EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I believe the best way to breed better dogs is to breed the best to the best from with a family of dogs...and "family" meaning line breeding and inbreeding...Identify an exceptional male or female after about 3 generations and then use that dog for closer family breeding...

If I had a line of hard hunting, gritty strike dogs and wanted a little more grit and jaw power I would find the right color and performance game bred pit bull to breed in to my line of dogs...I would then pick the best pup from that litter and breed back into my line which would put me at 3/4 of my line of dogs...I would then get a few of these pups from that cross and hunt them with the pack and those would be bred back in again so it would go from 3/4 to 7/8 of my line of dogs...The idea is to dilute some of the traits that are undesirable and keep what is desirable so as to reproduce consistence...

If the first time cross of half breeds are too inconsistent then get rid of those crossed pups and look for another line of bull dogs that has all the required traits and try again...

In my mind when one wants to breed more grit then don't use a loose baying dog with a gritty dog if at all possible...breed grit to more grit...I see this all the time when folks breed hound to cur for more hunt...breed dogs that already have decent hunt to one that has more hunt...

more grit...don't breed a loose baying strike dog to a bull dog...find a gritty cur dog and breed to the right bull dog...

When breeding a bull dog to a cur...breed a leggy slender type bull dog because your dog will need the stamina to make long runs...a barrel chested heavily muscled dog runs out of wind pretty quick...

animals that are bred to run might have slightly wider ribs towards the back for lung capacity...but towards the front legs the ribs become oval shaped for narrowing...this allows for better and free movement of the front legs...dogs and other animals built this way spend less energy while running because of the fluid motion...JMO

any other theories or beliefs???

 ETHD is getting a little slow right now...must be the heat so I thought I would throw this out there and get some discussion going... :)

Rueben, I agree with most of what you said but wonder why color of dog has anything to do with the breeding program. I been runnin bulldogs for over 30 years and never cared what color they were. As long as they got there job done.

always wondered this ..... if you were going to breed a pit to a bird dog for an example, and lets say the pit was the male and the bird was the female, would the pups be more like the daddy , more like the momma , half pits and half birds , or a good combo of both ?? guess what im trying to ask is , if you wanted dominate traits from one dog and just a touch of the other , does it matter whos the male and whos the female in the breeding ??  lets say i wanted a  leggy dog with great nose , lots of hunt ,stamina and grit ...... should the female be the bird dog or should the female be the pit for the breeding ?  or does it matter as long as you use good genetics on both sides ?  thanks

No way to tell what you'll get with breeding 2 dogs. My pit bred my very soft Catahoula and the one puppy she had was insane on hogs. Way rougher than the pit. Gotta keep most of the litter and weed out what u want and don't want. As far as line breeding vs out crosses, I see no disadvantage breeding out if the outcross comes from dogs like yours. I think some line breeding with an out from similar or better quality dogs is a positive.

Crossing in an ugly ass bulldog that gets the job done or a good lookin bulldog that gets the job done?

Heck yeah...I'm gonna choose a color I like. Why would you not!?

WayOutWest...it doesn't matter just a preference thing...I like solid colored dogs and don't care for much white on a dog...but performance comes way before color...

Tiffany...some folks say it matters who the dam and sire will be but I really don't think it matters...but that is just me...Just like anyone one else I could be wrong...one thought that has been brought up is this...and it makes sense...if the dam is the pit bull then the pups will at least learn from the dam because they spend the first 6 or 8 weeks with her...so this is a learned behavior and not a behavior driven genetics...so if the dam is the cur...very young pups are very impressionable so there might be some truth to that...

And I hear you Reuben!

I chose the path I did because I don't want super rough dogs. I want what I have (regarding Jasper) with just a touch more gritt.

Well families had their origins from two dogs in the beginning that were most likely non-related.

Like I was told once, your once in a lifetime dog, well it was better then its parents so why was that? That throws a kink in the thought process right there. Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in line breeding and in breeding, but at the end of the day, it's best to best and hope for the best. 

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.

Truth In those words Ben.

If your somehow lucky enough to put a few truly great...grad "A" hog dogs together from here and there then you've got a hell of a deal.

Most aren't that lucky.

Until a man gets EXACTLY what he's looking for out of his yard it's all trial and error, hit and miss. You do what you can just to maintain what you have and you try to improve on it even slightly when you get the chance.

Say you had two linebred littermate brothers. One was an exceptional dog but out of 3 litters didn't produce the same as himself and only threw average dogs for his line. Would you breed the lesser brother? And if you did and he threw above average dogs for the line which one would you continue to breed to?
Best to best is not always the best. Half of the time there is a lesser littermate that will produce much better dogs if they are linebred.

Best to the Best until the cross fails to produce.......then find out which link is the weak one.  Typically just one.

Some......are just not genetic producers or cannot reproduce the desired traits to the offspring.  (Mostly its piss poor judgment of quality by the breeder.....to an inferior dog) 

If you have a hot to trot male or gyp.......take the time to find another match that is either as good....OR BETTER to breed to. 

Can a line littermate that is the lesser dog produce a great batch of pups over the better littermate ?.....Sure.......but rarely consistently.     There is a reason he or she is Second best.......and that in my book is called (Lacking)

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.
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I have never seen an animal that their was not still room for improvement.  But that's just my opinion.

HALLELUJAH THE ANGELS ARE DANCING IN HEAVEN  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes sir brother !  Amen !  Damn its been a long long time since I seen somebody say this!  When you got heavy line bred to inbred family's of dogs it is not always the best perform ace dog in the liter that is going to be the producers of great dogs.   A whole lot of the time when it is heavy heavy family bred it is the Ole ordinary good but not great bro are sister that is the real producer in the liter.

Why is this you ask well usually it will be the one that has the most are is showing the most inbred defects .  In this I mean he will be slower not be as fast maybe not breath as good as his super star bros are sisters he will show the defects from the heavy breeding.   What does this tell you ?   Well it tells you that to make super dogs there has to be some hybrid vigor take effect in the breedings in order for the super stars to perform the way they do ,  so that tells you their gene pool is not as pure as the Ole regular brother are sisters is .   So what does this tell you well it tells you that that Ole regular bro are sister that are showing some inbred defects is the one that is packing the concentrated gene pool of all the dogs in the liter .  Now what does that tell you well it tells you that this Ole reg bro are sisters is just liable to be the ones that can throw that concentrated gene pool to make those super stars that is family is known for.

When breeding it is not all the time about who is the best and breeding best to best even tho a lot of folks sling it around ,  I myself think it just makes them feel like they got big balls with out the experience to really know what they are talking about but the people that have bred many dogs and many liters know what this man here chainrated just spoke of.  It takes a lot of breeding and a lot of studying of breeding to even realize this !

Great post Chainrated !

If this is true then all I got to say is man there is a lot of us that are just breeding pure Chit then.  I been a breeder of dogs a long long time and I aint never seen a line of dogs so good that they could stand on their on for years and years of heavy line and inbreedings.  Without needing this are that and yes a cross to something to bring back out what they once had because they aint gonna get it from the family any more because there is no room for the gene pool to breath because it is so stagnated.  A line can only take so much and then go stagnant with its on gene pool !   

I never bred second best on purpose so I wouldn't know from experience...however...it has been written by others many times...

Texashogdogs...you are for sure right about stagnation with too much linebreeding/inbreeding...I reckon it is a double edged sword...not enough of it gives a high level of inconsistency when looking at pups that perform from such breedings...to much of it gives you smaller weaker pups...I never really experienced this problem because I bred another line of similar type dogs but freshened up with just enough to keep my dogs almost the same as before but with that small amount of new blood...if I were younger I would do it again...but it takes lots of work and money to do it fast and right...

too much inbreeding causes inbreeding depression...I used to like the Kemmer "Gold Nugget" line of dogs...Nugget produced hard hunting cold nosed mt. curs...some made excellent hog dogs and fast on track but most were or are open...lots of folks tried to line breed or inbreed off of this dog in the kemmer association because he was a great coon dog...well this man I know got him a pup that was 7/8ths Gold Nugget bred and he named this pup "Gold Nugget JR" and that pup grew up to be one ugly dog and dumb as a rock...but when he was bred to the right kemmer females he threw some top of the line kemmer dogs...I bought one of his sons and he was a good dog that hand the hunt and he knew how to stop a hog...looked just like the original gold nugget...

Gold Nugget JR made it into the KSBA Hall of Fame just on his ability to produce champion hunting dogs...

I have never seen an animal that their was not still room for improvement.  But that's just my opinion.
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I can certainly agree with this statement, and I'm a firm believer in an outcross when you are linebreeding dogs.  I've seen the effects of heavy linebreeding with no out crosses.

What I don't agree on is having to add to a line of dogs because they can't stop hogs, they don't have enough nose to get the job done, they're slow, and so on and so on.  I'm all for perfecting a line of dogs, BUT there is a huge difference in perfecting something and then having to breed because said dog couldn't get the job done. Just my opinion, always room for improvement, No doubt, but there's a difference there that should be able to be distinguished from.

