EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Couple of dogs we have been hunting lately don't seem effected much by the heat, I've been curious if it's their body type that makes them this way as much as their conditioning. They typically cover 25 miles per hunt on the garmin, and have yet to show any signs of being too hot. Even in 90+ temps and mile+ races.

I would like to know how you would "spec out" a dog built to handle the heat. Long legs? long wide muzzle? deep chest?     I am interested to see if the dogs I am referring to look like what y'all end up describing.

Legs, and DEEP chest.  I have seen a couple dogs like you describe, one of them was rocky which was a dog that i breed out of a 1/2 plott and bmc to a 3/4 plott 1/4 pitt, and he had the small frame of a pit and a chest and head of a plott and unless u simply made him stop he wouldnt. No matter what he is always running and busy and his toungue would never hang out like he just started hunting

IMO phenotype only carries a dog so far. Some dogs just have natural wind, and some don't...while still having the same phenotype. If it was as easy as phenotype, this discussion probably wouldn't be taking place...

Not trying to sound like a hater, but I suspect that the Garmin is not getting reset everytime you open the dog box door.  I would tend to think that may include some travel distance while they are in the truck.  I've been wrong before though.  I won't lie, my dogs could not go 25 miles full out in the temps we're having now.  There would be some form of damage that was visible to me if they tried it.  I'm sure of that.

I'd have to say that legs and deep chest don't matter near as much as conditioning and genetics.....My staghound is a running dog, no doubt, but is a sprint runner and not a long distance dog......Can outrun almost anything in a stretch, but couldn't keep up with the endurance of something even like a jagd terrier who doesn't look like a runner but who can run all day......ENDURANCE is the name of the game....what all has to go into the pot to make that happen......tell me when you find out!

I agree to a point Scott....I do think phenotype is a good place to start tho,Chris if you are speaking of the two black dogs...conditioning is a big part but them two gyps are not only deep chested but long chested as well IMO I think that has alot to do with it. If you look historically at say some of the world champion beagles,they generally have a loner body than a typical AKC beagle...to me a better opotunity for oxenen exchange,same w/ big hounds,look at the lenghth of there chest as well as the depth. I have been watching my two pups I have been hunting,deep chest but short deep chests to me less lung capacity and I am sure some lack of conditioning on my part but if you noticed they do ware out a bit sooner than I would like.

Cutter,

    I can assure you that the Garmin is reset each time I turn out. When we stop the truck to unload the dogs, I collar the dogs, then I calibrate the compass, start new hunt, and mark the truck location. There is no travel time included in the 25 miles.  There may be an occasional short ride on the Mule, but I would say that accounts for less than a mile or two in a hunt tops.  These dogs just stay busy, ~25 miles per hunt ~5-6 mph.

Contest weekend one of these dogs covered 50+ miles in two days of hunting, the other did a little over 45 miles.  That weekend was hard on them, but they rested a few days and were ready to do it again.  

Bryant,  Yes, its the black dogs I am talking about.   I have also noticed that they have loose, thin skin , but I am not sure that has anything to do with their heat tolerance.    I am certain that conditioning plays a large role, but I can't help but think there is something in the phenotype that is playing into this.

Maybe a muscle type? these are long lean dogs, they do not have bunchy muscles like some cur dogs? ???

You may be on to something with the muscle type. Long muscle striations are far more efficient at repetitive motion while short striation muscle is much stronger but does not provide the endurance that long muscle striation does. When was the last time that you saw a strongman competitor run a marathon?

I think that an efficient cooling system, big tong, could certainly have an effect on longevity also.

Other than that, conditioning :)

Circle C,

Are you going to each dog collar on the dog sceen, and resetting the trip for them individually?  If not, it is not covering just the "drop" of that dog.  It would be covering the travel route since the collars were turned on.  Again, I don't want to come across harsh, but 25 miles in this heat is rank to say the least.  I can take pics of the screens if it will help.  I often don't explain myself very well. 

