EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

How does someone get there young dog to range out with out an older dog or is that the only way?

It's more bred in the dogs to range out  . But a older dog helps and mock hunts do too but just feed it tracks it either has what it takes or it dose not.  Some just take Time.

That ^


Sonny

ITs mostly genetics in my opinion, BUT, heres a helpful suggestion:

You need to have a honey hole of sorts, a place where you can consistently find hogs and hog sign, if they stand and fight instead of running like crazy, that's real helpful. Now, take a pup or two at a time. too many and they'll just play and set themselves back in the long run. find smoking hot hog sign, a wallow, a rub, under a feeder, and walk that pup into it, turn him loose only when you know he smells it and wants to find the hog. lettem go, lettem find the hog and lettem bay it for a durn long while. do this often, and do it for a good long time, till you take the young dog to a craphole spot with no sign and it consistently leaves out exited looking for sign.

I have an 11 year old Catahoula gyp that came out of Sherry Bando baypen stock.  Not bred to range out all- I dont think. 

She was raised and trained with hounds and she can range out with the best of the curs (and she dont open on track).

Im not going to say it is always bred in them, sometimes it can be learned....if you are having a problem getting a pup to range out, try hunting htem with a hound that opens now and then.

Open hound will get them out little further even better if they have bayed before

From experience I'm pretty sure it's bred in them

take the pup to the woods and turn it loose in a good spot and stay for 20-30 minutes, ignore the pup and see if he/she rolls out...it is mostly a genetic trait to range or hang out...

hunt slow so the dogs can be thorough about checking the area...moving too fast will shorten the range on most dogs and they learn to run hotter tracks...hunting at a slower pace and stopping to let the dogs work out a track and constantly reading the dogs and working with them...and the dogs will range further, take colder tracks and will be more thorough...and they will also know once they take a track and run the hog you will be following...works for one dog or a pack...just good ole dog handling goes a long ways...

I know it's not possible for everyone, but I see much more hunt in pups I let run loose around the house until they are 6 8 months. Especially if you have a yard dog that likes to hunt that they can learn from. My grown yard dogs hunt anything that moves. Lol I think it just gives them a head start as opposed to just letting them sit in a pen or on a chain. JMO I also believe its bred in them, they have it or they don't in my experience but letting them run loose helps if you can. 

Heres an article i wrote about this, originally appeared in the August 2013 issue of Tuskers magazine


Seems like a lot of folks are talking about range these days, and all too often I see range confused with bottom. So lets start by getting our terms in order. Range is how far a dog will travel looking for sign of a critter to give chase. Bottom is how long the dog will chase that deer. Lol. Not the same thing. If you want to see a dog's range, it's pretty easy, take the dog to a place where you know there are no hogs, not even a week old track. The distance that dog hunts, looking for sign, is its range. Some dogs won't leave your feet no matter, and some dogs will be in the next county, running, who knows if they're hunting, but they are running!
     Everyone wants that long range dog... 'til they get him and wear out boots and truck tires chasing him all over god's green earth! Everyone's got a different idea of what long range means. To the guy whose boot toe smells like a dog's rear end, long range might be 100 yards. For me when I say long range, I am talking about a dog that gets out hunting 1000 plus yards. I call medium range 300 - 500 yds, and close range is 100 yds or so. As for what is best, well that depends on how you hunt and the terrain, property size, how gritty your dogs are, and so on. I prefer a medium range dog, but I have yet to own one, seems the medium range dogs always end up getting talked into going long range by the older dogs. Tracy and I hunt long range dogs for the most part, and they are loose baying dogs. I have seen long range rough dogs, but with the high price of dog food, I'll pass! Besides, where you gonna put the dog box when the whole bed of the truck is full of staple guns?
     The next big question I hear all the time is, "How do I get my dog to range out?" Again, a lot of the time this is a confusion of terms, and what is really meant is "How do I get my dog to hunt?" If you want your dog to range out you first have to start with a dog that has the drive to hunt. Once you have a dog that wants to hunt it is just a matter of teaching the dog to hunt the way you want him to. But you can't put hunt in a dog, so there is no sense is banging your head against a wall.  1. Don't start the dog too young. You don't want a pup out there just running, trying to keep up, and this often leads to babbling. 2. If you have a long range dog already you can kennel this new dog with the dog that hunts the way you like. They'll be running buddies. 3. Keep your mouth shut! When you are in the woods don't pay the dog ANY attention if its hanging around making sure a hog don't ambush you. I try my best to not even make eye contact with the dog. With a new dog

