EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

ATTN: contestants, volunteers, spectators, etc. I would like some feedback on what needs improving to make the TDHA contest bigger and better for 2009.  Any thoughts are appreciated, and we would like to see what needs to be addressed while things are still fresh on our mind.

Some things that have been mentioned so far include.

-Improved PA for announcing weights
-Larger weigh in area, with more visibility for spectators


What are we missing? What ideas do you have to make the contest bigger and BETTER.

Circle C

Some kind of portable skinning/cleaning area to hang the pigs from, or bigger tables and more people to help clean and sort meat and hogs on. I'll talk to the Wildlife club on campus about getting some "reinforcements" up there next year for ya'll  ;)

Other then that who do you need to talk to about booth booking? I may know some orginizations/clubs that maybe interested in this type of event.

Contact Cody Weiser at WBUSA about booth bookings. The expo gets bigger every year, and I can't wait to see it next year.

Cody's email is wildboar@brutalboarcreations.com. His phone number is 1-866-307-1999 (toll free).


We'd love your help in getting us more volunteers for next year. This year, the contest doubled our expectations. Kind of caught us off guard :O) Next year, I think we should plan and be prepared for at least 25,000 lbs of pork. That is going to affect (like you said) how much room we have for the processing. There is another wash area like we were in at the other end of the expo center. We can plan to have that area set up for cleaning as well. I too felt we were cramped in the wash area, and there just wasn't room for all that was going on in there. We will just have to plan bigger for next year!
THanks!
M

Chris,
Since the TDHA site gremlins   :-\ have still not seen fit to allow me to post over there, I'll put a couple of suggestions here.

1)  There should be some means to allow a team's heavy hog in the combined weight, if it doesn't win heavy boar/sow.  I understand not paying out on the same hog in the heavy boar/sow and combined weight.  But if a hog doesn't make heavy boar/sow for the contest, it should be counted in a teams 3 hog weight.  Just my opinion.

2)  By the end of the day Sunday we were throwing a lot of meat away because it had gone bad.  It seemed like the first hogs in Sunday laid in the bottom of the pile for several hours.  If we could work out some sort of FIFO system we could likely save more meat.

I would like to thank you guys for your hospitality.  I'm looking forward to next year, already.

Mark Duncan

I agree that we need a FIFO and lots more ice.

The skinning and cleaning area will need some streamlining from next year. Any thoughts on that will be appreciated.

Do we need to arrange skinning racks?

Y'all tell me what is needed to make it better, and I will see what we can get done in the next 12 months to make it happen ;D

That's good point Mark about some of the meat going bad. We need to keep each team's hogs seperate and handle it accordingly... some of the hogs were bad when they got there. I'll be bringing this up to the board on how we need to resolve this issue.

Thanks again for all your help this weekend!

If you could make a portable rail that the hogs rolled down you could cut the backstraps (and since easier to reach the tenderloins too), the cut the hams off at the end and dump the carcass in the trailer. That way you got less tables and the tables avalible are there for meat cleaning and prep. While the wash racks are nice (concrete instead of mud) I'd look to moving it outside to the limestone parking lot with a slight slope to it. or put the meat cleaning elsewhere and set up the rail inside the two wash down areas.

Let's talk about divisions.

If the TDHA Contest was to be divided into different divisions.

Dogs and Knives?

Dogs and guns?

Trapped hogs?

Tell me how to make sure that the hogs entered into various divisions are harvested within the rules.

I keep hearing that the knife hunters, don't want to compete with the gun hunters, and I can understand why. Now is where we need your help. Tell us how to do it Very Happy

How would this work. Would you enter into the contest? How about payouts. Do you apply entry fees to each division, or do you spread it across?

Give me your thoughts, so we can get some things on paper.

Remember, we want this to be a fun productive contest, where the contestants feel they were treated fairly, and the most possible pork is hauled in for Hunter's Harvest.

chris i don't think you could have a trapped hogs category and ever really know for sure if they were trapped during the contest. too easy to stockpile them. if you can think of a way they could prove or disprove that let me know, but i don't think it can be done. just my thoughts...

