to pick your pup is put them all in box shuffle them up and close your eyes and pick two are three how ever many you are going to keep and let it be done .

I hear this all the time well I want a certain body build and I want long legs and I want this dog to look like this are have that.  Well all I can tell you is that I have seen many liters of dogs not nesserally cur dog pups and I'm here to tell you conformation don't really mean Jack I have seen medium size dogs blister a long legged dogs  and I have seen short body dogs with great wind and lungs and I have seen short eared dogs have noses better than hound dogs.  So why beat yourself up when picking a dog just roll the dice and get it done you will be happy.

Once you bred are A man like Mr Parker has  bred A good line of dogs for so many years it don't really matter like he said most will turn out just because of the culling process and the breeding behind them .  I dont now Mr Parker for Adam  but just using him as a example would like to meet him one day .

I have seen breeders that have bred lines for 40 years and people would say O man I want that pup that looks just like the daddy identical and he would more than welcome them to take it,  just because a dog looks  like the momma are the daddy don't mean jack I  have seen dogs look identical to there dads are moms and be just the opposite when it came time to show.  Picking pups for the looks is for show people .

To answer you question on a subject like that is hard to do not knowing the line of dogs are how the breeders have bred threw the years.  In a case like yours  the best thing to do is place the pups out that you don't want even tho you may not want to but you need to because you have not had enough breeding are breedings go on with  your line of dogs to figure out just what is what you need to see a real percentage and then  you can start making your decisions on how many to keep for sure and cull the rest .   You question is a hard question to answer.  Once you get your family set then the real problem comes as to what to do with all the pups cause your percentages go up big time once the family is set.  I would most likely try to hand a few of them out to some one you might can trust not many these days.

I would like to state that I don't want anybody on this forum to think I have the best dogs in the world nor do I think they are any better than yours.  I have not bred cur dogs but for about five years but i bred other strains of dogs for over 25 and had some good success . I'm I proud of the dogs I own now the cur dogs yes I'm and yes there is always better dogs out there some were never forget that I just strive to try and make mine better each and every time I breed if not I have no reason to own these dogs . Every mans dogs has a bad day mine do yours do everybody's does .  I'm no trouble maker man I just rub some people the wrong ways some times because if ask a question I'm gonna anwser it as truefully as I can and if there is one thing people can stand it is the truth sometimes so yeah I can rubb U the wrong way but you have been told the truth on my experince with dogs when you leave, one thing to remember here is that I'm not pushing no sales and are pushing my line of dogs to sale so what I say is for your bennifit if you want to use it  not mine thats a big differnce n some.     if somebody's dogs spanks mines butt I will gladly shake your hand and come back harder the next time that is just friendly competition and the way it should be if yours spanks mines ass hell you might not get rid of me till you let me buy a pup are breed to the one that done it ahahhahahahahahahahahahahah

All in sport man all in sport if a man ain't completive he need not be in this game.

TexasHogDogs


(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q307/TexasHogDogs/elmcreek024.jpg)

Dog Killer 1
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Dog Kller 2
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Mutts
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I consider a cross a good one when I don't have go through too many to find some good ones. You need some help in my opinion, to breed hunting dogs. A man can't start more than a couple of pups at a time without having problems. I know some folks that are good dogmen and good hunters that like the same type dogs that I do and will flat hunt the hair off one. I give them all they will take. I have made a couple of mistakes over the years in breeding these dogs and these same people have saved my rear end from loosing it all. I started with dogs from a great cross, so its been hard to improve them and a struggle to mantain them, but they are capable of producing some great dogs. They also produce some junk and more so so dogs than I would like and have found it impossible to produce the percentages Of what I call good dogs that other people claim. It doesn't bother me to cull a whole litter, after trying them, but when you see me unsnap one, it's a good one.

Well said... Well said.  Are we here to chase dogs..... or to catch hogs? ;) ;D

...... I think I feel a t-shirt logo coming on..... ;D

Noah, I have a t-shirt that you would like. I picked it up at a show in south Fla last year. It is really more suited for young guys but I just had to have it....LOL

It reads" I am either out with your old lady, or catching hogs your dogs can't". Man, you think THAT won't ruffle some feathers....... ;D

I will have to see if I can dig up who I got it from, he had several good ones, including one that had a Rebel flag, the FWC logo and read " FWC's Most Wanted".

As far as competition, I don't care much about that. I hunt for me and my dogs , not someone else. If I like my dogs, I will keep feeding them. I really don't care how they do compared to someone elses dogs. As long as I keep catching hogs, I am fine with that. Can I improve? Absolutely. But its to suit me, not compete with the Jones's.............

Amen!! Cracker I like to catch hogs and as long as my dogs are getting the job and succesful then I am happy and will keep feeding them.Now I will get real competive if someone says there's a hog out there that can't be caught I'll make it happen some way or another.               But chris all my dogs on my place are related and I have kept whole litters tryed it that way but I usally get mad when I do that just messing with that many puppies you just can't put the time in them they need. I try to keep a pair then try to hand them out properly to people I no.Yes you gamble on theres being better than yours but it is a gamble that turns out in the end.

As far as competition, I don't care much about that. I hunt for me and my dogs , not someone else. If I like my dogs, I will keep feeding them. I really don't care how they do compared to someone elses dogs. As long as I keep catching hogs, I am fine with that. Can I improve? Absolutely. But its to suit me, not compete with the Jones's.............

Amen!! Cracker I like to catch hogs and as long as my dogs are getting the job and succesful then I am happy and will keep feeding them.Now I will get real competive if someone says there's a hog out there that can't be caught I'll make it happen some way or another.         

Thats what it is all about man .  Your dogs catch hogs thats all you need.  I dont really care for the competition either but when it comes to a challange if somebodys got one and my dogs and I are there we are in .  I chased that first dog killer up there for over a year and he finaly messed up he killed my Black Jack dog the second one like to killed me and did kill my Daisy dog he drug me down three flights of river bank and Killed my Daisy dog along the way  the only hog I have never been able to flip and Tom slid down the bank three flights with a 30/30  put three rounds in him point blank before he fell the plastic back in the back of the truck is my dog.  Tusk went straight threw a well known catch vest.

TexasHogDogs

Chris, If I am making an unproven cross I always keep all the pups untill they are at least 10 months old. I want to see for myself how they turn out. I want to handel the pups all the same and see how strong the cross is. I will show them hogs at the same time, show them cattle at the same time, start them hunting at the same time...thats the only way I can really tell what's what with a litter. I may cull some along the way, but I want to really see how they compairand see how consistant the litter is when they are being raised and trained the way I want.