Their is a lot of truth in most of the statements posted. Most of the successful strains of dogs out there, that have held up over the years are linebred.jmo  Does this mean you cannot get good dogs from crossing two unrelated dogs. Of course not.
  Most of the linebred strains will focus on one particular dog that is outstanding. They will stack a pedigree around him. Now if things go right he has a son, daughter, grandson, or granddaughter that is outstanding so they will start stacking the pedigree around that dog. It goes on from there. Now here is the problem. All lines will start falling back towards the average without relentless culling & sooner or later, you have to make a outcross for hybrid vigor. Most of the time, when you make that outcross is when a superstar will rise to the top & then the focus will be on linebreeding that dog.
  None of these methods are guaranteed unless the dogs have all the qualities you like & their is still no guarantee the pups will come out like you want.lol
  I have had the most success with linebreeding & I still have dogs that do not meet my standard. Just the way it is. But, on the crosses that I make I can predict fairly accurate what the pups will be like. Like all litters some will be better then others.
  If it was easy, we would all be hunting superstars.

a big part of a breeding program has to do with pup selection...we must do all we can to keep the right pups for hunting and breeding...I looked for hard hunting pups that started early and had the ability to locate game...Also looked for pups that went the distance at an early age...if we want the best then that is what we have to do...

here is another angle that really makes it hard breeding better hog dogs...

I am talking about breeding gritty to rough dogs...run 1 one these dogs and they don't bust bays but it also depends on how much grit the dogs has...run 2 dogs and they might keep the hog stopped...run more dogs and we have a long race because the hog will out run the dogs for a good while because dogs can not keep up with a hog that runs in the thickest brush...the dogs might get out ran in the thick brush also because of the heat...the same dogs in the winter will catch more hogs because most of the time the weeds and foliage are dead and the hogs can't use heavy cover to hide...not to mention the weather is cooler or cold which helps the dogs...think palmetto's are bad year round...

sometimes one gritty dog will keep a big boar stopped for hours if needed and when you get there the hog is wore down...so many different variables for different terrain and temperatures...

sometimes a loose baying dog with the aptitude to do all it can to stop the hog is the best way to breed...but I love a gritty dog... :)

x2...on the good discussion...

If you follow horse breeding its just like dog version but more money they take top winners and stick them to every thing close to the line and things out side the line to get winners and never make the one they started from but they get good stock. Then some guy has one from two nobodies and wins the big stakes I grew up around champion coon dogs and hunted coons with my grand paw and uncle they new there stuff and I was in the horse game to as are my kids I think all they really good one just happen and every one does things different and that doesn't say that they can't have kickers to jmo good luck to every one pure or cross I got both

And that my friends will put you years ahead of the game if you want to breed a "family" of dogs that will stand on their own for many years. If it was as easy as just breeding "best to best" everybody would have a yard full of the best. I sure do wish it was that simple...

its a very simple extremely complicated process .... dogs have  mulitple off spring and have the ability for one female to breed multiple males and the only relation of the offspring is the mother  unless more than one is born of the same male ..... same as throw backs in a gene pool ...  gotta weed it out to gain the consistantcy  you want ... takes more time and money than most will spend ... also you can breed in or out unwanted traits within the same line of dogs  if there is an extensive family of them ...   like i said  its  real simple but extremely complicated ...

x2...simple yet complicated...

You can either go with a straight hard good outcross are you could take him are her back to a dog that was like 1/2 your family blood and 1/2 hard outcross.  If you have already done a outcross with your family that has worked great then take that old reg bro are sister to one of those dogs  that way you got the cross in there that has already proven to work and you still got your family blood in there also that can connect back to your ole reg bro are sister,    if not then straight to a hard out cross of really good dogs then go back to the family if it turns out.

Since your dog is a reg old joe out of the liter if he is heavy heavy line are inbred what that is telling you is your dog is as tight as he needs to go much more it will go stale and is begging for a outcross to refresh his family blood so that it can work .

If your old reg joe dog is not heavy heavy family bred and is made up of a bunch of different lines of dogs then it is just a shot in the dark because you don't know which direction to go are were his good came from are were his bad come from.  This is the advantages of family line bred dogs you eliminate it down to just one two are three different lines so you can work with it and over time tell which line is giving you what and which line is not.  This is why it is such a shot in the dark with best to best sometimes when breeding best to best it is just the roll of the dice ,  it either works are it don't and if it does work you don't know why till you start a family on the cross you just made .

Gee

just getting rolling on my line.realizing im gonna need a notebook to keep up with it.started with two good dogs 'Butter' bmc to plott 'Raider'.then bred a dog outa them 'ZhuZhu' to a good urelated bmc 'Bill'.those pups made dogs like i wanted 'Brenda'.next i bred same bitch 'ZhuZhu' back to her cousin 'Woodrow'.outa aunt on mother side and same male as last breeding.cousin was also bmc.these pups are doin almost identical as Brenda did as a pup.then im gona take Brenda back to her uncle ZhuZhu's brother Preacher. excelent dog.both origial dogs raider and butter are no longer with us.i would go back zhu to preacher but there was some mouth.tolerable but im afraid of the multiplication factor.thats why last two breedings were to dead silent dogs.i can tolerate some. a long road ahead hope in goes in the right direction.

I have never tried line breeding dogs but I raise some good bred registered horses and some of those happen to be line bred way down. I have a male and female cur dogs that are both hard working hog catching machines and they have the same father but different mothers. Would anyone recommend I cross them?   

if they hunt right and act right...I say yes...and make sure to keep the very best of the pups for future breeding's...

I would! I have a half bro- half sister cross that's 6 month olds. 3 out of the 5 show sure enough being really good in a few years with the other 2 not far behind. I've made a little tighter cross on the same gyp due in a month. Extremely excited to see what this next litter looks like

Thanks Reuben and TShelly. I will keep this in mind next time I'm getting ready to breed a gyp to a male dog

Half bro x Half sister is one of the best breedings that can be done in my opinion.   
Why because they either have the same sire are dam and what that does is gives you 50% if one of those is your main type of blood.  Then there is a 1/4 on the top side that gives you a out and there is a 1/4 on the bottom side that gives you a out .  So you got 50% your main blood and 50% outs which this gives the blood room to breath and collect some Hybird Vigor.

The thing I like about these breedings you can take one heavy heavy line bred dog off your breeding program were the sire and damn are kin and then take a gyp that is off that same sire but is bred to a pure out cross so she is 50% your blood and 50% out .  You breed these two together and they got the same sire plus your male dog is heavy heavy line bred off of your blood and you breed this to the gyp that is off the same sire but her bottom side is a pure out so now what the pups fall back to is 3/4 your main blood with a 1/4 pure out and are half bro x half sister. 

If you know what your blood crosses well with man the sky is the limit in half bro x half sister breedings.  Hell you can start a whole line of dogs off these kinds of breedings .
I always tell people that have these great dogs and gyps get them bred twice to good dogs and then do the half bro x half sister breeding .  Hell yeah man do it !

i breed half brothers and sisters trying to produce something to breed back to an outstanding  male  or grandfather ..... i have always bred to produce likeness to my males not saying its the way just the way i have  done it ....  i feel  you can futher a line quicker with  males ..... also  i do it have done it probably do it again but i am not a fan of crossbreeding ...   to many things can go astray ......  its basically  a pet project when i do it .....  hybrid vigor is basically  trying to add  what the other dosen't  have much of ... where hybrid vigor  does its best is it improves mothering  the term is  real big in cattle .... my dogs don't raise pups very well unless you stay right on top of em or just get a good mother .... they  just want stay still if anything moves they gonna bark at it and they up and down with babies and smash some ....

I'd make the brother sister cross too. I did 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister cross on this litter. They both had the same mother just different dads. I got one pup that looks like nothing else in the litter. Where did she come from Good only knows, but she seems to be very smart and active on game. Even in a close line bred system you can still have a pup pop out like none of the rest.  Now my plans are to do this and keep a record of my results.

breed a full brother to sister and keep results

breed son to mother of the pups now and keep results.

2 years down the road grandson to grandmother and keep results.

2 years father to daughter and keep the results.

the reason behind it all is to find what cross produces the best cross. Some lines will do better with a father daughter cross while some will do better with a mother son cross and so on and so on... It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time, but it can pay off greatly. You got to keep all the records of the pups as you go so you can see where to cross back in or breed away from.  You can get a head start on this by buying  pups out of a proven line bred cross. Buy 2 or 3 with the same like traits that you like and start breeding from there or buy a pup from a litter and one from the previous litter. Just try to match up like traits that you like.

This is a great way to start.  You have a guys out there that have put the time in for you and it gives you a head start with building what you want. If a guy has got the jam up, hard hitting style you like and he's producing litters after litters with results then I would say go this route. It will save you a ton of time. If you don't then your gonna be like me and it's gonna take you 4 to 5 years to work out the kinks and figure your breeding out.  The only reason I'm doing it this way is because theres just not that many American Leopard Curs / hounds out there.

good luck with your breeding program.

Back when I lived in Mn. & was bearhunting in wisc. I had a pretty good plott gyp. Could not really find her equal up there & did not want to breed  to a dog that was less then her. I just felt I would be going downhill. I was going to travel to Mich. to breed her to her full brother because I did not want to loose anything. Steve fielder had her full brother & a 1/2 brother to her & he talked me into breeding to the 1/2 brother. did that and the pups were outstanding. Took one of those females & bred her to her 1/2 brother still great results.
  Had a accidental breeding of full brother to full sister & the pups came out good but for some reaso n I lost the grit. These pups were all good baydogs but not catchy like the Dad & the mother. They had everything else tho.
You never know until you try.

man...........there are some good posts here... :o 8) :) I love talking about breeding and selecting better for hunting/working...my personal goal is for the experienced to post and teach the younger guys coming onto the scene on how to breed better dogs...and one can not breed better dogs if we are not sure what a good dog is for whatever sport you are after...taking it to a higher level is where it's at...not to mention less culls to deal with...  :)

TexasHogDogs you really helped me out. I've been wanting to start my own line for a while now, I've been raising puppies out of our stock dogs me and my grandpa have and they have been making damn good hog dogs. I just didn't know how to start with keeping my blood and someone gave me some advice about line breeding. I just didn't know how it would work out because I've also heard that some of em come out crazy. I just need to get another female dog to cross out with

Rocking Y,

If it was me and if I was wanting to do what you are wanting to do in the cross.