CBC, A 4 to 5 hour long, 25 mile per dog hunt is pretty normal for us. And our dogs never get a ride.

Steve

Well then, let me be the first to say that my dogs can not compare to the Texas dogs.  With this hot muggy heat we have in Florida, I would most likely do damage to my hounds.  If you guys are indeed resetting the individaul collars each turnout, and it says 25 miles, WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Next time you come to Florida, bring the dogs, we'll go to my club.  That is some great conditioning if they can do that day in day out all day long.  I won't lie, I truely don't think my dogs would hang.

 After one hog or 5 miles I put the dog up and let out the new dog. This is the only way I have learned to hunt during the heat of the day.

 Conditioning and breeding will play a huge factore in a dogs ability to work through the heat.

 I have a friend that uses rhodesian ridgebacks and those dogs dont care if it is 105 or freezing they hunt hard and dont seem to mind the heat at all and the heat surly doesnt slow them down one bit.

I think that there are a lot of differences to consider. For example, the last thing that you will ever call Central TX. is muggy. We are DRY. We have relatively open country from the dogs perspective, we just don't have very much really thick stuff so not much to slow them down. I'm betting that if I did take my dogs out of their environment, they would not preform nearly as well.

And I should clarify that I do not hunt in the heat of the day and they cant do that for days on end.... two to three days in a row is about all that I'm going to get out of them and day three is going to be slowwww.

Don't get me wrong, mine would have the desire, but I would not risk their safety.  I would box them long before they hit 25 miles in the climate I live in.  In the winter, game on.

There are 3 types of muscle fibers. 1 fast glycolytic as seen in sprinters and quater horses, 2 slow oxidative as seen in marathon runners and thorough bred horses. (pardon the spelling) 3. oxidative a combo you can breed for this. In the 60's the russians would test their olympic athletes for there muscle type and if they weren't ideal for their particular event would not allow them to train anymore. You can train to maximize the type of muscle fiber or to work towards the other way but your type of fiber will allow you to go farther with equall conditioning.

I reset my Garmin every time I hunt. Last hunt....sunday a week ago. Hunted for 2 hours and the dogs had been 20 miles. Time before that it was 17-18 miles. It's not too far fetched if the dogs are working and tracking. But yes...a fraction of that is time in the ranger from one turn out to the next.

Cutter,


These dogs are typically hunted 2-3 times a week, not day in and day out.  They hunt hard, and they usually get a day or two of rest. With a few exceptions, such as contest weekend, where they hunt all weekend long. With regards to hot muggy heat, hunting in Houston can not be that different from hunting in Florida.  This is palmetto bottoms, high heat, and high humidity. Turned out yesterday at 7:00pm, and hunted until close to midnight. 90's and depending on the time of day, 60-90% humidity.

Still wondering if there are physical traits to look for that would help produce heat tolerant dogs.

Here ya go Chris:

Dog has got the shades for UV protection and not to mention those pesky thorns......And the "DoggieCOOL" vest complete with 2 cool packets to keep the dog's body temp down on those long summer runs!

(http://inventorspot.com/files/images/mil-dog-3.jpg)

Here are some of my random thoughts....

1. My most heat tolerant dog is a gyp that has loose thin skin with very little fur.  She has almost no hair on her belly and chest, thin hair on her sides, and normal hair down her back.  She is lightly muscled with a light bone structure, and pointy head w/ a long narrow muzzle.  She weighs around 45-50 lbs and hunts with a very busy pace.  My two males are completely wiped out after a hunt but she is usally still ready rock.

2.  I honestly do believe that different types of muscle play a role.  I've been told numerous times regarding atheletes that large more bulky muscle will consume more oxygen then lean muscle mass.  Kind of like a marathon runner vs a running back....different muscle types and different abilities to handle fatigue from long term muscle stress.