Contact Mr. Howard Carnathan in Tupelo Mississippi, he registered the first YBMC a dog named Bruno. He can tell you every cross he has ever made. He can tell you what nicked well and what didnt! He keeps in touch with the owners of his pups. Mr Carnathan would be a good one to ask that question, he has kept record of his dogs for 40 years and he is more than glad to talk to anyone on the phone

i sale  my  pups ......if  you  give a  pup  away  he   is  worth  zero to the  owner .....if  he  buys  him  he  has money   in him  or  her .....that  means  the  dog  will  get  better treatment  usually ...... also  he  can  make  a few  mistakes and  still  live ...as  they all make  mistakes .....hahahahaha


now  far  as  how  they turnout as a  whole  litter ....most  people  call me  and  tell  me  about the hunts the  pups     has  been  on  and  what  he  seen the    pup   do ..... and  if  a  pup  does  real  well lots  of  times  i  get calls  from  his  hunting  buddies  wanting  one  .....i  can  tell how  a  cross  does  by  just getting  feed back  on  em .....it  real  easy  for  me    now .....  mine  or  so  line  bred  if  they take  after  anydog  in there  breeding  they'll turnout ..... if  one  isn't  working  out  i  try  to  buy  it  back ..... if  i can  usually  i work it  for a  while  and  sale  it  for  double ....most  of  the time  it  was  the  owner  not  the  dog ......

just  like  well  bred  retrievers ... they'll  fetch when there babies and  they  don't  know  why .....young  well  bred  bird dog puppies  will  just  lock  up  and  point  and  they  don't  know  why .... ITS  BLOODLINE .....


mine  or  bred  to  hunt  and they  have  bay  quality .........

The first BMC dog was registered in 1964 by L.H. Ladner, not that it really matters, but you can call NKC and see for yourself.  Also, he raises more of a tree dog strain.  He has some people using his dogs on hogs, but he doesn't do it himself like the people on this board do.  Not talking bad about H.C., just stating the facts..

"i sale  my  pups ......if  you  give a  pup  away  he   is  worth  zero to the  owner .....if  he  buys  him  he  has money   in him  or  her .....that  means  the  dog  will  get  better treatment  usually ...... also  he  can  make  a few  mistakes and  still  live ...as  they all make  mistakes .....hahahahaha"

All depends on who you are dealing with, their mind set and whether they are wanting to make a dog or worrying over losing a couple of bucks. ;)

I tend to agree with Parker on selling pups. You can read what I posted earlier about my bad experiences giving pups away. Most guys just don't seem to take care of them if they are free. Its almost like they think they aren't worth anything......

Its not about the few bucks you make off the pups. However, it IS fairly costly to raise a litter of pups right. If you put a pencil to it and figure wormer, shots, puppy food, flea stuff, etc plus your time it all adds up.

I also figure my time invested in 27 years of raising these dogs is worth something too. I am sure Larry will agree. He hasn't invested his time on breeding up his dogs to just give them to any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants one.

Its the old adage about supply and demand. I usually have a waiting list for pups, and I get $200-$250 for a pup. I can sell every one I raise, I just choose to not raise many as I only breed a dog when I want a pup. I don't raise dogs just to sell.

I have many repeat customers, as I am sure Larry does, so the small amount they are paying for a pup doesn't seem to discourage them from buying another pup.

Dont get me wrong Crackerc, not saying anything about selling pups. Nothing wrong with that at all. :)

JUst saying not all of us view a cheap/free dog as a throw away dog even though I know a lot do. ;) 

Read what you wrote about the guy w/ the pup, I would have been quite ill myself. >:(

May not have worded my original post the best. Dont do so good transfering thoughts to type some times. rolleyes

I  AM NOT A  DOG  TRADER  OR  PUPPY  MILL ....  i consider  myself a  dogman ....i hunt  squirrel ,coons,hogs and  i have  3  labs  i duck  hunt  with .... i'm  proud  of  my  dogs ...... and  i  like  breeding  and  watching the  young  ones  develope and the  process  of  crossing with in  my  line  and  seeing  what  comes  out .......  i  never  breed a  dog  with  the  thought  of  selling  pups .....i  have  note  books  full  of  names  of  people  wanting  pups  or  dogs .....  i raise  about  2  litters a  year ....there  is  more  people  raiseing  dogs  out  of  my  line  selling them  than  me ....and  they ask  for  more  money than  i  do hahahahah ......  giveing  pups  and  them  being  worth  zero  is a  fact .....

i  have  met  some  super fine  fine  people  from  coast  to  coast  messing  with  dogs ...  i'll talk  your  ear  off  about  dogs ...... so  i  love  the  calls ..... there  is  dogs  from  here  at  my  house  i  bred  and  raised hunting  in  9  different states  i  know  of .....i  can't  fool  that  many  people hahahaha  the  dogs  speak  for  themselves .......i guarantee  the  pups .... and  when  i  sell a  started  dog  or  finished  dog  i like  for  the  person  to  come  here  for a  couple  days  and  hunt  with  me  and  THAT  dog ..... after  that  he  know s wether  he  wants  to  tak e the  dog  on home and  i give a  trial  after  that ......  i love  meeting  the  people  and  visiting .....now days  i  do  more  dang talking than hunting  hahahaha  i  have  gotten  lazy

Pig Snatcher,

No problem, but if you read my earlier posts about free pups, you know why I do what I do. And that is just a small portion of my experiences in giving pups away.........

If a guy spends $200+ on a pup, he is going to take care of it, put it up at night, feed it well, etc. He doesn't want to do anything to lose his investment.
 

Now I KNOW not everyone that gets a free pup/dog doesn't take care of it. I am just talking of my experiences.

My Monkey dog was free as a pup, and I take good care of him. I hunt the hair off of him, when its not 100 degrees, but otherwise he gets taken real good care of.

I used to raise a litter every 3-4 years. I raised one litter, that will be 6 years old in Oct. Since then I have raised two litters of pups. I want to raise a couple more litters in the next couple of years though, as I am down to two breedable females of my line of dogs. They are the ones that will be 6 years old in Oct. (each has had one litter) so I am running out of time on getting pups out of them. Thats why I hunt Monkey more and them less, I am not wanting to get them wrecked or killed as they are my breeding future to maintain what I have.

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen, I appreciate y'all taking your time to respond.


   
Paul,

     I am pretty sure that is how we are going to handle this litter if and when it happens.  It seems that there is a greater monetary cost, but within the litter the nature and the nurture are the same, so nurture is no longer the variable that it might be sending pups to various homes.