I will tolerate this hanging around for 5 or 6 hunts. I call them free hunts. 4. You've give the dog some free hunts to hang around, you've ignored him and grudgingly accepted the slack your huntin' buddy gave you. Now it's time to get this dog out of your sight and get your buddy's mouth shut.  This works best in the spring when the sap is up, you get you a fresh green sappling like grandma whooped you with and you brush the fleas off the dogs backside with it. Don't try to kill the dog, just let him know you are less than pleased with his effort. This may seem obvious, but I've seen it, don't call the dogs name, or pet him and then get him with the sappling! Lol. If the dog has any sense he will get away from the big ugly man with the stick. He may just sulk in the brush, barely out of sight, that's fine, leave him be. Everything is going according to plan if you can't see him. We usually give the dogs a "GET IN THERE" when we cast, so as the dog is running away from you give him a command that he will learn means get out of my sight and find a hog. I guess it don't really matter what you say, you could tell em to "GET OFF THEIR TWINKLE TOES". After one or two "treatments" all you usually have to do is hit your leg with the sappling. 5. You need to cast your dogs! So many times I see guys just open dog box doors and let dogs pile out. One goes over here to empty out, one marks the tire of the truck, one is still asleep in the box, two are over here jump starting your breeding program, and one went hunting but the other dogs didn't notice. When you take dogs out of the box and snap them, you have control. You can take those 3 dogs that know how to hunt and point them to the creek bottom where you think there are hogs and cast them. This gets all the dogs going at once, hopefully in the same direction, and the likelihood of that new dog going with them is greatly improved. Number 6,7, and 8 are patience. Patience means giving the dog a chance to learn, but it don't mean wasting time and dog food. Dogs are like people, (just slightly more admirable). Not everyone can be good at everything with practice. I could practice dancing with the best coach for the rest of my life and still look like I was getting stung by bees.
     So I hope if anyone out there is wanting their dog to range out this has helped a bit. I'm no expert, these are just a few of the tricks that were taught to me, and a few that I learned by ruining what would have otherwise been a great dog in more capable hands.

excellent post ED...

I see lots of folks talk about range and I agree with you...quite a few folks confuse range with bottom or stick...

A medium range dog with a good nose is about perfect in my eyes as well...I don't give a dog much chance to range out...either they are born with it or not...I want a dog that does it naturally...breeding for natural ability is where it's at...

you could pay me 10 million dollars to paint the best picture and I will never do it...but a brother of mine can paint one on his lunch break in about 15 or 20 minutes just killing time...he took after my father in that department and I didn't...it is natural and a dog that is born with it just excels in it...


long range dogs...I have had them to and they can find lots of hogs pretty quick and they go straight from the dog box to the chain and all are pointed in the right direction and they are turned out last...sometimes have to let them run along side wheeler on leash to cut some of the edge off...hunting for dogs instead of hogs sucks for me...

medium range dogs that hunt with me is the way I like my dogs...these dogs will keep ranging out if we don't move out or stop too long...but as long as we are idling along they are checking in on their way to the other side...

some folks don't mind investing lots of time in a dog...but I see it as a trait that will be passed along...I don't have much room for dogs so I want dogs that are all around for the traits I like as well as for breeding...and improving the bloodline...at least when breeding my own I know what I have...no rose colored glasses here...and the right range is very important to me...

Like you I give the pup a short while to pick up on range and I use every trick I know to make him/her range...

another confusion that so many have is thinking the dog is ranging/hunting when in fact the dog is a good me too dog...take that dog alone and those same folks will wonder why ole fido is having a bad day...  ???

