EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Perty sure this is gonna start a landslide.....but truly an honest question that has eluded me on a knowledgeable answer.

Where did the natural bobtail trait come from in these main line bred YBMC that are being mass marketed?

Truly wanting a knowledgeable answer with some history research to back the response.

Granted I am explicitly familiar of the Cur dog trait being composed of numerous breeds.  But without the exposure to a Kemmer or Mountain cur breed........haven't been able to justify.

What's ya thoughts gents? 

Again not a hate post...looking for a feasible answer that actually chalks up to where my suspicions lead my curiosity.

Enjoy

Myles, how bout this, not sure if its true, but i figure it would b a good place start. Like u said, the "original" curs were bred from who knows or cross bred to neighboring ranch curs. But what ever the make up is, i think the bobtail genes hav been isolated for specific breeding traits. That hidden gene poped up randomly in the past, those that liked the looks/confirmation of the bobtail would get/hang on to the pup, search around to find another bob of opposite sex n breed them. 2 naturals bred together hav a greater chance of throwing more bobtails. Then comes the line breeding n throwin a bob in from another unrelated litter n continuing the cycle till the bobtail trait is dominant in the breeding program. I hope my comment didnt come off as a smart ass, if so, it was 100% NOT what i was tryin to accomplish.

I bred my tailed male over to my short tailed (3-4") bitch and out of 7, only 1 had a short tail. I didnt mark him, but i think he went to mavrik10 on here, but as far as the few pups born on my yard, they all get bobbed at 3-4 days old. For me, personal prefrence. Iv owned 1 true bobtail n i have this current short tail.
I did though breed 2 tailed yellers n got 1 bobtail and a couple short tails in the litter. I dont think i kept a short tail, i could hav, but i picked the 2 that i wanted n let the others go.

Yes Charles your point makes perfect since.

But I am wanting to know if someone knows specifically the dog or breed of dog that started this gene in some lines of YBMC.

I keep looking towards the mountains for answers .........am I crazy?

 naw, I wouldn't think its a crazy thought of the mountain or kemmer cur to be involved in the manufacturing of the yeller bmcs. but if mnt curs were used, wouldn't at some point in the generations of breeding, brindle bmcs would arise from the depths of the gene pool?

this topic I would think would go back a similar topic a while back, asking what dogs made up the bmc line. nobody could seem to answer the ? of, what dogs made up the bmc, with any 100% certainty.

 during the westward expansion, im sure ranch dogs were mixed and bred with numerous "breeds" of dogs along the trip, and during these breedings, possibly before there was a true name given to any 1 type of breed a bobtail dog was used or got ahold of their dogs and 2 months later, that gene was in the "bmc" line of dogs.
im sure you have ran across this link and if so, sry for posting it.
 http://www.blackmouthcur.com/History.htm
I can NOT find ANY info other than the link I posted, to truly say what dogs made up the modern yeller cur, which still leaves the bobtail gene origin honestly unanswered.
I do know that some registry owners will take any ole' "cur as they call it" and throw it in their breeding pool just on ther dogs looks and or performance and now that dog is a bmc, yet other registries will register the dog/s IF you can provide a 6+ generation breeding linage of the potential bmc candidate along with pics of the linage and some form of documentation as proof of the generational breedings

I to would like to know, but with so many of the antique old timers passed away along with their knowledge, its gonna be near impossible to pin point the exact dog/s used to the throw the bobtail trait, EXCEPT for modern medical science and a DNA profile of the dog breeds.

Think there should be a specific cross well inside this generation that explains it. 

Not all YBMC lines produce natural bobtails.  Just cannot put my finger on the specific cross that does.

 did u get a bobtail pup out 1 of ur litters or a litter from a friend that yaw swap dogs with?

as far as registries go. I know the foundation registered dogs throw them, the black mouth cur breeder (used to be the southern bmcba) will NOT register any natural bobtail, and the dogs registered within that registry have to have some kind of distinctive tail and if a bob is thrown, it can not be registered. the former abmc (American black mouth cur) registry im not sure of 100% but I don't think they allowed bobs in there either. until I got some of the foundation dogs, none of my southern dogs had or threw bobs. not saying that other litters from other folks who dealt with the southern didn't throw bobs, especially since a good portion of those dogs had some of the exact same blood as those foundation dogs.   

but back to the OP, im with you, leaning to the mnt cur or kemmer cur thrown into the wood pile somewhere down the road. what steers me more towards the kemmer, is the lack of brindle/merle coloring/patterns being thrown, along with the bobtails.
but if it is either the mnt or kemmer, then the next ? arises. what dogs were mixed to get those particular breeds and which of those dog/s had a bobtail.

the bob tail trait is dominate. it takes one to get one. just follow the bob tail dog's lineage back on the bob tail side as far as it goes, and you will have the answer.

the foundation isn't the only source of bobtails, they come in some of the unregistered families too.

