EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Can someone please explain what exactly is an early starting help dog?

A cull

Sure....I can explain it since your referring to me!

The gyp was started on pigs at 12 weeks and bayed first time in pen with my Jasper pup.

When her sister started up...a week or two later...they would catch the pig...very little barking.

At 5 months I was mock hunting them and again..with Jasper she wasn't to bad but....together they would catch.

By 10 months i had them in the woods and they were just to rough together. I quit hunting them both with Jasper and only took one or the other.

At right around a year I moved her sister to a guy that runs 1 Strike and 3 RCD's. Mica Beck in Mineral Wells. He loves her.

Bella I kept hunting with Jasper but he outshined her and took the lead role. She would run fairly well with him while hunting but in my yard i just consider her a help dog. The last time I hunted her they were all on a bad hog. The story is posted if you care to look it up. I quit hunting her after that and kept her for the sole purpose of this breeding.

Any further explanation needed?

Come on Jody...everyone knows that's a help dog that helps best on early morning hunts.

   lol that's a good one  how bout early evening hunts as well ?  don't worry about them kevin it's hard to be politically correct when describing something in the dog trade . kinda like you ain't supposed to say illegal immigrant anymore . I guess we need to call young dogs undocumented hog dogs now   lol .

Mr. Whitten, what the he!! We suppose to call them illegal border jumpers (dont forget there is a northern border too. Aint aimed at 1 single country, so dont throw the mexican race card)? They aint immigrant, they just a plain ole' illegal, or a terrorist

I'd like to hear alittle more if you don't mind...

Ofcourse I'm sure you already know I'm not a fan of help dogs..
But I'd like to see what your point of view is on the following??

What do you expect from this litter?
Why was that particular gyp used?
Would you be satisfied with a whole pack just like her?

I wish everyone wld do they homework and wld only breed proven dogs and well bred dogs like Bob Owens,clue Anderson,bob cox etc..there wld be alot less culls..the problem is that most ppl have never really seen a top notch dog...when i started huntin i always wanted to breed my best dogs,they wld find me hogs,so i was like wth.,,but then i met this guy and i took him huntin,,hes dogs made my dogs look like trash ,,i decided to get rid of erything i had but my best dog,,went around and picked up some well bred yella pups and now im where i always wanted to be..i aint got time to experiment,,i rather take a short cut , cuz,true dog men like the ones listed above have already done all the experimenting that needs to b done

2x coyotes or sewer rats!
lol

Well to be honest one of my best dogs came frome a jam up strike dog (dad) and a help dog (mom) we where just starting out with our own pups Thats all we had to start with sooo we got 9 pups 6 where left and all six are going out far and striking there own or winning in a baypen ..so my moral to this story is you dont have to breed great dog to great dog you take a chance when you breed anything and get culls all day long i have seen many litters now out of awesome dogs that dont amount to nothing.

If you raise yur own dogs you have no one to blame or point fingers at but yur self. U can always tell how good of a. Dog person he is by his bone pile

Lol

So there is no bag limit or season on them? Why r they a problem then? Use 1 to draw the nxt 1 in n drop it

Justin Id be glad to expand.

What do I expect from this litter? I EXPECT every one of them to be at minimum a good help dog (my definition, and I'll get to that in a minute). I EXPECT at least 1 or 2 to be at least as good as the Sire. I wouldn't call him Jam up at this point but he's a lead dog in a WHOLE lot of yards. What I HOPE is to get one that shows traits of both (just like everyone else who breeds their dogs).

Why was this particular gyp used? Because I like her confirmation, I like her kennel personality. I like her handle. I like her focus and drive while she's engaged or on the track of a hog. She is rough and if I can get just some of that mixed with what Jasper shows I'll be happy, happy, happy!

Would I be satisfied with a whole pack of dogs just like her? No I wouldn't. Six or Eight dogs like her don't fit my style of hunting. She is to rough for my liking.

Some boys have had jam up dogs in their families for years and some boys have access to Jam up dogs. For most of us are LUCKY to acquire 1 jam up or better than average dog early on. We do what we can with what we have and in my case...what I have I don't want to lose. Point of fact...I would be happy to have a couple more just like my best dog. This breeding gives me a CHANCE to replicate what I HAVE and hopefully get a step closer to what I WANT.

As far as help dogs go....I'm not embarrassed to say I own one or two because......I guess my definition of a help dog is a little different than most.

As far as in concerned....if it ain't your lead dog....it's a help dog (in your yard). Plain and simple.

Apologies Justin....mixed up there....Twill...hope I expanded for you.

