EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

20, 15, and even 10 years ago when my dogs bayed a hog, 99% of the time it was all over with! Finding the hogs was the challenge back in those days for me and catching them was the icing on the cake(the easy part!)! If it was multiple hogs no problem. It didn't take the dogs long to track them all up and we would soon catch them. In other words, if the dogs initially found say 5 hogs together then we would end up catching most of them if not all eventually. Im not just bragging on my old dogs either . Most of the hog hunters I knew got those kind of results in those days.
If a hog broke a bay in those days it was rare that it traveled for more than 100 yards before the dogs shut it down. I have them run for miles these days on a regular basis!
For example just last weekend we bayed a group of hogs and managed to get one caught pretty quick. When the smoke cleared after catching the 1st hog we ended up traveling 1.57 miles to catch another hog that was with the same group we bayed to begin with. We managed to catch one more hog from that group that went almost 1.5 miles in a different direction entirely!
In summery - only 3 hogs caught covering over six miles out of a heck of a lot more that was found in that group initially.
It didn't used to be that way thats for sure.
Rare was the time when you came across a "bad runner" back in the "better good old days". These days it seems to be the norm!
I have my theories on why these hogs are adapting and running like they are on fire but I would really like to hear the thoughts of other hog hunters on the subject and what they are doing to adapt themselves. - BoarNinja

I'm not a pig herder or a hog farmer. I don't need to catch a dozen pigs a day to feed a family. I don't do it to protect my crops or yours or some millionaire's golf course. I hunt for sport and I choose to hunt the most worthy (sporting) quarry available.

Up until now I mainly hunted bears. Last fall I bear hunted the Upper Peninsula of Michigan six days a week from July 10th til October 26th. Our average race was somewhere in the neighborhood of eight miles. In the past I've explained this to several hog hunters and they ask why I didn't use faster dogs that caught the bear sooner. The fact is . . bears run about five to ten miles per hour faster than the fastest dogs. I love bear hunting and it is the difficulty that makes it so exciting . . and so rewarding when you tree one. The main reason I'm hog hunting now is because I can stay in one location and hunt year round without having to move from state to state to follow the seasons, etc.

I came to Texas because of the running, fighting hogs. I enjoy the challenge. I've heard several dog owners (I wouldn't call them hunters) talk about breeding the Russian out of the hogs in Alabama. They just cut all of the Russian looking boars and release the domestic looking slower ones. But instead of breeding in domestic farm hogs . . . I wonder . . why not use Pot-Bellied Pigs? Breed the legs and size completely off the hogs and then you could hog hunt with any dog you found on the side of the road or at the dog pound? Or . . . why not breed in some guinea pig and then we could catch em with dip nets? Maybe the answer isn't hog hunting at all. If you don't like the races and the fighting . . get a squirrel dog. You can hunt them with one 10 pound dog and catch your limit within a hundred yards of the house. And next fall, instead of hunting Michigan or West Virginia black bears . . I could go to Australia and hunt Koalas.

Of course I'm teasing . . . and don't really mean any offense . . but think about it. If you breed weaker adversaries instead of improving yourself, your methods and your dogs . . . you are taking the challenge out of it. Without the challenge . . what is there?

But here's something to think about.

Hogs do learn quickly. And adapt easily. It only takes a time or two of one breaking and getting away to learn that's what he or she needs to do to live. Then the sow raises a litter and breaks bay with her babies and they learn from an early age how to get away. So all of the times you hear of the hunters who prefer a dog who won't stick with a running hog . . . a dog that quits after thirty minutes so the hunters can go find easier prey . . you are listening to why the rest of us are dealing with the situations described at the top of this page. They are training hogs. Maybe eventually they'll train all of them and then their thirty minute dogs won't work anymore. Then you'll stop seeing so many dog boxes.

But when the going gets tough . . the tough turn proffessional. Myself, I like a dog who won't quit. I love those all day races and walking bays on a bad boar. I look forward to having to constantly breed a tougher, smarter, grittier, faster dog in order to keep up. And while I may bitch and moan the entire time it's going on . . it's the ones that get away that keep me coming back.