I was speakin as to registries, thats why i stated,"as far as registries go". Yes, u r right, they can pop up in any breed or as u stated family of dog. And as for dominance "having have 1 to get 1", there are exceptions to everything. in a crossing of 2 of my full tailed dogs, i got a less than half tail, but not a complete bobtail in the litter. Several breedings before that, my fm n another full tailed maled threw a complete bobtail. Im not tryn to pick an argument, just stating what iv witnessed personaly.

the sire or the dam wasn't a completely full tail. it may have been missing as few as one or two vertebrae at the end of it's tail.

 I didn't xray and count the vertebrates, so yes, either 1 could have been missing 1 or 2 or 3, but so could many other breeds that are defined as full/standard tails. how many S vertebrates are all dogs suppose to have?

Haha....nah brotha. Been raising these almost my whole life and never even saw a bobtail on a Yeller dog till the invention of the net.

Traits typically spawn from one particular cross....dog...or event that can be narrowed down by someone somewhere.
Didn't say I was a fan....but not gonna hold it against others if it pleases them.

But the curiosity aspect of it is what intrigues me to ask.

Ahhh, ok. Just figured a bobtail got stuck in the woodpile n it just now rose from the ashes  ;D
It dont bother me either way, but i cant stand box barkin or tails thumpin the box or thrashin all around, so they loose them things asap.

Saw a lot in the ladner line.

you will have to go off the back end of the papers on the foundation dogs to find out the true origin of the bobtails in that registry. the rio concho dog was bobtailed, and he was supposedly unrelated. he has a three gen. background with the foundation and was used as an outcross to the ben breeding. so its going to come through on more than one source. it just takes tracing it back further than what is recorded in the registry.
beaver's crook was another original source of the bobtails. i'm sure there were others. ben jordan has kept and bred from bobtails. the people wright received and bred dogs from are the people you should talk to if you really want to know...

Concho wasnt a full bobtail. He had around a 3-4" tail. I used him for outcross n he threw 2 short tails out of 11 pups.

half tail, bob tail, 3/4 tail, 7/8 tail.

it's all the same gene. natural bobtail refers to anything shorter than a fully developed tail.

 hey myles, I did a lil lookin and found this. u mite hav seen it too, I don't know, but here is a lil of what I found.
as stated, out of the 23 dogs studied, which there r way more than 23, but maybe 1 of these breeds helped produce the bmc line many, many yrs ago.
A mutation in a gene called the T-box transcription factor T gene (C189G) accounts for natural bobtails in 17 of 23 dog breeds studied, but not in another 6 dog breeds, for which the genetic mechanism is yet to be determined.[2]

Natural bobtail dog breeds with C189G mutation:
Australian Shepherd
Austrian Pinscher
Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
Braque du Bourbonnais
Brazilian Terrier
Brittany Spaniel
Croatian Sheepdog
Danish Swedish Farmdog
Jack Russell Terrier
Karelian Bear Dog
Mudi
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Pyrenean Shepherd
Rottweiler
Braque Francais aka Savoy Sheepdog
Schipperke
Spanish Water Dog
Swedish Vallhund
Pembroke Welsh Corgi

Natural bobtail dog breeds without C189G mutation:
Boston Terrier
English Bulldog
King Charles Spaniel
Miniature Schnauzer
Parson Russell Terrier

Dog breeds into which the C189G mutation has been introduced by cross-breeding:
Boxer

i'm told it comes from the beavers crook dog , i've seen when dogs are bred real tight - he will show his tail , or lack of one lol

a couple more that contributed the bobtail gene to the foundation dogs.  there may be more, but i can't think of them off hand.

wright's cow camp was a natural bob tail. he was a sims male over an easter female, no ben breeding.
gay's sonny was a natural bob tail, he was william's ben bred to gay's henrietta, no ben breeding.