Chris all in all i think the it was good just a few thing the pictures were never asked for which pretty much made hauling that camera around usless and the second thing and i don't know the man from Adam, but think that having a certified hog buyer hunting in the contest who just so happened to catch the only hog over will just shoot low and say 250 i think the correct weight was 397 gutted is just a bit fishy to me if i remember correctly the hog was clean from any dog marks. Folks don't catch hogs like that often and for sure not with out a dog having to put some teeth one on him some where to shut him down.  Also in the rules it stated all contestants must be in line at 12noon and i believe the last truck pulled in at after that 12:15.  Once again all in all though it was well put together. May be instead of the pictures next year there can be a polygragh like they use in the STAR fishing tournament and split divisons for shot hogs and stuck hogs. 

catchdog,

 a polygraph is in the works. It should eliminate any cheating.

  There is a lot of talk about the big hog, and his position in the hog market. What many people don't know is that they have some excellent hunting grounds that consistently produce huge barr hogs.

The head dude on this site has a similar honey hole (or so I have heard) that also produces huge hogs. They are out there.

I will try to get some pictures of the big dude online that might show him a little better. The pictures I have of him show a ripped ear, and in one I have seen blood behind the ear as well as bite marks in the arm pits.. The hog was huge no doubt, I personally have no suspicions of foul play.

Shhhhh... don't tell anybody! ;)

THat brings the next point. If hogs from a game fence don't count then why should BARR hogs count. There are very few natural barr hogs. I have caught 1 barr hog since I have been hunting... EVER. IF you hunt places that catch hogs, cut them, and release them to be caught again that is the same as getting them out of a game fence.

I bet for every barrow we catch (after cutting them) we missed or will never get 5-8 of the others we cut. I think leaving them out is throwing to small a net on the competition

You know I'm going to jump in here and say something.    Just because he caught a huge hog is no reason to call him a cheater.  3 years ago my partner and I showed up to the Cuero competition with 3 hogs. The first one went 247 dressed which took the big hog jackpot; he was a big red hog.  Our next hog was a 211 pound solid white hog (This caused a big fuss).  Our 3rd hog was a 179 pound red hog that we caught out of the same group as the big hog.  The way we run our dogs we turn the pits loose less then 50 yards out and usually have the hog over and legged and the pit off inside 90 seconds.  This is the way we hunt and this is the way we like to catch hogs so we can take them back to the pens and use them to train.  They don’t do us any good with infected cut up falling off ears.  On the same token our pits don’t have scissor bites (they are all undershot a bit) and don’t type writer bite or shake.  They grab and hold and that’s it.  This minimizes damage a lot.  Here is a prime example this hog was caught with our dogs 5 hours before this picture.  Do his ears look messed up.  And the catch dogs were on him for more then 90 seconds I assure you.  One dog on each ear.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/reburn/hogs/Picture018.jpg)


That year at Cuero we were called cheaters when we weighed in and it almost resulted in one boy getting very badly hurt.  The reason they were calling us cheaters was because of the white hog.  I will not tolerate being called a cheater and I was boiling.  Fighting should never be taken lightly and if you call some one a cheater you better be prepared to say it to their face and back it up.  I have very little patience for anyone being called a cheater with out any kind of proof other then well that hog isn’t all messed up and my dogs can’t do it with out messing him up.

My whole point is that this is BS saying it sounds fishy and he didn’t have dog marks on him ECT.  If you had a problem with it you should have said something to his face and the judges faces there.  Not sitting behind a computer screen days later.  It is just in bad form.  Just out of curiosity which team were you on catchdog7469?


FOR THE RECORD I WAS ON NOT ON THE WINNING TEAM.  I ALSO DO NOT KNOW ANYONE ON THE WINNING TEAM.

4TH

I agree. its not a good deal to accuse people. I have said before I would almost hate to win a contest because every one automatically assumes you cheated.

On the same note, alot of us know what actually goes on at these contests. SOme one always spills the beans. :D

YOu can not cheate a polygraph test...  ;)

i am in full agreemant with reburn about this. although i know you were trying to explain why the contest needed certain rule changes, to call someone's entry out on here- days after the contest has ended is in bad form. unless their is proof, then those allegations are innapropriate to make on a public forum(especially one where the accused is not a member). it would have been much more appropriate to just say there needs to be a polygraph in the next one and left it at that. otherwise the issue should have been taken up at the contest, or in private with the contest coordinators, or with that contestant at the very least. if people have good suggestions on how to make the contest better next year, then by all means tell chris(Circle C) what you think they should change. if anyone wants to tarnish someone else's reputation with blatant accusations and no proof, they had better be doing it in private. again, inflamatory remarks about other people on this site is against our policy here. this applies to Everyone who chooses to post on these boards! from the admins to the mods to the members. 
i should have caught this sooner, but i am not always thr most thorough about reading each and every reply on every post.