Barlow, I totally agree with your explination of why they run.  I like a dog that has unlimited bottom, but its getting hard to run those dogs. 

I enjoy long range dogs also that will stay with a hog till the bitter end. Although here in Texas most of the land is privately owned. There has been many documented cases where trespassing has led to many dogs being shot. The high fence came in and the long range dog has been locked out. Unless you have access to 10k, 20k, and 30k ranches even then dogs will range across the property lines of others you don't have permission to hunt. And in that case it really bites.

It is for this that many people like short range, gritty cur dogs and the computer argument of cur dog or hounds. Pit or dogo. We all hunt different scenerios guess that's why we have so many different breeds to choose from.

I think you're right about hogs learning to run. Seems like they are more skidish than deer now days from being shot at and chased so much. But I also think that dogs have changed too. In the old days when a dog was a nesescity, not so much a pet, they were much more heavily culled by the oldtimers. People couldn't afford a big pack of dogs back then and every dog was a great hunter if it wasn't culled. Our society just dosn't accept that kind of culling these days. Cull dogs, now days be come pets and are usually bred sometime during their life, diluting good lines somewhere along the way.

I agree with Coach. If I had unlimited property to hunt, where the dogs could go for miles and still be on property I had permission to hunt, I would have a few long range dogs that would run a  hog all night.

As it is in Fla though, hunting places keep getting smaller (and fewer) and I have no use for a dog that will go for miles.

I use close/medium range gritty dogs as thats the type dog that is suited for where I hunt. You bring one of your dogs that will run 5-6 miles down here and turn him loose and odds are you will never see him again. He will be run over or shot by an angry landowner where he wasn't supposed to be.

So don't blame the running hogs on those of us with closer hunting dogs, its just a sign of the changes in the way a lot of us have to hunt.

I use to have that problem till I went to ruff dogs and I mean ruff and ones that stick.  I got tired of all the 5 mile runs and come up empty handed .  Noting wrong with a loose dog if he can get the hog stopped but I didnt have much luck with them on big bad boars that were already educated.  These dogs of mine all wear catch vest and heavy duty bay vest for a reason and it has saved them many many times , yes I sew up dogs still but not near as much before I started running all vest .  We catch and leg hogs on a regular basis 275 lbs and most the time no problem with no catch dogs .  Yes I have lost three dogs in three years but I dont go on near as many long runs no more and thats what made a beleiver out of me in Vest .  When this pack is together  and healthy no many get away anymore.  I run four dogs in a pack most the time Cj , War Dog both brindle leopard curs silent  and a bitch I call Blu who is Leopard cur/Bmc  and silent  and a dog I call Mississippi who is full blooded plott and almost silent on track and every now I throw in a Blue Lacy called Bell A ball grabber if I want to run five  , when they are together its  a pretty thing to watch .

This years been a hard year all have been cut pretty badly and the pack has been one less here and there sometimes two and then we have had to deal with all this heat so its been a ruff year caught lots of hogs but not near as many as we usally do.

CRAP DOGS EDUCATING  RUNNING HOGS ARE PEOPLE USING THE WRONG KIND OF DOGS ON BIG BAD HOGS  AND WONT CHANGE ,  WOULD BE MY GUESS .

THERE IS A FEW AROUND HERE THAT RUN ANY KIND OF DOGS THEY CAN GET THERE HANDS ON IF HE BARKS AT A HOG IN THERE EYES HE IS A HOG DOG!


TEXASHOGDOGS

I agree with coach completely.

i agree with coach an texashogdog 100%

Coach hit the nail on the head... imagine what it's like here in Florida... 1/4 the size of Texas, throw in a huge mass of snowbirds/land developers...  then the advantage of short dogs becomes apparent.

I understand that completely. But do you breed for dogs that get the job done quicker (rougher/faster) or employ methods towards that end . . . or do you just use dogs that quit and/or give up easy on tough hogs?