         

Parker,
    You must be doing something right, because people seem to know and want your line of dogs.

BigO,

I don't know you, but reading what you typed sure leads me to believe you are a straight shooter. I am not fortunate enough to know very many people that have the same wants in a dog as I might, so sending them to other people to hunt may not get me the type of feedback I am looking for. You are fortunate that you have people that you can send pups to try and that you get honest feedback, and that they look for the same thing you do in a dog.


 I think what makes things so difficult in comparing hog dogs, and "testing" a litters success rate, is that there is no "breed standard" per se   We know with the aussies we raise, that they can be tested in the performance and show ring, and that there are judged events.  It makes it real easy to know if the mating was a success.  First did the pups grow and fall within the established breed standard in regards to temperament and conformation. Then, did the pups excel in their particular field, be it trialing, agility, flyball, etc.  Going back to the hog dogs, everyone wants a little something different. One person may figure if most of the litter grows up and is capable of finding a hog, then they consider that litter a success. Others, may be looking for something more specific, therefore the same litter may have a smaller percentage turn out to be what they are looking for.  At least that is what I have taken from reading this thread and others.

I must have been lumped in with these other guys by accident because I haven't been at it for nearly as long and what I type here is just my opinion from some limited experience . . . but I'll give it anyway.

When I fist began to produce a few pups that people wanted I thought I had turned proffessional. That in itself seems to be a problem in the dog world as so many guys get in and in order to feel like they are in the big leagues and deserve the respect of their peers . . they have to sell pups. In many circles it isn't a matter of how much you catch and what you can do with your own dogs . . it's your pup price and your waiting list. I've sold and shipped pups all over the U.S. from New England to Florida and west as far as Idaho and Utah. I've sent them to Ontario and British Columbia and northern Europe for the Scandinavian Lynx and Brown Bears they hunt in Sweden and Norway. One thing I can say with certainty is that with the possible dubious exception of a $200 to $500 income boost . . . none of those sold pups ever did a darn thing for me or my breeding program. I've sold or swapped them to newcomers who had never raised their own litter and to several hall of fame breeders. The one thing all of those deals have in common is that unless you go hunt personally with those pups after they mature . . . you will never know if they made it or what kind of dog they are. In order to believe in one of those super 90% crosses I sure wouldn't take it on the word of someone I sold a puppy to. But that's just me. I've been down that road and bought dogs from crosses that never produced a cull. Well, the one I bought wasn't a cull either . . but he wasn't the type I wanted to add to my breeding program.

I've gotten feedback on dogs that can cold trail, run and catch a bear . . then skin him and bring him back to the truck before the pup was 9 months old . . . but apparently when I got a chance to hunt with this same dog at two years old he had regressed significantly.

I know of hunters who've bought and raised pups from other folks' breeding just so they could bad mouth the man that produced him and claim the pup never did anything. I know a past president of the American Plott Association who raised another man's pup til he was over a year . . then lead him out of the kennel and shot him without ever turning him loose. Now he is always quick to say he tried and culled one of that man's pups because it was worthless.

All of that is just a part of the reason I quit registering my dogs. I don't want them to go to the guys who breed for paper and I'm just as happy that as unregistered dogs they are only valuable to someone who will hunt them.

You can say what you like about pups that cost nothing being worth nothing . .  but the cold hard fact is that if the $200 puppy price is all that is going to convince someone to work the pup he bought from you then he isn't a dog man at all and doesn't deserve one of mine. Also says a lot about how much demand there really is . . just another example of folks trying this bloodline and that shortcut because they want an easy answer. I'd still rather give a dog to someone who is a friend and I know will hunt it. And I mean hunt it because he is a hunter . . . because he lives to hunt, because he couldn't imagine not hunting a dog that was born and bred to catch game. The world is full of suckers who will buy anything for sale off of the internet or out of the parking lot of a feed store or swap meet. I wouldn't take much pride in selling to them or have much confidence in their evaluation of a dog.

I'm with Silverton and BigO . . I want to see what my pups do for myself because I'm the only one whose opinion counts and I'm the one who hunted with the last however many generations and can really say how this last batch measures up.

I don't sell pups anymore. It suits me better to keep as many as I can and slowly whittle em down to kindlin. Guess that will prevent me from getting famous for producing those 100% litters we all want and hear about. But for starters, I don't need a whole litter to hunt . . and additionally . . . I have never seen eight dogs that were perfectly equal. There's always one that is better . . and that is the one I want. I can't help but think that some folks who produce large litters of dogs that turnout . . . are only hoping for dogs that are good enough to turnout. Myself, I want one that is slightly better than that.

I've seen fellows who are happy if their litters are just good enough to keep the pups from being returned for the guarantee. Not me. I only offer one guarantee. If I have one to spare and I believe you are a hunter who knows how to evaluate THIS type of dog . . you're welcome to it. I guarantee I won't wet myself when you call and tell me how he's baying his own hogs at four months old. I guarantee I'm not gonna kick about it if he doesn't make the grade and gets done away with . . and I guarantee that if he makes some kind of legend I won't ask for any extra money.

I have no evidence for, no reason to and no interest in questioning the integrity or the character of any man who hunts his own dogs and is happy with the results of whatever he does with them. I can't judge what I don't know.

I mentioned the idea of a get-together for hunter/breeders. I want to hunt with some other folks and their dogs. Not in a competition. I don't want to have judges or award cash or prizes or titles or trophies. I just want to hunt with whatever else is out there as another means of evaluating what I'm doing. Maybe learn something along the way.

And Larry Parker. I've heard your name for several years, always favorably. I'd love to hunt with you sometime or at least call you up and b.s. about good dogs.

And one more thing (or two). Howard Carnathan originally registered Bruno in 1978 as a Southern Cur. The first BMC was registered in 1974. Ladner never registered a dog til around 1980 but when he did . . the pedigree he gave for that dog went back to 1964. And with all due respect to those who deserve it . . . commercial breeders like these two are a large part of what is wrong with hunting breeds.

x2-DEAD CENTER!

Well said....