I would look back in my family dogs look hard and so some studying and see what cross is in those family dogs of yours .  It had to work good in the past because it is what is in your dogs now so take a good hard look .  It might just be a little cross in those family dogs of yours but find it .  Then go and try to find you a cross that matches the cross that is already in your dog.  You may find the little cross in your dogs say two three even four gens back and you might think well that will just be tighting up again but it will not work like that.

These are what are called BACK CROSSES .  You see once a big cross is made years and years ago and it worked and over the years that cross has made your dogs what they are today .  So what you are doing when you find you a cross like this now is you are bringing what is in the back of the ped and what made your dogs years ago , you are bringing it right back to the front and top and it is refreshed and it will refreshing your dogs back to what they were when the cross was first made years and years ago of course everything is a chance but this is what we done for years and years back in the bulldog game and it worked 9 times out of 10 and was great.

You see people don't understand that breeding dogs is like a big merry go round once you have the family of dogs you have and they are great dogs you do not want to change  anything unless you just have to .  In other words don't try to fix what is not broken.  When you start piddling around with things they can get out of wack real real fast and before you know it , it will be next to impossiable to fix it and tell what is what .

Just trying to help you out some here.

The foundation dogs that we had died a few months ago before we could get another litter out of em. All I have left is a brother sister pair from them and another pair that came from the father and another cross. The ones that came from the first cross are better than the ones with the other gyp. So how should I breed them to try to get back what we originally had

Rocking Y,

If you will go back on some of my post you will see that I introduced this Partin Floarida Cur into my line of dogs .  This is a major major cross into my line of dogs here .  I did this because I like what those dogs are and what they can bring .  Will it work well that remains to be seen but I bet the odds are very high in my favor because of how they been worked and culled over the years.  I done this because I already have my family of dogs set , I can go out there and breed any which dog in my yard to one another and they are all family so any way I go am still family breeding.  My main dog is my Horn dog and he is half Plott and half pure my family of dogs here and when I breed his liter I did it for a purpose because I knew in time I was going to need a outcross here on my yard for all my family dogs so now when I breed Horn to all these family bitches he throws that half plot into his pups which the pups will all have a 1/4 Plott in them and that little bit of a 1/4 is critical in what my pups will turn out to be .  I didn't know this Plott would click into my blood when I done it I took a chance and it has worked out real well for me here now .  Now I have done the same thing with this Partin Fla Cracker Cur I took him and I bred him to two hard core family pure family bitches one of the bitches is as tight of a family bred bitch as one could want on the ole Joe blood.  So now I will have to wait and see if this Partin dog is going to cross like I think it will with my ole Joe blood which am betting big it will .  Once all this is done and I find out this Partin dog clicks with my family blood then I will put all this together for the final end product  which will be a three way cross of bloods all proven to work together over time proven by me and tested by me ,  which will be my old heavy  family blooded dogs the Joe blood , the Partin Fla cur which is heavy heavy family blood in his family and the little bit of Plott blood that is in my Horn dog which that plot blood that was in him was 7 times Sizzlin Heat and like 8 times Alabama hammer .  All three bloods heavy heavy heavy in pure family blood and all heavy heavy proven in what they do .  Am about four five years away from this end product which is were I plan on seeing my best dogs over all this time of doing this.  Once that is over you will just go back to BACK CROSSING just like I just told you about in my post bringing the old blood of what made this line right back to the front !

Sorry that was long but a lot to say in a short space here .

The bro x sister breeding was it a full bro x sister breeding are was it a half bro x half sister breeding ?

The one that came from the father x Cross ,  has this cross been used before in your dogs now and has it worked before and good and if so is it whats in your dogs now that you are wanting to breed to it  ?

Its hard to say and be on the bullseye without knowing your dogs.  I can only try to help you in the ways we bred dogs and the odds are in your favor .

Family breeding is a whole lot different from best to best.  When you breed best to best you just roll the dice and hope to come up on seven are eleven no science to it you get what you get if it don't work you scrap it and go to the next best to the best.  Nothing wrong with that because some great dogs come from it and over years breeding best to best can turn into one hell of a family of dogs when it is put together .

Family breeding is all about knowing that your going to get high percentages when you breed liters threw a culled out family tree.

The thing people don't realize is , you can only go so tight are do so much family breeding without having a outcross put in to help your family to restore its vigor .  But this is critical and crutial the out cross you choose can make you are break you and if you make the wrong decision and get so so dogs from your cross and you say well those dogs were ok and then you go to breeding them into your family in about two gens your dogs are going to start going down hill .  The outcross you make is going to make your dogs .  People think its the family that matters the most but cannot be furtherest from the truth ,  the outcross that you have in those dogs is just as important and even more important really because the out cross is what is going to make your dogs .  I don't know how to explain that really .  Once the cross is done and you get great dogs do not think that it was just your family that made those dogs and that the outcross had very little to do with it because if you do you are sadly mistaken .  That's why when you use a out cross into your family you want it to be as heavy bred are harder than your family dogs and you want it culled as hard as your family dogs the harder bred the harder culled the outcross is the better and better your family of dogs is going to get once it is introduced into your family.  I don't give a damn how great the dog is  you breed to if he don't have noting to back him up you are living in a glass house and sooner are later it is going to all come crumbling down .

The house is only as strong as the foundation it sits on !

Long winded damn but its hard to put all this into a few words .

The cross I'm trying to do now is a half brother x half sister. The half brother I brought in is a cross we tried with a gyp of our friends and out of those we got two good puppies but the female puppy fell off so I ended up keeping the male. I like his roughness and aggression towards hogs. I'm thinking I could cross him with my gyp from the original foundation dogs to make some good puppies

I will send u my number we can talk about it in private  if you like. I will try to help u out were I can.

the best way to get back to your old dogs is keep the ones that look like them the most and line breed the better ones til you get  there ... that is simple and the way it is ...

Mr. Parker, not asking this in a smartass way in any way shape or form. This is an honest question and I would like to hear your answer........ you say to keep the ones that look like them the most and line breed the better ones...... I am in a predicament of sorts.....I have an old male that I am trying to replicate. I have 1 male pup from him as of now and am currently working on a breeding with a close but not directly crossed gyp. Hopefully she will take and throw a decent sized litter so that I can expand my yard as far as his line goes.  The male pup I have is not turning on as quickly as I would like and has not been real consistent thus far. I have considered culling him due to his inconsistencies but am giving him a bit more time due to his age. If you were in my shoes would you hold onto this pup until you knew for sure that you had other replacements based off simply knowing that the breeding/genetics are there and purt near all other dogs of this line ARE hard hunting and consistent? OR would you cut your losses and hope for the best in future breedings?

Anyone who has any experience/ useful information regarding my above post please feel free to reply.

well it all depends on how much breeding stock of  that old male is availble ?....... definately  if  you want more like him breed the ones  that look more like him and  pick the better ones  to breed back to each other ....you gonna have good and bad  in any breedings til you get lined out in agood  really inbreeding program ....  had  afriend of mine had an old dog that was a good dog he thoughtthe world  of but  he was of  mixed up blood  ....litters  would look like a box of chocolates ...last time he bred him he had  one pup looked just like the old  dog ....he kept him and one  female well she  turned  on perty good but didn't look nothing like his  old dog .. the male pup that looke dlike the old male  wasn't makeing it .... i told him keep the pup  breed him to something  of the bloodline if you can find one ..get  you a few pups that look like your old dog and kill the male since  he ain't much .... breed the good ones that look like the old dog and you will eventually get back to the old dog and probably breed more likeness of him than he did since he wasn't line or inbred..... well he  didn't and now he can't get one that looks like his  old dog . .he lost it ...  looks is the first sign of likeness  in any animal or human to show what the lenage is ....

10 4. I have access to the same bloodline just not direct descendants other than the male pup I am referring to. This line is all pretty tightly bred going back to each other one way or another for quite a few generationgs back. I am hoping that he makes it long enough to  for the pup out of his litter last year to hit her second heat to breed him back to her and if all goes well then to breed the best pup out of that litter to the best pup out of the litter I am trying to produce now. this would be a full brother to sister breeding just out of 2 seperate litters. I also have a hellacious little gyp that is out of bonnie's brother and another solid gyp ( bonnie is the gyp that I bred to last year and am trying to breed him to again right now) so I will have a cross available as far as preserving the momma's side.......

