EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

This was from a person that wants to join TDHA but want to know about the National Forrest.  Please help if know facts.

I WANT TO BECOME A MEMBER AND I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY THING ON ANY BODY WEB SITE ABOUT THEM STOPPING THE DOG SEASON ON HOGS IN THE SAM HOUSTON NATIONAL FOREST

Got another e-mail today from a dog hunter but not a member of TDHA.
Trying to let you guys know there is strenght in numbers, that why all dog hunters should be a member so we can show strenght.

Now we need to be informed as too what's going on.

Please post up information so others can look at what's happening.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/recreation/hunting.shtml
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/wma/find_a_wma/list/?id=30&activity=hunting
http://www.stateparks.com/sam_houston.html

Nothing about dogs of any kind, it is in Texas so those laws concerning dogs in Texas would apply, which means no deer dogs. Beyond that you would have to contact one of the people listed on those sites.

It looks like they did away with the dog season in the forest. Very sad, i've hunted it every year for the last nine years and we've had many, many group hunts out there which generated a lot of revenue for the forest service in APH permit sales.

Maybe TDHA can file a formal complaint with the USFS and TP&WD on behalf of dog hunters concerning this rule change?

I can guarantee them this, dog hunters are responsible for way more hogs taken out of there than gun and bowhunters could even think about taking.

Please tell me this is a bad joke??  I hate to think about what the hog numbers will be like out there after they let no hunters in the forest.  I just can't imagine how pissed off people will be once the word gets around.  It makes me sad to think we won't be able to hunt out there.  I have only hunted out there for three years but I have some good memories from there.  I was looking forward to hunting this year.  Man that sux!!!
Matt

They did open the season to year round hunting for hogs... just no dogs allowed...period.

I'll see if I can get the link... it's on the map page of Sam Houston WMA in the box that lists the seasons for different game.

I wonder what they will do if they catch you coon hunting with cur dogs????

Here's the link... scroll down to the second page.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/public/lands/table_contents/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0112a_905.pdf

Man I just can't understand that, who do you call or mail letters to?  I would sure like to vent a little about this.  I really like how it says all legal means and then says no dogs allowed.  I guess the federal game warden knew what was coming last year when he was dropping clues....

Man that is a sour deal....the way our world is becoming... what more should we expect? sad times ahead,enjoy it all while we still can.

Guys, need some help here, I see where it satates no dogs allowed, but who and where is making there rules?
Help me kind a link to get in touch with some one that has the power to make rules.

Thanks for your help and all the ones that has contacted me so far are not members of TDHA but want me to get something done, we need all dog hunters support, strenght in numbers.

Mr.Mason, i'm going to call my contact with the forest service today and see if he can point us in the right direction.

Everyone needs to join TDHA now, this hits close to home to a lot of us and is a huge blow to our dog hunting rights.

I hunted the sam houston national forrest for along time around evergreen and coldspring area i cant believe they are no longer letting people run dogs thats crazy  :-\ let me no where 2 send a letter i will help all i can

    I read this for the first time last night, and was too shocked to respond.  My initial thoughts go along with what others have already stated.

    This is where the TDHA needs to show that they can make a difference for hunters. Now, I am not talking about the handful of BOD doing all the legwork. I am talking about the TDHA organizing a movement to get this policy changed in future seasons. TDHA can get a game plan, and let its members know what is needed on their part to help in the movement. This is the chance to really make a difference.  I will be making phone calls on my own, but I only represent myself.  When TDHA makes a phone call, that one call represents the voice of hundreds of members.
   
     Phone calls, letters, and common sense prevailed in West Columbia, I think we can make a difference too, we just need to get organized with it.

Here are some resources that we might can use to help.

RPOA - Responsible Pet Owners Alliance - has a pretty strong force when it comes to sending emails and making phone calls. We stand with them, and I expect they will stand with us.

US Sportsman's Alliance - same as above
TOPS- Texas Outdoor Partners - same as above

Various breed registries - they have lists of contacts that are using their dogs on hogs, and this effects them directly. Have them send out an email to all members letting them know of the situation.
Lacy dogs
NALC
BMC registries
APBT

We need to have an properly worded (proper grammar and spelling) letter/ email that can be sent to the decision makers once we know who they are. As can be seen by my posts, I am not the one to compose the letter, but I will help in any way I can. I think the letter needs to address the effectiveness of dogs in the removal of feral hogs,  might even address the fact that the rifle hunters cannot hunt hogs at night and that they will quickly become nocturnal, yet continue to reproduce, etc.