I don't think it is appropriate to talk about people who have passed away like that.  Just because you don't agree with what they do, doesn't mean you are right.  If you want to keep your dogs for yourself you can do that.  However, if other people find a market for pups then they can do what they want. Many a person out there are happy with both of these individuals dogs. You are sounding a bit like some of the gun nuts I have met.  You don't like guns so you want to take them away from everyone else.  You mentioned you have sold many dogs in the past (all over the world), so I want you to list your name as well when you sling mud in the future......Frankly this "holier than thou"  attitude is getting old..

barlow  your  welcome  to  call  me  anytime  to  talk  dogs ......


 i guess  everyone  has there  own  thought  about what  is  what ,,,,all  i know  is  what  i  have  gathered  along the  way .....  i  guess  you  could  say  i  have  an  educated  guess .....hahahaha

Thats the way I was raised.  Keep all the pups that you can hunt, and give the rest to people you know and trust and maybe in the future if you need a pup they will return the favor.  That way they are close and you can still hunt with the dog and evaluate every dog in the litter.    Ive never bought a dog and only sold one grown dog and sometimes I wish I had her back but thats the way it should be or I did'nt have any business selling in the first place. 

Waylon

Mr. Dawson I apologize if my words offended you. Maybe that was over the line and I did not mean to imply that Mr. Ladner was a bad person or anything else. But it is my firm belief based on the real facts that the volume approach to dog breeding does no good in the long run. Anyone who keeps over one hundred breeding gyps on his yard for the commercial dog selling market can not evaluate closely enough and therefore can not hope to consistently produce the quality that I or you should expect. But if you throw out those kind of numbers . . I would think you'd have to produce a few that were good. I am not holier than thou or holy in any other manner. I just hunt as hard as I can and try to breed the best dogs I can for my own use. And I still try to learn something every opportunity I get. If I sound critical . . it is because I am critical of those methods . . not any one man.

When a man starts out in love for his sport  and breeds his dogs and acquires good dogs and keep the quality of his dogs high and the numbers low and  he keeps his family of dogs gene pools clean and culled  and he uses them for himself and his friends the quality of his dogs are at its utmost high.  Then as times goes on he starts to sell a few dogs here and there and then the all mighty dollar enters the picture before long his three are four great brood gyps that he was getting his pups from and he and friends were still hunting most of the offspring  then as this is going on the pup selling starts and his three are four brood gyps   turn into 20 Ca$h Cows on just their  bloodlines alone  having pups year round and all the sudden the quality of his dogs  turns into  quantity and  all for the love on the almighty dollar.  Now the ca$h cows are  rolling and he is addicted and when this happens everything suffers the quality of the dogs and it even effects the breeder as now he is doing things that he once would have never done to keep up with the demand for his pups and is addicted to the cash flow .  Now he is doing 20 - 30 breedings a year opposed to his 3 are 4 back when he was a serious hunter using his dogs himself and friends  culling checking  and now he is turning out all these pups and the funny thing about it his numbers now of good dogs are no higher than they were when he was making his three are four breedings a year now he is just producing  sure numbers quaintly instead of quality .   Its just sure numbers folks hell if I sell 100 - 150 pups a year something has got to turn out on sure luck .  This is were family's of dogs suffer.
Again it all resortes back to the almighty dollar if a man is not making plenty of money in producing 100 150 pups a year then you know damn well he is not going to breed them cause he cannot even begin to hunt them all so that tells you right there what the game is all about.

When you breed more dogs than you can use and keep honest  thats a big warning sign that things are going to quainty not quality  and you have been bitten by the Cash Bug!   

How do yall feel about Randy Wright and the Weatherford Ben bloodline?

Seems that some on this board have taken offense to us that do sell our pups. I am not a dog trader and definately not a puppy mill. You can read my earlier posts, I have raised exactly 3 litters in about 6 years and one of those litters only had 4 pups. I am not going to exactly get rich selling pups at that rate.

I don't understand why you think I should give my pups away. I raised horses for 25 years, have owned up to 150 head of my own cows, managed ranches for 13 years with 500 pairs....and I never had anyone give me a horse or cow.....I see dogs as being no different.

I bred a mare to the NCHA World Champion Stallion, Smart Smokin Pep. I wasn't given the breeding. Bill Kidd raised the horse, trained him and showed him. He had considerable time and money tied up in the stud. Should he give those colts away????  I don't think so....

My dogs are the same way to me. I have a lot of time, money and effort in them. If someone wants one, they can pay for those efforts just as in everything else you buy. That doesn't guarantee they will hunt the dog or that the dog will be a world beater.

You have NEVER seen me claim 80-90% of my dogs make good dogs. Truth is, I couldn't tell you. I have sold dogs to about 5-6 states and lose track of some of them. Then I have guys track me down and want to buy more like the first ones they bought from me. The first ones couldn't have been that bad.

I have had several that said they were the best dogs they ever owned. But to me, that is relative. What may be a good dog to them, may not be a good dog to me, so I don't claim(never have, never will) to have an 80-90% percentage of pups that make GOOD dogs.

All I can say is if you don't want to buy one of my pups, don't. Its that simple. I raise very few litters and have more people wanting pups than I want to raise. There is no "cash cow" at my place or brood gyps. In fact I only have 2 breedable females on my place, both are coming 6 years old in Oct and each have raised one litter.......and I hunted each for 5 years BEFORE I bred them, so I knew what they were capable of.

Not exactly a puppy mill in my eyes.

I don't know Randy Wright, but I think he could sell ice to the Eskimos...... ;D

I myself am not talking about folks like you I understand what you are doing noting wrong with selling a pup here and there are a dog here and there I myself sell a dog now and then and a pup here and there but it is the mass production type that I'm talking about not ordinary people that breed a couple liters here and there and keep the quality of dogs high and breed for themselves.  Other folks that fit in to this is the people that just stick two dogs together and run to www and claim this and that and sell trash .  Not a thing wrong with what you do.

It seems that some folks are getting a little wrapped around the axle regarding selling pups or giving them away. I would imagine that to most, it doesn't really matter what others do one way or the other. I personally see nothing wrong with selling pups...that being said, of the few litters I've had, I've given approximately 80% of the pups to folks who would work them free of charge. It doesn't make my way better, it's just how I choose to do things. I guess that I've been fortunate on the placements, because I've gotten the feedback that I wanted from each and every one of the folks that I placed them with.

There's many different ways to "skin a cat"...

hahahahha  i guarantee  you  i  get  better  than  80 %  that turn  out  to  find  and  bay there  own  hogs ..... some  will always  be better  than  others .....i guarantee the  people  that get a  pup  from me is  very  glad  to  get  em ....... as  high as dog food  is  and  vet  supplies  and  just  raiseing  dogs ....anyone  that thinks  anyone  raiseing and  selling  hogdogs  is  getting  rich  is  crazy ....  i  spend  way  more  than  i  get  back ...... has  anyone  seen  me  advertise  any  dogs  for   sale .....NO ...don't  have  too.....i  get  calls dang near  every night ...

anyone  looking  for a  good  quality  pup is  way  better  off  to  buy  one  from  proven  stock with a  guarantee  ....... that way  if  the  dog  doesn't  work  out  you  can  recover  some  of  your  money ....if  someone  gives  you  one  you  will be  out  all  your  money ......


not  everyone  but  most  people  that  give  away  pups  give  it  i with tagg  attached  ...(if  you  ever  get  rid  of  the  dog  it  comes  back  to  me ).....your  better  off  to  buy a  pup than  take  one  like  that .....i see  more people  with  hard  feeling  over  that  kind  of  stuff ... 

