EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

How strict are you guys on your dogs when it comes to them not being able to pass the grade.  I mean I use to be a ruthless culler when I was breeding performance dogs sometimes I think to hard but I knew dog men that were much much more strict than myself .  These are the dog men that taught me and that I cut my teeth on so its hard not to be hard .  When I was breeding family dogs I would even go by the colors of my family of dogs down to the color of their toe nails if it didn't match what the family said it would be threw the years of breeding I would cull it, maybe not cull it but send it to some one that could use the dog but never would I breed to one like that.  One thing I can say tho  it paid off in the long run.  As I get older now and in a different kind of dog game I find myself giving dogs second and third chances .  Long ago if a dog blinked wrong it was gone no questions asked.  In my 50's now I have learned to be more patience with dogs I think might can make the grade .  I now find myself matching the maturity of the dog with the grade of his are her performance grade and I look at it all from the build to the wind to the stamina to the complete style of the dog.  I believe in breeding dogs that do what their family heritage says they can do are what their family is known for and if I breed a family of dogs that do not throw high percentages of these types of dogs I will number 2 can the family because it is to diverse and throw to many traits from every which way and that can only mean that someone is not bred the way they say it is are the family cannot take any kind of heavy line to inbreeding. It goes on and on but I would like to hear from some of you dog men and how you are and the judgments you make . 

This is for the young and old breeders that might not know and to realize how strict the pioneers of dog breeding game were .  Don't you think for one min because you are kidding yourself that this did not happen from old time breeders of Hounds to Curs to Bulldogs are to what ever from breeders of old time that had performance dogs .  This is how you got the dogs you got today in some of these great great families of dogs .

I will tell you how strict some of these old time dog men from the 50's 60's and ever 70's were.  I know a man that was a great great great dog man who had thousands and thousands of dollars invested in his yard and family dogs he was breeding.

When one of the anchors of this line dogs lost in his competition this man when home which he lived out in the Arizona desert and he culled every one of those dogs that even come close to having this dog are his family in his in their bloodline.

He was so strict and hard and pissed off that he buried everyone of those dogs in a separate grave with each one of their tails sticking a foot out of the ground!

It takes a lot miles and a lot swine to make a dog... some people don't get it and have no patience.

You are so right Mike so so right .  It takes a lot of time patiences and just a lot of miles and tracks to make a good one and that is one that is bred right.  I think a lot do not realize this .

BINGO!

Also understand and thank those men.

When I first started hunting I culled dogs quiet regularly because they was not what I wanted. But I kind of cut my self short I would run out of young dogs to hunt and to me if I can't take a young dog to try to get goin it's not much point in goin. So now I give them a fair chance until I have something else ready to start so I won't run out of young dogs to hunt. I started hunting with a old man that's about 66 now and I still hunt with him a good bit and he's known to cull some good dogs over the years for different reasons. But he did tell me it takes a different dog today to bay a hog than a dog when he first started hunting. When he first started hunting it was all big open swamps hogs didn't run 10 miles now it's nothing but clear cuts and pine thickets over here and hogs love to run. And if I raise a dog to a year old I don't mind giving it a few more months of my time and feed to see what it might do. A lot of people I think mess up by not fooling with the dog until it's time to hunt and they are disappointed when it don't bay 29 hogs the first time out of the kennel.

If i had to put food on the table that would dictate how much  time to give a dog.  U tend to lose patience quickly when ur hungry!

I'm a strong advocate of culling hard but having said that a guy needs to be knowledgeable enough to know what might have caused a young dog to fail in some of the situations we as handlers may have put them it.   I'm no pro but when a dog makes a mistake I try to evaluate the entire situation for answers before I take extreme action.

Nice man nice !  Great statement .

It's lot of people that don't know the difference in a hog dog and a cull. I've been hunting with a few people if I had to hunt with their dogs id take up golf or something.

Lmao !