Everyone's situation is different. Hunt all night catch 3 big boars, or catch one big boar and sit back and sew everything up for the next 2 hours and be done for the night not to mention maybe a week or two. Like I said it may be for me may be for you but may not be for all. It's perfectly fine that's what gives us something to write about. LOL what do you think?

You really think it's the dogs not the hogs. I tend to believe that the hogs have changed a great deal since I started hunting and trapping hogs in south Louisiana forty years ago. To me the hogs were shorter legged, longer and not near as athletic as the critters I run into know. I don't think you can breed the Russian out of today's hogs. I think they are only going to get genetically closer to the Russian boar. In the wild which Boar hog is going to breed more sows, the aggressive and athletic boar or the more docile domestic cross boar. I can remember catching hogs that were really close to domestic farm pigs. I tend to think that is why hogs a spreading up north now.  The true Russian boar can tolerate subzero climate conditions. The old feral hog couldn't take the weather conditions in the winter in Ohio or Michigan. I am amazed when I ride up on horseback on a sounder of hogs and they turn and burn, the five border collies we use for cows can't get close to them. I have seen dogs getting bigger and more specialized. Who twenty years ago can remember anybody having dogo's, pit bull, great Dane and all the catch dog crosses there are now.. You might have a pack of ten to fifteen dogs.  It was all gritty cur type dogs, they found the hogs, bayed the hogs and then caught the big critters.  I don't think we had a dog much over fifty pounds. The big dogs were a handicap in the swampy areas we had to hunt on.  Just something for you fellas to mull over.  Everyone needs to be careful in this heat,  don't just think about your dogs, make sure you have water or something to drink in the woods with you. Doesn't do you a bit of good to have a cooler full of ice five miles from were your at. I pack a gallon igloo water bottle my four wheeler  every time I am out.

-A dog that goes miles on a hog is not necessarily a better dog. There are definatly dogs who shut hogs down and dogs that dont. IF you put really loose dogs behind a hog that runs at the first bark... you will have a long night. As well as if you put an overly gritty dog on a hog and push it... you will have a long night. IF a dog is screwing up... it will screw up for 2 miles or for 1/10 of a mile.

-Alot of people put these pieced together packs and are more concerned about telling you where they came from and how much they paid. They won't swallow their pride and say... this dog does not work for me... if they even notice. One "Bay Buster" dog will get you every time. Especially watch those that hunt with you... like they are going to tell you they have a crappy dog. :D

-The hunting methods of some people contribute to alot of lost hogs; driving up too close to the bay (especially with atvs), crashing 10 people thru the brush behind a catch dog before the hog is caught, have social hour when hunting, ect...


To say that a dog that quits after 30 min causes hogs to run is not complety true. The big problem is the quality of hunters and dogs has declined because of basically being watered down. People don't evaluate their dogs performance, think back on the hunt to what they could do better, try different methods... and no gps tracker or any other piece of technology can do that.

I hunt short range dogs. I am there to hunt a certain area that I am getting paid to protect. I am not there to put food on the table or for the sport. The places get hunted any where from 1 to 3 or 4 times a week. If the hog runs, you wait a day or two and get back on it. It may take two or three times but you switch it up a little and shut the hog down.

I guess if you have a stick with it dog, it can keep screwing up until the hog finally tires out? Alot more factors out there than just 30 min dogs causing it. ;)

With the dogs I hunt with, I believe they're bred rougher/faster, which makes gang piling this sort of dog dangerous.  I could vest these dogs up, run them together and probably catch a higher percentage than I do now...  however, I feel hunting these dogs 1-2 at a time is safer for them in the long run though.  As much time as it takes to get these dogs trained, I don't want to just throw 'em in a meat grinder to catch a couple more hogs. 

