EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

OK, since my question sorta got lost in the midst of my total frustration in the last thread 8) here's the serious question...

Do you think there is any difference in injury to the bay dogs between using a lead-in catch dog versus baying and shooting?

We don't use running catch dogs, our dogs are bayed solid before we ever unclip the pits, who hit on an ear and hunker down. The dogs don't have to bay and wait for us to line up a shot.  They aren't at risk from a stray bullet. I'm not saying that baying and shooting is worse, but in my opinion it is no safer for the bay dogs. Dogs are gonna get cut whether you have a gun or a pit. Correct? But I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this.

Leave the bullets at home.  Too many bad things can happen.  Bone can exit a hog and become a projectile.  TOO MANY BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN AROUND MY DOGS!!!!!!!!!!  If they are your dogs, than by all means bring the bullets.  That is how I view it.  I don't want my stuff killed because someone gets excited.

JMO

 Bay and Shoot.
    Dogs bay. Hunter shoots. Dead pig. Safe in my mind. I have only shot and killed 7 or so hogs with my dogs but I have never worried about hitting one of them. You arnt shooting from 80yards. And if you have to work too hard at getting a clear shot your dogs shouldnt be getting shot over in the first place.

When the bulldog hits the pigs the dogs catch with them. That is when I think most cuts happen. When the hog is shot it drops. End of story. Your friend out near me(TG) shoots over his dogs. It has worked for him. ;D
  We have hit hogs with 30carbines,7mm and 30-30 and havent had a problem when them being alive when they hit the dirt. I like dropping bulldogs thats why I dont shoot over the dogs much. But when I am alone I will bring the gun. I feel that shooting over the dogs is mroe safe then using catchdogs.

ouch that was a low blow!! try to keep the gloves up!! lol

Savoy, I understand the reasoning with the other dogs catching, but you really have no worries about lining up a shot or a stray bullet? I know one dog that got it's leg blown off and one dog that actually got killed from shooting over a bay. I think I've let Steve shoot over Sadie once, can't remember exactly, but he's the only one I trust to do that. And it's not because he's a great shot, it's because he knows without a doubt that if he shoots my dog then he's next! Plus, though this may not be as logical, I feel a lot safer with the pits. They take care of business every single time. If it was a big boar, I'd trust them over the possibility for human error.

put another slash mark by the pits for me aswell! I always feel comfortable legging a hog that is being held by my lead in!! I have not seen him come loose without a break stick yet and it gives me a chance to feed the hog a couple of weeks and clean it out before slaughtering it!! yeah ima have to say catch dog for sure! MY OPINION

If someone hits a dog with a stray bullet, they dont have much business carrying a gun. Now if the whole scene shifts at the time of a shot, that would be different.

My bird dogs are not broke to flush, meaning, when the bird flushes, they are moving. That is my choice in training and I have to shoot over running dogs with a shotgun. Shooting a bayed hog would be about the same if not easier , most of the time, in my brief experience and personal opinion.

Just like anything else, most of the safety issues depend on the operator, or shooter in this case.

I have never taken a gun ever. Most of the time I forget my knife! ha  :-[ I would think a catchdog or maybe even 2 CDs would be safer than a gun....Maybe the 2nd catchdog would knock your Lacys out of the way when he catches??

I have done both and as far as dogs getting cut much I think that totaly depends on the dogs being gritty or not.  Funny thing is we use a 222 over 20 guage for shooting over the dogs the 222 is loaded with hornedy vmax as when it penetrates it explodes inside and vertually elimiates the bullet comeing out the other side with even just a decent size hog.  a dog is going to get cut allmost no matter what it is just a matter of time eather way you go about it and personally I like to pack them out alive but that is just me

A 30-30 shell to the head or a catch dog?  If you take your time and check all dogs before you shoot - how is it unsafe to your dogs?  If you don't have a good, clear, lethal shot - don't shoot.  I hunt both ways, but prefer shooting any day.  A well placed head shot is a much cleaner, quicker kill than a knife.  I use two baydogs when I shoot.  The dogs tend to put put less pressure in lesser numbers and the hog is more than likely (not always) going to stand still, providing a better shot.  I have to agree with Cutter Bay that NOBODY shoots over my dogs but me.  Used to guide hunts in the Hill Country and it was unbelievable the shots that guys would want to try and take when it would have obviously been a disaster.  
It takes a person who can calmly and confidently assess the bay as far as dog location, what's in the background, shot placement, etc......

I use 30-30 or a 357 lever action....and no, I don't just pull up and start firing at anything that moves....guns don't kill, people do...I would think I wouldn't have to explain that on this website...Obviously, if you don't know what you are doing with a firearm then you don't need to be in the woods anyway.

