EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I WAS SITTING HERE AT MY DESK AND WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THE 6 COONS I TRAPPED AND SHOT IN ONE NIGHT. I GOT TO THINKING THAT IT WOULD BE FUN TO RUN ONE WITH THE DOGS. I HAVE HEARD OF COWS BY DAY AND PIGS BY NIGHT, BUT HAS ANYONE ELSE BEEN ABLE TO GET A DOG TO WORK COON/PIGS OR BLOODTRAIL DEER/PIGS. (INTENTIONALLY rolleyes). A HUGE QUESTION WOULD BE HOW WOULD YOU PREPARE  THEM TO HUNT WHAT YOU WANTED. NOT BE OUT ON A PIG HUNT AND YOUR DOG DECIDE THAT HE REALLY WOKE UP THIS MORNING AND WANTED SOME COON FOR DINNER. WOULD YOU USE THEM DIFFERENT TIMES OF THE YEAR?

 I dont think you can have a solid dog do both. By solid- I dont think you can have a good blood dog(proven) go out and strike hogs(proven). But I am sure you can have a dog stumble on some dead animals and find a slow pig every now and then. I think you will short change a dog if you throw too many jobs at it. If you want a hog dog then get one. If you want a coon dog then get one.
   

Don't put it past the dog. Put it on the trainer most smart dogs can do what is asked of them although we as human trainers don't know how to do it right and will say that it just can't be done because we don't have the time, land or knowledge to teach both.

 Have seen a handfull of dogs that could do both with no problem.

I am trying to get there with my jagdterrier. I mean, that's what they were bred for right? To be versatile hunting terriers. I can imagine she won't ever be as good as a dog that specializes on one type of game, but that is ok by me. One fellas trash is another's treasure. I've been reading about the early inhabitants of The Big Thicket, and all of them seemed to run multiple species of game with their curs. Succesfully and by neccessity. However, I am new at this and the terrier and I are both still learning. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, she's been started on squirrel and coons and exposed to hogs in a pen. She needs more boot time put in to be honest. The hog part is hard for me to do because I hardly know anyone and have hardly anywhere to hunt. I am on call for work all but 4 days a month. I don't have time or money enough for a whole hoop of specialist dogs. So for me, trying to only hunt one type of game is going to be futile. Best of luck to you if you try it.

Sean

Multi purpose is great if you dont mind catching a coon when you want to hog hunt.

For me I want to know that when i go hog hunting I am hog hunting and dont have a chance of a coon so I have coon dogs.

Multi purpose works best when the 2 diff purposes are very diff................like hog and cows.
Coons in my mind are to close, you hunt them the same time, and are found in same areas.

Hog and cat dogs for me would work since I wouldnt mind getting a cat while hunting hogs.

JMO but a blood dog should be that only, you wouldnt want to be after some wounded 10k $ animal with a hunter and go to treeing coons or baying hogs.

Just to give some insight as to how these dogs were trained and could give you a start or idea as to how you might implement some of their techniques into your training situation.

Some of the best dogs I have seen were trained for bloodtraining situations used bells tied to their collars. Not only to keep track of the animal while it persued the animal, but to trigger that response in the dog. The bell signified that is was time to track a wounded animal.

He used cut collars to trigger the same response but in a hog hunting situation.

I think we can get our dogs to do what we want we have to be open minded and have more inivative ways of getting it through to our animals, and ourselves.

a dog can do both and do both really well. when bloodtracking put a harness on or clip lead to collar and give command "find the deer"...when hunting hogs put on cut collar give command "bay 'em up" or "find a hog". just like sit and stay. they understand words if given the command every time they are dong that job. it just takes time. if you are willling to put the time in then it can be done, just dont' give up when it isn't coming along as fast as you would like.

Good ideas Coach, I'll have to try that bell thing...

I used to use my Ellie dog for anything and everything... if I sicked her on it, she was on it till she caught it or couldn't run no more... squirrels, raccoons, rabbits, dillers, deer, bear, cows... you name it, she's done it ;D  Once I saw how well she was taking to hogs, I stopped fooling with the other stuff and she pretty much just trash broke herself.  I can still sick her on whatever I want, but then it'll take a few hunts to get the trash back out... which can obviously be aggravating ;D   

Having said that, it can certainly be done, but I will only do it when I'm in a pinch and don't have a choice.... much, much easier to just have different dogs.

Been in that pinch before it really hurts. LOL

Good ideas, thanks for bringing them up Coach.