What are y'alls thoughts on how to correct this?
   

Chris I agree with everything you have there except for the fact that you cannot hunt hogs at night in the forrest with dogs, even when hunting with dogs was legal.  I still feel like something was taken from me, how do lose such a great resource?  Who makes the rules on this?  If you look at what they did on their way to making deer dogs illegal it looks very familiar to what is happening now!!!  Hunting hogs with dogs is legal but they don't allow it, why???  Just some of the things that are going through my mind....
Matt

Matt,

     I wasn't real clear in getting across what I was thinking in regards to the hogs going nocturnal.  I realize the dog hunters are/were only allowed to hunt them in daylight too. However, with dogs, we have the advantage of trailing them by scent to their bedding areas. Joe gun hunter does not have that advantage, he almost has to come across them while they are traveling, whereas in daylight, our dogs can find them bedded. I think that is the are that dog hunting has a distinct advantage over any other method, when there are restricted hours.

I would agree 100% Chris, that is a good point...
MG

No point in calling the SHNF headquarters in New Waverly. I called them about an hour ago after getting off the phone with WormyDogKennels and was told that she didnt know why the rules were changed or who changed them. Maybe I was talking to the wrong person but this lady seemed clueless.
I dont hunt there anymore but this makes me sick. Its unfair completely and Im ready to do what I can to get dog hunters their rights back to hunt there!!!

Just let me know when and where and ill be there ;)

Just ran the phone gauntlet with TPWD & SHNF and still got nowhere!

I was told by an official at TPWD in Austin that a Supervisor at the SHNF would be the only person to disclose why dogs are being prohibited in the National Forest this year for hog hunting.
My last connection was to Capt. Chris Crain at the SHNF New Weaverly headquarters. Of coarse he didnt answer the phone so I left him a message in regards to my call and asked him to give me a call at his earliest convenience.
I will let you know when he calls me. In the mean time his direct office # 936-639-8530.
His executive assistant Vicky will be happy to talk to you also but she will only refer you to Capt. Crain. Her # is 936-639-8530

I will be the point man for the TDHA on this issue. I am working the phones trying to get a live person who knows something about this issue, everyone needs to keep me informed about who you are talking to and all info that you may get on this issue.


I will update with new info, and I will find the person whose job it is to take the heat for this and we will have a plan for a united front to address this problem.

Paul Teegardin
806 455 1297
pwt_3@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Paul T

TDHA, join today.....We need some help from those of you that are tired of losing your freedom one little piece at a time.......

Paul,

    Thank you for taking the lead on this issue. Anything you need me to do, just say the word.  Here is my contact info in case you might need it for anything.

ccoughran@gmail.com
832-689-2786

Thanks Chris, will do...

If someone else writes the letter, gets all the information and points and such in there, I will edit and rewrite to make sure it sounds professional. I just really have no background on this and wouldn't know where to start, and we definitely need someone with the knowledge and passion to put it down on paper, but I do know how to make things sound right, so just let me know if you need help.

And when there is a game plan, the NLDA will do what we can to help. I don't think we have any hog hunters that regularly go to Sam Houston, but we do have dog hunters worried about their rights. Steve and I were even thinking about taking Sadie this year to shoot a squirrel or two for her. Now that sounds like a mess waiting to happen. She is, after all, a hog dog, and she'd ditch a squirrel in two seconds if she smelled a nice boar around.

Paul, thank you and everyone else getting involved. I left two messages for Mr. Dano today with no return call... seems like everyone is getting ignored?

Mike,
I have been told to go to US forrest services
go to TPWA
go to USDA
and every where I go I get no answer but we're trying and will pin it down soon I hope.

Thanks for every ones help and Paul will be heading it up for TDHA when we find out where, who, and why.

The first step has been made.... their phones ringing all day. ;)

I received 2 call from Capt. Crain this morning. My phone call message was the first that he had heard of dogs being prohibited in Sam.
I was driving and couldn't write anything down but he told me pretty much what Mr. Mason says here.
He said our best bet would be to contact the main biologist whoever that may be to find out exactly why they decided to prohibit the dogs this year. They are the ones that make the recommendations for the state but the TPWA makes the rules. Rules that his office hasn't even been supplied with yet according to the Captain.
The Capt. was a real nice and helpful guy but not the person to get any answers from.
 