If you can't tell I'm not to experienced in line breeding, I have always just tried to breed best available to best available but I am trying to start breeding a bit tighter to produce more consistant litters and better dogs overall. Thanks for your help.

sometimes you'll get a dominate producer of likness to themselves  ..other than that  you gotta linebreed and inbreed ....  man don't let people scare  you   with you gotta  have an outcross  cause  you to tight ....what do all the squirrels  rabbits   and barn rats do .... there so inbred it ridiculous ... it matter's if  you have  defects ...  keep with the dogs  you have til you get to perty much inbreeding keeping the better ones  and  you'll  be  way  way ahead  of  the game .....

thanks for the insight Mr. Parker.

what you got to remember when you outcross from the outside the family pool not only do you bring in the good genes, you bring in the bad ones too.  You can control what you have and what you want to produce from line breeding and inbreeding.   Outcrossing can be done and in some cases needs to be done, but remember that those undesirable characteristics are normally hidden until you make the cross.   I prefer to go further back into the same family  for the outcross.   It's still line breeding, but your going out of the box and opening the gene pool up,  but from the same family.   For example uncle to niece.   You can  pull out of a previous litters or even 2 litters prior and put on a daughter of your sire and dam.  If the uncle carries those desired characteristics that your hunting and has a lot of the same characteristics of the female and or the sire or dam, then you should be producing the same desirable dogs that took so long to build and breed.  Again this may not be the best cross. you may need to go great grandfather to grand daughter or so on so on.  The biggest concern in outcrossing is not knowing what undesirable characteristics you'll be introducing into your line.  And that may take a year off your breeding program and set you back.

We all start somewhere.  The best advise that I can give : " you'll never know until you make the cross" .  Live and learn.  Go to proven breeders that are producing dogs that have what you want and start putting it all together.  Remember not all best dog to best dog produce best dogs. Sometimes that crap just doesn't line up and you get a bunch of culls with one shining star.   We all want 100% on ever litter, but trust me thats harder than you think do, if not impossible. 


good luck with what ever you do.

X2...

X2...I was fixing to bring up what you said but in a different way...tight family breeding with best to the best breeding from within that family will be producing consistency...so quite a bit of desirable traits are displayed because they are doubled up recessives...a recessive trait to be displayed must get one gene from each parent of the same so lets say it is for ranging and hunting...so the tight bred dogs carry those recessives for that trait but when bred to an outside dog, and that outside dog just might be carrying a dominant for not hunting and when the dominant matches up with the recessive hunting trait then the dominant trait will be displayed...so lets say quite a bit of the desirable traits in that line of dogs are paired up recessives and the outside blood has quite a bit of dominant genes for the opposite....the result will be lots of culls...but since the tight bred line has to pass a recessive and the outside dog is carrying a double dominant or a dominant recessive then some of the pups will hunt but not more than half of the litter when dealing with averages...

The biggest thing about dog genetics is that I have not seen any studies on hunting traits...

I suspect the hunting traits or lack of are not like a color gene but more like a wide range from no hunt to hunting hard to the point of heat stroke from not slowing down in hot weather...JMO

Regarding what I have hi-lighted in red.......answer me this if you can........My smoke dog bred to an old gyp named sue a little over a year ago resulting in the male pup that I was speaking about in my above post that is perfect conformation wise but has yet to put it together in the woods, I have owned 4 of the pups out of this same litter and have traded or given 3 of em away here and there to close friends for one thing or another but have held on to him since 6wks of age as far as I know none of the 4 that I have been around have made dogs which is VERY strange for the line...... My male has produced some great dogs and the female used in this breeding has produced ALOT of great dogs....... both of these dogs are as breed worthy as any i've been around, solid hard hunting no nonsense type dogs and i'm not trying to toot my horn in anyway or saying that because I own one of them, they just are. ( I did not make either of these dogs the dogs that they are today, I was got lucky enough to be involved with them) Anyway what would be your opinion as to why none of these pups have worked out thus far? Smoke was also bred to a daughter of sue last year named bonnie also resulting in 1 puppy, that puppy started hunting at 6mths old and has been on over 20hogs as of now at 10 months old, she is doing great........... I am currently making the same cross again breeding smoke back to bonnie and hopin n prayin for a decent sized litter to raise, with exception to a very small group of people the pups will all be staying with me..... Anyway, all this genetics/ breeding talk interests me but when I see 2 great dogs breed and the pups not work out it makes me wonder why.... To be completely honest Sue is a better dog than Bonnie, however bonnie has nowhere near the 12yrs experience as sue so it kinda all comes out in the wash, just weird to me......

Justin
 What I would do is breed your old male to a female that has the desired traits you are after. Then keep a couple females pups out of that litter. Take the best one and breed back to him.
Just my 2 cents

Justin, some lesser littermates will outproduce their littermate(s) that is/are stars. It's just how the genes line up. You have to remember that a pup can pull from any one dog in it's pedigree. That's why I always find it amusing when people say something to the effect that papers don't hunt. While that is true, if you want to make good/better dogs...you better know the pedigree of the dog, registered or not.

I am breeding him to 2 different gyps right now. The issue is that while i would be happier then hell i doubt he will make it long enough for these future litters to be far enough along to breed back to him, this is pretty much the only reason his son is still on my yard....insurance if you will

Have you considered having your old dog collected?

Just a thought but if he is everything you want then it maybe better to retire him and pamper him to ensure a longer life?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

It has crossed my mind....sounds expensive though, any input on pricing?

Around 250-300 for initial setup (first year of storage included).  Then 50-100 annually for storage.

It has crossed my mind but its hard to leave him at home when he completely looses it at the mere sound my buggy of wheeler starting up lol.

sometimes Justin they just don't pair up right. They may have a lot great traits, but when you make the cross those less desirable recessive traits pair up  and you get a litter of culls and below average pups.

You can lose a lot of folks when you start talking genes and chromosomes, recessive and dominate.  I always just try to make it as easy as possible to explain.  You can have the best two dogs in the country, but put them two together and they cant produce a good pup between the two them.  They just don't pair up right.  And yet you could breed the same male to a sister of the female or vise-a-versa and everyone of'm be outstanding pups.  Thats why you look further than just the pair of dogs you have.  You need to look at the parents and grandparents of each dog.  You build a data base of what you have and what they had and the crosses they made and the results they had. Papers give you a family history and a way to keep track of where your going.   Sometimes you'll never know until you make the cross.   Again  best dog to best doesn't always work, but it's a good way to start and I would say 100% time the best and only way to start your breeding program, but start best to best out of the same line of family. You can control those good  (early starting, cold nose, loud mouth, natural drive, and brains) and bad  ( timidness, shyness, late starters, poor drive) traits that way. 

Not only those less desirable traits but genes that care deafness and blindness and diseases like hip dysplasia and so on.  That's why knowing whats behind your line of dogs is very important.

good luck




 

I don't know the answer as to why but first we need more information...How is Smokey bred? were both of his parents great hog dogs? How about grand parents?

Same questions for Sue...

is Sue and Smokey related? if so how much relation?

here is what I see that happens on a regular basis...a dog is a great dog from parents that are not and maybe one grand parent is a great dog...lots of junk hidden in the genetic make up...

if all the dogs are related from 2 to 3 generations or more and all are dogs that are above average hunting dogs, then you will have a higher percentage of good dogs produced...maybe once in a while a lower percentage but over the long haul the averages will prove otherwise...

my logic tells me that when you get that many culls when breeding 2 good dogs like Smoke and Sue, then there is that possibility that there is very little relations between the two...and more than likely there are a higher percentage of culls in both or at least in one of the parents lineage...not saying that that is true just that is what the scenario is pointing too when we are looking for probabilities...

also when you breed 2 dogs of different lines or breeds and one is tight bred and the other is not then a lower percentage of good hunting dogs will be produced...kind of like rolling the dice...

when one is inbreeding a little and then line breeding the idea is to produce a high quality dog that also produces consistency when bred back into the family...an example I see in my mind is this...100 blue marbles represent the bad genes for hunting and 100 green marbles represent good hunting genes...when breeding a tight family of dogs the idea is to take out the blue marbles (bad genes) and to keep all the red marbles (good genes)...

with none related dogs the bag can be 50/50 of good and bad genes (marbles) so it is the luck of the draw...but as you take out the bad then the chances of producing the good continues to go up as the bad genes are reducing...but every now and then some bad will pair up but not as often...

like I said in an earlier post...quite a bit of the hunting traits are recessives so breeding to an unrelated dog can change drastically what has been created over many years so it must be done very carefully the further you are in to the line...

my belief is inbreed early to see what you have and it is a big play in removing unwanted genes by keeping the very best pups...then line breed with these good dogs...

if it were me and Bonnie turns out as good as what her track record is showing I would breed her in her first heat cycle to Smoke...That would give me 3/4 smoke right off the bat and if bonnie started at 6 months then there is that possibility that you will have early starting pups that start at 6-10 months of age...breed the first cycle because Smoke is getting old...

This has been my logic and thought process when I was breeding mt curs...this is half of the equation...the other half is selecting the right pups and then give them the right handle...conformation and knowing what we want in a hog dog is part of it as well...

all of the above is strictly my opinion and my beliefs...  ??? :)

Mike Rogers...I was posting when you were posting and we about said the same thing just in a different way...sounds like we are thinking alike...