Sean

Think thats what all of these forums are for to further our hunting knowledge if we act like we know it all and stop trying new ideas that's when I quit hunting. Because I have nothing more to learn. LOL

Iam not saying that Iam going to do it just wanted to see if anybody had tried and successfully done it. I was thinking along the lines as coach as having one thing to trigger a response like the cut vest or a bell. great ideas though guys thanks. I do have a Plott mix that is obviously a bear dog (YALL AINT SEEN NO BEAR HAV-YA ;D) cause aint going to make my kind of  hog dog . He was a gift maybe I just need to turn him on to the coons.

Have seen multi-purpose dogs before and never been impressed. Have spent many an hour walking to bear trees only to see a nine pound coon staring down at me.

I've hunted all over this country with all kinds of hunters on all kinds of game and less than 5% of my experience has shown me a hunter I respect (as a hunter) with dogs I'd want. I wonder how much better they'd seem if they spent half their time trying something else?

If you just want to go drop a dog and have a chance of catching something while you enjoy time in the woods . . then get a dog and try whatever you like. Any dog will do, probably.

I keep travelling to see other hunters and their dogs . . I keep reading these internet discussion forums . . for one reason. Because I'm still trying to learn and I want to believe there are answers out there. Better dogs. More intelligent hunters with better methods. I get disappointed a lot. But the day I'm satisfied with what I have, the day I believe I've mastered this . . . is the day I'll quit.

Before you start training dogs for multiple usage . . ask yourself this question.

Do you have the best dogs you possibly can for your intended game? Whether you prefer a close dog or a long gone dog or a running catch dog or a loose baying dog . . . do you have the best possible representation you possibly can? Do you have a pack of real dogs who get it done alone or in company? Do you have the ability to breed two of your dogs and reproduce more of the same caliber? Can you go anywhere, anytime and drop your best and not have to make an excuse or explain why they aren't doing it today? I've hunted with some of the best of the best. Some of the hardest hunters, the most successful breeders. They all have one thing in common. Focus and a single purpose.

There have been men with dogs who can do more than one job. But nobody beats a specialist, ever. Michael Jordan may have been the greatest basketball player ever. But he wasn't anywhere close at baseball. There will always be one man or one dog or one whatever who is the best. And he doesn't get there by wasting any energy, time or effort worrying about something else.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong for wanting a multi-purpose dog. But how many do you know of that are so good at something they can do it easily and still have something left over for other pursuits?

I came to Texas to hog hunt and I won't be happy til I have the best I think I can. I don't care how my dogs act in the kennel or what you think they look like or whether or not they could win a baying contest or a bench show. All of that is irrelevant when we turn loose on Saturday morning. These dogs are the first thing I think of when I wake up and the last thing that crosses my mind as I drift off at night. If I decide to coon hunt or cat hunt or retrieve ducks . . . I'll devote the same level of obsession to succeeding there.

I saw a poll on a dog site once and the poster asked what percentage of importance you attached to which traits. The answers varied . . but they were all along the lines of 35% nose or 40% grit and so on down the line. They must have more to spare than I do because I've been trying for a long time now and I'm still hoping for a dog with 100% of the nose, 100% of the speed, 100% of the brains and desire and grit, etc. The point is I don't want to give up 1% of any trait for any other trait. And I sure don't want to give it up in exchange for cold trailing a dead deer.

You show me a dog that can do four jobs . . . and I'll show you four dogs who make him look stupid.

  I am going to call B.S. on this.

    You are telling me you have seen a finished STRIKE dog(a lead dog that finds hogs day in day out) and a finished Tracking dog( a dog that you can drop on blood and find that deer dead or alive,be it 10yds or 3 miles.) Not calling anyone out but.............

   For the avg. hunter, I think it is down right impossible. Save for the few who work dogs for a living(Paul and CWard come to mind).

  If you can prove me wrong, I will invite you down for a hunt during deer season. You bring your dog. You get to shoot a deer(to track) and the next day we will hog hunt.

I think there are valid points to be made on both sides of the debate.

On the one hand, you're never going to have a better dog than the one that is 20 generations bred, born and trained for one specific type of hunting on one specific kind of game.

On the otherhand, many dogs are capable of doing several different jobs very well. Not the best you'll ever see, but very well.

There is a time and a place for both kinds of dogs.

Both sides are right when it comes to an adv. dog owner.

I have a blood dog that when you put the harness on and keep on a lead then tap on blood she'll blood trail and has found deer 1/4 from where was shot.

But you put tracking collar on and turn loose in hog sign she'll find a hog and stop it.

All it takes is time and patiance.

Coach is so right about the dog owner or trainer.

amen mr. mason

My buddy who started me in hog hunting did this all the time.  He use to start them on coon and switch them over.  Coon hunt at night and hog hunt during the day.  Hog hunting is not allowed in at night in South Carolina, so all a dog had to do is figure out the time of day.  He had great luck with airedales dog this.