Good read guys I don't like to rangy of a dog 2 to 6 is where I like mine. Bottom is more important to me but some times it can be overwhelming cuz we hunt on foot most of the time. One of my dogs will go till he bays period this can be two miles or twenty but with my rough dogs if we stay close 1/2 mile or so we usely can stop em fast after that swore feet will fallow 

Reuben, I get what you're saying about breeding. I have had great results with dogs picked up off the road, accidental breeding  and mutts from non hunting stock, actually better luck than with so called high nerd hog dogs. In the nature vrs nurture debate I land on nurture side. I think WHAT a man does with a dog has a bigger influence on making a dog than  WHAT the dog is. Not trying to stir pot just discuss

I respect that...but I can't nurture a  basset hound to win the big race against a well bred greyhound that is nurtured to race...a dog that is born to range, born to wind and track, born to know where to find range that has the right equipment with the right nurturing/training will make a better dog in my opinion...but that long post you posted is really a very good one and I about agree with all you wrote...

Lol! Good point... I stay away from bassetts and greyhounds

This may have already been suggested but, I always put my young puppies (less than 9 months old) in kennels with my bush burners. Obviously I separate them at feeding times.  I also make sure my younger dogs get in the dog box with a rangy dog.  I just try to make them buddies and 9-10 times it seems to work.  The younger dogs just want to go with the older dogs, then one day you look up and the younger dogs are further than the older ones. 

Ed barns I feel the same on the mutts and high bred dogs I think a lot of people get to wraped up in breeding and genetics. A dog is a living creature does what it wants to do we can only guid it like a flowing river.                Groundskeeper those are some good methods to go by I have seen it help more times than not just whish I could learn a way to teach bottom lol

Very good thread!


Sonny

Judge, I agree about bottom and I have no answer for that.   It's all about heart and desire at the point!

That's where good genetics come in... ;)

I personally don't think you can breed or teach heart!

I don't think you can breed much of any of it good breeding don't hurt but if it was just that easy we would all have much better dogs jmo

I agree with not teaching heart...a pup is born with it...and the chances of having a higher percentage of pups born that way in a litter of pups is through selection...if both parents have it and all 4 grandparents have it then why wouldn't most of the pups have it?

If you could TRAIN range, bottom, and heart like alot of people claim, we would all have better dogs too...
But you dont see that happening... Why?

i've been at draft horse sales and they run a lil old knotty colt through that i woulldnt have thought bring 100 dollars .

they read the papers and he brings 5000 ! why ? because his daddy was a world champion pullin horse , and known for passing that heart and desire on to his get .

yes heart is in the genetics , just like everything else .

T will banks I do beleave you can train most things to a certain point by rep but at the same time dogs aren't computer programs where you can order up what you want lol. And I think good dogs come from all kinds of dogs bred every kind of way. like I said if it was just up to breeding everyone would have better dogs I think dogs out come is 25% breeding 25% handler 50% the dog I think we have less to do with it than we think the DEA uses mutts to find drugs and we think we have to have the best bred dog to find hogs just a thought from a simple man

A animal bred to pull weight is a lot differnt than a dog bred to search out and bay game but I get what your saying it really just a roll of the dice but some dice are loaded better

Good post Ed, I believe if a dog is born with it, a good dog handler can bring it out!!

Its genetics... hunt, bottom and baying ability. I have pups and have seen pups that have not been handled or "trained" at all have more hunt and bottom than most "trained" older dogs. If a dog needs trained it dont need my dog feed and time. How many wild boars have you tracked for miles and once you found it ran it for a few hours until it bays? Until YOU can do that you are not training chit. All you can do is put them on hogs the rest is genetics. Either they have it or they dont. ;) my two pennies on tha matter.

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I bet if you named off what the dogs On your yard has in them, I bet 95% will be breeds that have been bred for hunting/catching...   Why are non hunting breeds not used if 50% is from want to in the dog... I'm sure there are schitzus that want to be like jagds or dalmati

Dern post got cut off... Continued below lol

Dalmatians that want to run and tree like hounds... But they aren't BRED for it... You may find one or two but you gonna go through A LOT of em!!!!

 While breeding doesn't guaranty good dogs, it does up your odds considerably. If a man has high standards and no kennel blindness, he is going to get a good many culls from any breeding program. A handler can enhance whats there and make a good dog better but he can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. With that being said, I have seen good dogs come from some unlikely breedings and places but it is very doubtfull they will produce much.