This is just me but my dogs mean to much to me and are like family, and there is always that chance, I would never shoot over one of my dogs...I know what yall are thinkin there is the chance from a hog too, but thats what they love not bullets...... just my 95 cents...

Ditto!

I haven't shot a hog over a dog in more than two years but In my experience it has been much safer for the dogs and hunters than using catch dogs. That being said I think it is ill advised and of poor judgment to use a gun with your dogs at night. At night a catch dog or two is the only way in my opinion.

Due to work I had about a 10 year gap were I was only able to shoot hogs most of the time unless I had a friend along that owned a catch or two. I personally couldn't keep the dog power at home to go it alone catching them so I found myself in the woods with 1 or 2 dogs and my rifle most of the time.
After years of only catching and tying hogs it didn't take me long to realise that I didnt use my cut kit at all when I was just shooting hogs. Ill also add that I used the same gritty dogs both ways. Just less of them when using my rifle.
I love to catch and tie but no one can convince me that catch dogs are safer than using a gun. As with any type of firearm sport, safety has always got to be a first as others have already stated.
I have literally shot and killed well over 1000 hogs over dogs and have never came close to risking injury to a person or dog due to firearms. Ive seen and heard of others falling short of that though but the odds in my experience work out much better for the dogs when the rifle is out and the catch dogs are left at home.
In 23 years of hog hunting I have never seen a dog killed by a hog wile being shot over. Only one by rifle and it was a freak accident. (Check out my Magic bullet thread in guns on hogs).
As for catch dogs? I really dont want to highlight those numbers here but just check out the R.I.P. post on this board alone from the guys that use catch dogs for starters. Just stating the obvious in my mind folks.

Before anyone beats me up about my post here................I own catch dogs and tie hogs.



 

 

I have hunted both ways since I started hunting... they are equally dangerous. Its all about the dogs. IF your dogs are always getting cut up with catch dogs... they will get cut up shooting... and vise-versa.

I have seen dogs get cut because they learned to grab onto to hogs after you shoot because they think its dead. Well, you don't get a good shot on the hog... they dog pile... and the hog still has some fight in him. These were typically the same dogs that catch when catch dogs catch.

As for shooting your dogs... a gun in the wrong hands is just as dangerous as a knife in the wrong hands.

That is just my sole opinion based on my limited experience.

True Blue,
Great topic....I see a lot of good points being made. I have never met Trapper John, but I like him. I do agree with him on feeding a hog out for a couple of weeks. I give away hogs that we kill with knives on properties that we have to produce numbers (feed the homeless). Hogs caught at my place are caught and cut and marked most of the time (we never cut tails), then released. When we want some fresh pork, the hog will always be fed out before butchering. LATER...

The problem with shooting over the dogs is,  not always will you get a clear shot, and if you don't have a clear shot, don't take it.  Depending on the terrain you are in you may only get a slight glimpse of a hog, and spend alot of time trying to get one to bay in a place that you have a view of a hog. You may have many good bays in a row and may be several times you are just "stuck" waiting on the situation to change, when you could have sent in a catch dog and caught the hog. I feel like shooting takes alot more patience and skill. I m not against it, but I know way to many folks that get overly excited when they get close to a bay, they scare me with a knife in their hands, No way will they be allowed to have a firearm around me or my dogs.

I know a guy that shoots over his dogs, usually just one dog sometimes two loose baying dogs, but as soon as the gun fires the dogs jump on the hog and that is the only time that his dog gets cut, on the last adreneline pumping breaths of the hog, and the the few that the shot was not fatal.

I've taken many hogs using both methods and had just as many dogs cut by one way as the other. But on another note I won't let but a select few   peole shoot over my dogs just because a lot of people get way to excited and get tunnel vision and then that's when bad things happen. I've seen it happen and there is nothing worse than seeing a good dog shot just because someone has lost all sanity and forgot about their surrondings. I prefer to catch and tie but now that hogs are not bringing anything I have been just taking two to three dogs and shooting the hogs but I am confident in my shooting ability and I also know my dogs so I get along real good that way. Good topic

If you don't have a clear shot, you don't shoot until you do..

i prefer catchdogs, Buddy is probably more accurate grabbing an ear than my shaky alcoholic hand is at shooting anyway.