Well, let's see...a free pup from proven stock with a guarantee if the pup doesn't work out, it'll be replaced. The only catch, if it makes a dog, I may want a pup back off of it.

The way I see it, I'd be out all my money if I bought one under the same conditions...

I guess what I'm trying to say is (and this works both ways): do you trust the man (or woman) that you are dealing with will do right by both you and the dog.

To me, it doesn't matter how many litters they've put on the ground, how many pups they've sold, how much they've sold them for, how many they've given away, or how long they've been breeding...if I don't trust they'll do the right thing, I don't want anything from them.

My 2 pennies

That's a pretty bold statement, don't you think.  Do you base your assesment on the fact that you have owned and raised some of his pups and they weren't worth two squirts of urine, or simply due to the fact that he sells a lot of pups?  Fact of it is, is that his DOGS sell his dogs...not his advertising or sales pitch.

Some of the posts on this thread are just straight ignorant.  Some of you think that simply because a person breeds a lot of dogs, or sells their pups that they are the devil.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with making a little extra money off something you have devoted your life to, and basically have "mastered" if you will.

Why don't some of you go to your doctors office and tell the man that because he has mastered the technique, and that he transplants hearts (commercially, and on a daily basis heaven forbid) for a living that you think he should do it for free and that it's just plain wrong that he makes a living with his knowledge.

Guys...it's just as simple as this.  In the dog breeding world, repeat customers are the tale-tell sign.  Speaking directly of Randy Wrights dogs (because those are the only ones I have PERSONAL experience with), I think some of you should call the State of Lousiana and tell them that their official state bear dogs are straight up BS dogs because they came from a commercial breeder.  Then when you finish that call, get the state of New Jersey on the line, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice on the line, and the THOUSANDS of END USERS who have been buying and using his dogs for the past 20+ years and tell them the same thing.  Heck, I can name a BUNCH of users just on this board alone that have his dogs and LOVE them.

In fact, I personally just sold one to Cull Buck on here.  Ask him what he thinks of the dog.  Is he a super-dog?  By no means...but I would say he's far better than 90% of what's out there being traded around.

The question was asked...how do you determine if a litter was a success.  In my opinion, it boils down to this.  If I'm breeding for myself (which I just did, and in fact have my first personal litter on the ground now), and the pups perform as I had hoped then I'm satisfied....it was a success.

I'm not a spokesman 4 any one but this is my experience with Randy Wright's  dog's almost every dog I have goes back to a dog that was bought 12 years ago from R.W. .Anyway my buddy called and bought a young dog from him the dog didn't work out so he called him and R.W.sent him another one that dog is finding hogs in Conroe Tx. A year and a half ago I called and mailed a deposit 2 R.W.'s assoc Steven Dallas (4Dkennels)in N.M the pup was delivered 2 Uncle Earls it didn't live a week I called S.D.he said he'd make it right this year at uncle Earls he brought me a 9mon pup it found its first hog in the woods at 10 1/2 months I don't know R.W. personaly only talk 2 him on the  phone once 2 get S.D.'s #. That's just my experience.

why does  everyone think   everyone  selling  pups is  out  to  hook  them ......

scott  maybe  you  misread  what  i  posted  or  maybe  i din't  make  myself clear enuff ..

i don't  replace  on a  guarantee  i  give  the  money  back  then  if  they want another  they  can  buy  it  when  i  have  them  another  one .....

if  you  get  one  for  free  and  it  doesn't t urn  out  you  or  out everything ....

mine  are  proven reproducers ... do   you understand  proven ....

dogs  from north carolina  to  california finding hogs  for  there  owners .....

hahahaha  this  is  crazy ..... hey  i  bet  ya'll  have  to  end  up  culling  7  of  the give me's  out  of  10

Barlow - Apology accepted.  I am not saying I don't agree with most of what you are saying.  I just didn't think it right to call out people on a message board 1) that has passed away, and 2) that was not here to defend himself.

Parker, if you go back and re-read my posts on this thread, you'd know I don't think that everyone selling pups is out to "hook" someone. I have no problem whatsoever with folks selling dogs...it's their property to do with as they choose.

So, you don't replace on guarantee, you give the money back. Is that just the purchase price or the purchase price plus all costs of raising the dog until it is culled or returned to you?

What exactly is "everything" that you would be out of by taking a free pup off proven producers? And yes, I know and understand what proven producers/reproducers are.

Ultimately, I don't care what anyone else does with their dogs/pups...sell them or give them away, it makes no difference to me. They're not my dogs. But it would seem as though you believe any dog or pup that doesn't have a price tag could never be a quality dog. And, that my friend, could not be further from the truth.

And as for you last comment...in my experience, you are way off on your culling percentage. You see, quality is quality whether you purchase it, or someone trusts you enough to give it to you. The catch is, you have to know what quality is, if you don't, I'd imagine your stated 7 out of 10 to be culls is probable.

Barlow - Back to registering the first BMC.  I know that BMC is a fairly new term the last 30 or so years, but you mention a dog that was registered in 1974.  What dog and what organization?

Bryant,

I have hunted with 11, count them, 11 YBM dogs that came directly from Randy Wright over the past 12 years or so and of those 11, only 1 ever found a hog while I was hunting with it.

The one that DID find a hog by himself (a dog named Wylie), bayed a boar hog in a thicket one night, we heard him get cut as we were on the way in on a cow trail with my Rock dog on a lead to catch the hog. As we were going in, Wylie passed us on the cow trail going to the truck. We went in and caught the hog with Rock, and no bay dog there......So no, I don't think its a bold statement. The Wylie dog was purchsed directly from Randy Wright by a guy named Marty Stevens as a finished hog dog. I have never owned a Randy Wright/WB dog, nor do I intend to.

These are my personal experiences hunting with dogs directly from Randy Wright and I have witnesses that were on every hunt.

I am sure he must has produced some good dogs,as many as he has raised,  but I haven't hunted with them.

Official state bear dogs??? Are you telling me the WB dogs are now state bear dogs??? And the people in New Jersey are hunting them too(course they probably don't know which end of the dog wags in N.J.)  LOL   Man I have heard it all now...