Peachcreek I understanding what you are saying. My friend got a high dollar high bred wright blood dog from wright himself and a pup from my red dog Ladner x Ben Jordan blood nothing special just average dogs that pup walks all over the better bred dog just saying. I have a trash bred mutt that will go miles has a nose for big boars he ain't perfect but I would put him against any dog win or lose just a dog of chance no one wanted I got him off the side of the hwy from a young lady. You can ask any one that has hunted with me. If I could afford the best bred dog I would still prefer the odd balls I guess that's just my style

T will banks my best dog until 4 yrs ago was a heeler x rot of corse we use the breeds that have been hunted for two hundred yrs but I wasn't saying not out of hunting stock just dogs out of our preferd breeds not so much  a certain line

There is a difference between bred for papers/money and bred for working...  I would consider Ben Jordan's dogs to be MUCH better bred than Randy's...   

Bet you won't see Ben breeding just any ol cur dog because he can train it or hope the dog has want to...

Well that's two of us lol

Atleast we finally agreed on something..  ;D

Lol t willbanks I agree with most of what you are saying but I would never admit it. I have learned over many yrs that what you think should sometime won't and what shouldn't will and here is something else I have much respect for you as a younger man most guys on here in most any diss get mad and start talking smack you didn't willingness to lissen to others opion is a gift most won't entertain a single thought out side there own

Well I guess you could say my willingness to listen pushed me to observe how certain people were breeding dogs which led to my conclusion that it is Genetics and not Training... But thank you...  ;D :D

Willbanks let me ask you a ? On your dogs do you have a certain line of dogs or several and what lines if you don't mind me asking I have several my self I have fl cur cat Ladner Jordan Kemmer east tx line and some mutts and crosses of my own liking

Everything I have now is pretty much pups out of a few east Texas lines...  Lost my older dogs to pseudo rabies so pretty much starting over... You still gotta go through the bad ones, but when you get one of them that is good, you really got something...

I wouldn't own a high dollar wright dog for several reasons...but I would buy the right ladner pup from the right breeder because those dogs are bred to hunt...

100 percent agree with your post...a well bred pup that has it in them can see the first hog in a pen at 2 years old and bay it like an experienced hog dog/bay dog...and take that dog to the woods and he is as good as his siblings that have done it for over a year in no time flat...it is because of selective breeding...breed it for several generations from related dogs and yes...you can get an very high percentage of good dogs...you just can't have kennel blindness and don't make excuses for the dogs...for me there is 2 kinds of hog dogs...those that are good hog dogs and culls...no in between...and of the good hog dogs not all are worthy of making breeding stock...we should breed a higher percentage of pups that make it with each generation until a high number of good pups are produced...it we maintain a high standard..

Ruben not knocking anything you said but you said the key word if they have it in them I had pups that would bay like champs at 12 weeks old pulling hair I didn't cull any all but one is in working homes and he is a house pet did I plan plan a long line of performers no just breed average dogs. But with out guys being extreme I guess no one would have what we have I guess

You have to start with a dog that has a chance.  Once you have that, you still have to know what you are doing!  Blood dont bay hogs.  I can make ANY dog range the way i want them to if i have that pup from weening age, no whispering involved, anyone can do it.  A capable dog in the hands of a trainer that dont know what he is doing is going to be WORTHLESS!  Where a capable trainer can take a 'trash' dog and make a hogdog out of it.  Bottom is another topic. but yeah, ill go out on a limb here and say that bottom is about 50% training as well, or more accurately - your actions around your dogs can effect their bottom. Like someone said earlier, dogs are not computers.  Like kids, we do our best, but they are living breathing things with a brain and make choices.

Ed barns right on

Ed, enlighten us on how you would train the range and bottom on a dog?

You say "you have to start with a dog that has a change"... to me that means the genetics are there.

Take for example, a long line of short range, no bottom dogs... a line that's been bred 20-30 plus years. One that's never even produced a medium range dog and none that would ever stick with a runner more than an hour or so. How would you train one of those to be long range and run one 6 or more hours? I'm talking about one that will do it solo, not running with a pack.

I agree 100% that you can screw up a well bred dog, seen it time and time again.

One guys thought of good genetics may not be what some one else would call good at the end of the day we hunt the best dogs we can buy produce or train I say if a fella is happy with what he has than that would classify them as good genetics or good trained what have ya I could care less if they been bred by the same guy for 30 yrs don't mean there good or bad just means he has had them 30 yrs you could come hunt where I do and not catch any thing or I could go where you hunt and catch ten vise versa any dog can do it on any day just the better ones do it more often

Judge, I agree with you 100%... I'm not talking about good vs bad, or my dogs are better than your dogs.