I dont think i would like to try crawling through the palmettos down here in florida with a gun, let alone try to shoot a hog in there. 99% of the hogs a catch are in thick stuff you can barely walk in

Some good points made allready.  I have hunted both ways but have far more expereince with baying and shooting.  First let me mention that allot of people say they shoot over thier dogs but this is kind of missused language... because I know for me personally I would never shoot over the top of a dog.  What I mean is if there are dogs between you and the hog or behind the hog or anywhere in the line of fire or near it, then you have to wait on a shot.  Safety is always the #1 priority when shooting a rifle at any time and even more so at a Bay.  However, because I know that self controle is lacking in many people, very few people are allowed to shoot a hog at a bay when they hunt with me.

True blue you said you use lead in catch dogs that hunker down when they catch, but do they ever miss?  And even if they dont miss does that imobilize the hog completely?  I know the anwer to those questions but my point is if you want to compare the two methods, you need to do it on an equal level.  Asuming that the catch dogs hit and don't miss and when they do they put the hog under controle immideatly is ok and can be accomplished with solid lead in catch dogs.  But if you make that assumption then you have to also assume that on the other hand, the shot is made safely with all dogs out the way and the hog drops dead immediately. So the question is when the method is executed perfectly which one is safe for the dogs.

Honestly it really depends on the dogs.  But in most cases people that shoot usually run fewer dogs which from my expereince will result in less injuries during the baying process.  More dogs cause them to tighten up and get in each others way.  Also people that shoot usually have dogs that are loose baying dogs, that also results in less cuts.  Catching a hog can result in cuts that would not have happed by just baying, but on the other hand getting close enough for a shot in thick brush can result in a busted bay and dogs have to stop the hog again which can result in cuts that would not have otherwise occured.  So it goes both ways.

My opinion is this.....there are so many different ways of doing things with both methods, different kinds of dogs used in both methods, and different people with different levels of safety in mind..which you will find in both methods,it is almost imposible to say which method is safer for the bay dogs and have it apply to all situations.  Dogs get cut with both methods and sometimes die from those injuries.  Is using catch dogs safer than using bay dogs and a rifle? Absolutely not.  Is the opposite true? not necessarily.  I will say this, I expect 95% of the dogs I hunt with to die of old age and hunt them past ten years old.

I don't really see the need to have this conversaition to justify one way of doing things over another.  Both methods are valid and can be done safely.  Having to put a dog down from injuries recieved by a hog is no more cruel that having to put a dog down from hip displasia brought about by obesity from over feeding and irresponsible breeding.

Waylon

as we all know , hog doggin is a very dangerous sport ! from the time you drop the dogs till the time they are back to the kennel anything can and will happen. i feel that the desision made by the hunter ,durring he hunt can mean life or death for our dogs !  i always carry some back up for the dogs . when i come up on the bay i first assess the situation : big boar with big cutters (BANG) . others get a dog attached to there ear! i guess what im trying to say is use your better judgement , whatever you decide !!!!!!!!JMO  ;)

Good points made by all.I hunt alone most of the time.I have been shooting,rather than leading a catchdog for awhile.It is alot more enjoyable for me to shoot,than to lead a bulldog.I hunt because I love the dog work envolved.For me its also easier to shoot,rather than using a catchdog,and all that goes with that.Being by myself.Very few people are allowed to carry a gun with my dogs on the ground.My dogs are very gun broke,and have learned to wait on the gun.That kinda means they bay sorta loose,until I pull the trigger.They usually pile on after the shot,or roll out with another hog.I use a 44 mag Winchester Trapper.It will drop them where they stand,with a well placed shot.

i  have seen bullets fragment and  mess up a dog and i have seen dogs shot out right ,, if theres a gun its a .45 colt single shot  with slugs  or colt rounds  that i have hollowed out  myself  and ill get there up close and personal , but 90% of the time the cats have them caught  and its iether stick or tie....
  if theres a gun around my dogs its in my hand
        Dexter

Personally, I prefer bay-and-shoot.

But I also enjoy catch-and-stick/catch-and-tie. And while I've been on numerous hogs in Florida where shooting has worked just fine, SFboarbuster makes a really good point. I've also been in groups in Florida where the dogs put us on hogs in crazy thick palmetto brush where there was no way you could ever get a safe shot. In those situations you better have good CD or you're coming home empty handed.

Since there never seems to be any shortage of CD's, frankly, I'd rather someone else bring the CD. I don't like seeing dogs cut down in general, but I like it even less when it's one of my dogs, so I don't want my dogs catching, I want them to stop them, and then back up and bay.

I didn't start hunting until I was in my twenties, and I started with a bow. Picking up a bow -before- you ever pick up a firearm will teach you patience, and about learning to wait until the shot is right.  I didn't start doing dog work until several years later, and I stated bird hunting. Surrounded by people and dogs that you care about, and low flying quail, it will make you very cautious about when you pull the trigger, and when you just let it fly away.