Polygraph would stop a lot of the nonsense. If yall was to split the contest between shot hogs and caught hogs than a team would have to enter the contest which pertains to them (or they could enter both) and you would have separate payouts. If a hog showed up at weigh-in with a bullet hole in him them he would only be accepted in the shot hog contest. Meaning doggers who shoot their hogs would be competing against a team that only stalks and shoots. With that being said....a team could not own a dog...and could enter the shot hogs contest...meaning more meat...and more jackpotted money. Mentioned earlier in this post someone stated that some of the hogs that showed up to the weigh in was already spoiled....was those hogs removed from weigh-in?

Brute, then you've never hunted in East Texas. These ol' boys out here have been hunting and cutting hogs for generations... that's the way their daddys and grandaddys lived. They cut EVERY boar they catch. There's places where you'll catch more barrs than boars any time.

OK maybe my statement was poorly worded Guess the way it should have read is "could sound fishy to some" If I would have thought the man Cheated i would have said something there. That is not what i was trying to say. Was just trying to let Chris know there was alot of complaints about a buyer competing it was not about who won what. I was not stating anything about the fact that it was a barr hog as our team caught a barr as well in free range and we don't cut hogs so i can't tell you how it got there it happens. Reburn We placed 4th had alot of fun doing so with good friends and were able to help folks out as well as that was the point of the event. I was not trying to make and aligations towards anyone just trying to pass on information as that is what Chris asked for was feedback. Sorry for any misconseptions.

Reburn,

   I think that the winners of any contest are always suspect. We looked at the big hog at weigh in. He looked legit to us, and I am not about to call someone a cheater unless I know something personally.

Brute,

    My opinion on barr hogs fall in like with Mike. too many barr hogs running around in the woods to be counted out. Especially in east Texas.

Realdogs,

     I think you have it figured out. Just because the way someone hunts does not produce the numbers, some may need to change the way they hunt to win.  I do agree that we need two divisions. Knife and dogs, and shot hogs.

C Miller,
  We did toss some hogs during cleaning. We did not disqualify any hogs on the scale. This is a learning process, and we learn as we go. If a hog came in with ice in the cavity, or it was chilled in a cooler, it was counted. There was some effort on every hog entered to keep it cool when we saw it. Once we got to cleaning we found some bad ones. At that point we had no idea which team it came from. We are working on a system for 2009 to eliminate that.
Some ideas we have had are this.

Get a local processor, or a committee of 3 people to judge condition prior to weigh in. If they call it bad, it is not counted.

Another option, is to have a pile for each team, and process them by the team. If we do this, they payout will not occur until all hogs are skinned.

Still looking for ideas.
If you have some ideas you would like to bring up, let the TDHA know about it. We want this to be a fun productive hunt with integrity.

Ya, it was noticed by many people that there was no way to challenge a hog. The way yall had them stacked right after they were weighed it would be impossible.


We had been considering putting on a tournament and that was the way we were going to do it. Have three judges that walk up and inspect the hogs prior to being weighed. If there was any question they would be tagged like cattle at the auction and thrown on another pile. Then we would question the team and make a decision.

Cattle tags would be a great idea.

I still have tons of that damn glue from when I was putting on team sortings.

What profession would you look for in a judge? Butcher? Processor?

Here's a novel idea. How about having the teams clean their own hogs before coming to weigh in? Have them bring in the skinned and quartered hogs, on ice in an ice chest, weight the quarters and loins, pay out based on total edible meat donated. That would save a bunch of work at the expo and should make sure any hog meat donated is edible. I don't know any hunter who doesn't have ice chests and the skill to skin and quarter their own hogs.

Realdogs,

  Something we have discussed is a skinning competition with some money on the line.