3.  20-26 miles is the norm for our dogs on a 4 hour hunt.  We reset each color so that we can see what each dog does on every hunt and what we have found is the two strike dogs will always travel 20-26 miles on hunt, my short range dog will average around 18 miles and the help dog we hunt with is normally around 14-16 miles.  The catchdog has a collar on to so we can usually get a good idea how far we walked and that's normally around 3.5-5 miles for the hunt(just depends on how much trashing I have to break up  :-\ ).

4. Males vs females....I don't know if there is anything to this but as I mentioned the gyp I hunt is much more heat tolerant than my males.  I tend to believe this is because of reason #2 above.  Both males are in that 65-75 lb range and have pretty thick muscle tone, much thicker than the gyp. I consider both males to be in very good shape and show a little rib.  The gyp has a slighter build but doesn't show any rib at all and could possible benefit from losing a pound or two.  Go figure.... ???

Cull Buck,

    Mandi has been telling me it's the thin skin on these dogs....maybe I should listen to her more often :o

In my opinion, this is it right here. Loose THIN skin coupled with long lean muscle. Thin skin means that the capillaries that carry the blood are close to the surface where they are more efficient with heat exchange. The loose skin means that there is more surface area to hold these capillaries. It's a four core radiator over a three. Both black dogs have a very light hair coat, allowing the skin to have full access to the ambient air temperature which is typically a few degrees lower than a dog's standard operating temperature. The long lean muscle requires less oxygen to feed than does a thick bunchy type.

Just my opinion derived from comparing the anatomy of these dogs to other critters designed for desert climates.

CHeers
M

i have a brindle cur/plott gyp i started hunting recently and she seems to do pretty good in the heat. shes about 40 lbs, small head and pointed muzzle. average chest. at the house she is always active and playin with the pups, even in the middle of the day.

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Cutter, I can assure you also that the garmin is reset every time... several folks on here have hunted behind them. How do they do it... I don't know. Here's a couple of pics of the mother/daughter in question and a son/grandson who I believe is going to be built just like them when he's finished growing.

I would think the black dogs wouldn't have the heat tolerance. I guess the very thin hair, thin skin and loose skin has something to do with it.

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Those are some fine looking dogs Mike!

Mandy, that makes a WHOLE lot of sense. I guess that there are more ways to get a bigger cooling system than just a bigger tong.

Steve

Ive got one 1/2 Plott 1/2 YBM that will put 25 miles minimum any nite you drop him out! so I dont doubt it a bit

Check out the African wild hunting dog. I saw a show once and they mentions how they could gallop or run for miles while chasing animals. Do a google search for pictures.

CBK , I have already posted that I have one that wil do 25 miles plus on a 4 hr hunt minimum 35 is not uncommon, he hunts on a lope at all times! but in all fairness to the Florida dogs it could have something to do with our terrain and our dogs never get any relief from the heat we dont get those cool summer rains that you do in Florida, it is just Hot, Hotter, and Hottest here. It seems like you are shocked at that kind of range but I will assure you it is true. I have bought coon dogs and hog dogs out of Florida and have yet to have one that could hang on the level that I hunt.

all my dogs get hot. shoot, my catchdog wasn't even out of my truck the other day at the bay pen and he was freaking out because the other dogs were baying. he was chewing up my tailgate and got too hot just sitting in the back of the truck. started breathing all crazy. i had to hose him down with water and cool his feet down. he scared me..

kinda weird..it was like 6 in the evening too...crazy huh..

I've got buddies that run fox hounds on yotes and fox.  They run now just like they would in the winter.  However, they run all night long several times during the week, every week.  Those dogs know how to pace themselves for a lot of action. 

As for me, man, I'm not going to lie.  Walking in the woods during daylight hours this time of year around here, will get you hot and sweaty real quick.  The air is so muggy, that it feels like you've got a cinderblock tied around your legs.  If you stop to take a breather, the skeeters are on you like bees on honey.  It's not fun to hunt during the day around here right now.  Generally, once our bow season gets started in September, that is when I really start hitting the woods hard.  Come November, the dogs seem to have their wind.  Of course, I don't hunt but 2-3 times a week on a good week.  To many chores for the wife.  You guys that are hunting hard right now, and covering that kind of ground, show dedication to say the least.  More power to you.  It is very possible that the drive of the dog handler is more likely what is in question in my case.  LOL!!!!!!!!