Do the x and y chromosomes aline between the two? Do they share at least 82.5% of the same dna markers? Make sure they have similar blood type as well. Oh and the most important thing is to make sure they are yeller dogs. And one more thing if you can find some that have feet like a coon and double dew claws then you have some breed worthy specimens ;)

You wanna come over here and demonstrate how to go about countin them dna markers????....im lookin for the smiley with its tongue stickin out but i cant find it!! :) ;)

Yep Reuben I think we do.  By constantly bringing in an out cross your constantly rolling the dice and thats telling me a person is not happy with what they got and they are try'n to improve on what they have.  Just because you breed to a hi powered stud dog doesn't mean your gonna have hi powered pups.  I think if more guys would look at the lines they have and breed with in that line they would greatly improve their litters. I know it's all about NOW, but sometimes it takes a few years and a few crosses to get the ball rolling and get the results a person is looking for.  Yes you can breed two unrelated or even two different breeds of  dogs together and get some good pups, but it could be bust too.  I got a couple leopards that are close to me that match up with my female. One is a full littermate brother.  Another is a male that has a ton of old lep cur bloodline in his pedigree.  My female has the same bloodline on top and bottom as this male. I plan on try'n that old bloodline stud dog and the  brother sister cross too.  What you want to do is breed for consistency and thats what I'm looking for when I make a cross.  That old bloodline dog is about as far as an outcross I would go.....   

 

thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.

hunting traits...I see them as a basket of genes acting as one...I also see that basket of genes as one that is very mild (lacking in hunt) to very strong (excellent hunting)...and that is why some pups hunt and some don't as well as close ranging or long ranging, how they hunt etc...etc...Could be several different baskets that make up hunting traits...If it were simple as color genes like black or red everyone would have top hunting dogs...

The basket of genes I am thinking about is sort of like the merle gene...red merle and blue merle...from real light to dark merle and a small amount to a very rich and lots of merling...Some pups are born merle and fade out as they grow but are still considered merle...I see hunting genes acting the same way...just a theory of mine and I could be way off bases...  :)

Well with ya'lls help i believe i have a solid gsmeplan to move forward with. This is what im thinkin as far as short term goes

Breed bonnie to smoke again, dhe is currently in heat and have been penned together for the last week....( this cross last time produce 1 pup the lacyman owns named honey. She has already found hogs and is pretty dang consistant for a 10mth old...... We missed her first heat which is probly for the best anyway....gives her more time to excel.....

Now when honey hits her next heat she will be bred back to smoke.....

Then i plan on taking the best pup out of bonnies and smokes litter and the best out of smoke and honeys litter and breeding those.....this should really show me what im working with on the next couple years.....gonna be a long road but i believe it will be well worth it in the end.

here's a monkey wrench...but a good read...same lady talked about dogs and wolves but this writing is better...I found this on the net when I was looking for info on "TIRED BLOOD" as the old timers called it and "INBREEDING DEPRESSION" as others call it...She also has a table of pros and cons for inbreeding, line breeding, breeding same breed of dog but without relations, and outcrossing...but I couldn't make it line up right on here so I deleted it...