'

Within reasonable limits, a game-driven and biddable dog will do whatever you ask it to do. You just have to train in a way that the dog can actually understand what you want/expect of it.

See:
http://thehra.com/fromthefield/ (http://thehra.com/fromthefield/)

Waarheid,
    I am talking about having a dog that is a lead strike dog and a finished blood dog. I dont see it happening. A cow dog and hog dog are close to the same. You strike cattle,you strike hog. Bay cattle and bay hog. They are more the same then say a blood dog and hog dog. That is why I truely doubt you can have the same in one dog if you want it to excel at both. Sure you can have a good blood dog, and the same dog could find hogs but....... having a solid tracking dog and a finished strike dog isnt going to happen.(very often if at all). But if you have one, My offer still stands to anyone.

When I was a kid, I had kin folks out of Winnfield,LA. They used the same dogs to work hogs, hunt squirrel and hunt coon. They were just called "cur" dogs... catahoulas.

The ones that I remember were some the last ones that were used many, many generations before that time. They were a way of life, to put food on the table and money in their pockets...I'd put any amount of money on them up against the hogs dogs of today.

I'd give anything to have some of those dogs today.

when my dad was a boy he had some pretty jam up hound dogs that squirrel hunted in the day and treed coons at night.

I couldn't agree with you more Mike, I would like to have some of those old dogs that were used back then as well.  But one thing my grandpaw told me was that spending 7 days a week in the woods with a dog is what makes a dog what it is.  You have to bring out the genetic potential to see what you really have.  I would love to just put a group of hunters from the old days and their dogs in a time machine and bring them to present day and see what they could on the hogs of today and watch the dogs do whatever is asked of them.
MG

That's just it, i'm sure most of those dogs are a thing of the past... they were a way of life back then, not just a hobby. The last ones I remember were about 25 years ago... long gone now.

I would venture to say that if someone had the time to put in to train and work the dogs you could do most anything.  Most of us have jobs that won't allow this, but it can be done.  No reason to think that a dog that has the skills to be a top dog in one area can't do the same in another..  If a dog can find hogs with the best of them, no reason he can't find coons or squirrel...The trick is to devlope a relationship with him to be able to let him know what is expected of him..

nosightsneeded,

I have not had the pleasure of meeting you, but I can see you like to stir the pot (lol).

When I had 100+ cows I had a pack of dogs that I would like to think of as the type Mike referred to. These dogs were great IMO. My dogs could work cows in the day and catch hogs at night. These dogs were BMC and we never used catch dogs, there was no need to.

Here is were the buttt comes in to play. I could take these dogs through a herd of cows at night time with no issues at all. To reverse the role when we were using the dogs on cows in the day and ran across hogs, well you know. We were roping dogs or catching hogs. These dogs did what it took to get the job done period. I could live with there short comings.

I am not a dog trainer, but I do believe that the alpha dog plays a huge part on the packs end results. With that being said if you want to multi-task make sure the your lead dog is a smart one that is very well rounded. And that is my 2 cents worth. Later...

I still debate this issue with myself and trainers and other dog owners all the time. I want my dog to do multiple things because we live in the city and she needs to work, so whatever comes along I'd like her to take a stab at it. She hunts hogs, she does agility, I'd like to start her on cows and I want to get more serious about bay competitions. She does tree, so I thought about squirrels, but we don't have the resources for it. I do believe that with time and training, she has the intelligence and basic skill set to do a couple jobs.

But... everyone seems to have a but in this argument... I don't expect her to be the top dog in any of them. I have the highest expectations for hogs, that is what she was bred for, but she doesn't need to be a jam-up strike dog for me to keep her. I'm more concerned about the dog, not what I get out of it, so I'm willing to try a lot of things to see what sticks and what works together.

I think people had to have multi-purpose curs 100 or 50 or even 25 years ago when you had only a handful of dogs, you didn't have an Internet forum to be buying and trading back and forth, and you couldn't afford to keep multiple packs for different jobs. You invested in the dog, not the sport, and tried to maximize what you had. You also bred the best to the best because you didn't have the time to mess around with a litter of culls. It was a totally different approach.

I don't think one dog can be the best in multiple disciplines. But I do think they can get it done in several if you put the time into it. And you can probably have a dog that jams at one thing and can do a passable job at another. Just depends on what you, the owner and trainer, want.