I've got two full sisters(Shiner and Chub), one is genetically longer range, one is genetically short.  For the short dog, it's almost like she's got an internal pedometer...  she works great, but once outside 500yds, she'll disengage, return, and go right back to hunting.  Now this has nothing to do with how tough the hog is, it's just that her "breaker trips" at a certain range.  This really is nice when you're on small properties or don't feel like pulling out the tracking equipment... I'll also use this dog when I'm hunting around certain people... property owners tend to get real bored when I'm gone for hours tracking to a bay...a short dog like this keeps their attention, more "quick" hunts/bays to entertain newbies with short attention spans ;) ;D  I'm actually hoping she stays like this, opens a lot more places up to hunt.

ya'll  can  say  what  you  want  but  when  your  dog  quits a good  hog  and  comes  back  after  about  20  minutes  your  all  cussing ......facts  is  everyone  braggs  on  what they  are  feeding ......there  has more  one  arguement  after  another  on here  about how  to  breed  better  dogs... and  what  lines  make  the  best ......now  its  like  some  of  ya'll  want  lesser  dogs .....do  you  breed  with the  intensions  of  raiseing  dogs  that  want  run a  hog  very  long ....if  you  do  that  why  there  are  so  many  culls  around ....hahahahaha  the  better  dog always  is  the  last  one  you  catch  off the hog ....

You know it ;D  Necessary evil sometimes though...

I love internet theories! rolleyes

Say what y'all want, but everyone gets out ran... long, medium, short range... rough and loose.

This is my opinion from my experience from hunting with rookies and way back "old timers". ;)

Hogs are evolving... nothing like they were 10 plus years ago.

i've  actually  bayed  way  more  hogs  with  one  loose  baying  dog  no  doubt ......

about the russian  hogs i  don't  like  emmyself .......regular  hogs  start  running  after  been  dogged  alot ....butthr  russians  don't  reproduce  as  well  as  the   ferals ....smaller  litters  and  they  will  run  off  and  leave  em  to  fend  for  themseleves......also  jump a  group  of  russian  hogs  ina place  don't  exspect  to  jump  em again  for  a  while .......i  got  russians  hogs  here  not  by  my  choice  forsure .....

Parker, that is the best way i've found, bar none, in places where there are bad running hogs. ;D

My dogs are plenty rough. Any rougher and they would be running catch dogs and I would either have wrecked dogs all the time or be out of dogs entirely.  Just last year I had one dog get a broken jaw and one cut down and bled out, and these are cur dogs. And thats hunting one or two dogs out, not packs, and no bulldog.

And I STILL don't catch every hog I get after. I do stop a large percentage of them though.

I think the hogs are smarter than they were as there are more people dogging them than there used to be. Every teenage kid around here has a bulldog/cur/cross in the back of his pickup and he will hunt off the side of the roads, poach, or hunt 20 acre spots. Most of the dogs are junk that they got from the pound or a mistake breeding someone had. They get after a hog, maybe bite it, then cause the hog to run. That hog survives and learns if it runs, it gets away. The hog that stands and bays is usually a caught or dead hog around here.

I think there is a misconception too, about a long RANGE dog that will go a long ways to FIND a hog and a dog that will RUN a hog a long ways. They may not be the same dog. My dogs don't range far, but when they get after a hog they usually stay with it for a while.

When I hunted with Noah a few weeks ago, I took Monkey to a strange place he had never been before, turned him out with people he had never been around and a pup that doesn't know whats going on yet.

Monkey found a hog bayed it, it broke and he bayed it again almost out of hearing. Noah turned his Ellie dog to him and they wound up bayed a mile off the property (more than that from where Monkey first bayed) and Noah caught the hog with his bulldog.

So my point is, a short range dog can stay with a hog until he gets it stopped. Its just how long or how far do you want one to go before its too far?? To me, a mile is plenty far enough. If they had gone 5 miles who knows if we would have gotten them back?

As far as loose baying dogs, I haven't had much luck with them here. I have a buddy that has one and he kept talking about 5-6 hour "races". Turns out his dog is walking next to the hog barking and the hog is going where it pleases as it has realized the dog isn't going to bite it. I saw this dog do this several times once going for 5 hours and across a 12,000 acre lease.