 PROS AND CONS OF INBREEDING
Copyright 1996-2008 Sarah Hartwell
Inbreeding is the mating together of closely related cats, for example mother/son, father/daughter, sibling/sibling matings and half-sibling/half-sibling. It is the pairing of animals which are more closely related than the average population. For breeders, it is a useful way of fixing traits in a breed - the pedigrees of some exhibition cats show that many of their forebears are closely related. For example, the name of Fan Tee Cee (shown in the 1960s and 1970s) appeared in more and more Siamese pedigrees, sometimes several times in a single pedigree, as breeders were anxious to make their lines more typey. Superb specimens are always much sought after for stud services or offspring (unless they have already been neutered; cloning may solve that problem in the future) having won the approval of show judges.
To produce cats which closely meet the breed standard, breeders commonly mate together animals which are related and which share desirable characteristics. Over time, sometimes only one or two generations, those characteristics will become homozygous (genetically uniform) and all offspring of the inbred animal will inherit the genes for those characteristics (breed true). Breeders can predict how the offspring will look. "Line-breeding" is not a term used by geneticists, but comes from livestock husbandry. It indicates milder forms of inbreeding. Line-breeding is still a form of inbreeding i.e. breeding within a family line and includes cousin/cousin, aunt/nephew, niece/uncle and grandparent/grandchild. The difference between line-breeding and inbreeding may be defined differently for different species of animals and even for different breeds within the same species. It is complicated by the fact that a cat's half-brother might also be her father!
However, inbreeding holds potential problems. The limited gene-pool caused by continued inbreeding means that deleterious genes become widespread and the breed loses vigour. Laboratory animal suppliers depend on this to create uniform strains of animal which are immuno-depressed or breed true for a particular disorder e.g. epilepsy. Such animals are so inbred as to be genetically identical (clones!), a situation normally only seen in identical twins. Similarly, a controlled amount of inbreeding can be used to fix desirable traits in farm livestock e.g. milk yield, lean/fat ratios, rate of growth etc. In human terms, inbreeding is considered incest; cats do not have incest taboos.
Outcrossing is when the two parents are totally unrelated. In pedigree animals, this often means where a common ancestor does not occur behind either parent within a four or five generation pedigree. In animals with a small foundation gene pool, this condition is difficult to meet.
One of the first people to document the methodical use of inbreeding was Robert Bakewell (born 1725, Leicestershire, UK) who called his system breeding "in-and-in" because careful selection of stock bred a trait into a breed at each generation. Until Bakewell, British livestock was based on locally occurring strains (landraces) where males and female mated freely. By segregating the males and using his "in-and-in" system, Bakewell controlled which traits were passed on to subsequent generations. This included breeding only the best rams and bulls to their own daughters or granddaughters (backcrossing, inbreeding) to improve the next generation. In the pre-genetics age, Bakewell used inbreeding to change the face (and husbandry) of British livestock and make the livestock more profitable.
First I will define some terms used by animal breeders. In general I've avoided specialist terms, but you will meet these terms outside of this article.
Homozygous means having inherited the same "gene" for a particular trait from both parent e.g. for fur length. Barring random mutation, 100% of the offspring of a homozygous individual will inherit that gene. Inbreeding increases homozygosity by "fixing" a particular trait. Purebred animals display a high degree of homozygosity compared to mixed breeds and random-bred animals. The idea of purebred animals is that they should "breed true". When one purebred is mated with another of the same breed, the offspring will have uniform characteristics and will resemble the parents.
Heterozygous means having inherited a different gene for a particular trait from each parent. For example one gene of long fur (recessive) and one gene for short fur (dominant). 50% of a heterozygous individual's offspring will inherit one form and 50% will inherit the other. Carefully controlled "out-crossing" increases heterozygosity for selected traits by introducing new genes into the hybrid offspring.
Heterosis is the scientific term for hybrid vigour. It is possible that there are "bad" genes which produce less vigourous individuals when in the homozygous state because good genes have been bred out along with the undesirable characteristics; theoretically the bad genes could be bred out, but in practice this doesn't seem to happen. The other theory is simply that you simply need to have a mixture of two different genes to get the desired effect as they somehow complement each other; highly inbred animals lack this diversity and have poorer immune systems.
Sex-linked refers to a trait which is passed on, or determined by, a particular gender. In Abyssinian cats there are several versions of the red colour. One is sex-linked i.e. a male cat only needs one copy of the gene, but a female needs two copies of the gene to produce the red colour.
Degree of homozygosity means the number of genes an animal is homozygous for. If most of its genes are matched pairs it has a high degree of homozygosity; if most of its genes are mismatched pairs it has a low degree of homozygosity. An animal can be homozygous for some traits, but heterozygous for others.
NATURAL OCCURRANCE OF INBREEDING
This is not to say that inbreeding does not occur naturally. A feral colony which is isolated from other cats, by geographical or other factors, can become very inbred especially if a dominant male mates with his sisters, then with his daughters and grand-daughters. When he is deposed it will most likely be by his own son or grandson which therefore continues the inbreeding. The effect of any deleterious genes becomes noticeable in later generations as the majority of the offspring inherit these genes. Scientists have discovered that cheetahs, even if living in different areas, are genetically very similar. Possibly disease or disaster drastically reduced cheetah numbers in the past creating a genetic bottleneck. All modern day cheetahs may be descended from a single surviving family unit hence their genetic uniformity.
In the Cheetah, the lack of genetic diversity makes them susceptible to disease since they lack the ability to resist certain viruses. Extreme inbreeding affects their reproductive success with small litter sizes and high mortality rates. Some scientists hope that the appearance of the "King Cheetah", characterised by its blotched markings, means that the Cheetah can develop a healthier gene-pool through mutation (provided man doesn't wipe them out in the meantime). Mankind has contributed to the loss of diversity by sport-hunting cheetahs and reducing the number of available mates. Hunters preferred to shoot unusual specimens (i.e. genetically diverse ones) for the trophy room and this previously included long-haired "woolly cheetahs" and grey/blue cheetahs indicating much greater genetic diversity in the past.
Despite the hopes of scientists, some cheetah populations are showing further signs of inbreeding. Confined to ever-smaller areas such as wildlife reserves, the populations have become genetically isolated from each other. In one population there is an increasing frequency of misaligned jaws and kinked tails. Continued inbreeding will reinforce, or fix, these traits. Ultimately, they could reduce the cheetah's hunting effectiveness - the kinked tail will reduce its agility and cornering ability and the misaligned jaws may not be able to hold onto prey.
The wolf was once widespread throughout North American, but many of the remaining packs are isolated and have become inbred. The isolation/inbreeding problem has become so acute that conservationists have taken wolves from one area and introduced them into a another area to revitalise the gene pool. In some areas, the choice of mates is so reduced that wolves have resorted to mating with domestic dogs - an extreme form of outcrossing called hybridization. A similar situation in Scotland where the Scottish Wildcat mates with domestic cats is threatening to wipe out the wildcat as domestic cat genes become more widespread. These are two cases where outcrossing (following, and followed by, inbreeding) may lead to extinction of a species (analogous to loss of type in domestic breeds).
Another animal suffering from the effects of inbreeding is the Giant Panda. As with the Cheetah, this has led to poor fertility among Pandas and high infant mortality rates. As Panda populations become more isolated from one another (due to humans blocking the routes which Pandas once used to move from one area to another), Pandas have greater difficulty in finding a mate with a different mix of genes and breed less successfully. It is almost inevitable that the Giant Panda will become extinct even if cloning techniques become available since the gene pool is now probably too impoverished for the species' long term viability. It may, therefore, be considered that all purebred animals will ultimately become unviable through inbreeding and that breeders must work carefully to maintain type while slowing down the detrimental effects of selective breeding.
There have been numerous studies into inbreeding and viability. Mandarte Island, off Vancouver, Canada is so tiny that every single song sparrow can be ringed, monitored and matings recorded. Researchers know exactly how inbred each individual is. When severe winter storms wiped out over 90% of the birds, Lukas Keller of Zurich University, Switzerland found that all inbred individuals were killed. He defined "inbred" as matings between first cousins or closer. Loeske Kruuk, Edinburgh University, Scotland found that collared flycatchers born from brother-sister matings were more than 90% less likely to survive to maturity than offspring of non-incestuous matings. Ilkka Hanski of Helsinki University, Finland found that 50% of male offspring of brother-sister matings in a certain species of African butterfly were sterile.
Natural isolation and inbreeding have given rise to domestic cat breeds such as the Manx which developed on an island so that the gene for taillessness became widespread despite the problems associated with it. Apart from the odd cat jumping ship on the Isle of Man, there was little outcrossing and the effect of inbreeding is reflected in smaller-than-average litter sizes (geneticists believe that more Manx kittens than previously thought are reabsorbed due to genetic abnormality), stillbirths and spinal abnormalities which diligent breeders have worked so hard to eliminate.
As mentioned, some feral colonies become highly inbred due to being isolated from other cats (e.g. on a remote farm) or because other potential mates in the area have been neutered, removing them from the gene pool. Most cat workers dealing with ferals have encountered some of the effects of inbreeding. Within such colonies there may be a higher than average occurrence of certain traits. Some are not serious e.g. a predominance of calico pattern cats. Other inherited traits which can be found in greater than average numbers in inbred colonies include polydactyly (the most extreme case reported so far being an American cat with 9 toes on each foot), dwarfism (although dwarf female cats can have problems when try to deliver kittens due to the kittens' head size), other structural deformities or a predisposition to certain inheritable conditions.
The ultimate result of continued inbreeding is terminal lack of vigour and probable extinction as the gene pool contracts, fertility decreases, abnormalities increase and mortality rates rise. On the other hand, too much outcrossing will cause loss of type and therefore the loss of a distinct breed.
SELECTIVE BREEDING
Artificial isolation (selective breeding) produces a similar effect. When creating a new breed from an attractive mutation, the gene pool is initially necessarily small with frequent matings between related cats. Some breeds which resulted from spontaneous mutation have been fraught with problems such as spasticity (cerebellar hypoplasia) in Devon Rexes, skeletal problems in Scottish Folds and the effects of a semi-lethal gene (aka deferred lethal gene) in Manxes and the lethal gene in Ojos Azules. Problems such as hip dysplasia and patella luxation are more common in certain breeds and breeding lines than in others, suggesting that past inbreeding has distributed the faulty genes. Selecting suitable outcrosses can reintroduce healthy genes, which might otherwise be lost, without adversely affecting type.
Unfortunately, the "Burmese head fault", a lethal deformity that requires euthanasia, came hand-in-hand with the "Contemporary" look. Just as Fan Tee Cee changed the shape of the Siamese, one cat changed the shape of the American Burmese from the moderate foreign shape to the "pug-like" short-nosed, round-headed, barrel-chested look. The widespread head defect in the American Burmese breed is due to a prolific stud cat named Good Fortune Fortunatas (National Best Burmese in 1977). Although the head defect was present before Good Fortune Fortunatas, it was his influence on the breed that has made it prevalent today. Fortunatas was judged an excellent example of the cobbier, dome-headed "contemporary" Burmese that was diverging from the type recognised elsewhere in the world. As more people wanted the new look in their breeding lines so Fortunatas's lethal legacy spread. .
Almost every litter Fortunatas sired contained show quality offspring that went on to produce more show quality offspring with the new look. Since 1978, almost all Burmese national winners can trace their lineage back to Fortunatas and he literally, and lethally, changed the face of the breed. His name turns up multiple timed on pedigrees, bringing with it the lethal head defect recessive gene. This gene would only show up when carriers were mated together and grossly malformed kittens were born. By this time the gene was widespread. Neutering all possible carriers (all descendents of Fortunatas) would decimate the American Burmese gene pool. Only cats that produce deformed offspring are retired from breeding, but by then they may already have passed on the hidden recessive. This is the danger when one individual has excessive influence in a small gene pool. As a result of the new head shape and Fortunatas's lethal legacy, the American Burmese is is prohibited from competion in Europe and American bloodlines may not be introduced into European gene pools. Burmese cats in Europe, Australia and New Zealand were not influenced by the Fortunatus look and remained free of the hereditary fault; in addition, occasional outcrossing to introduce new colours has ensured that European lines do not become so inbred. Meanwhile, American Burmese breeders hope a blood test will one day identify the lethal allele and allow carriers to be identified.
Another example of a lethal gene which determines a breed trait is the blue-eyed Ojos Azules. The gene is lethal in the homozygous form causing stillbirth, cranial deformities, white fur and a small curled tail. In the heterozygous form, the Ojos Azules are blue eyed non-white cats. Breeders must therefore breed blue-eyed cats (heterozygous) to non-blue-eyed cats (lacking the gene for the eye colour, but having the conformation) in order to get a roughly 50/50 split of blue-eyed and non-blue-eyed kittens while avoiding deformed dead kittens.
The more that inbreeding is used to get rid of undesirable traits or to fix a desirable trait, the more likely it is that individuals will also inherit the same set of genes for the immune system from both parents, and be born with less vigourous immune systems. The immune system problem is compounded over successive generations as the animals become genetically more uniform (like the cheetah). According to one theory, immunodeficiency may be caused by a simple lack of heterozygosity in the genes that control the immune system. This is why random-bred cats are generally so robust.
Breeder and author Phyllis Lauder wrote in 1981: "Favoured varieties of today have been bred sire to daughter and cousin to cousin until their breeds are ruined [...] man's insistence on upon breeding in order to perpetuate features approved in the show ring has produced animals of weak constitution, prone to such conditions as skin troubles, lacking in intelligence, no longer mentally alert, eventually stupid; and at last breeding with difficulty: a state of affairs leading in the end to the sterility and death of the breed."
Zoos engaged in captive breeding programs are aware of this need to outcross their own stock to animals from other collections. Captive populations are at risk from inbreeding since relatively few mates are available to the animals, hence zoos must borrow animals from each other in order to maintain the genetic diversity of offspring. In sheep, centuries of selective breeding to improve the quality of wool has caused an important trait to be lost. Ancestral sheep could breed more than once per year. Modern sheep breed once per year. Only recently has the importance of the lost gene been realised (i.e. to increase meat yield), but to reintroduce it from primitive sheep would reduce other qualities selectively bred for over centuries.
Most laboratory mice are becoming so highly inbred that they would probably not survive outside of a sterile laboratory due to poor immune systems (they are generally killed before this becomes a problem in the laboratory situation) and some strains become extinct due to reproductive failure. Many are selectively bred to exhibit defects which will kill them.
Inbreeding holds problems for anyone involved in animal husbandry - from canary fanciers to farmers. Early Turkish Vans were reported to be temperamental, a problem apparently rectified by the importation of new stock. Attempts to change the appearance of Burmese cats in America to produce a cat with a rounder head resulted in cats with congenital problems. Siamese cats have become progressively finer-boned as breeders strive to emphasise the foreign look, resulting in frailer cats in some breeding lines.
In the dog world, a number of breeds now exhibit hereditary faults due to the over-use of a particularly "typey" stud which was later found to carry a gene detrimental to health. By the time the problems came to light they had already become widespread as the stud had been extensively used to "improve" the breed. In the past some breeds were crossed with dogs from different breeds in order to improve type, but nowadays the emphasis is on preserving breed purity and avoiding mongrels.
Those involved with minority breeds (rare breeds) of livestock face a dilemma as they try to balance purity against the risk of genetic conformity. Enthusiasts preserve minority breeds because their genes may prove useful to farmers in the future, but at the same time the low numbers of the breed involved means that it runs the risk of becoming unhealthily inbred. When trying to bring a breed back from the point of extinction, the introduction of "new blood" through crossing with an unrelated breed is usually a last resort because it can change the very character of the breed being preserved (as noted by cat fanciers when Russian Blues were crossed to Blue Point Siamese after World War II). In livestock, successive generations of progeny must be bred back to a purebred ancestor for 6 - 8 generations before the offspring can be considered purebred themselves.
In the cat fancy, breed purity is equally desirable, but can be taken to ridiculous lengths. Some fancies will not recognise "hybrid" breeds such as the Tonkinese because it produces variants (yet Manxes are recognised and also produce variants). Breeds which cannot produce some degree of variability among their offspring risk finding themselves in the same predicament as Cheetahs and Giant Pandas. Such fancies have lost sight of the fact that they are registering "pedigree" cats, not "pure-bred" cats, especially since they may recognise breeds which require occasional outcrossing to maintain type!
The breed purity debate goes along these lines: should a breed be based on genotype (what genes it inherited) or phenotype (appearance, despite an out-cross four generations ago) A Tabby-point Siamese is phenotypically Siamese, but because the tabby pattern was introduced from non-Siamese cats, genotype-followers consider it "not Siamese" and are worried it will pollute their purebred breeding lines. In some registries, Exotic Longhairs are identical to Persians, but may not be bred with Persians. Likewise, some registries do not allow chocolate or lilac Persians to be classed as Persians because the colours were introduced from Siamese cats (via the Himalayan breed) umpteen generations ago and are therefore "tainted". Those "tainted" genes may be bundled with whole lot of healthy genes; by not outcrossing "purebreds" to "tainted" cats, the opportunity to increase the heterozygosity of the immune system is lost (there is a footnote on phenotype/genotype/purebred/pedigree philosophies).
One formula to reduce inbreeding and slow down the loss of vigour is to line-breed for 2-3 generation and then out-cross to an unrelated line (or occasionally another breed) to get back hybrid vigour and genetic diversity. However with the emphasis on breeding for type and competitiveness on the showbench (and when making a sale), the typey studs get used more and more often and there is less and less chance of finding a truly unrelated line.
See The Pros and Cons of Cloning for further discussion on inbreeding hazards should cloning of typey animals become permissible.
EFFECT OF SELECTIVE BREEDING ON GENETIC DIVERSITY
In their study comparing the genetics of several breeds (Lipinski MJ, et al., The ascent of cat breeds: genetic evaluations of breeds and worldwide random-bred populations, Genomics (2007), researchers found artificial selection had reduced genetic diversity within single breeds. The study confirmed that cat breeds are less genetically diverse than random-bred cats. Lipinski et al, found that loss of diversity did not correlate with breed popularity or age, but did correlate with the number of foundation animals from which a breed was established (and the degree of permitted outcrossing). The Burmese, Havana Brown, Singapura, and Sokoke were least genetically diverse.
The Burmese and Singapura breeds were the least genetically diverse of the breeds sampled, reflectting the most intense inbreeding . The Burmese was descended from a Tonkinese-type female called Wong Mau. The Singapura is largely a derivative of the Burmese in spite of a fanciful mythology about it being an indigenous Singaporean cat (in Holland there are cats identical to the Singapura that have been bred from wholly Burmese lines). The Sokoke is a recent breed being developed from a small pool of distinctive looking cats found in the Sokoke forest region of Kenya. Outside of the USA, the Havana brown is a colour variant of Oriental cats.
The Siberian was the most genetically diverse and comparable to the genetic diversity in random-bred cats due to having a broad foundation stock. The Norwegian Forest Cat, Persian (and related Exotic) and British Shorthair were also genetically diverse, reflecting multiple lineages (the Persian was developed in the 19th century from a mix of Turkish, Russian and British longhairs and other genes have crept in along the way during the development of other breeds; including Siamese genes and even rex genes).
IMPLICATIONS OF INBREEDING FOR THE CAT BREEDER
Most cat breeders are well aware of potential pitfalls associated with inbreeding although it is tempting for a novice to continue to use one or two closely related lines in order to preserve or improve type. Breeding to an unrelated line of the same breed (where possible) or outcrossing to another breed (where permissible) can ensure vigour. Despite the risk of importing a few undesirable traits which may take a while to breed out, outcrossing can prevent a breed from stagnating by introducing fresh genes into the gene pool. It is important to outcross to a variety of different cats, considered to be genetically "sound" (do any of their previous offspring exhibit undesirable traits?) and preferably not closely related to each other. Outcrossing is made difficult by the amount of inbreeding in previous generations - it becomes hard to find cats which are not related, sometimes several times over.
How can you tell if a breed or line is becoming too closely inbred? One sign is that of reduced fertility in either males or females. Male Cheetahs are known to have a low fertility rate. Failure to conceive, small litter sizes and high kitten mortality on a regular basis indicates that the cats may be becoming too closely related. The loss of a large proportion of cats to one disease (e.g. enteritis) indicates that the cats are losing/have lost immune system diversity. If 50% of individuals in a breeding program die of a simple infection, there is cause for concern.
Highly inbred cats also display abnormalities on a regular basis as "bad" genes become more widespread. These abnormalities can be simple undesirable characteristics such as misaligned jaws (poor bite) or more serious deformities. Sometimes a fault can be traced to a single stud or queen which should be removed from the breeding program even if it does exhibit exceptional type. If its previous progeny are already breeding it's tempting to think "Pandora's Box is already open and the damage done so I'll turn a blind eye". Ignoring the fault and continuing to breed from the cat will cause the faulty genes to become even more widespread in the breed, causing problems later on if its descendants are bred together.
One breed which was almost lost because of inbreeding is the American Bobtail. Inexperienced breeders tried to produce a colourpoint bobtailed cat with white boots and white blaze and which bred true for type and colour, but only succeeded in producing unhealthy inbred cats with poor temperaments. A later breeder had to outcross the small fine-boned cats she took on, at the same time abandoning the rules governing colour and pattern, in order to reproduce the large, robust cats required by the standard and get the breed on a sound genetic footing.