A few years after that, I took a job doing outdoor and firearms education with the conservation dept. I got instructor level certifications for Hunter Ed, Bowhunter Ed, National Archery in the Schools Program, and NRA Range Safety Officer and began facilitating public/private/CCW/local/state/federal LE quals and tac scenarios at our dept owned ranges. In those years that I spent living and breathing Outdoor Ed and the civilian/LE shooting sports what did I learn? If someone likes to call themselves a gun or firearms "expert"... get low and run the other way, as fast as you can. The real experts are humble, are aware of how much they have yet to learn every day, and are painfully aware of just how "easy" it is to hurt yourself or hurt someone else. Needless to say, I won't let just anyone bird hunt over my dogs, and I won't let just anyone pig hunt over my dogs. I have to know that the shooter will approach the bay with skill and sobriety.

Beyond the mindset of the shooter, I want ammunition that does maximum damage internally, but stays in the head/body cavity more often than not. For this, my preference is Federal's Law-Enforcement-restricted 12ga Hydra-Shok Slugs.

Good points by all!

I think Wmwendler sums it up for us in a lot of ways and I can't necessarily disagree with him after considering others experiences and opinions posted here.
So many different things come in to play that maybe we cant base a decision on just our own experiences with our own dogs. Dogs and people are different everywhere you go.
The one thing I think we all agree on is the safety and common since aspect either way you chose to put a hog on the ground!
I appreciate most of all that no one is really knocking one or the other. Just stating their preference and opinions is all.
GOOD FORM FOLKS!


Great advice!!!
I'm not a firearm expert however, the ones like you describe here usually get their feelings hurt before me or someone else is through with them. Its necessary I assure you! >:D

 To clear something up- It takes a certain type of dog to be used for shooting. A gritty dog wont do it. I shoot over two of mine that are back and bay on anything over 75lb. And to add to WestTexasCurs statement- A dog I have was shot over many times. She will bay close, when she sees the gun go up she will back up while baying to give me the room to shoot. I feel 100% that if you have a pack of bay and shoot dogs you will get far less cuts. I am talking about dogs that were trained to be shot over not just dropping some dogs that arnt gun broke and going hunting. If I wantted ome dogs to shoot over 100% I would start them young and look for the loose baying dogs that have little to no grit and use no more then two at a time. I am not a great shot but common sense makes up for it.

The same type of dog will not be getting cut with a catch dog either ;)  Probably going to jinx myself here... I cannot remember the last time one of my bay dogs was cut.  As a rule, my bay dogs bay, and my catch dogs catch.  (Mandi's Lizzie dog is the exception, for some reason she likes a little pain).  It may help that we use two catch dogs, so even if a cur dog decides it wants to help out, they are caught on a hind leg, or an elbow. The hog is not able to get to them.

I see the merits in both ways of hunting, but I don't think it is possible to say one method of dispatching the hog (shooting vs catch and stick/tie) is safer for the bay dogs.

well i can say that i only hunt with three dogs unless i am with buddies in a joint hunt! My ybmc a redbone dog and a strickly lead in catch dog! when either of my hunt dogs bay up the other is very quick to arrive! and they will not catch until my lead in arrives. once my lead in does his thing both dogs will assist eachother in holding that hog. when i get there i call caught hog and my two hunt ogs will release but that catch dog is there till i break him off with a break stick and most of the time its not till i have tied the hog and the i will break the catch dog. I have gotten very few injuries to the hunt dogs and i havent seen a hog hit my catch dogs body yet through his vest!! JMO again!!

 I agree Chris. I just got the feeling that people were using their own dogs as examples. Well, if I took XYZ hunting and shot over him would it be more safe. If the dog gets cuts running two solid bulldogs then it is going to get cut shooting.

Everyone has there opinion, but like some said before we dont really let anyone we dont know or trust carry a gun.  We have been in some sticky situations where the catchdog was a mile away and we jumped a big boar in a deep ravine and the dogs were gettin cut up pretty good so we will shoot em, and as for sayin we, I dont even trust myself enough to shoot over our dogs so either my buddy does or my stepdad because they are confident marksman. But I would rather catch and tie than shoot, we pull alot of our hogs out alive, I trust our catch dogs really good when runnin up to leg a hog I know for sure they arent going to let go.  We have had a few dogs cut really bad but it seems after they are cut once they kinda learn there limits of a big hog and how close they can get.  Out of all of our dogs not one of them have been cut more than twice and we have been on lots of big hogs that could have done some damage. 