The training vs genetics discussions have always interested me. I'm a 100% believer in the breeding/genetics behind a dog... you want a long range, cold nosed, endless bottom type dog, you don't get it from crossing two short range, hot nosed, no bottom type dogs.

I would love to know the secret of getting an average dog to go.  I always figured it was genetics.  I am used to carrying a pup hunting about five or six times.  If he or she ain't left and went hunting by then they gotta live somewhere else.

Yes sir mike I agree that two short range no bottom dogs on average won't produce a long range big bottom dog but if I took one of said pups gave to a guy that has longer range big bottom dog and spent the time with it on average I would say it would out perform its previous standards not to say it would do as good as the big bottom but better than it was going to be with the short range no bottom dogs just a thought and here is another thought from a simple man rangy does not mean better hunt the dog is just further away from you that is what my grand paw told me he ran dogs his entire life

This has been a good thread

i think bottom is bred in dogs maybe 10% to do with the trainer like if you keep driving up on young dogs calling them out of a short race they will eventually learn to do that on their own, but traiing one to stay on a track i dont think is no trainign involved its genetics, a bulldog has a big heart but their not going to run a 6 hour race they are not physically able just like a poodle is not either, dogs are bred for different purposes by different types of people and people like diffrent types of genitics in dogs, it is possible to pick a mutt up off the side of the road and it make a good dog but odds are against you on that but i have hunted with some mixed dogs over the years that have ran and bayed hogs but why waist all that dog food on a prospect you know nothing about where it come from when its to many other good dogs out there to get a pup out of. lifes to short to feed a number 2eater and dog food is to high

Bo Pugh the poodle is one of the oldest hunting dogs traced back to Germany refined in the 15th century the word poodle means water dog. Reveread as outstanding gun dog and retriever in the 16th century was the primary water dog in England till the spaniel there blood lines have been breed to the highest level money which we can even understand I bet one out of ten would make a hog dog

That dog may range and stick with the good dogs, but you put him by himself and for some reason he is short range with no bottom...
Thats what ive seen in alot of the crappier dogs we used to hunt... I guess they just didnt get learnt right...  ;D

On page 1 I laid out how I get a dog to range far. One thing I didn't mention thst I see a lot- when you are wanting a young dog to go- you cannot be the center of his universe. I make sure I don't have a real connection to a dog until it's hunting the way I want. I see range as an issue of confidence, independence and pack order.  I think ALL dogs have it in them to hunt a half deep if that's what you want.
Bottom is more on the dog, I didn't say you could train for bottom, I said your actions can affect it! Usually in a bad way.
I have seen so many crossed up stray dogs make outstanding hog dogs that I am forced to the nurture side of the debate. Of course, like rueben pointed out you can't nurture a Bassett into being faster.

On page 1 I laid out how I get a dog to range far. One thing I didn't mention thst I see a lot- when you are wanting a young dog to go- you cannot be the center of his universe. I make sure I don't have a real connection to a dog until it's hunting the way I want. I see range as an issue of confidence, independence and pack order.  I think ALL dogs have it in them to hunt a half deep if that's what you want.
Bottom is more on the dog, I didn't say you could train for bottom, I said your actions can affect it! Usually in a bad way.
I have seen so many crossed up stray dogs make outstanding hog dogs that I am forced to the nurture side of the debate. Of course, like rueben pointed out you can't nurture a Bassett into being faster.

some folks confuse a good me too dog with a good hog dog...put that no bottom, not much range to speak of dog with a hog dog that ranges out and finds hogs pretty quick...that has a lot of bottom and the lesser dog steps up and might go step for step with the hog dog...that is until it is hunting alone...

to find out what kind of hog dog you have hunt it alone...and if you feel confident that you will shoot a hog over the dog then you probably have a good dog...if it finds, tracks and sticks with a runner through thick and thin and brings the hog to bay then you have a good dog...I write these three sentences to describe what a hog dog is rather than try and write a book on what a good hog dog should be...

good dog handling just makes for a better dog...

some crossbreds make excellent dogs...

some mutts make excellent dogs...

but for me the best hog dog is one that is bred right so that it is the all around dog...one that can hunt as well as any dog that produces hogs and also looks good doing it...and it is a dog that reproduces a high number of hog dogs when bred to the right gyp...why not have it all when we can...