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GENOMICS
As well as recording matings and tracing pedigrees, modern biologists can look for genetic evidence of inbreeding in an individual's genome (genomics). Zoologist Bill Amos at Cambridge University, England analyses genetic markers to assess how closely related an individual's parents are. This allows them to look at the effect of inbreeding in wild populaitons, something previously difficult or impossible as it was not possible to trace pedigrees. Although not foolproof, blood testing and genetic analysis can indicate how closely animals are related.
As well as inheriting copies of genes from each parent, animals inherit sections of non-coding ("junk") DNA which can be used as genetic markers and are known as microsatellites. As well as being homozygous or heterozygous for genes, animals can be homozygous or heterozygous for these microsatellites. Even without inbreeding, some markers are naturally more widespread in a population than others. Looking at several markers at a time gives a better measure of relatedness (the more markers which can be tracked, the better the results). Some of those markers may be next door to beneficial or harmful genes (or, because many genes work in association with other genes, next door to genes which are influenced by other "good" or "bad" genes elsewhere in the genome) - in the absence of artificial selection by breeders, markers next to "good" genes will be more widespread than those next to "bad" genes because the "bad" genes make the animal less likely to survive.
The technique is not foolproof, but if Amos's currently controversial calculations do turn out to be correct, inbreeding is more damaging than previously realised and even cousin-cousin matings may result in inbreeding depression. His studies suggest inbreeding is more important than environmental challenges in determining an individual's chances of survival. The "degree of microsatellite homozygosity" (what Amos calls "internal relatedness") means the number of identical markers. Animals with high microsatellite homozygosity fare worse than highly heterozygous individuals. In island-living wild Soay sheep, those with higher homozygosity also had more parasitic worms and were more likely to be sick.
Amos suggests that the disadvantages of inbreeding are more pervasive than previous suspected. In the past, inbreeding was considered relatively unimportant compared to environmental challenges such as finding food, finding mates or avoiding predators. Amos suggests that animals with higher internal relatedness produce fewer young and suffer more from disease, parasites or cancer. In nature, inbred individuals tend not to survive; this removes harmful mutations from the population. Inbreeding depression is known to affect the immune system. Artificial selection by breeders means genetically weak individuals, which would normally be weeded out by natural selection, get a chance to pass on their mutations to another generation and, being more prone to disease, will need more medical care during their lifetimes than less inbred individuals.
As well as selecting animals for physical traits, it is important to select them for health traits as the prevalence of Polycystic Kidney Disease in Persians and Exotics demonstrates. Registries may have to permit more outcrossing between breeds to ensure the vigour of any single breed. Currently, many gene pools are closed (no more outcrossing) when the desired traits are fixed and a certain population level is reached.
CONCLUSION
Inbreeding is a two-edged sword. On the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can fix and improve type to produce excellent quality animals. On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses vigour. Breeds in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as numbers are small and the cats may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against crossings with unrelated cats in order to maintain the overall health of the line or breed concerned.
FOOTNOTE: THE CHEETAH
In January 2003, India announced plans to clone cheetahs to help restore the Indian sub-continent's now extinct cheetah population. India plan to clone cheetahs from Iran where about 50 Asiatic Cheetahs remain.
Cloning creates genetically identical individuals. However, cheetahs are already so highly inbred that individuals are already almost genetically identical so the impact of clones on the population will be to increase numbers rather than further decease genetic variation. If it uses the leopard's own egg cells it would introduce the leopard's mitochondrial DNA (the DNA found in an egg cell) into the cheetah population.
FOOTNOTE: PUREBRED VS PEDIGREE; PHENOTYPE VS GENOTYPE
There is a long-running and often bitter in several cat registries about recognising and perpetuating breeds based on phenotype or on genotype. Phenotype means "what it looks like" while genotype means "its genetic make-up". The latter requires a cat's pedigree to be known over several generations and for the pedigree to contain only cats of the same breed.
The debate has been a long-running one among breeders of Persian and Siamese cats; this is hardly surprising as recognition of these two breeds dates back to the dawn of the cat fancy in the 1870s and 1880s. Should the "new" colours of Siamese (red points, tortie points etc) be recognised as Siamese or should they be kept separate e.g. as Javanese, because their bloodlines are not pure; the same applies to self chocolate and self lilac in Persians since these colours came from the Siamese via the colourpoint Persian (Himalayan). Among rare breed livestock breeders, the 7th generation offspring of an outcross is considered purebred if each generation of offpring have been backcrossed to a pure bred animal following the initial outcross. In cat breeding, the only remaining trait from the outcross might be the new colour, but among extremely pro-genotype cat breeders, that bloodline is considered forever tainted by the outcross and will never produce "purebred" cats. Some pro-genotype breeders admit to wanting cat fancying to remain an elite hobby, with only "purebred" cats tracing back to original stock being accepted for breeding.
Among pro-phenotype breeders, the situation is somewhat different. If it looks like a Siamese in all respects, apart from the new colour, then it is accepted as a Siamese regardless of mixed ancestry several generations back. They accuse the pro-genotype breeders of unnecessary snobbery and point out the dangers of inbreeding. The separation of the new colours of Siamese and Persians is considered artificial since the cats' conformation is unchanged.
As mentioned earlier, pro-genotype cat fanciers lose sight of the fact that they are registering pedigree cats - pedigree does not mean the same as purebred! All breeds began based on phenotype i.e. what they looked like. For example, naturally occurring cats with a particular "look" might gathered together and called a breed e.g. the British Shorthair or Maine Coon. These are considered natural breeds. Even where the foundation cats are pedigree members of different breeds, the new breed is selected for, and refined, according to its appearance. In the early days of a breed it sometimes becomes necessary to accept cats of unknown ancestry but appropriate appearance into the breed to expand the bloodlines and prevent a dangerous level of inbreeding. All breeds have to start somewhere - and that somewhere has a phenotypic basis.
One danger, pointed out by pro-genotype breeders is that accepting "lookalike" cats into a breed with a known genotype can introduce unwelcome unknown genes which could become widespread and result in undesirable traits later on. If the two faction, pro-genotype and pro-phenotype, diverge any further, it will result in different variants of breeds being recognised - not just a split along tradition vs classic vs contemporary lines, but a split along the lines of "Phenotypic Siamese" and "Genotypic Siamese" with the two strains no longer being interbred for fear of taining the genotypically "pure" variety. Isolating a strain to keep its genotype pure means it will inevitably become inbred.
There needs to be a sensible balance. When enough generations have elapsed, a descendant far removed from the original outcross is, to all intents and purposes, purebred. The variation in its genes from the outcross is probably no greater than the variation due to natural mutation. Breeds in their infancy may need to pursue phenotypic breeding programs until the gene pool is wide enough to support breeding along genotypic lines. To revisit the example of Siamese cats - the early imports may have been seal and the earliest colours seal, blue, chocolate and lilac, but in their homeland, as I have witnessed on the streets of Malaysia and Thailand, colourpoint cats occur in all colours! It is only a quirk of cat fancy history that has led to those first four colours being declared true Siamese colours and the others being considered "introduced" colours.