Williams Ben was a grandson to the Crook dog. The Weatherfords Ben dod did not carry bob tails in "his" lineage. W Ben was out of Henry and Bonnie, Henry was given to Ben Jordan by Ricky Driver and he was out of Leroy and Liz, Bonnie was a red gyp that was from Phil Lynes and owned by Mike Baumen, I have read where she was several differrent things but she was from Phil Lynes and neither of them had any bobtails in their lineage, that all came from other lines. I am not really up on the foundation dogs but do know the Ben side of them.

I made a typo Weatherfords Ben was out of Baumens Ben and Bonnie.

Here is are the 2 dogs i bred n got a short tail out of. If it didnt come from the ben side which my dam was out of, then it had to come from the sire but i cant find a short or bobtail in his lineage.

Dam:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/09/qazy5eta.jpg)

Sire:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/09/qa5e6aju.jpg)


2 burning, 6 turning

Those papers are incorrect, they show Baumens Ben to be out of Henry and Beavers Daly, when in fact Baumens Ben is out of a female that was owned by the Johnson's and named ugly, she had been pawed in the head and her skull was caved in. Baumens Ben was a stud fee pup from Johnsons to Ben Jordan and sold to Mike Baumen. They also show Bonnie to be from Bo Nutting which is incorrect. That is the only ones listed that I know.

charles, i suspect the burkhart's vk female of being a bobtail.

i can't say wether she was or wether cowboy was, but she has had bobtailed offspring, i just don't know if they were natural or docked.

Well that makes the second time the Crook dogs name has came up as a possible source beginning.

So let's magnify in specifically on him.

What timeframe was this dog around?........who bred him originally?  And what was his background?

thanks for that bit of info on william's ben.

would you post or private message his pedigree info?
i'd be interested to write down what you know of it.
thanks again.

Williams Ben was out of Henry and Bell, Bell was out of Henry's paternal aunt named Ginny and Crook.

I can only go by what them papers say and if they are incorrect, they came from the foundation incorrect. iv got a copy of the her foundation papers somewhere on 1 of my computers or external hard drives and the southern papers reflect the exact same linage as the foundation papers. I can only go off what im provided with and there are 1 of 2 possibilities as to why the papers are incorrect. 1. accidental human entering error, or 2. a straight up bald face lie.

Don't mean to cause any hate or discontent but the dogs and people I have mentioned I know or knew personally, as to why the papers are incorrect I have no answer.

The Old Man is dead on on  the pedigree. The Crook Dog was owned by the Beavers when he was bred to Ginny and All who had that blood culled it or bred away from it. He must have been a powerfull stud dog to be responsible for all those bob tails and very seldom, if ever shows up on a pedigree. Mr. Sewell, Burkhart, Sims or Mr. Gay did not keep or breed tailess dogs.

i agree with this...

i always questioned the beaver's crook dog to a big degree, as i have never traced any pedigreed dogs to him.
however, now that i know he is the grandsire to gay's sonny, it clears a little bit of it up.
gay's sonny was bobtailed and many papered dog's can be traced to him.  there are still bobtailed dogs that do not trace to him to my knowledge. which does not mean that they don't some where off the back end of those papers...

Thanks for chiming in Bob.

Guess my next question would be.....did the Crook dog just happen to be born without a tail that accidentally turn into a genetic trait.....or did he have natural bobs in his background from unknown origins?

It wasn't just Williams Ben and Gays Sonny that went to Crook. There were also some Crook females purchased from JE Beavers that went to Texas.

So were all these dogs from that source producing natural bobtails as an aready established trait?

I would take a guess that a huge percentage of bobtailed BMC's trace to Crook and folks just didn't know it or the papers don't show it. I do not consider bobtails to be a BMC trait, not to take away from Crook as he was a really good dog and produced some real good dogs, in fact one of my favorites was a grandson,  a littermate to Williams Ben. I never bred him though.

Ok im gonna throw this out there.  I am in no way trying to start an argument, discussion and LORD knows we don't need another Fl cur thread.  

But here goes;

I have never met the man alive that knows what makes up these south Florida cow dogs, however I do notice a real similarity between my mutts and some of the BMCs on here.  That being said we get a lot of bob tailed dogs out of mine and dogs like mine.  My guess is theres some old bulldog blood in the wood pile, which would explain why they are rough like they are.