Both are good with the right type of dog. Not to upset anyone, Different people use terminology in different ways. Some people have bay dogs that I would consider running catch dogs.  I don't know if you have ever noticed at a bay event, someone will bring a pair of what they consider bay dogs that have to be pried off the hog every time. They might be great hog dogs but they are not bay dogs. I have had dogs that bay tight and had some that bay loose. One I heard the other day was a gritty bay dog. The dog would catch hogs under 125 lbs. I never used a bay dog to catch a hogs. If there is a good trainer out there please correct me. You can train or allow your bay dog to get involved in the catch. This is neither right or wrong, it depends on the number of dogs and how you like to hunt them. If you have a dog that tracks, bays and catches it is not a bay dog in my book. If you have 4 or 5 true bay dogs I have never had a problem shooting over them. If what some call a bay dog is tying on to a hog they are most likely going to get cut. If your dog bays then goes in after the catch dog, would you consider it a help dog or bay dog. I have had very few true bay dogs cut up real bad.  I trap or shoot most Of the hogs I catch now. I  allow very few people to bring guns when dogs are used. I don't think you can say one method is safer than the other, Old hunters will tell you a dogs safety depends on the person hunting them.

I totally agree that shooting over the dogs would be less dangerous for them, but i also think that it could end up being more dangerous for you as far as getting in close enough to the bay to shoot safely. The one time i have had to do it there was only two puppies baying a 250 pound sow in a willow head, every time i got close enough to shoot she would run me out, she about got me a couple of times. That situation could have been easily solved with a good CD.

On people danger,,, I have had far more close calls baying and shooting than with catch dogs. :D

Certain dogs will be better around guns.I try to gun break my pups at a young age.Shooting a 22 around them all the time.My pups learn to tree squirrels real young.They learn guns are good,and they get rewards after I shoot.Not all my pups will take to guns,some just never get used to them.But after awhile the ones that are really gun crazy make good dogs to shoot around.But I cant stress enough start them young,and give them rewards after you shoot.Works well for me.

Thanks for all the great responses guys. This discussion really highlights that each situation is unique, that different methods work for different people and different dogs in different environments. I still feel more comfortable with catch dogs, but that is what works for our dogs where we hunt. To each their own, I'm just glad we can all still hunt with dogs period!

hey julie, you know my opinion.  my catchdog is named trapper, winchester trapper.  it only barks when it has to and doesnt get kennels dirty.  although it is nice from time to time to kick out the big ugly dog and stick the hog.  as far as cuts, one of the worst hogs i brushgunned got 3 out of 4 dogs in less than 2 mins.  since we started using the catchdog, the only dog to get cut has been the catchdog. we've have had more cuts shooting over dogs than with the catchdog.  but to each his own.

cut the catch  dog loose and wait for it there he is he is caught is some one was to shoot my dog they would have to go to the er with the gun stuck well we all no were  and my foot next to it!!!!!!!

Both ways seem to have their dangers, the only difference is that shooting the hog means that you end up with a dead hog. I would rather catch and tie because there isn't always time to deal with a hog carcass. We always bring a gun just in case its needed, for instance... we had to shoot a hog one time when our catch dog overheated. We didn't want to waste precious time tieing it while our dog needed to get to water. To each his own.

 

I totally agree with you about shooting a hog that is caught.  But we are talking about shooting bayed hogs so there is no reason to stick any feet anywhere or to make those comments.  Anyone who shoots hogs that thier dogs bay would not shoot a hog that has been caught.  Why would you.  The hog is caught...just leg it and tie it.  If my dogs catch a hog and I get my hands on it, its gonna be tied until I decide to do something else with it.....no need to waste bullets.

As far as thick goes, I have said it before and will say it again there are thick woods everywhere not just Florida, or South Texas or East Texas.  Allot of times its thick and you have to get close for a shot most of my shots are from 15-40 feet away, sometimes just a few feet.  Thick woods won't keep a hog from getting shot if the dogs will keep it bayed.

Waylon

NEEDLESS TO SAY ITS GOING TO BE DANGEROUS EITHER WAY.  BULLETS DO WEIRD THINGS WHEN THEY ENTER THE FLESH!  THATS ONE THING PEOPLE DONT ACCOUNT FOR. NOT ALL BULLETS DO THE SAME THING. SO WHETHER YOU ARE USING A RIFLE OR  HANDGUN CARTRIDGES KNOW WHAT THEY WILL DO.  NOT ONLY THAT WHAT THE BULLET IT SELF IS DESIGNED TO DO UPON IMPACT.  WILL THE BULLET PASS THROUGH THE HOG? WILL THE BULLET EXPLODE?  OR IS IT DESIGNED TO TUMBLE? THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS KNOW WHAT YOUR BULLET WILL DO IN MOST SITUATIONS AND TAKE A GOOD SHOT.