    

you are so welcome justin!! Glad i could help

here is another theory that I have developed and I got this idea from a breed of dog that has long hair...I don't remember the breed other than it is a stock working dog...

The standard for that particular breed calls for a certain length of hair...but over generations the hair continues to get longer...that particular statement caught my eye and I got to thinking about it and it helped me with the idea I already had...they went on to say that it was a known fact and that they bred to a shorter haired dog that didn't meet the required length of hair in their standard...but they used that type of dog to correct the longer haired problem...

I believed that hunting traits can actually intensify when we breed for them and if we constantly select for the most hunt in every breeding within a family...same with grit...Some folks will tell you that a dog can only pass what is in them genetically and maybe that is true...but it has been said that when left to mother nature the dogs will evolve to an average, so by selecting one can manipulate mother nature and this will intensify and purify the desired traits...

when one takes a look at field trial dogs of the past like the hounds...we see how hard and long range these dogs have gotten at one time or another...some of these dogs will kick up dust and rocks in your face when they roll out and will get deep in a hurry...when those dogs get turned loose we are hunting for dogs and we wonder if we will get them back tonight or ever...  :-\  some field trailers have taken their particular brand of dog and have taken them to a higher level of hunt and competitiveness...so much that the average hunter would stay away from those type of dogs...definitely not for the old folks...  :)

I saw a higher level of grit in some of my dogs towards the end as well as hunt until heat stroke because I bred for more hunt and more grit...not all dogs but it kept popping up and in reality these type of traits will eventually breed out because both of these traits can and will get a dog killed thus taking him or her out of the breeding program...

It is amazing to me how through selection we have the dachshund to the greyhound to the great dane etc...etc...

the intensifying in hunting traits is only a theory of mine so...don't take it as fact...just something to think about...  :)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/16/atyja7ub.jpg)


Dont you have some victor dog food to sell or peachcreekcatahoulas to work??? ;)

Filial degeneration fellas filial degeneration... Happens to the best of us lol

I am of the same mind on this. If phenotype can be set by breeding pattern, so should working traits.

some of the studies you will see  is  hundrreds of years of  genetic interpitations ...thats not gonna effect what we do in short term ....most people will be lucky to breed 5 generations of dogs in there lifetime ... most of us start our breeding programs  years after we start hunting ...

Yessir.....where's that time machine

Good info

Larry...I agree with what you are saying...we can breed 3 generations in 20 years or turn them over fast and get 7 generations...for me, my logic was to keep second and third generation males for hunting and breeding but mainly the third generation male...line breeding and inbreeding him...kept quite a few males off of him and hunted them...I felt like I could use these pups/dogs for hunting and breeding when needed...but the females I sometimes bred on the first heat if I knew they were what I was breeding for and I turned them over quickly to move ahead with the line as well as in purifying the strain...I did this project for me and it worked out great...once I felt like I was where I needed to be I slowed it way down...

But here is anorher way of looking at it...the majority of the dogs I started with were purebred mt cur with one bmc at the beginning for size and quieter mouth...the mt curs were already top bred hunting dogs of many generations prior...I also had a Texas Smoke mt cur bitch that was out of Texas Smoke and out of one of his daughters...I planned that strategy because of his greatness...but those were already an established line of dogs...I just picked up and moved it further but in the direction for hog dogs and not tree dogs. In my mind there is no reason why someone needs to start with junk when they can do the homework and start with a good line of hog dogs...

One of the members on here that used to roll pits said that he'd had a puppy come out of his dogs that was colored differently than anything he's seen in his dogs. Said he traced the color back many generations in the dogs pedigree. If color can pop up like that, why not other traits ?

I say 10-4 on that...had 2 chocolate pups pop up in my dogs 10-12 years apart...

The puppy was traced back to the Blu Phal dogs of the late 1700's.  I had put a pic of a hand painting bulldog of the late 1700's on here at one time don't know if its still on here are not . 

those pop ups  i get rid of ....  i keep just the brindles and tri colored brindles or black ......

Your right Larry.  I would have been scared to breed him aint no telling what part of the gene pool we would have ended up with had we done it .  Its hard enuff like it is without throwing a monkey wrench in there .

But here is anorher way of looking at it...the majority of the dogs I started with were purebred mt cur with one bmc at the beginning for size and quieter mouth...the mt curs were already top bred hunting dogs of many generations prior...I also had a Texas Smoke mt cur bitch that was out of Texas Smoke and out of one of his daughters...I planned that strategy because of his greatness...but those were already an established line of dogs...I just picked up and moved it further but in the direction for hog dogs and not tree dogs. In my mind there is no reason why someone needs to start with junk when they can do the homework and start with a good line of hog dogs...

X2  Reuben

There are some really nice proven lines out there  of just about every breed or cross.  Starting out with above average dogs over a average dog will take you a long long ways and put you ahead of the game.  not to mention by starting out with an above average dog you eliminate some of the defects and bad traits that your try'n to stay away from.

A lot a great info for guys new to breeding and for guys thats been doing it a while.

I really don't know the answer to your question...but they say the sire and the dam contribute equally...

here is what I have read on it and these are just theories...let's say the dam is the pit bull...the pups learn through behavior to act somewhat like the dam because they spend quite a bit of time with her as pups...this is a learned behavior...

Another man wrote a story about some of his thoughts on the dam...at first I didn't believe cause it was way out there...he was saying that everything is about chemical reactions and he was talking about the pregnant dam in general...his example was that when one worries that we react differently but some generate more stomach acid than others and some quite a few will get acid indigestion and that is one example of chemical reactions...he was saying that why can not unborn pups not learn from the mamas excitement and hunting technique...he said that when the dam is running a track and smelling the coon scent and becoming excited over it that that could somehow transfer to the pups because after all they are connected to her...and when she catches and kills a coon that they can feel and react to the dams reactions/actions...so it is possible that these pups are born to hunt coon and we might think that they are natural coon dogs and some might be but others might already be preconditioned to run and catch game because the dam was hunted until she was about to give birth...

after reading and thinking on it it made a lot of sense to me...I didn't really answer your question but hopefully it gives you something to think about...

  well I will tell you about sire and dame in chicken talk  lol   if you breed a green legged rooster to a yellow leg hen . the young rooster or [ stags ] will all have yellow legs and the pullets will all be green legged . so transfered into dogs the gyp pups would have more traits from the sire and the male pups will have more of the dames genes . and I have noticed this with the breedings in dogs I have made on the yard .  so yes the sire and dame play equally in the breedings  . so with the bird dogs x bull dog cross in your example the male was a bird dog   , so the gyp pups would be more prone to taking the bull dog side and the males more the bird dog attributes .

 there is what you call a dominate breeder ..... and those usually throw more likeness to themselves