Is it not possible theres some in yalls dogs too?  I know yall have a registry to keep track of genes etc. and we don't have anything like that, we just go off of memory and what one man passes down to the younger generation, but does anyone truly know what went into BMCs to "create" them?

here we go !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you seen the parents to this crook dog? Or does it go back to far?

Never saw his parents, he was from Tx and no one that I knew of, knew exactly what he was out of.

I have been told that TSL Delight was a Mountain Cur. And that came from a reliable source. So if you have a bobtailed foundation dog trace it back to see if it goes back to Delight. Her blood is in a lot of Foundation dogs.


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Quoted from Sam Piper's website in Virginia.  (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/borne_in_the_bone_kennel.htm (http://www.blackmouthcur.com/borne_in_the_bone_kennel.htm))

...My oldest Female is TLS Delight.  She was bred by the Adam's Braford Ranch in Florida which at that time didn't keep records on their dogs.  If a dog didn't work cattle, they didn't keep it.  I was given to understand that they were primarily concerned about working ability and health in their dogs, not registrations.  I bought Dee from Lamon Sivils in Texas about five years ago as an outcross for my Ben line.  Before he registered her he had test bred Dee to ensure that she wouldn't produce any off color pups.  No one is sure just how old she is but she just keeps going and going....

TLS delight was a Florida bred cur dog from the Adam's Ranch in Ft. Pierce, Florida. Their ain't never been any mountains in Florida ;)

agreed...

tls delight was a straight up died in the wool florida cur...

Agreed.

TLS Delight was a FL Cur.
Blockier head, long legged bobtail. I've always heard Adams Ranch supposedly had the best cow dogs in FL.
They crossed her over Reno and got Okefenokee Cowboy.
Along with countless other dogs (Some bobtail)
Cowboy is a natural bobtail and has produced quite a few also.
I am sure this off spring has went all over the US and been bred.
My dogs are off Reno's direct son Midas. He is a product of Reno crossed over Riverbend Polly.
He has no TLS Delight in his blood. He has thrown countless bobtail pups.
I have 4 dogs off of him all different litters and moms and they are bobtail or pump handle tails.
Midas has a long tail also but seems to throw a lot of bobtail.
My guess would be somewhere down the line of Reno or Ben a bobtail cur dog was added to the mix.

Florida has a funny way of being at the heart of everything ;)

I think it's funny that they take what ever dog & register it as what they want. Even if there is a Florida dog in the wood pile

I'm pretty sure where a dog is born has nothing to do with registration.  Dogs are registered as a certain breed based on meeting the breed standard of said breed.

I know you Florida guys would love to take credit, but....

So since every one gets so made about us not telling y'all what really made our dogs can you tell us what really makes a yeller black mouth cur since we have established florida dogs are in there? And there are other Florida dogs that have been bred in to the foundation blood. Michelle mears had a lot of Florida blood bred into her foundation dogs and that is why they were as good as they were.

Junior... the Florida dogs are only in the bob tailed, pink nosed registered dogs.

You won't find any bob tails or pink nosed in the old East Texas stock.

I can see that since most of Michelle's dogs were as described.

I think he means that they took an unregistered FL dog "TLS Delight" and bred it over Reno and registered the litter.
Delight had no papers coming off the Adams ranch. But she was accepted and the litter was registered.
She did have a build similar to the foundation BMC and was a yellow bobtail FL cur off an old ranch in Florida.
She was not a papered foundation blackmouth.

Correct

There is the  reason the original question was asked. Have never saw a single one...ever......in this area's dogs. But common as the day is long in these other strains. Just peaks my curiosity to the original introduction origin.

I am not a big historian on these specific dogs..know others are. But seems like its some big secret. Dunno why?

Have had several very knowledgeable men Pm me answers that make sense from personal knowledge. But gonna keep that info behind closed conversations.  Feel it would take this post for a downward spiral and end with stalemated arguments even though I agree completely.

The short and skinny is simple ........It was introduction trait.   Now the search continues for the exact identifiable cross. Possibly from several separate sources.

Good post gents.  Staying interesting for sure.
All views and knowledge  are welcomed.

The registry was originally started as a means of keeping records...nothing more, nothing less.  Now what happened to it after that I suppose is debateable.

