EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I read somewhere in a magazine that said sometimes you get cats with mainly white and they Erik sometimes come out bind or deaf anyone ever heard of this?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+predominantly+white+catahoulas+have+deafness+and+blindness+problems

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yes it is possible. the old timers around me use to cull them out when they were born

I've never owned a Catahoula and can't stand a performance animal with excessive white on it, as a matter of preference . . but just based on reading and some second hand info from friends . . . I believe it's white on the head, especially in the area of the eye and ears. And it isn't breed specific to Catahoulas. Dalmatians have the same issue and I was told by an old breeder that it was one reason why excessive white was disallowed from Boxer breed standards til the 90's or so.

Any of y'all remember the last time a Paint horse won the Kentucky Derby?  ;)

   it is not hearsay it is a fact , it's the mearl gene that causes it and you can have a solid black dog born deaf due to it  . some solid dogs are called ghost mearls . it is when you have a solid or dog with no white at all carrying the double mearl gene .

Yep, mearle gene is what causes it like halfbreed stated. Lots of notable breeders will pick and choose their breedings to try and minimize the number of pups born that way.

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Merle is a dominant gene. It does not exist where it isn't present. Having said that, there is a color factor known as "clear red" where the merle is masked but not visible. Those dogs will also have red noses . . I think they lack the ability to produce black . . sort of one step back from an albino wherein they produce pigment, just not black (maybe where the Foundation BMC guys got the idea for their so-called red albinos?). I acquired a leopard cow dog a year or so back and got mildly curious about this stuff. If you have any questions or can't find the answer on anything to do with merle, brindle, albinism or other color and inheritance factors in dogs . . . I suggest you google or contact Dr Sheila Schmutz. She is a PhD at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada and considered among the world's foremost experts on canine coat color genetics. Nice lady and you can find her contact info on her website.

Some of the yellow dogs of Bob Owens and Skoalbandett will occasionally throw red nosed pups. I've never been interested enough to try and prove it out . . but I believe those to be carriers of a recessive "clear red" factor tracing back to the Lewis Woodruff/Coffield Ranch leopard dogs in their ancestry.

X2 on that.....

I'm suppose to be picking up a pup Sunday and one of its litter mates is deaf. The dog is solid white with two small grey patches on its shoulders. Two glass eyes..  my pup has the most color but its neck is white and some of the face but the rest of the body is grey and black

   I saw a pic of that pup on that facebook thingy , my first thought was that it would be a deaf one . check it out good before you buy it .  clap your hands around it and all that kinda thing  . I garranty it is a double mearl and carrying the deaf gene and could throw you some deaf pups down the road  .

Why even bother with it? You already know a littermate has a full on case of deafness, so just skip on that litter, or possibly even that breeder all together and get something that's more genetically sound.

Just friendly advice, you may take it or leave it.

I had a solid white 3/4 cat 1/4 treeing walker and he was deaf as the day is long. He was one of the hardest baying dogs I've ever seen. He was eventually " sent down the road ".

There are some dogs that are def and some are blind because of white around the eyes and the ears. That being said it does not mean that every dog in the litter is def. Or that a litter mate is going to have a problem. There is a guy name johnny wager that has a line of ring neck catahoulas that are white and not def or blind his dogs are some of the hardest hunting cats I have seen. But his dogs are not dubble mearls he will breed two solid black dogs and she will throw all white and some with white with some black spots.

That would be good idea, but he would have to avoid every breeder that had a Merle color dog whether it was cat, aussie, leopard hound, collie, and farm Shepard's. Oh and dotsons lol.  It is very much genetic but is also directly connected to the  mutated Merle gene, in most cases double Merle but in some as Mr Whitten mentioned the ghost or "Cryptic Merle".

http://www.fairmatecatahoulas.com/merle-gene.html

My wife had a mostly blind and pretty much deaf Aussie one time that was mostly white they called it "lethal white."

Always watch the white ones. I had two out of my litter that were real white with pink noses and pink around their eyes. Both were deaf but not blind.

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The land owner of a ranch in south texas that my buddy hunts on has a solid white cat with double glass eye, course he's a house dog but he still looks cool.

Does anyone on this board have, or know of anyone who currently has . . a living example of a ghost merle or a cryptic, invisible, anti, non-leopard merle. I've heard and read internet chatter forever about them but I've never seen one and never met directly anyone who could show me one.

If anyone has a living dog that is solid black with absolutely zero leopard spotting or streaking, etc . . but who is a merle and can produce merle pups when bred to a non merle dog of the opposite sex . . . I would travel just about any distance to see it. Albino/white or red with no black pigmentation is the exception. Only looking for currently living dogs with reproductive ability. Specifically black dogs. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

I have a primary all white Catahula. My Flacco has a black patch on his head and one on his back. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/23/2ezyjezy.jpg)

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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/23/na8y4ene.jpg)

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I have a solid black bitch here who if I were to breed her to my solid red male they will likely throw merles. They are both het for the merle gene. Each of them had one merle parent.

so you're saying that neither dog is merle . . but you can breed them and produce leopard spotted pups? have you done this? does the red dog have any black in his coat? his nails? his nose?

I know this is about cats but the dogos have the same problem, and in the years I have delt with them I have noticed the uni lats or bi lats all lack pigmentation in or around the ear area and eyes. Not always but at least 80-90% of the time. I wonder if the merle trait in cats causes the lack of pigmentation around their eyes and ear and causes this as well? I have always said I wished the dogo breed had color to them LMAO thus why I like pirates and heavy skin pigmentation on the ones I have lol.