I say Amen to that...we have to analyze the situation and make a sound decision based on the facts...I believe in culling hard but we must be logical about it...lots of times it is not the dog but the handler's lack brain power or experience...

some cull too hard and some not hard enough...

when starting out and creating a new line we must evaluate each individual dog and sometimes make exceptions but as we move forward there shouldn't be any excuses as to why we are breeding a dog that is not a good dog...and just about every time we cross breed or outcross we will lose some good qualities if we don't take the time and care to slowly bring those traits we hope to improve on...but if you don't care to develop a strain but only get a few good dogs then it is ok to do it that way...but doing it that way to often when trying to develop a line of dogs and we will be spinning our wheels...

 I too have learned to be more patient with age. Probably a good rule of thumb is to know the family of dogs you are hunting so at least you have a idea on what to expect. A young dog will make mistakes, even the old dogs make mistakes. As long as the young dog makes consistent improvement each time out, he is making progress.
  A few things to remember:
1. One man's cull is another man's treasure.
2 Never cull a dog unless you have something better to replace him with.
3.There are hunters who just do not give a dog enough exposure to bring out the best in a dog.
4.Always, try to start with dogs out of proven producers.
JMO

When deciding on culling a dog, I try to look at the exposure I have given him.  The question I ask myself is, have I given him enough correct exposure to show if he has the ability to make a hog dog?   I believe a good dog can develop on his own, or when hunting with other good dogs, it is up to the handler not to interfere with the dogs ability.  In other words stay out of the way & let them hunt!   


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Cajun I agree with that I have seen dogs not really turn it up till 3 or 4 most fellas would have culled them as it turns out one of them is as good of a dog as I have seen. I go with my gut on these things my pe paw ran dogs for close to 60 yrs and told me just when you think you know something it will slap your face. Never to big to set back and watch and learn cuz these dogs change just like we do with time and knowlge

lol know what ya mean

MAKING THE GRADE...in my opinion we have to make the grade before we can produce dogs that consistently make the grade...

I was pretty hard nosed about culling and breeding...took months and months on deciding who to breed and sometimes it was a minor detail as to why I never bred a certain dog...breeding is half of it and selecting the right pups is the other half...the right selection will give you the best hunting dogs possible from within the line...and then selecting the right dogs to breed...I am one who believes that we can take a line of dogs and breed up and not just maintain...if one breeds sideways or down then the selection process is not at peak performance...

when can we call a bloodline our own???my way of thinking we should try our best to improve every generation and try our best to breed within the line for several generations before we can call it our own...probably 3 generations on one side and 3 or 4 on the other side...if we outcross a little here and there no problem if it is done to freshen up the line on to improve on a trait...but if we keep outcrossing on a regular basis and putting your kennel name on the dogs...does not make them your line of dogs because they are scatter bred...and scatter bred dogs do not produce consistency...

Making the GRADE in my yard started at 8 weeks...I had plenty of time to mess with my dogs and pups because I worked 12 hour shifts and was off quite a bit and the kids were at school and my wife was working...

I tested the pups for winding and tracking and the ability to find...as they got older I took them to the woods and saw which ones just rolled out...also noted who hunted and bayed...what age did they start and at what age when they made the complete race on a hog...also noted at what age they struck their first hog...too open on track...too slow on track...how fast did the pup line the track out...we have to look at all the details...I reckon it is my nature to do these things...

I also took them to the canal to see who hit the water like a lab and who was the fastest and strongest swimmers...I learned what type of body build made the best swimmers...

I also took them for long runs at the beach to see what speed they had...but most important who had the heart to dig deep and try to maintain that all out running...I always let them win the race...I turned the dogs loose to run and when I gunned the truck 3 times the race was on...I used the same trick with my wheeler in the woods once they were tired just to make them get ahead...

I am also a firm believer in selecting for NATURAL ABILITY...if we spend lots of hours trying to get a pup/dog to hunt you can expect the same from the offspring...