I want my dogs to put teeth on one to stop it, then back up and bay. They may get cut more, but I stop more hogs that way than with the loose baying dogs  and I have had both.

A good friend of mine had a heck of a strike dog, a petite little redbone gyp that was as good a find dog as there was.  This dog would walk beside and BooHoo a hog all day long, but without something that would go to her and actually sit the hog down, you just weren't gonna walk a CD in and get anything done...

Loose baying is great if the dog is rough as hell, but if he isn't, it's just a find dog telling the hogs to get ready.

Is this the type of loose you're talking about Parker?

I've seen more hogs bay up with a dog that never touches it than with dogs that put there teeth on them. Whenever one gets too rough... it's off to the races. Now, some people that run rough dogs do catch a bunch of hogs... but the big ones usually wreck their pack and walk away. I ran rough dogs for several years when I first started... then I seen the light. ;D

We can debate this all day long, there's no right way or wrong way. As long as you're catching hogs with you're dogs... that's all that matters. ;D

And all this is from my experiences... not offend anyone. ;)

Mike, so with a single, loose, soft dog like that, how do you ever get close enough to turn a CD to him?  It would seem you'd have to turn in to him from a long way out?

I hunt some fairly smart hogs here in Georgia. They tend to run easily. My  main female won't hardly put a tooth on a hog and I lost a lot of hogs because of that. But I learned from this. She is a close range dog so I have found some close range, really gritty/catchy dogs to go with her. If she can keep them bayed for 15 seconds, I have some muscle running loose that stop those runners. If they get there in time, I catch 9 out of 10 hogs. Doing this our main strike dogs rarely get hurt. The stop dogs get hurt of course but that comes with their job. I like to run one main strike dog and several stop dogs so we don't get multiple bays going on which would split the stop dogs up. I just bought a Garmin and plan to use it on our strike dogs so we can better follow them with the catch dogs and any stop dog that may be hanging close to us.

Just ease in... but a lot of times that's tricky to do depending on the terrain. Sometimes you get lucky and they catch... but a lot of times the hogs hears/sees the dog coming and leaves the couhtry. But, a rough dog putting pressure on the hog... the race is on from the get go.;D

Like I said, these are my views from my experiences.

And one more thing i'd like to add... and I think Parker stated it on another post. Hogs that run a long ways stop when they want to stop... not because a dog stops them. ;)

Think about when and where they finally bay up... if they do.

From a strictly scientific perspective it is likely that this is happening, and will continue to get worse. If you impose a selection criteria on a species, the trajectory of that species will be effected. Anyone know of anyone suffering with a "MRSA" infection?

Medicine isn't the only place we see this. We see it on the hunt too. Over time, we've watched the wild bred ringnecks become nearly flightless birds. 30-40 years of "if it flies it dies" will do that.

The bad news for hog hunters, due to generational cycles and other factors, the evolutionary "clock" for Suidae should be slower than for Pheasents, and much slower than Staphylococcus. So if feral swine are being selected by human/canine hunting patterns for bay-breaking runners, then we've only seen the beggining, it will only get worse in the coming decades.

Hopefully, this is actually not happening though, because if it is, and you combine that with the effects of suburban sprawl and rural land development (which will only get worse in coming years), we will find ourselves in a situation where we need super gritty bottomless running catch dogs, but then not be able to run them because every five minutes the race will cross a property line.

Will we be trading in our dog boxes for hog traps in a decade or two? I doubt it... we could probably have a whole 'nother conversation about trap-wise hogs, LOL!!!

You just described south Florida suburbia to a tee... and their grass patch dogs ;D

If my dogs go 1 mile and quit... so and so-s dogs go 5 miles... who teaching the hogs to run further? That is unless people with bottomless dogs catch every hog they ever strike? :D  rolleyes

HUNTING PRESSURE MAKES HOGS RUN. No matter short or long range. You put a dog that will go 1 mile the hogs will go 2... you get a dog that goes 2 the hogs will go 3... so on until you eventually you run out of land... because they won't.  ;D When you have 25 people hunting an area where there use to be 3 the hogs are going to get smart... no matter how they hunt.