We need to get some skinning racks/ hoists built. I can donate some material, and I can get all the welding supplies donated too. Just need someone that can make the racks/hoists. You don't want to work around something I have welded. ;D

Marty,

 I like your thinking, and not to shoot it down, but most of these teams would have more money tied up in ice chests than they have potential to win in the contest.  We are talking about a team average of 500# of actual meat. I think your average hunter may have a couple of 120qt coolers, but nothing more than that. You guts that fish a lot, tend to have lots of large coolers.

Ya, like I have said before it is not uncommon for a team to bring 20 hogs to a weigh in. I personally would not go for cleaning and icing down 20 hogs, not even for that money.

Plus it takes away from the whole atmosphere of bringing in the hogs.

I am not real sure who to use to make up the three people. Just need three hard nosed hog hunters, not associated with any specific organizations, that are not afraid to say if some thing looks out of the ordinary. Then I would have a larger group come in and look into the "tagged" hogs with more detail, along with a few questions for the team members. IF a polygraph was thrown in there also it would be probably the best you could do.

The polygraph is still the best idea by far. Test every one who will recieve money.

Realdogs,


    We were tossing around the idea of having a timed skinning event.  1 hog for each person in the event
As hogs come in and are weighed, they get grouped based on similar weights ( maybe hogs weighing between 150-160 dressed) go to the skinning event.

Thoughts?

I hear ya Chris. I was figuring that if each team has 3 members that should be at least six ice chests. I can put at least two good sized hogs in a 120quart ice chest. That's four hogs a man. And, twelve hogs a team, if there's only 3 team members. Did ya'll have some teams with more hogs than that?

Shucks, I don't hunt as much as some. But, I got a 150quart, 128quart, several 48's and a 50. And, if ya'll are having a polygraph for the winners there shouldn't be a problem with cheating. That way folks who have to travel several hours to weight in hogs wouldn't be bringing ya'll some nasty inedible hogs. This way all meat would be in edible condition. Not to mention saving ya'll the hassle of skinning and skinning wracks. Plus, the hassle of getting rid of hog carcuses. It sure would save ya'll a bunch of problems.

We had teams with up to 16 hogs per team.

It appears that you can count on about 1/2 of all teams that enter to actually weigh in.

We will try to change that for 2009. Trying to get prizes for all teams that turn in meat, regardless of weight or ranking.
This year, if you hauled in meat, you got entered into a drawing for a TriTronics Trashbreaker, or a Wildlife Material Tracking Collar.  2009, we would like to have enough prizes that we can have one allocated for each and every team that weighs in.

When we get the two divisions setup, and the polygraph, get ready, cuz there will be a lot more hogs hauled in.
We only think ~160 hogs and 20k is a lot.

Cool deal man.  ;D The more hogs the better!! ;D

If we are just taking backstaps and hams, isnt hanging a hog more work than necessary?  

Normally, when you completely skin a hog hanging from the back legs, the hams are the last things you remove.  Thus, I would think this to be more of a problem.  I think you could have the backstraps out in the time it took you to hang a hog.  This was the method used the past two years cause that is the best we had, if there is a better method I would love to implement it.

Also remember that the expo comitte asked that all cleaning be done in the washing station so that blood and water did not taint the ground.  We did a fairly good job of keeping everything on the tarps but still spilled a little.

RJB

Ron,

   You are absolutely right about the backstraps and hams, and that being the fastest way to get them done.  What has been brought up is the potential for a skinning contest, that would in turn let some of the hogs produce ribs, etc. Give the spectators something more to look at.

One thing I enjoy doing, is learning how others skin a hog. There seems to be a hundred different ways to "skin a hog", and it might make for a good informative display, while the people doing the work have a chance to take home some money.

Not saying all hogs need doing this way, just pull out some of the hogs for it, and clean the rest the same way as the past two years.

Scott, sounds like you skin hogs like I do. I hang my head up and skin. It definately helps using the weight to help you. Plus, I'll skin one side at a time. On boars the shield helps peal everything down. I take the front shoulders off first after skinning. Then the backstraps. Then the hind quarters, through the hip joint. Ribs and trimmings are last.

When I skin I take off the hooves at the joint above them. The quarters all come off with just my knife. The only time I might use a saw is on some big ribs. But, most ribs will come off fairly easy with a knife and a bit of work. Sometimes a small hand axe works good on the ribs.

