EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I saw the following comment on an advert for a 4 month old pup for sale and thought I'd add my own commentary. I broke it off into a different thread because my comments are of a general nature regarding all pups/dogs, not the specific ad that the comment originated.

"It is not a cheap dog but based on my experiences with dogos they have bred, if someone decides this is what they want, just know that you will be getting your moneys worth, every penny of it."

When you buy a pup, you are buying the blood....nothing more, nothing less. Now you can up the odds of the pup turning out by making sure they are off proven working stock, linebred, ect. But, there are no guarantees when it comes to pups turning out...there are culls in every litter.

 I think no matter what, a pup is always a gamble.

I would rather get a pup from a reputable breeder who has had success with similar hunting styles to my own on similar game.  If it comes from a long line of proven stock, I truely believe it will turn on dependent upon the training program. ;) 

I'd rather give it a go myself, than to buy someone else's cull.  If they part with it, it did not fill their definition of a hog dog 100%.  Otherwise they would still be feeding it.  There are exceptions, but this is the norm.  JMO

I have raised border collie cattle dogs for years! I have tried to breed the traits I wanted in them hard bite, trainable, walkup power, and keep herding instinct with brains. In saying all of this if I got 40% of a litter to do this I thought I was successful. It seems to me that good hunting dogs would not be any differant, But so many times I hear people say all the pups in the last litter were great hunters. In my opinion a pup is a gamble no matter the parents. I like to buy a pup at an older age so I can have an idea if it has what I'm looking for.

Any animal is a gamble.  Weather it be a dog, cat, horse, etc.

True, but it IS possible to stack your odds.

IMHO,

Even though you can stack the odds in your favor, any breeder who claims 100% of their puppies will make should set higher expectations of their progeny.

Steve

If 40% was your target mark, you have low standards in my opinion.  Not bad mouthing, just stating my opinion on an open forum.  Your 40 % may lead the breed for all I know.

au contraire!

I don't think a % of progeny was his goal, the quality of said progeny was.

As such, if he only had a 40% turn out, I think that he set pretty high standards. More over, he was honest enough to evaluate them accurately rather than being breed or bloodline blind.

If more people judged their progeny as strictly, and the bottom 50% of every litter were considered culls, we would have a lot better performing dogs on average!

Steve

Id be happy with 40%.  If your only goal is for the dogs to bay, then yeah 40% is no good. 
If you want them to bay well, start early, range far, have a cold nose, closed mouth, certain build, tough pads, loads of bottom, etc.  Then 40% is pretty good. 
 My opinion

As far as the original subject.  I think you also have to figure in what your getting for the money.  If the breeder tests breeding stock for things like hip dysplasia and elbows and eyes and hearing.  The healthier the breeding stock, the better chances of having healthy pups.  That is worth something.

In general you are right about a pup being a gamble. And no one is putting out 100% perfect litters. The reason I was saying this pup would most likely turn out is because that particular breeder does a lot of tests to determine the best placement for their pups, and due to all their experience in the breed, they have been pretty dead on at being able to look at a litter of young pups and picking out the ones that look like they have what it takes to be a good hunting dog. Plus if the pup was a cull, I have faith in this breeder that they will do whatever it takes to make it right by both parties.  Those were the specific reasons for my comments.

I don't know about ya'll but I don't believe in a good bloodline. Know matter what you have somewhere in that so called good bloodline theres going to be a few turn out bad everytime. In the last two weeks we saved 10 dogs from our local dog pound, with a little work 9 dogs out of 10 slammed the hog everytime. We hunt them in the woods and they do just as good as my high dollar dogs, in my mind it doesn't matter what you have just as long as the dog wants to do it. I've seen ppl beat dogs trying to get them to pay attention to a hog but the dog just didn't have the "want" in him. As long as they want to do it and you work with them almost any dog can be successful.

caney creek hogdoggers you must live out in the country where a higher precentage of the pound dogs are actually someones lost working dogs, or where the dogs are more likely to be from some kind of working stock.  I can tell you right now that you aren't going to a city dog pound and getting 9 out 10 dogs to work a hog and hunt out good.

I AGREE FOR THE MOST PART WITH U COLTON, ALOT HAS TO DO WITH THE TRAINER TOO BUT I KNOW EV1 KNOWES THAT.... AND HOGHUNTERDFW U ARE PROBABLY SOMEWHAT RIGHT ON THAT ONE, BUT I THINK ITS REAL GR8 PEOPLE SAVE DOGS OUT OF THE POUND AND MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THEM

There's a BIG difference in a catch dog (or should I just say a dog that will catch), and a hunting dog.
I've worked VERY few pits that I couldn't get to catch in a matter of minutes.

That's not what this post is about.

Raise some various hunting dog pups, then you'll understand good bloodlines.

nope all the dogs come from the geto where they have been chained all there lives, they cut them loose when they can't feed them anymore or there old lady keeps getting on them, we don't have a county pound just a city one, therefore its almost impossible for a lost working dog to end up there, he would have to travel a good ways. People around here catch them before they make it there and call the owners or put up flyiers. In small towns everyone knows each other so we know pretty much know who's dog is who's!!

bryant, I've got 3 pups that I raised off the streets, 2 of them will find there own hog, the other one will bay the socks off one in the pen and is a great help dog!!!

Based of this one thread alone, I will dip out leaving one word, "Perception".