I think I understand why you feel that everything that ain't the lead dog is a help dog now Kevin. When you hunt, you put all the dogs you brought with on the ground and start moving/hunting don't you?

This won't lead to one of my famous smartass one liners, I'm just taking a guess at how you hunt, am I right or wrong?

 kevin, very well said. we all have our personal definition of a help dog, which what some look as a help dog in their yard to be a cull, is a better dog than what some may hav in their yards. I find it nearly nill to have every dog in a yard to be a supper star equally even with the rest. I would more than likely call BS till proven that each and every dog is an equal to the others and ALL are the best dogs in the world, till then some1 elses dogs may be better or worse than other folks dogs, but it all falls to eyes of the beholder.

Well HS, not to argue or cut down on the dogs bred by the men you mentioned above because i know they bred good dogs BUT i personally dont want to take a short cut......i want to do it on my own, for me......i want to look back 30yrs down the road and say damn, i did pretty good, i bred, hunted and culled until my eyes crossed but now look at what I have, a yard full of sure enough true to the core hog dogs........maybe im in it for different reasons than some but when my day comes (hopefully not for a long time) i want people to remember me for the line of dogs I bred and raised......

Yessir....id say over the past few months I've done about equal parts walk hunting/ roading. I never leave a dog in the box walk hunting. When its me by myself I hunt 2 and a CD usually. Me with one man (with dogs) 2 to 3 depending. When I hunt with a group I bring just Jasper. Sometimes he's help sometimes he's lead....just depends on what dogs are there. I don't like leaving dogs in the box walk hunting...no sense in it to me. Roading/hood hunting....different story.

I like it Justin!

X2!!!

K. I'm not agreeing, disagreeing or telling you how to do it, just makin a guess cuz I had the same view back when I did alot of walk hunting. I have since changed my strategy, mind and seen different results. I let one dog out and either hunt till they strike or drop them on a trail or wallow. Once they're gone out of ear shot, I can (if I choose) leave the first one to it and keep hunting for another spot to turn out the next one.


Blah blah blah...

What I've found is I can evaluate who can do what alot better this way. Instead of a pup who "hunts out with the big dogs" I can see wether they can even smell something, have interest in it, and will cast on it. If they don't I'll put an older dog on it instead to see if maybe I'm wrong about the trail. If not, put the pup back down with em.
If the first dog bays and these dogs can hear it, they should honor (usually will, but don't have to)

When I walk hunted, the dog with the most talent would dominate, and all the others got increasingly more "helpy". That's the natural progression among dogs when you just toss them to eachother and let them make the rules. (your help dogs MAY have it in them to hunt for themselves if you start asking them too.) While it was a good way to get all the other dogs on lots of hogs, it taught them to not hunt, but instead to pack. I don't desire my dogs to pack, I would rather they each hunt. So after I hunted with some guys I really look up to, I simply stole the tricks I saw them using and brought em down south.
I found that some dogs who are natural followers actually do really really really freaking well when you flip the script on them! And I found that one dog who I thought was a good strike dog was actually much slower and less effective than I'd figured once I took all the fast curs off of his trail barking a$$.  ;D

Well anyway. That's what I've seen, maybe it'll be of use to you.

heck now you ain't even posed to call a person a terrorist. Now its "freedom fighters"

T-bob....I appreciate your input and it all makes good sense. I can see my hunting style evolving as my hunting locations do as well. As it stands...I have just one spot I can hunt almost anytime I want and it's public access not ATVs. It is for all intensive purposes ....drop and walk only. I can possibly do some individual casting at some spots on this place (the parking areas basically) and may give it a try (thank you!).

Other than that I'm pretty much hunting how my buddies want to hunt until I get a few spots.

I understand that logic fully bud. I've had the same kind of luck for several years as it pertains to my own hunting spots, my fortunes have started changing latley and with it, my strategies.

Best of luck to you Kevin.

Like

Justin itll be very difficult....but it can sure be done

and cull hard thats what ive been thought

I meant taught

Makes a whole lotta sense T-bob. I like that strategy .

Guess I just can't get a hold on this with dog feed at $27 a bag, and the value of my time invested!   It don't matter how you word it, sugar coat it,  justify it!  "that little white speck on the top of chicken mess, it's chicken mess too".

I expect to be able to turn out any dog in my kennels by itself and have it find and bay a hog by itself.  Is their a clear cut best dog I'm feeding yes, but all of them can and do find their own and bay their own. I just dont see any point in running help dogs, but thats my .02.

My graveyard has a graveyard

;)

You can have your own opinion on what you would and wouldn't feed but that's as far as it goes.

Call a mans dog number 2e when you've never even seen it hunt?
That boys is the definition of ignorance.