Larry Parker, you, I and the other guys that have  Brand X dogs need to just cull what we have and get the WB dogs. They catch hogs, work cows, trail prisoners, tree bears, wash your truck, go to the store and get beer for you, etc.......LOL

Very interesting.  I will tell you that of all the MANY people that I pesonally know that have and use these dogs, you are in the minority.  Like I said before, they are no superdog (and I do not use them exclusively) but I feel they are well bred dogs that serve their purpose.  In my opinion, Randy (whom I know personally) has a better grasp on canine genetics that anyone else I have even known or spoken with.


I not going to waste my time proving what is fact.  Paul & Maria Davidson (game biologists for the state of LA) are keepers of Lousiana's state dogs and in fact the dog I sold Cull Buck is a pup from the Lousiana dogs.

Quickly, here's something I had bookmarked.  I call your attention to the bottom of page twelve of this article.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep//fgw/pdf/2004/bear_report04.pdf (http://www.state.nj.us/dep//fgw/pdf/2004/bear_report04.pdf)

Perhaps they don't "know which end of the dog wags in N.J.", but I would imagine they (along with other states) had the money to buy whatever they felt like was the best.

I will say no more...

"A fool and his money are soon parted"...truer words were never spoken. And the state of New Jersey, like other states, is run by politicians spending tax payers money on something they know nothing about.

How many dogs do you actually think the people from NJ went and HUNTED with prior to buying dogs? I would bet none or very few. They sat in an AC office, researched them on the internet and found some "wonder dogs" that were for sale.

Its easy to think you have the best dogs around when you haven't  been to the woods with many.......

Not trying to get in a pissing match, I have just been in this game a long time and know how things work.

 scott ....  the   pups  are  guaranteed ..... thats  it ....purchase  price .....  sometimes  i  fork  outa  good bit  more  than  i  sold  em  for  to  get  em  back  for  breeding  stock ..... you  can  find the  best  dog  you  ever  owned standing  on  side  the  road  somewhere .... but how  many  you have  to  go  through  to  get  one  good  one .....it  and  investment  even  if the  pup  is  free ....  if  its free they  usually  want  it  back if  you get  rid  of  it ....

fact  is  fact ...you WILL NOT   get the  caliber  dog  i  raise  consistantly from  freebies or  give me's ...i  don't  care  who  believes  it  or  not  i  get  better  than  90 %  turn out  on  most  every  litter ....thats  just a  fact ....if  any  of  you  don't  believe  it  come  see..... go  to  my  web board  and  ask  the   people  that  own  em ....

Bryant and Crackerc... consider that it is possible that you are both right. It is possible for one man to have a string of bad luck with a certain line, and another man to have really good run with that same line. It is possible... just sayin'.

Actually, they hunted and watched the dogs work with two other states.  They were satisified that the dogs would suit their intended purpose, so they bought pups...mimic'ed the training techniques of others and are satisfied with what they have.  What more could they ask for?

Please don't think I'm trying to get into a argument, either.  I've also been in this game a long time (not as a breeder) and have my own opinion of how things work.  

You know what *I* think is the biggest demise to the hunting breeds of dogs?  Every Tom, Dick, and Harry "back-yard breeder" breeding half-cocked dogs and flooding the market with these $50 piece of junks that get passed from person to person until finally someone else ends up with them and breeds them AGAIN!  This is one of my biggest pet peaves...sounds so simple, yet there are those who simply don't understand that great dogs are not produced by crossing junk.



WAARHEID,

I agree, and what you state is what I could see being so difficult about breeding for the public.  Everyone's expectations can vary. (But I will agree with crackerc, that ALL should at least FIND a hog!)

I am not endorsing Randy's line of dogs.  I have owned, raised and hunted some but honestly there is one thing about the dogs that I don't prefer and that's the fact that they tend to be closer range hunting dogs.  VERY GOOD, and I would not hesitate to say above average dogs, but nonetheless but I'm sticking with what works best for ME and my style.

Parker, I think your missing the point....if some one has a program (like your self lets say) you don't think if you farmed or gave one to a like minded hunter it would not turn out...I think you are useing freebies and gimmie dogs in refrence to internet  classified junk not well bred and thought out breedings from solid lines of dogs,I have had and have some pretty good dogs given in friendship...some worked real good others did not,have had better luck w/ friends vs the high dollar promoted type dogs...culled many more of them than the others.

Bryant, (cool name by the way)

I think (and Larry would probably agree) that giving pups away to people you know and trust is very different that just giving away to anyone..at least that's the way I see it.

Very cool name indeed lol....I agree w/you, konowing Scott I think Larry was missing what Scott was getting at as I don't beleive that he (Scott) just hands dogs out to anyone. I myself very seldome sell a terrier...too many years of work in them for anyone else to have them and breed them different than my plans,usually keep the whole litter between myself and partner,eval them cull them and work what works...

Thanks Bryant, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

You know what *I* think is the biggest demise to the hunting breeds of dogs?  Every Tom, Dick, and Harry "back-yard breeder" breeding half-roostered dogs and flooding the market with these $50 piece of junks that get passed from person to person until finally someone else ends up with them and breeds them AGAIN!  This is one of my biggest pet peaves...sounds so simple, yet there are those who simply don't understand that great dogs are not produced by crossing junk.

Bryant you could not have hit the nail on the head any harder with this statement !
Very well said , very , very well said!

This hurts the game as bad as anything does.   I will say this if you give a dog away to a friend and if he is a real friend that wants to hunt and knows the kind of dogs you have he will respect that dog but you cannot just give anybody a dog most people think they know the everything there is to know about a hunting dog and end up not knowing Jack.  You give a man a dog like this and because he has not paid his hard earned money for it he does not respect the dog and the dog gets abused because of it.  I have given more dogs away than I think I have ever sold and I have found this to be true nearly 100% of the time they just don't respect the dog as much as they would as if they paid you good money for it .

If  I got a breeding program going on and I make a breeding and have pups I have put that breeding together expecting the best are I would not have made the breeding I don't see how I could tell if the pup I was giving away was going to be any less dog than the one I was selling  from another breeding .  How can you know this being bred from the same family of dogs ?  When I make breedings from any one of my dogs the offspring all have the potential to make great dogs because of there Dad and  Mom and genetic history behind them so how can I give one away knowing he wont end up being the best dog I ever produced,  I don't understand that.