   MIKE I LOVE HEARING ABOUT THE OLD TIME DOGS I ALWAYS WONDERED IF IT WAS THE STORIES THAT MADE THEM SO GREAT. WHERE THEY ACTUALLY AS GOOD AS SOME OF THE STORIES SAY THEY WERE? MY FATHER IN LAW SAID WHEN HE WAS A BOY HIS GRANDPA HAD DOGS AND IF THEY WERE AS GOOD AS HE CLAIMED I WOULD GIVE UP EVERYTING IN THE YARD FOR JUST ONE. HE CALLED THEM HOUNDS BUT SAID THEY WERE SILVER WITH BLACK SPOTS AND SOME HAD BLUE EYES.  :-\  HE TOLD ME THAT HIS FAMILY SETTLED THERE IN THE TRINITY RIVER BOTTOM WHICH IS NOW GRAND PRARIE IN 1880. HE ALSO SAID THAT THEY WORKED CATTLE, ROUNDED UP PIGS (WHICH JUST RAN FREE) AND COON HUNTED ALL WITH THE SAME DOGS. HE SAID HE COULDNT REALLY REMEMBER A WHOLE LOT ABOUT THEM BUT HIS MOTHER DID.

   WHEN WE WENT DOWN FOR THE 4TH IT WAS COOL TO LISTEN HOW THE DOGS LIVED FROM STORIES MY WIFES GRANDMOTHER TOLD US. SHE SAID THAT HER DADDY'S DOGS ONLY ATE ONCE EVERY OTHER DAY AND HER MOTHER WOULD MAKE A HUGE PAN OF CORN BREAD AND WITH BEEF AND PORK DRIPPINGS AND THATS ALL THEY ATE. SHE SAID THEY DUG UNDER THE BARN FOR SHELTER AND SAID YOU COULD SEE 10 CHAINS RUNNING INTO HOLE UNDER THE SHED IN THE SUMMER. SHE ALSO SAID THAT IT WASNT RARE FOR THE DOGS TO FIND MOUNTAIN LIONS BACK THEN, AND THAT HE HAD LOST SOME DOGS TO THEM. IF I WERE TO TELL YOU NOW A DAYS I HAD JUST SEEN A MOUNTAIN LION IN GRAND PRARIE I WOULD GET LAUGHED OUT OF TEXAS. I JUST REALLY ENJOY HEARING ABOUT THINGS THAT WE STILL DO TODAY THAT TOOK PLACE IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIME. LIKE MY BOWHUNTING I DO IT WITH JUST A STICK AND STRING WITH WOODEN ARROWS JUST THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE.

There is a great collection of stories concerning dogs in "The Big Thicket Legacy". Both from folks that had dogs that hunted everything and some from folks that perfected hunting of one game animal. Either way, it's a good read for anyone into dogs and the pioneer spirit. I wouldn't doubt if there were some folks on here that are kin to the people interviewed in that book.

Sean

Love the Big Thicket Legacy book. Lots of great stories. But also lots of mentions of keeping cur dogs for this and July hounds for that and feists for tree dogs.

THANKS MACHINE ILL LOOK INTO THAT.

I also own that book and have read it cover to cover, I really enjoyed it.
MG

Sure does barlow, that's why I brought the book up. As an example how an earlier people, that depended on dogs for their very livelihoods, viewed them. I think the only wrong way to use dogs is not to use them at all.

Sean

I sure like listening to the "ole timers" tell stories about their dogs and the way they worked. My wifes Uncle tells stories of a dog that they would send out to find hogs and would bring the hogs back to the coral they had set up in the woods. Said she would go out and bay hogs and they would rally and she would start running toward the coral barking and the hogs would follow her. Another story about dogs would bay the hogs and they would ride their horse up in the middle of the bay and feed the hogs. Then they would just drop a rope on the shoats and cut and mark them. Those sound like some good times to me. I am sure our stories will sound great to our younger generations coming up one day.

I did mention earlier on this post the pack that used to have. This evening I went out and carried 2 pups that are 6 months old (3/4bmc 1/4pit) with lots of promise with my older dogs. All of my dogs today have a little pit in them, when I used my dogs for cows more than hogs I stayed away from the pit cross. The 2 pups have been hog crazy since they were 2 months old. Until tonight the pups had never seen a cow just horses. I had some kids that found their way into my north pasture (bud-lite beer box here and there and dounuts circles, and cut lock). They drove thu a wire gap in the back of my pasture. I had cows out, before I even saw the cows or the downed gate the 2 pups were heading south at a high rate of speed, the cows were 300 yards away. The pups and a couple of my older (trash broke dogs...ha, ha) had the cows bayed up right by a gate. Sometimes it does pay to muti-task dogs even when you don't know it. If you are wondering nobody got a spanking tonight.

We did not catch a hog, but my female dog bumped a deer AGAIN, she may be for sale before too long (too much muti-tasking). We did have fun. Later....