Sounds just like SE Texas... skeeters and muggy! ;D

We don't hunt during the day, but we will turn out in the evening and hunt into the night... or before daylight and shut it down around 9 or 10.

I have a couple questions for you guys that are exceeding 20 miles on one hunt routinely.  How many hogs are you catching on these hunts?  Are you gunning them down, or are you catching them?  Do you tie or stab?  Is this for recreation or land management?  Do these properties get hunted by other dog hunters?  Is it hunted year-round?  Man, ya'll got me interested in some answers.  As I have already stated, your dedication is not in question in my mind.

I average 2 to 6 hogs every hunt. Dont get me wrong I have been skunked 3 times this year. I hunt for a living and do so almost every day of the year. I use RCD's along side of my strike dogs. I like to run 2 or 3 dogs out at a time during the heat. I use 3 to 5 sets of dogs every hunt. During the cold months 6 dogs out. I dont have to rotate the dogs as much when it is cold. I use hand cuffs to hold the hogs I take all out alive during the heat because I do not have time to clean them and they will spoil in a few minutes during our hot days. My dogs average 40 plus miles during coold hunts and 10 to 15 miles during hot hunts. This slow down is because I put the dogs up for a break every 5 miles or one catch. I run 48 dogs that are hunted every week at least twice. This time doesnt include training or the walker. Guiding hog hunts with dogs and hog removal is one of the things I do for a living.

How many hogs are you catching on these hunts?  From zero to 10. I would say the norm is 1-3.

Are you gunning them down, or are you catching them? Catching them, To date, I have not shot over my dogs.

Do you tie or stab?  Tie when possible.

Is this for recreation or land management?  Both

Do these properties get hunted by other dog hunters? Yes and no, depending on the properties. I prefer to be the only person hunting a property though. When we are hunting the National forest I would say there are dozens, possibly a hundred ??? hunters or more out there over the course of the season there.

Is it hunted year-round?  Yes, most of my places are hunted year  round. That said, I have a few recreational places that I have not hunted in ~ 1 year

Joe,

  Am I understanding correctly that you have 48 hunting dogs, that in the cooler months get 80 miles a week each (40 miles x 2 hunts)? Collectively your dogs are covering 3,840 miles of ground weekly?  Do you road your dogs, or walk hunt?

How many hogs are you catching on these hunts? 1-3.

Are you gunning them down, or are you catching them? Catching them with lead in bull dogs. To date, I have shot over my dogs twice (once had some serious pucker factor).

Do you tie or stab?  Tie when possible, do a lot of stabbing though.

Is this for recreation or land management?  Both

Do these properties get hunted by other dog hunters? No, with the exception of one place that gets run with coon dogs.

Is it hunted year-round?  Yes, most of my places are hunted year  round, except that some properties are shut down during deer season. Central TX. deer hunters..... well, lets just say that Ill give them the woods to them selves......

Thanks for formatting the reply form, Chris :)

How many hogs are you catching on these hunts?  From zero to 10. I would say the norm is 1-3.

Are you gunning them down, or are you catching them? Catch only

Do you tie or stab?  Stick only...never tied a hog.

Is this for recreation or land management?  Both...primarily recreation but all the land owners want them killed

Do these properties get hunted by other dog hunters? No...I should have exclusive rights on all my properties. Every property I hunt are private owned ranches. Also...I rotate my places pretty often...may only hunt one ranch or one area of the ranch once or twice a month.

Is it hunted year-round?  Most places no. During deer season I only have two local places to hog hunt. My primary dogging season if from February -October.