As far as "no such thing as a purebred Florida cur", is there any such thing as a pure bred ANY breed of dog?  Every breed as we know it is made of something.

I don't care one way or the other... I don't own a dog whose pedigree can be found anywhere but in my personal records.

(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m499/bullrider111/D0A5A9C4-23DD-4775-9001-080143D3879F_1.png) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/bullrider111/media/D0A5A9C4-23DD-4775-9001-080143D3879F_1.png.html)

Here is a picture natural bobtail Bmc I post pedigree in a min.

I'll just throw this out there...take it or leave it.

Bulldog guys especially will know what I'm talking about.

If I'm breeding a (supposed pure) line of dogs and I run across a certain dog that I feel will compliment (or IMPROVE) my line, but that dog perhaps is of uncertain origin (or maybe even KNOWN origin  :o ).  I breed dog anyways, and perhaps my registration papers just aren't that reflective of what just happened.  To put it another way, future generations will see on those papers what I want them to see.  Get my point?

If someone doesn't believe this happens, then you're far too trusting and I have some ocean front property I'd like to sell you.

Papers are only as reliable as the people behind them, and we all know that dog folks can be tricky little boogers sometimes!

Bryant, you are right on with that comment in the Bulldog world. Many of those ol guys would give you a bowl of soup but you wouldn't get the recipe. I'm sure some of those ol huntin dog breeders did the same or it could be that they weren't sure which dog did the breeding but this one looks better on paper.

Totally agree, I don't keep up with papers and don't care about papers.
Papers  don't   make dogs. Same thing is what happend to the lab breed... People doctoring  papers! Sad, but now with DNA testing it can make it harder for people to Falsify paper work! And keep breeds "more pure"
Jmo.

 
and it seems the foundation is good bout doctoring papers, but cast stones at those that do it within that registry, AND bringing in any ole' mutt to use as an outcross and then throw it on the papers. buncha double standard 2 faced !@#holes.

but it may answer the ? of what is a fl cur. it must be a bmc with another name, or bmc is a fl cur with another name.

 my granddady was born in 1921 they had free ranged hogs and cattle in the central fla woods for 3 generations . ( that we can document ) they used curdogs to find and bay hogs and they would catch the pigs with a noose on the end of a pole to cut and mark . they marked and branded cattle too ( thier own nobody elses ) . then in the fall pen them for butcher and sale . he said they had SOME DOGS  that were yeller and black mouth , and some every other color .



he had 7 uncles that moved to texas before he was born and ran cattle n hogs in the woods around nacagdoches .

 the east texas bmc came from east texas, before that it came from farther east, before that their ancesters come over here on a boat !!!

jude hart had a line of bmc's , his dogs followed his daddy's wagon when they moved from fla.  in the book ( the big thicket legacy )  . he says that he bred some of his dogs to some of his neighbors dogs in texas ... no big secret as far as i'm concerned

(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m499/bullrider111/0D44A30D-87F0-465E-BA6A-76D52D98C93D.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/bullrider111/media/0D44A30D-87F0-465E-BA6A-76D52D98C93D.jpg.html)

Is it a coincidence that if you follow the routes of Spanish exploration and settlement in the United States you will see remnants of their cattle/hog/horse culture . . including stock oriented cur dogs? Seems obvious to me that the distant ancestors of Catahoulas, Lacys, BMCs, (Texas type) Leopard dogs and Florida or Cracker curs are one and the same. Throw in the so-called Cuban bloodhounds used to run down Indians and escaped slaves and stir it all up and you'll arrive at the dogs of De Soto, Cortez and Ponce de Leon. With, of course . . loads of bulldog, foxhound, collie, shepherd, etc that found it's way into the recipe along the way. It's one of BIGO's favorite subjects if you can get him talking.

On a separate note, if you trace back 5-10 generations past Owens' Liz you'll find one leg of her pedigree goes to a family (primarily) of naturally bob-tailed, Leopard cow dogs belonging to Wesley Cotton (1928-2003) and his father Thomas Wesley Cotton (1893-1964) of Milam County, Tx. The man who produced Liz didn't like bob-tails and bred away from them . . . never produced a single bob-tailed dog after the early-mid 1950s.

yessir mr. barlow . ben jordan has said that the tail and the color is the easiest things to breed for  ;)