Anyhow, a skinning contest might be good. It sure would be interesting to see how other folks do it.

I skin head up too.

Usually I just make a noose around the neck, and start to skinning.

Me too. I do a few things in order though. Once the hog is hung, I'll run my knife up the insides of each leg, run a circle around each joint above the hooves, take the hooves off, run a circle around the top of the neck, run a line down the front, run a line down the back, go to skinning. Sometimes I'll leave the bottom hooves until I get a little farther into it. But I take the top ones off early to avoid dirt getting on the meat. I'm a freak about trying to keep the meat clean.

I vote for a skinning contest! It should be real fun!

We skin on the ground. IF we want a back strap and quaters we split the hog along the back and work down. Leave the guts in the carcas.

I got pics some where of guys packing quarters out on their shoulders. :D

That's what I was saying in my post on the first page, make an assembly line about 7-8 foot tall and then have a winch on one end to lift the hog up, then hang it by 1 or both leg and work them down the line. you can find the rolling hooks pretty easy and all that is needed after that is just flat bar for your rail. If you got REAL fancy you could have it where the hog can be rolled over the trailer then cut the ribcage front par of the body off as the last step and then all that is on the hook is the last ham.

 I willing to donate my time and welding/fab skills.

Havent skinned out as many hogs as deer, but I know what you are saying.  Every deer I do I hang by the head and skin down if I am not trying to cape it.  But this requires you to skin the whole thing to get to one part.

But......the other idea I had was to cut the straps out and have folks with a saws-all cutting the hog at the hips.  This would allow us to get the bulk of the hog out of the way and would allow more people to work at one table. 

I am all for a skinning contest!  I think that would be a neat contest.

The main reason not to skin the whole hog for the rest of the hogs is to save time and the fact that de-boning of the neck and front legs takes alot longer than the rest of the hog.

Regardless of how we decide to do things next year........let me be the first to thank everyone for there input.  Everyone seems to have an opinion on how TDHA should do things, but alot of people do not speak up.  It is nice to finally get some feedback on these issues.  Please remember though, TDHA will never please everyone with the rules and set up of this contest.....we just hope to please the masses and keep this contest growing.  There is no reason the hog expo and hunting contest couldnt be a HUGE event in years to come.  Thanks for all of the support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

RJB

I think a skining contest would be great. I skin head down just the way I have always done it. there is really no wrong way just personal preferance.  I would be willing to donate my welding/fab skills and machine to build racks.

Instigator and Catchdog,

   Thank you for offering up your time and services
I guess the next thing that needs to be decided is how you want to make them, and what materials are needed. If it can be put to use I have plenty of 1-1/2 OD Sc 40 pipe, and plenty of 2-3/8 OD drill stem and Sc 40 pipe. When we get to the point that y'all are ready to weld, I will get Praxair to provide the welding supplies, I will just need to know what rods or wire are needed.

Do y'all have anything in mind?


Jay, I have heard that you come up with stuff in your dreams, so maybe you can get some sleep then get back with us! ;D

Realdogs,

    I figured you would have something to say about QA/QC maybe a fitter, fitters helper, some safety dudes. etc.  Any OSHA requirements that you can help with too ;D

Y'all just let me know what rods / wire you need. I will do what I can to make it worth your while.  :o

If you want to use pipe we can build an A frame with three sets of legs something like a swing set and mount caster wheels on the bottons so thst it can be moved with hogs hanging  proballty hang 4 hogs from eack one mount pulleys up top two in each section and mount a boat winch to the A fram legs as far as rods 1/8 5P+ works for me.

just let me know. I build that kind of stuff all the time.

Jay,

   I just got 150# of rod donated. Just tell me what you need. I mentioned 1/8 6011 5P+  They said that is fine, I can pick it up Friday. If you would prefer another type of rod, or wire let me know. If you need more, let me know too.

Circle C

10-4 on that Scott. Skin comes off first, then everything else. Sounds like you and I do it the same. It'd be fun to have a skinning contest to see how fast each technique is.