My part of Texas is much different than many of the people on this board.....hill country with scattered brush. Real easy to drive and lots of pockets of brush. Depending where I am...the hogs travel a lot. It varies from ranch to ranch. During the cooler months I would estimate the average was 20-25 miles on a 3-4 hour hunt. During these hot months 8-10 miles on a 2 hour hunt.

I also hunt different than most people. I have medium range dogs but they work and hunt hard. I drive to a place, cast the dogs, let them hunt. Either catch a hog or they come back. They come back...I load them up drive a short distance to next feeder, stock tank, thicket, etc and kick them out again. Some of the races are short and some are long. I try to guess the distance I have driven the dogs and subtract off the garmin distance. Im not 100% accurate but fairly close.

I do what easiest for the property I am hunting or what I am doing. When I am guiding I make it as hard as my clients can handle. These are normally big corporation directors that are needing a get away and want to sweat. CEOs lawyers and judges you name it. I am normally told by their agent to get these people as dirty and tired as I can and if they catch a hog thats just a bonus. Other people we take are handicapped and we use 4-wheelers or what ever we need to get these clients what they want.  In the cooler months we hunt dawn to dark if not longer.

When I am clearing the corn milo and rice feilds I use what I need for the moment and time.

I average walking 8 to 15 miles a hunt during the heat 50 to 60 miles when cold. so it is not hard for me to beleive that their dogs are doing this if not triple. Dont call me a liar yet our winter hunts can be 2 to 7 day long  hikes.

Aks Duece2 I walked him over 30 miles on his first hunt with me.  I love to walk, run, and be in the woods so I made it my life. This is what I do...

ushog,

   I think I understand the difference now.  When I say "hunt", I am referring to the time that I turn one set of dog out, until I pick them back up and head home for the night. If I do that twice in one weekend, then I call that two "hunts".    If I am understanding what you are saying, you might start hunting Friday evening, and head home Sunday evening and that might be one "hunt"...or in the winter one "hunt" might be 2-7 days long, consisting of 50 miles on foot.

Am I on the right track?

Yes you are right. I consider a hunt to be letting my dogs out and then picking them up to go home. Some times it is an hour some times it can be a week. Kelso and I caught 8 boars in 2.5 hours not behind a fence just bay catch bay catch you get the point. We had covered over 8 miles in that time. Every hunt is different and can not be planned for in my experiance. Plan on an hour takes 5 and so on.

 I think how your dog is hunted is how he will perform.  If he is taken out for a hunt every other week he will be lucky to be at 60% of his ability. If he is hunted 2 or 3 times a week he will preform at 100% of his ability. Excersize can substatute for hunts.  This includes diet excersize and what ever it takes to keep them in shape and healthy. Just like us our dogs have to get used to the heat every year, and there is still a limit to how much the dogs can do when it is so hot. Our low last night was 81.  and the dogs worked good but not like when its colder. Plus each dog is different in how they reacts to heat.

I think Mandy was on the right track with her phenotype comments. The one thing Sadie has going for her is that she's extremely efficient in the heat. Lacys in general, at least the smaller ones bred from Hill Country stock, seem to handle the heat very well. Still, she usually outlasts the other dogs, which is partially due to her endless energy but also thanks to her perfect cooling system.

- Long, lean build. When she was a pup, everyone thought she was a Whippet mix. Her rib cage has filled out a bit, but she still has the legs and muscles.
- Slick, flat coat. She doesn't have the short hair of a greyhound, it is much longer than that, but it lays very smooth and is relatively thin. There is no dense undercoat.
- The biggest tongue I've ever seen. And as soon as it gets just a little bit hot, she has it hanging all the way out her mouth.
- A desire to jump in every single puddle she sees. If there is water around, she runs in and gets her feet wet, and she'll often lay in it really quickly to wet her belly too.

Put all that together and she does the 25 mile hunts Monteria is talking about with no problem. I've seen her almost hyper at the end. And yes, she does have a blue coat, but I don't think that would matter when hunting at night.

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