I see how you took that personal that was not the intention.... I have been reading several post on breeding better dogs, and in my mind that is how I see improvement to catch more hogs!

Aww hell Kevin, I wouldn't worry to much about it, I don't think he meant to disrespect you are your dogs........I dont know much about anything, well other than welds and if they will do what they are supposed to lol BUT 1 thing I do know........... If you are happy with the hogs you catch and the dogs in your yard thats all that matters, bottom line......always...ALWAYS strive to produce better dogs and you, me n everyone else will all be in high cotton my friend!

I'm not for breeding help dogs in anyway but I understand what you are trying to accomplish and can see the passion you have for them.

My only argument is that with the two gene pools you are crossing; you are allowing for a much larger variation of great.. Average.. And $hitty genes. With the male being a good young dog and the female being a scatter bred gritty help dog. Your chances of hitting a home run on a pup are slim but still very possible. Theres just so msny different gene pools you are pulling from and the gyp being average to below average severely lowers that possibility of throwing great dogs.

My gripe is that you have some of the pups up for sale, after choosing your few favorites based on very little raw data at such a young age. If you really are serious about recreating the sire, it would be in your best interest to keep ALL of the pups. Cull extremely hard on all the negative traits, with the few that make it, you can then begin to breed a female back to the sire or even cross brother and sister to tighten those positive genes even more. I feel like you have a good grasp on the process but are going about it the wrong way. The chance that one or two you keep happens to be what you want out of the litter are very slim in my opinion.


T-bob: great post... It's like high school baseball players and Major League Baseball players. Both play ball but the degrees at which they succeed and showcase talent are at opposite ends of the spectrum

Tshelly, i agree 100% about how you would go about breeding back to produce the best results. I also agree that the BEST way to see what you are working with is to keep the entire litter and take the absolute cream of the crop and cull the rest... no questions asked. Stay true to what you are striving to achieve and always keep the end result in the back of your head, kennel blindness sucks and can really hurt the overall quality of dog.....i have 1 at the house now that is almost at the end of the plank so to say.....he is a pup out of my best dog(a dog im tryin like hell to replicate multiple times.....so far im 1 for 2...it'll be 2 for 2 pending the pup im talkin abouts future improvement).....anyway, everyone that comes to the house and looks at my yard are all drawn to him, he is dang near the perfect specimen looks/conformation wise at least in my eyes BUT looks dont find and catch hogs..... Judgement day is coming.

The funny thing is that the pup that has turned out aint near as good looks wise but is a hunting machine lol.

TShelly, I hear you....keeping them all was my plan in the beginning then I changed my mind because I picked up a good blooded young pup and had my mind made uo that i wanted two other pups from two sepperate breedings.

As it stands now...the lack of interest in my pups has made me take another turn, lol. I guess I will be keeping them all and honestly...I'm fine with that. Now...I will have to pass on a pup from one of those breedings but not the other...I'd be stupid if I did.

Anyhow....in gonna be puppy poor for a while  ;D

Heck....training young 'uns is one of the things I like the most anyway.

Hell kevin, i broke down and just built a big arse puppy pen in the yard, sure made it alot easier..... Now when a new one comes to the house if its old enough i just drop em in with the rest and if not it goes in my kennels within the puppy pen until it can hold its own..... figure its a great way for em to socialize together while growing up. Currently i have 5 in the pen lol.

Well Justin...we think alike. Many years ago I did the exact same thing. Had a litter of 12 I kept until they were 12 weeks. These were bred right pen dog puppies and its fairly easy to tell what's what at an early age when your talkin about strictly bay pen dogs. Anyhow...I built a 20X80 puppy pen out of 36" welded wire. Worked great! Easy to step over...no gates to worry about. Lots of space...they could run and play. Eventually my keepers started climbing out but it was time to move them to kennels by then anyway.

I have the same plans in mind this go round.

10 4 Kevin. I bought 2 1x2x48" 100ft sections of horse fence and used 6 4x4's and 20 t-posts and built one roughly 50x40, then ran barb wire around the top and bottom to deter em from digging and jumping. The way i figure it is When they are big enough to jump out at the gate they are big enough to be on a chain...... I have 5 pups from 10wks to 5mths in there now with plenty of room to run and play, probly the best couple hundred ive spent in regards to my dogs. I can throw the pups in a 10x10 off the ground kennel within the pen and drop a hog into the pen to let the bigger young dogs work a bit and the puppies are right in the action but safe.....i think its gonna work out good for em in the future.

That sounds REAL nice!

Damn good idea justin, kevin, the 20x80 is a lil to big for me, but it would work for my small needs.