I also use my logic as to how much woods time has the pup had and a good dog will hunt but maybe lack experience...no excuses for a dog but sound reasoning a must...

Our logic should tell us if a pup is on the way to making a top dog if we know the line...

there are pups that are laid back and easy going and don't try to act cocky and they tend to stay away from fighting for a spot in the pecking order...yet when they are ten months old they are as rough as a cur dog can get and the billy bad ass pups stand back and bay...I have made that observation...

it is all about common sense logic and we must analyze everything a pup and dog are doing...The Garmin can be a big help...we don't have to tell the story as it is unfolding just see it on the Garmin...

A great hunting dog just knows where to look to find game...some dogs stay busy but don't find much game...

in hog hunting it is my opinion that breeding the perfect stop dog that meets all the above mentioned traits is hard to produce...I am talking about a dog that can stop one in every type of terrain...

when we first start out breeding a line of dogs we might have to accept a few flaws but as we breed the next generations there should be fewer exceptions and then we have to up our standard as we move forward...I have spent many an hour thinking, reading, and analyzing all aspects of hunting/working dogs...don't leave no stone unturned...

Well......

I see several points made from different folks above that fit a likeable scenario.

Exposure............Important.....But doesn't solely impress me.

Knowing a line.......Very Important .......Man can make a more educated decisions quicker. But doesn't soley produce jam up dogs continually used by its self.

Providing an aid to enhace the learning abilities ......Good tool....

Now............. These things make a great combination for success utilized together.

But only one stands in its own ball park by it self swinging a slugger...and needs no other to lean on.
Rueben...........ya got the winner winner chicken dinner.


...................NATURAL ABILITY......................


That's the diamond that is worth the wait. 

The older I get the more patient I get but it definitely has not always been my strong suit. I have several expectations of my dogs especially if it's to be considered for breeding. Reuben and I are usually on about the same page and I agree with him in this instance too, but want to has become the first thing they have gotta have. They don't have to be the greatest ever by two years old. They have to WANT TO BE A HOG DOG every trip to the woods. I will be patient and maybe overlook a couple of short comings as long as I know that I am getting the try from them. I heard two quotes from high school football coaches recently that I really liked and pretty much are the way I look at everything I do, dogs included. First was "Average is as close to the bottom as it is the top" and the second was "Winning isn't everything but trying to is". I nor my dogs are the best, but I sure try to be and expect my dog to have that same want to.

I agree with everything TDog just stated.  I to can over look somethings if I know the dog is trying his best to be his best.  Sometimes if a young dog say 18 to 24 mo. is lacking in one area he is strong in another area and as the maturing deal goes on a lot of time a dog will improve seems like over nite in the area he may have back lacking, sometimes it just comes with maturity and then again sometimes he will never make up in his lacking area. I myself do not think some dogs are a lot of dogs even come close to maturing till they are well over 3 years old and some later than this .  I guess if he comes from my dogs are somebody I know real well like Tdog and his line then am out to be way more patience than if it comes from some line of dogs I don't know which that aint gonna happen much with me cause I only got what I breed here and one other line which comes from Rooster .  I want some day to cross my line with Tdogs line like do a best to best breeding and see how they cross been wanting to do that for a long long time but just have not done it as of yet.  I will say this the one thing I will not budge from is I want a dog that has that gritty grit in your face type of grit like am now seeing from these crosses I made.  The kind were they are two foot out of the hogs face when he is trying to run and then smart enuff to back off some to hold him but will hit him like a hammer if he trys to run then as the catch dog gets there will mount his ass and help .  Also as far as the catchiness goes in these cur dogs of mine.   I want one that if he is going to be like that he is coming at you with no doubts, about what he is gonna do no hesitation in his mind what he is going to do.  Its you are me and no inbetween  , am gonna mount your big butt are am gonna die trying not the kind that is gonna get hit then turn into a bay dog.  I will separate these types of dogs and run them in their on pack.  Just me .