I will say this I'm sure there are some great breeders out there that produce a large amount of dogs to the public that still care about the dogs and try there best to put out the best they can but on the other hand there is a large amount of commercial breeders out there that don't give a damn about noting but papers on a dog and money in t here pocket and  ,  I got to admit I'm sure not every breeder that produces a large about of pups has bad intentions and do still care about the dogs and there heritages and tried to keep them with in the range of greatness,

All dogs are not producers, so it is possible.  I hunt Ben dogs off of yellow jacket one of his sons (I believe the best producer).  So, I can't really debate the rest of the dogs, other than I have heard some similar results as crackerc mentions, particularly among the bounty hunter strain...All I know is I love the Jack dogs and of the few litters I have had (and the several friends have had), I don't personally know of any dogs that wouldn't at least bay a hog and most make good find dogs.  

DG . . . this is all from memory but I want to say the dog was registered in April of 74 with Tom Stodghill's Animal Research Foundation by a man in Florida. Bruno wasn't born til October of 74. A fellow that I know called the registries and did some asking a few years back when the "first registered BMC" debate was going on . . . on another site. I did speak personally with the previous owner of NKC and he told me the timeline and circumstances on the first Ladner dog being registered.

I've owned a dog or dogs from Ladner and Carnathan breeding and while both produce some usable dogs . . neither of those bloodlines produce many of the type I prefer. But we all hunt differently and I'm looking for a special dog.

I've never even layed eyes on a dog from Larry Parker or Randy Wright so when I post about my preferences or my experiences or what I choose to do with my dogs I hope it isn't being taken as a slight against either of them. I know there are a lot of hunters who like what they've gotten from both of those breeders and that must count for something.

As for the family of dogs standing in my backyard . . there are probably a lot of folks with better hog dogs. I hunt several days a week with Bob Owens and I get my ass handed to me regularly . . . but that's by a man with older, finished hog dogs who has been breeding towards one goal for over 30 years vs. this Yankee and some young, bear bred Plotts. I have a ways to go, for sure. Now, if any of you would like to see how yours do on bears then bring your best and let's go.  ;) It's a different sport.

I know that from these dogs that I have bred . . . every one I ever sold or gave or traded away made a good to great dog except one that I know of. That was a young female pup and she was re-sold at nine months old and her second owner says she made an excellent dog and he's now bred two litters out of her. That is a 100% success rate. As for the ones I keep for myself from those same litters . . . seems like I get about one in ten that pleases me. Either I'm a lousy hand with dogs or I'm lousy at picking pups or some folks are more easy to please.

what  i hunt  is  about  as close  to  being  a  hound  and  not  being a  hound ..... probably  some  of  the  old  mountain  cur  in there  blood ..... 

That pretty much sums up the truth of this whole thread right there. Thank you Barlow.   :-X 8) :-X

Barlow makes pretty good sense there....Can I ask what the 9 out of 10 get culled for?  Is there something the are consistently missing, or is it a differnt combination of things..  In other words, do you think they are missing something genetic, or could they possbily not be showing you what you want early enough.  I am just trying to see the differnces in the picky people and some that aren't so picky.

I know that you want a dog that goes and finds game and hunts hard.  You want one to go as far as he can to bay game.  What I am trying to find out is what else you cull for that maybe the average hunter wouldn't

Just trying to learn as much as possible about different hunting styles...

The thing on percentagest to me is, it's really all but a moot point without more knowledge on who is establishing the benchmark for what that is as well as their definition of what good is and what a cull is. I really dont think hearing it is good enough either. That is something that sure isnt universal. I mean, it's like what a cull is to one man is like the same thing as the definition of what good is. I promise you that criteria, definition and standards are all over the board, every person has their own. I see it hunting wtih people from everywhere and have for years.  How are you going to know what any man's criteria or standards truely are for sure  without seeing it and seeing it first hand and on several occasions with several different dogs? I promise ya listenting to them may sure not establish that, at least for me. Yep, I have seen some awful good ones but by in large, that wasent the case.
This percentage thing  when talking about numbers is also deceptive. Big O talks about his percentages... Knowing BigO like I do and hunting with him for the many years I  have hunted with  him, I seriously doubt there is a man alive who has any stricter definition of what good is or what a cull is or what just a decent dog is than he applies to  his OWN dogs.  Now he dont set there and judge your dog if you are in the woods with him, he honestly dont care and proud for you if you are happy with it,  he is watching  and judgemeing his own dogs, every minute of every hunt. He aint gona say a word about yours unless you ask. I have seen a many a dog he culled, didnt like  or was using short term that he just considered a decent dog,that completely satisfied another man. It's this way in the woods with him,  How many people go to the woods and only see and talk about the few good things a dog dose and ignore the 20  things he did bad or didnt do when they are going to place a tag on him or judge him ?  
Bottom line those percentage numbers are are based on opinions and are skewed in terms of what one mans definition are and what another mans definition may be. In his case, his percentages might be 90% for one man yet, 10% for him. Same goes for other folks I know well.



 Mr Parker..I think Barlow is correct about wanting to come hunt with you if you would allow it. I myself would love to come down and hunt with you and your dogs to see all this for myself. I havent found it yet but I am always looking for a better line of hog dogs and try to keep a open mind about such. If you got em, I sure may do all I can to get some of them. I am not doubting you, just one of those old boys that should be from Mo. and have to litterly see it to be satisfied.  
 I have been to the woods with guys over the years who had a dog they said was a parker cur or that they had parker curs. That is something you just never know for sure is the truth or not. I would like to see them go several times and would like to know some folks in this part of the world or at least somewhere in east texas who have the real mccoy that I could maybe go hunt with. ( Athens, Texas area )
 Thanks, look forward to hearing from you.

LACK OF IMPROVEMENT. HaHa.

It just depends. Sometimes it's just the fact that I know I only wanna keep one and I keep weedin thru em til I choose what I think is the best. There's always gonna be one that's the best.

Track speed or that ability to go from grubbing out a tough track to picking the head up and shifting into high gear has been a factor a few times. It seems to come as a learned trait in this line of dogs. At young ages they make determined track dogs and will take the first one they come to and try to work it out even if the track is beyond their skill or experience level. And at that stage they can tend to babble a bit on track. Both of these things improve with hunting. They learn to solve problems and make guesses about trailing and they learn that once the trail starts to heat up they no longer have to stick their head in it. They also start to open less and less til you can tell pretty clearly what they are doing based on how they open. I have a young gyp now that is almost silent or sometimes is silent til she locates and begins to bay.

Late starters. I always figured that late starters more often produce late starters so I don't want to go down that road and end up keeping dogs for two years to see what they'll do. Some argue that late starters may make the best finishers but I just don't have the patience.