No sir, we're usually called in after the trappers can't get the job done. Most hogs these days are trap smart and we've proven this many times over running dogs in conjunction with trapping. ;)

i agree. just like we breed dogs that have a lot of "hunt" in them. the majority of hogs left breeding are the ones that have a lot of "run" in them. the ones that dont have enough run in em are dead or going to be dead.

Mike, I agree with you.  I hunted for a long, long time with a single dog and rifle and would say that I shot 99% of the hogs we struck within 100 yards of where we heard the first bark.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...granted, things have changed and evolved but sometimes the problem isn't the hogs so much as the dog(s).

What MIke said is verry true about using one dog, and hogs stopping where they want to.

As far as dogs sticking with a hog, you have to have that here.  Like I have said before, your fastest most gritty dog is no better than a beagle in a brair patch.  They just have to stay with the hog till things work out in their favor and they catch him out in the open or he decides to stop and fight.  Porky will giggle and laugh at a 30 minute dog in some of these big briar choked blocks of planted pines.

Every situation is different. You hunt one dog here and the hog will run circles around you staying just out of catch dog reach... and there are dogs out there that can stop hogs.

ain't that the truth...

With all these running hogs maybe things will kinda go back to how alot of old timers hunted, when they ran wolf dogs. There is a guy I stop in an talk to every now and then, I reckon he is around 86 yrs young. I always enjoy sitting around and listening to stories he tells. At one time, he claims that he took care of almost 50 dogs. July hounds, running walkers etc... He's told me before that it wasnt unusual to run a wolf or yote all day long or night. They would sit at the road, build a fire and drink coffee and shoot the breeze, untill the dogs got it bayed or caught and killed. If it sounded like the dogs were getting tired, they would just turn fresh ones out and they would resume the track.

A lot of t hings been said here, some I agree with some I dont, but One thing I dont recall seeing said  is this:
What about the fact a dog, any breed of  dog  you want to name, can not out run a hog in the briars, thorn patches, berry vines,honey suckle patches ,some of these thick woods and swamps  in this country. A dog can not even attempt to stop one unless they can get up on him, that is another reason for the longer races we see in those types of areas. A hog can sometimes get a big head start on them when he breaks, depending on the situtation. And yes, even the very best catch dogs  miss or get slung off or get killed. That is another reason for dogs that will stick with it, has a good nose , lots of bottom bottom and will and can run a track. There are cur dogs that can , will and do just exactly that.
I can see running catch dogs that come back if they go 300 yards and cant catch up could be a plus for some folks due to size of a place and other possible limitations. If a man is gettin paid to take hogs out, why not just shoot em all in front of the dogs to begin with or bait em and spot light em at night to
sh oot em.. I mean at some point t he dog work really isnt what's most  important to some people, numbers of hogs on the g round seems to be.. If it ever gets that way for me, I will quit. The dogs ability, preformance and the actual Dog work in all kinds of conditions is all it's about for me.
Now hunting  basically open country,  or if a hog is running through a wide open Pin oak bottom or across a open pasture, the dogs can get up on him to catch him if thats your prefered way or in my case, I want them to get ahold,  stop em and get back and bay, then bay him right and waitt on us to get there and lead the catch dog in.  I will tell you for a fact, a running catch dog loose in this country is ONLY one thing, a dead dog walking. It aint  if, it's when.. It may take you 30 minutes to an hour to get to bay or a caught dog in this country if you run loose catch dogs.  There are no roads through some of these woods,   you cant run fast enough t hrough this stuff to stay up with them,  over and through  big creeks, bottoms , across the end of lakes and through  big swamps.I think you all know what is gona happen to a dog caught even 15 minutes on a bad boar hog or the right hog.

When your dogs go for 3, 4, 5 miles,,,, how do you know you killed the same hog you started?