Man, ya'll got it going pretty fast! Great job guy's! ;D

Depending on where yall want to put it together I would be happy to lend some time. I am a darn good welders' helper (been doing it all my life). I am skilled in the tape measure, chop saw/ torch/ ban saw, and the "don't move while I tack this". ;D Once there is a design, I (maybe Chris) can be cutting and fitting and others (Catchdog since he is a welder) can be tacking and welding... assembly line style.



Going with the A-frame theory...
You could weld 2 7/8s stubs coming off your main beam, which could also be 2 7/8s (for easy saddling and it probably wouldn't hurt if you are going to hang 6 hogs at a time) with at what ever angle you want and then cut 2 3/8s legs to slide up in the stubs with a set screw (bolt) on the stub to lock in the leg. YOu could do 8 legs, 6 with winches. THat would let you hang 6 hogs and each hog would have about 5' of working space if you used a 30' joint.
YOu could also break down the main beam into more managable pieces by doing the same thing. Just cut the main beam where need be, weld a shot 2 3/8 piece into one end, drill holes in the other and it will slide to the inside and you can pin it or use set screw (bolt),,, like a tent.
It could be designed to break down and go on a flat bed trailer. Your longest pieces will be the legs and they won't go over 16'.
Have pulleys on the winch cables with clasps that latch to eyes welded on the main beam. WHen you break it down the cable and clasp will go witht he leg.

We do alot of deer blinds, feeders, and tripods like that for people so that you can move them around.

The thing about the A-frame idea is that's going to take up ALOT of room in the washracks. If you could rig something that could bolt or clamp to the exsisting cinder block wall (one on the arena side) It would free up space. Another thing about a rail is you could have 10+ hogs being worked down the line instead of just six. The A-frame would be great for the skinning contest though.

i don't want to interrupt what sounds like some great solutions to solve the problems of skinning and cleaning the hogs, I did want to put one thing out there though; If you are planning on having a skinning contest, you may want to think about covering some holes in that. Here's what I mean, you get a bunch of guys together trying to one up each other skinning hogs(especially if this lasts a while) and someone gets over-anxious and silly with a knife. they slice themselves pretty good and have to take a trip to the emergency room. Or worse yet, they get an infection of whatever sort from being cut with a hog bloody knife(rare but it can happen folks). I would hate to see the contest have an incident like that, or even worse be open to some kind of legal action(for putting the skinning contest on, or because it happened on their premises). I guess what I'm saying is if you're going to have guys going a mile a minute skinning hogs, you might want to consider waivers to be signed, safety gloves, and properly sharpened knives at all times(dull knives can cause you to apply more pressure, resulting in a slip of the hand). Like I said, good idea but you better cover the holes in it. just a thought...
ya'll can go back to the building stuff now, heck i feel like i'm learning a little something.  ;)

Sean,

   Good points.

Agreed, very good points and should probably be addressed if a skinning contest is going to be had. For that matter it may be a good idea even for volunteers.

what about some type of leader board to see where you stand when you weight in ?

that's a pretty cool idea, i think people would like that. and welcome to the boards hoggie!

That is a good idea. It would take away from some confusion also. The more stuff that is out for every one to see the better.

 ;) Ya'll are coming up with all kind sof great stuff. Keep it up.

Welcome to the boards Cody! ;D

Free A&M salsa and chips for everyone!  :-*

Best idea I have heard so far ;D ;D

(((my sister giving salsa away for free)))Oooo :D :D :D :D lol j/k

Ya'll are making me hungry. WHERE's THE CHIPS!! ;D ;D

FREE A&M SALSA!!!!!!


Let me tell you......I ate 2 quarts of that stuff before Wednesday......I NEED MORE!!!!!

i'll have to let you work out some overnight shipping deal with Angel cody,lol. we had a great time at the Expo, and got to meet a lot of great people; yourself included. and welcome to the boards!  ;D

Thanks ya'll. Glad to be on board. ;D

I want in the hog skinning contest...I will spank a few like I did KP on the wall and getting free hot sauce to boot,,MAN oh Man ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tim I saw your last climb of this year..................It was fast..................... :oOn the way down.  :o lol sorry buddy. I had 2.

I loved the competeion..KP is my buddy and very close friend..just trying to razz him as he is not here and at fish camp ;) ;)

Tim, didn't you do it bare foot too?! ;D Well, with just socks on.  ;D

Hey tim it was nice to meet you at the expo.