Probably best not to pester him anyway since he is on the enforcement side of this rule.

1. Who are the decision makers who closed the dog season in the forest?

 I consulted with my staff and USFS personnel but the field decision was utimately mine.  I then forwarded my hunt recommendations up the chain.



2.What were the reasons given by all involved? 

The reason was that which I described above...that dogs potentially running deer was not a good thing for the local deer population.


3.Were there any public meetings or public input on this issue?

No.  There are 50+ WMAs across TX.  I have worked or had responsibilities on 12 of them and have never held public meetings for making harvest recommendations.  Additionally, I am not familiar with any such meetings on WMAs across the State.  As far as I know all WMAs (except White Oak Creek WMA in northeast TX) prohibit hog dog hunting.
 
4.How many dog hunters hunted hog in the SHNF last year?

James Scott, US Forest Service Law Enforcement Officer, told me he talked to a total of 3-4 groups of hog dog hunters totaling about 30 individual people.  I can only assume that he didn't speak with every person that hunted hogs with dogs last year though. 


5.Can you give me some information on "special Permits" that have be given to hog trappers at SHNF.

 I believe the US Forest Service does provide trapping agreements through an application process, but this is not part of our public hunting program.  I recommend contacting the Sam Houston office for more information on this activity.

I appreciate the opportunity to comment on this matter and hope that I've provided the information you needed.  We always struggle with balancing wildlife management decisions, and especially harvest recommendations, with the desires of our constituents.  I know that this decision has gotten some folks upset, but extending hog hunting year-round on the Sam Houston NF WMA, and several others in east TX, has been received well by others.  Our goal is optimize hunting opportunity while enhancing native wildlife populations, and that is why the decision was made to prohibit hog dog hunting on this WMA.

Thank you.

Bill Adams

TPWD

To understand this correctly...Mr Adams made the decision to discontinue hog dogging on SHNF?

And one of the reason was dogs running deer?

That is correct, Mr Adams made the desision, based on reports of hog dogs runing deer during the deer season.......

and he was sure that hog dogs were running deer during the spring hunt on the SHNF.

That is crap. I do not know who hunts in there for certain but I dont understand how they can make an impacting decision based on speculation.

Do you think anything needs to be done from here or do you plan to pursue this any further?

I would like to send an email to Mr Adams. At worst case...asking for special permits.

I will probably never hunt the SHNF but hate to see it closed to dog hunters.

We will continue to work on this issue.

I would encourage you to contact Mr Adams.

I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE SAYING DOGS RUNNING DEER IN DEER SEASON THE HOG SEASON WAS JAN 14 TO MARCH 15  TILL 2 YEARS AGO AND THEY CHANGD IT TO FEB 1 TO MARCH 15 THEY CUT IT SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING THEN IF DOGS ARE RUNNING DEER IN DEER SEASON THEY NEED TO STOP THAT & I AM NOT VERY GOOD ON THIS COMPUTER PUT I AM GOING TO SEND HIM SOME E MAILS

First of all, there are no dogs allowed during deer season... period. Not even blood trailing dogs in most East Texas counties. ???

Second, opening the season year round to gun and bow hunters is fine... but why take away from the dog hunters? Gun and bow hunting was always allowed even during the dog season... no one looses but us. >:D

WELL SAID MIKE

Theres an article titled Sam Houston Bans Hog with Dogs in the November 2009 issue of Texas Fish & Game magazine.  It may be something to take a look into, but it dosent really add any new information. I already sent a scanned copy to Paul.

Good find Richard, I read the article just now and the one thing I found funny was that the captain Chris Cain of NFS said they had no idea how many people took advantage of the hog-dog season.  Makes you wonder about all this "research" that took place during the years they allowed hog dogging....the whole thing really makes me mad...
Matt

A Little work for y'all. I need to know how many and who hunted the Forrest last year and how many hogs they killed. Put your heads together and call anyone that will not post up here. We talked about this at length at the TDHA meeting and I have a plan. Its not going to happen over night. And I am going to need some help, but the hunter info is first on the list.