Interesting reading here on this thread. Thanks for the information on the double merle and ghost merles.

Good info on this thread,i to come from were a white cat gets culled hard we have tryed the white ones,in 25 yrs of me knowing bout our dogs i know of one white cat that had it all..the rest dont make it.

When dealing with the merle gene in Catahoulas, the only sure way to identify a true
solid color dog is with DNA testing. The majority of dogs that appear to be solid are
actually single merle dogs. Also, a dog that may appear to be a single merle (normal
looking leopard) may be a double merle when DNA tested. The double merle dogs
are the ones with potential hearing and sight problems. A few breeding examples below.

Solid X Solid = Solid pups, no chance of merle pups.

Solid X Single Merle = Some pups will be merle and some pups will be solid. No
                                  double merle pups .

Single Merle X Single Merle = This breeding can produce double merle, single merle,
                                             or solid pups.

Solid X Double Merle = Each pup will get a solid gene from the solid parent and a
                                   merle gene from the double merle parent. ALL pups will be
                                    single merle.

Double Merle X Single Merle = Some pups will be double merle and half will be single
                                              merle.

Most breedings that take place are single merle to single merle. If you get some double merle pups from making this breeding, don't breed the same dogs again. Knowing and
studying the line of dogs your breeding will definitely help in identifying which crosses to
avoid. In 5 litters (40 pups) of breeding single merle to single merle, I have had one pup
born deaf. Out of the 5 litters, I only got a few leopards in each litter. Most of the pups
I get are black, red, brindle or buckskin.    Back in the day before the popularity just
about ruined the Catahoula breed, and yes I believe the breed is just about ruined except
for a very small percentage of good working lines, the Old Timers followed 2 simple rules
to avoid producing pups with hearing and eye problems. They had these sayings:
       1. "You have to breed the blacks to get the blues".
       2. " Never breed them faded, washed out colored, dogs."

Yep! They are both merle carriers, or "het" for merle if you will. Both dogs had one merle parent. My red dog has no black at all, just tan trim. His nose is liver. I have not done this myself,f but I do know of others who have.

to my understanding . . the red dog is a clear red. it is leopard colored but it can't be seen because it lacks black pigmentation. So yes, this dog can produce visibly leopard colored pups. But the black dog is incapable of it. My original question was about breeding (for example) your black dog to (for example) the black and tan pup I raised last year who had one leopard parent.

Or, as JIMCO put it

                                   "Solid X Solid = Solid pups, no chance of merle pups"

Which is what all of the old, leopard guys that I know say, as well as geneticists. But some other rules seem to apply over the internet. I just want to see it with my own eyes.

Until someone can produce living examples that can be DNAd . . . it's kind of like that time that me and my friend BIGFOOT went hunting for BLACK PANTHERS down in the BERMUDA TRIANGLE. I'm always willing to apologize and/or admit when I'm wrong. But not just because someone tell me to.

WHOA there Nelly......I don't know why you feel that burst of sarcasm was warranted.....last I knew people were trying to have a productive (or not) conversation. And did I miss some posts here? About someone calling you out about you being 'wrong', or asking you to admit being wrong about something?

There is also more than one line of merle. There's simple recessive, and incomplete co-dominant.
I shall step away from this thread as I have no interest in partaking in any further conversation with someone who knows all the answers but asks all the questions. If you know all the answers, why are you posting about the topic?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't being sarcastic. I merely stated that every time I see or hear anything about this topic there's always someone who knows of someone who knows someone who bred non leopard colored dogs and produced leopard colored pups. But I've yet to see evidence of it. There was a guy from Virginia back in the 60's who claims he bred some Plotts descended from George Plott's Leopard bear dogs (5 or 6 generations back) and they "threw back" a whole litter of apparently recessive, Leopard colored Plotts. Which he then tried to sell for an outrageous sum of money. So, like I said to begin with . . I have a very limited knowledge of how it works . . and I've heard plenty of rumors that don't help much. I didn't call anyone out about anything. I just don't believe everything I hear. Or read. But if anyone has such a dog I'm dying to see it. Not sarcastically or any other way. Just because I want to know. I'm just interested in dogs.

thanks for all the replys and info. Ive learned alot just from reading what yall had to say. I want to upload a picture of the pup I got Sunday but I cant get it to upload. I went to "additional options" and attached the picture but it says the upload folder is full. The picture is only 87kb which is well below the maximum size allowed... 

(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/mail4ash83/Bristol_zps58e050be.jpg) (http://s91.photobucket.com/user/mail4ash83/media/Bristol_zps58e050be.jpg.html)


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Good lookin lil booger!

Thanks hope she turns out as good as she looks

Here is a link to the hidden merle gene or cryptic Merel or ghost merel and show a few pics of examples.
www.fairmatecatahoulas.com/merle-gene.html


here is a great link on deafness. Good read with some good info.
www.offa.org/deaf_genetics.html


My dad bought a young American Leopard male dog a long time ago that went deaf when it turned two.   I was always taught that they don't always have to be born deaf to become deaf.  That they could turn deaf as they get older and a lot of times this was before the dog turned two years old.  Dad had seen leopards do this before.   Mostly out of a double merle cross but not always.  Also the deaf ones didn't haft to have a lot of white on them either so some of this had to be inherited.

Check the links out if you get a chance.

 You can do a little visual inspection of her eyes. Check for good round pupils. Oblong or misshaped pupils is a good sign of trouble down the road.  I'd have her checked over really good by a vet to double everything.  good luck with her....