Timid. Have given up on a few because they were man shy or because of a similar trait that runs in these dogs. Isn't the same as being shy but they are a little overly sensitive and can not take a scolding and certainly not an ass whipping.

Lack of desire. Have seen dogs that will climb in a bear's pocket and fight for all their worth, but when he breaks and leaves out they come back to the truck. To me that is just a lack of desire and a fatal flaw. Lack of desire manifests itself in plenty of other ways in other lines but this has been my experience twice now within this family. I will not tolerate a quitter.

Size or conformation concerns. This may sound stupid to some folks but going back on one side of this family of dogs there are some size issues. I can trace it back for you to about 1930 in my pedigrees. If it goes unchecked you'll end up with 25 and 30 pound dogs and that is too small for me. I had a nice young gyp that was about 28 pounds and I bred her to a right-sized male and only kept right sized pups and am being careful and culling for size with that side of the family til I know I have it under control. If you look you'll find that nothing happens without a reason. The dogs behind this size issue in my dogs pass on a hereditary thyroid problem. The Thyroid affects growth. Can also lead to early onset sterility. So, in a sense I'm not culling for size . . I'm culling for a hereditary thyroid condition when it manifests itself as a size problem.

But on the other hand I've raised dogs that others might have culled just because I had a good feeling about them. I don't think you can take the human condition out of your breeding program no matter how hard you try. We are all susceptible to liking a pup based on some silly thing it did as a 4 week old baby or because he looks like old so and so . . and we'll keep giving them special treatment or extra opportunities. That's the difference between our culling and that of Mother Nature. She don't give a damn about cute or sentimental. You'll never see a retarded or deformed deer who lives to breed in the wild just because his great grand dad had a 20 point rack.

Very good points made by several guys in this post. I don't know it all or have all the answers, all I have to go by is what I have seen in the woods. I have hunted behind many dogs in the past 30 + years , owned by me and many other people, and have seen a few real good dogs, several good dogs, a bunch of average dogs and a whole bunch that probably need to be pushing up roses somewhere......

I am sure there are some good W Ben type dogs out there or they wouldn't be popular. I just have never hunted with one that I liked...not yet anyway.

All my dogs don't make "good" dogs I am sure, but again, "good" is kind of like "beautiful"...its in the eye of the beholder. What is good for one guy may not make the grade for someone else.

I think the difference in my dogs is, I hunt one dog out most of the time. If the dog doesn't go hunting, find, stop, bay and/or catch a hog alone, or catch with a catchdog, over and over again, under different hunting conditions and places it isn't a "good" dog to me and won't stay here. Lots of you guys hunt several dogs out and thats fine, I have no problem with that, its your style. As long as you don't have 10 bay dogs and 2 bulldogs on a 60 lb sow anyway.....

I don't want a dog that relies on another dog to go with it, to hunt. Thats not my style. But I am sure it doesn't suit everyone and thats okay.

Sounds to me like I may want one of Bob's best culls .   How do you go about getting one of those?  You know, one of those that made it up until the last hurdle so to speak ;D

I hope we get back to that point pretty soon Greg..   Best older dogs are either gettin to old or got killed this year, some younger ones  have had to step up and doing ok with it.  Been a rough couple  years around here for our dogs.  We're Pretty hopful about hookin up with clue this year and doing some breeding for each other and swapin some pups around,, Several of us are all  are trying to beed strong back into the old dogs that sired  the litter Henry and Bob's old Punch dog  was in.   We always have used that  Punch dog as the foundation for our dogs, but we got short  in the last few  years.  . We;ve  got several nice pups to start this fall inbred back to the old dogs, pretty hopeful about them. If one comes along, I'll let ya know.

thanks...I would love to have some of that blood that made ben famous..

well , in fairness, I dont know how much credit any one dog, one breeding or one person can take for that sucess. I'll say this, The family resemblence for generations is kind of spooky sometimes to me. Something is real strong in how those genes want to line up with the right two dogs. There were a lot of things that fell into place over time and a lot of good things and bad things were done. I can understand   how one line within a line  seemt to be better.  I am sure there are stories on both sides of the fence and lord only knows which of em are accurate, embellished,  true or false or just talk.. Either way, like all dogs, you bet good breeders doing good things amd proving them, they will produce their share. And I will say this, when it comes to  traditional stock dogs, They never made a better breed of dogs than those ET kind of dogs that Henry and punch came from period. It carries on for generations, I see it strong even today several generations down the road. They are not gods gift to the entire dog world but are well suited for their purpose and gifts. And yes, they all come with culls especially for the the man who is ruthless in his standards and works to proves them every day.
Greg, your welcome to breed a gyp if you like. I know how these are bred and what made them, right wrong or indifferent, you can count on many many years of something accurate and some people mostl folks never heard of that really use dogs hard.The breedingmale we have left is real tight bred to those old dogs and that group of brothers and sisters have been good proven dogs and producers for many  years. Some better than  others, not all of em, but most of em at least decent. 

thanks...I appriciate it very much..

Gregg Dawson

Hey Dawson check out my post on the( Lets see em) thread page 4, see if the third dog down is familiar

Looks just like one of my dogs.  Looks a bit younger I would guess younger than a year old because he still has the knot on his head.  Some of the old timers used to say that knot meant  a smart dog..I don't know about that, but his head is growing for sure hahahah


Pretty dog though for sure... You told me you ran into some ben dogs, have you put them on game yet?  I know it has been hot...

Actually that's a 2 or3 year old gyp that came from Jake Smith and Kory H. I called K.H. awhile back if I understand right she goes back 2 Durrets trapper&dixie

Then she is a full sister  to my main dog.  TrapperII is a son of Yellow Jacket and Dixie is out of Red Burkhart's Cowboy  and a Sims female (Wright's Tia Sims) The burkhart dogs were some of the first dogs registered with foundation.  I bet she is an athletic sucker?.  How is she doing?

She's doin real good findin hogs plenty bottom and fast as greased lightning ;D do U live in Buna

Yep, I live in Buna..

I live between Burkville Tx and Leesville La. right across the sabine river

man, I had you confused with yelladog.. Anyway, I know exactly where that is, I grew up in Louisiana on the Mississppi river, when I head home, I cut through leesville all the time.. Lots of timber between jasper and leesville..  Pretty good deer too for East Texas..

Big town of Burr Ferry  I tried talkin 2 Kory a couple times a while back his phone kept messing up trying 2 find out if my gyp has any papers

Tell me where you got the dog and anything else you know.  I will check it out for you..

PM sent!