My goal is to return Hog Dogs to SHNF as well as other State land across the state. With live hog prices so low, trapping is minimal at best. This is causing hog numbers and damage to explode is my part of the state.

My goal is for "Professional actingl" dog hunters, hunting under strict guidelines that we will propose will provide feral hog deprivation control during carefully selected times of the year and when necessary to hit problem areas when needed.

This will not happen over night.

I hunted it last year for two days with several members from the board. I think their was about 13 hogs caught in all. I also purchased 2 Annual Public Hunting (APH) Permits at $48 a piece for the wife and I for the sole purpose of hunting hogs with dogs. I am sure there are several other members who also purchased those permits for the sole purpose of hog hunting with dogs(see where I'm trying to go with this).

The total cost of permits purchased may be something we want to keep record of also. At $48 a pop, it dosen't take alot to add up to an impressive number.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/DEERHUNTER280/2-07-09I.jpg)

Each person in this photo payed $48.00 for the sole purpose of hunting hogs with dogs, just like Richard said.

I think our group hunt last year there 13 hogs caught... we had around 40 people total at the camp. That's 40 people buying the APH permit for a 3 day hunt/get together.

I've hunted it the past 10 years and would average 20 to 40 hogs per season... with the exception of the last two in which I didn't hunt it as much.

About $1300 standing there.....

And, that is just for our group. I know there were other guy's hunting the forest too. Hunting the forest became a tradition me and my boys looked forward to each year.......The camping and camaraderie and the dogs were something we all loved.

Add 7

Chance ward -Crystal Ward- Rowdy Ward -Tristen Ward-  30 plus hogs

Murry Chreene -- Murry Chreene III   40 plus hogs

Dustin Hueghs  20 plus hogs

Jermey Beal Not last year but years past   40 plus hogs

Kirk Rodgers    40 plus hogs
These are just a few that I know would not mind me useing there names...Most of these guys take off 2 weeks vacation just to hunt the forest...They buy there perments and all that orange just to hog hunt....
Thanks Paul For the hard work!! I will try to get more to let me use there names I know about 50 that hunt the forest...

This is the stuff I need. Keep it coming.

Thanks.
Paul T

I have not hunted it for several years. But when we did it was on horseback. It was like stepping back in time. I have stopped hog hunting for now and for now only. But I always counted on it being there when I started back. Being out of it for years , lost contacts and limited time to re-establish contacts/permission, The forest was where I planned to start back. Oh did I mention not having a lot of extra money for leases and travel. I live about 45 min from the western part of the forest. I have joined the TDHA. I know James Scott through my narcotics dog work. I will talk to him and see what I can find out.

Thanks Bob, let me know what you find out.

I have a whole bunch more name that guys told me to post up for them and other guys are calling and asking whats going on and where they need to sign!!I  have the list in the truck I will get it and post there name tomorrow  There is over 20 easy!!

Here are some more names James D.Martin - Joe Ann Martin - James M. Martin - Bart Billingsley - Ashley Billingsley - Landen Billingsley - Clifton Wells - Roy Ott - Chris Msmullen - Bubba Blackford - Christion Doggett  These are just A few  40 plus hogs There are a lot more around here that does not have a computer

Joey Rollins 20 plus hogs
Doug Whitmire  20 plus hogs
David Cochcran 20 plus hogs
Jody Stone 20 plus hogs
Bruce Hightower 5 plus hog
Kevin Bonds 20 plus hogs
Jason Bonds 20 plus hogs
Travis Shubert 40 plus hogs
Carlos Yates 30 plus hogs
Derek Yates 20 plus hogs
Randy Chreene 40 plus hogs
Some of these guys Bought permits and did not read the hand book thinking things were not going to change! They want to know if they can have there money back they said that there was no other reason for them to go to the forest other than hogs with dogs!!
But got more names coming!! These are some that said it was ok for me to post!! Know alot of my numbers on hogs have been from the past couple of years not just last year!!

Tell them to call and talk to Mr Adams......

I HAVE E MAILED HIM NO RESPONSE I DO NOT HAVE A PHONE NUMBER

Hey Captain, What did you say in your e-mail? I am trying to get some info together and get in touch with him also.

                               Bob

I do not have a phone numper

I talked with a guy today from the USFS in Ratcliff.  He told me that all WMA's across the state were off limits to hog dogs.  I was planning on hunting some public land this coming year, but guess what!!!  Something needs to be done!