Here is a ? To the on going debate. How many of y'all would say longer range dogs find more than say a medium range dog. And far as big bottom north of ten miles 8 hrs where can you hunt those dogs

That anwser depends on where you hunt. I hunt a lot in northern Oklahoma so I want a dog hussling and covering a lot of ground. If there were more hogs where I hunted I would prefer a shorter range dog, long range dogs are kind of a pain! It's easy to get centered but different circumstances take different dogs

JudgePeel

I don't care for long range dogs but I want a dog that will have plenty of stick once it jumps the hog...a good medium range dog that circles to my left leaving out towards 11:30 and circling left and back and checking in from the 6:30 side and then looping to the right side, exactly the opposite from the left loop...and covering about 3 or 4 hundred yards to my left and the same to my right...keeps covering that way as long as I am moving at a moderate pace...these dogs hunt with me...if I stop they will hunt/loop further out and that is ok with me but is one reason I try not to stop...if I don't see them for a while they are either bayed somewhere or running a hog...

I can't see me giving up bottom to keep my dogs from going far...but I would rather breed catchier type dogs that will stop one at the first opportunity rather than keep running a hog...I don't care for loose bay dogs even if it were proven that they produce more pork...I like gritty dogs that are not afraid to put some teeth on a big boar...

I remember my stomach tightening up in knots and wondering if I would get my dogs back, get them run over on the road or shot because of their long bottom, get eaten by an alligator or stolen etc...etc...the range was right but once they winded one or picked up a colder track it was on...and that was the part that worried me...the distance they might travel...I still like that type of dog but with a little more stopping power...my dogs right know have some pitbull bred in...and the female pup I gave now for breeding if she makes the grade is 1/2 parker cur 1/2 APBT...

I gotcha Reuben I like short medium range don't give a heck dogs that will catch or try to catch I got one big bottom dog it works good for me cuz if the rough dogs don't stop em they will fall back after a mile or so and it lets him bay up then we show up with the land sharks to make em pay. That's why I bred Jordan into my dogs to put little more bottom but keep the grit I don't like the pit crossed into curs in my opion those are unstable crosses although I have seen some good ones I just prefer rough curs just breed the roughest you can and they will do the job most of mine are very rough

I prefer a medium range dog myself that loops, covers the country around you, checks in and goes back out or load and move on.

Bottom is what I want in a dog. You don't necessarily have to have big country to hunt dogs with a lot of bottom. I've run hogs for hours on end a smaller places more times then I can remember... round and round and round. But, I've also had them blow through big places and leave the country... that's where training them with the tone on the shock collars comes in handy.

What an awesome thread. Haven't had a more practical thread posted in a while. Read it completely through a few thoughts

First- I've screwed up my share of dogs trying to learn how they learn

Two- unless you know how that particular dog learns you can't teach em anything. You haveta stop thinking like a human and try it from the dogs perspective

Third- the reason I hunt dogs with lines I'm familiar with, is so that I can get dogs that for the most part handle similarly. There's some personality types that I just can't seem to break through. I've not culled a few different dogs just to try and figure out why it wasn't working. It was a problem I wanted to solve. It drove me nuts that this dog wasn't getting what I was trying to teach it. So I fall somewhere in the middle on this debate. Even dogs bred similarly have different styles and learning habits and moods. But if I'm starting with the same lines I feel like I can get more familiar with it so I can then learn how to communicate what I want to that dog.

But if the dog don't have the tools, it just don't. I cannot run a 4.4 40 yard dash...

All this breeding and trying to create or recreate the perfect dog with blood lines and whatknot is hard on my simple mind. I take what I can get. I work with it and get everything I can out of it. I don't run long range dogs. Medium at best for me. Now if long range was what I wanted i would put the dogs that weren't ranging close with those that do and try to find a pair that would buddy up. I would let the long range dog teach the other to keep going. If the shorter ranged dog didn't pick it up I move on or hunt the dog in the fashion it hunts. I can't afford to go thru dogs so I try hard to perfect my eye when sizing up a dog. It also don't hurt to have low standards. :)


Shotgun
Arkansas

Shotgun wg good stuff bubba