It is all very confusing. After my conversation with James Scott, I thought, Oh he said only WMA, He said all the other national forest you could run dogs. I tryed to look at an Angelina N F map on line. It seems that most of that forest is WMA's. Then there is the Upland Island Wilderness Area? Now what is a Wilderness area and what are all the rules for it?  And are all these different rules for all these different type areas printed on the USSFS maps? Or are we suppose to figure them out the hard way?

It will be paper company land next to

Does anyone else notice a pattern of control here by the goverment? I just notice here but there starting to take away peoples choices little by little. There starting to push Hybird cars and make any who drives a truck or suv feel like a crimal. You can't own a pitbull because there animals. Look at all the cities in America there banned. Some place are starting to stop hog catching. Their forcing medicare down our throats. Sorry if I sound angry but enough's enough.

I know you're busy Paul but has anything developed further since the last update??  I really think we need to start some sort of a petition for this.  May not help a whole lot but getting a list of names and contact info to the head over there couldn't hurt anything, imo.

White Oak WMA allows hog hunting with dogs for about 20 days

Well is this a dead in road!! Ain't heard nothing on this in a long time was wondering if it got droped or what???  I paid for my Texas dog hunter member ship and just added three members to it!!And working on getting more added!! I would hope they have not dropped this issue because it is a major one in are area!!

cward, we will be working on this issue after the contest. Would you like to help?

call me at 806 455 1297

Yes sir will do what I can!! Will get with you after the competion and see what I can do!! Thanks

cward, I think I live fairly close to you and want to be involved also. I use to hunt the forest.
The argument they are using is related to the status of the majority of the SHNF. I think it is classed as a WMA. It all kind of confuses me. A Federal forest lawman told me this. He said you can run hog dogs on the other NF's and the caddo national grass lands but not on WMA. Yet the White Oak unit still has it this year.
And what is the difference in a "wilderness area" and a "Wildlife management area"?
Another question, and one that really worries me, is why can you hunt fur bearing animals with dogs in the Sam Houston National forest, but not hogs?  All of the fur bearers are indigenous. Hogs are not and are over populating through out the state. From what I understand most biologists hate them. With these factors in mind, I worry that wild life management is not the reason for this decision. So what is? One of the steps to ban it all altogether?  The motive being more along the linesof the  animal rights garbage? I don't know?
I also don't understand how THE NATIONAL FOREST, held, and managed with our federal tax dollars, can also be micromanaged by the state, as TEXAS PUBLIC HUNTING LAND? Just more of our freedoms being taken away from us. I am sure many folks here that grew up close to any of the national forests here in Texas can remember always being able to hunt on it. With the game laws if the state applying.
"Ya, you can hunt that. Its government land" What now it well ya, its government land, but you have to pay the state some more money, and they have a bazzillion rules in addition to the state game laws. The National Forest? How un-american!
Sorry for the rant, but I think we need to speak up. In an organized, studied and intelligent way.

If you are in Texas then google "who represents me" Put your address in, then you will have the list of who to contact. Just remember to take state issues to your state representative and federal to federal. Make sure you do not come accross as a whacko. If you do you will be put on a list and just ignored. Mailing letters is the best way to contact your represetatives. That way you can make sure you are polite and come accross as a reasonable person. Get someone else to read the letter before you mail it so you make a good impression. Personal letters get more attention than form letters. Make sure you are in the district first. When in doubt call the office and ask. If you are out of district your letter will get thrown away unless it is an Eagle Scout letter. Good Luck!

Bump. Hey i don't even know how we would begin to tackle this, but the new regulations come out at the end of Aug. So I feel we should be doing something!

any news on this issue?  i dont hunt hogs and am still able to hunt yotes in the forrest but i feel like stopping hog dogs is just the begining.  i wish yall would kill all the hogs out because it is full of them. been having a hard time keeping my young dogs off of them.  why couldnt the tdha sit down with the biologist and come up with a set of rules that are good for everyone even if it means no dogs duriing deer season, because we all know that what it boils down to the only thing they want is deer and happy deer hunters. but you ought to be able to hunt anytime outside of deer season. im willing to compramize are they?
oh youd be suprised how many coon hunters use the forest and i think they better get on board and help if they want to continue hunting.