Caney creek hog dogger i am pretty new this but i don't think you could have said it any better then that.  i have a buddy that pulled a mut out of fenced yard in town, and he is now one of his top hog dogs.  we have no idea what it is, but don't really care.  I think any dog will hunt with the right drive and training, but like i said i am new to the owning a dog part so my opinion means nothing. 

One mans junk is another mans treasure........... Perception of what a good dog is, well now you got another 4 page thread to go on and on and on, with.

You guys that think that a mutt can find, bay and catch hogs is a good dog well more power to you. Adventually you will figure out it takes a dog with the traits to complete the jobs to be called a hog dog.

A friend of mine has  dog that he picked up, smart little dog with a good nose will do anything his owner asks him to do, finds a hog, bays a hog, bloodtrails and recovers wounded animals, stupid pet tricks and every thing else. However when the going gets tough, at the end of the day he is a good  "dog" but he does not have what it takes to stay with it when the going gets tough like a good bred cur. If weekends in the woods with your buddies chasing a few hogs here and there, is all you ask of a dog then you will be satisfied with just a dog. But if you want a dog to be more and stay when the going gets tough, and the hogs are hard to find, hard o stop, and run like crazy, you are gonna need a little more "bloodline" to get the job done. When you dog has to be smart enough to know when to follow his nose on the ground and when to pick it up and run with the wind, cause the hog is leaving out,m you are gonna need some bloodlines and when you get tired of walking/directing and looking for the sign that the dog could have been looking for on its own, well I guess you can figure out what I am fixing to finish that with too.

If you are talking about getting 10 pitbulls from the pound and 9 of the 10 slammed the hog well then they are just pit bulls and nothing exceptional about that. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

That is nice of you to give 10 dogs a chance to have a job, I will give you credit there. Thanks for doing so, but it is not the same as what is being discussed.

Who ever said they were all pits? 2 of them are the rest are just crossed up cur dogs!!!

I said "IF"

I am a believer in bloodlines, but I also have seen dogs with no pedigree do the things mentioned in uglydog's post. I have also seen some well bred dogs that could'nt find a hog in a baypen, being bred or thought of highly just because of the pedigree. I stick with an old saying that is "Good dogs are where you find them". I do think however that running dogs from stock that has been selectively bred for traits that you are looking for gives you a better chance of getting good dogs or a so called "Ace" dog and also increases your chances of dogs being able to reproduce the traits that make them a true hog dog. "Stacking the odds" I will also add that most of the time, where I have seen someone breed a good scatterbred dog, it was not able to reproduce itself  JMO

Well it doesn't matter what they where, I was just saying bloodline doesn't mean everything, you where saying something bout after the hunts over a dog is just a dog unless its a good bloodline? I use to coon hunt a bunch and went to trials on a regular basis, when there's judges walking with you giving you points on how well your dog performs thats were bloodline kicks in, we are hog hunting not coon hunting, so after the hunt if you caught some pigs with your dogs that you've trained what more could you ask for. Who cares about performance in hog hunting, long as they get in there and find/catch hogs and create memories with your hunting buddys I think thats all there is to it. I'm not trying to stir anything up or piss anyone off, just giving my opinion!!!

 What is a good dog? Every answer is going to be differant. This age old question will never be answered.


Sorry.

 Richard E- Want s dog to hunt 800yards min and stay on a hog till the end.
When that dogs stops the hog he/she must bay and not get too gritty.

 I want a dog to hunt 400-500 MAX and back up and bay when they stop the hog. Richard's culls(too short) would be my TOP dog. His sh it is my treasure.

 Bryant/Steve,
  I agreee. You want to stack the odds in your favor but I think even with that it is still a gamble b/c no litter is going to throw 100% good dogs. (a good dog to me anyways).

 I think alot of people havent had the pleasure to hunt behind GOOD dogs. Anyone can go pick up a few dogs and find a hog sometimes. I did it for a while. I am now tring to get good dogs to hunt behind. Been a long road and I still dont see the end in sight. I dont want dogs that will sometimes find hogs. I want the ones that will hunt their as s off and find me that hog.

 Just like the others have said above me- Alot of dogs will find and bay a hog. That doesnt make them a hog dog. A good bloodline will help put the odds in your favor but................Look at this way. How many Hall of Famer sport athletes have kids following in their footsteps, NOT MANY.


 

If this is your opinion....please don't ever breed any hogdogs.

 :o

I have no words......

Steve

   Performance in hog hunting is finding hogs. So I dont get what you are saying. A bloondline doesnt make a dog but it helps alot. Remind me to never buy a pup from you.

i think what he meant was more like he is doin it to have fun and that the dogs (in his eyes) dont have to be perfect just as long as they do what he took them to do, some are just more serious into it than others, some do it as fun and some do it as fun/work, so calm down guys try not to look at things so literally and some things can be takin the wrong way! just sayin i think yall are bein a lil too hard on him about this

FACT # 1: some pund dogs make great hunting dogs, thats probably why they are in the pound in the first place due to them driving their owners crazy, just like certain german shepards are pain in the butt pets but make great cop dogs

Fact # 2: a real line breeding program will increse your percentage of produceing certain desireable traits (more so than throwing good dog to good dog) This is true and has been done for years with mostly cows, but horses, etc. dogs are no different

This seems to be particularly true and more important with hunting/strike dogs vs catch dogs

I dont doubt that my pit from the pund or american bulldog from de and joe will catch every bit as good as my thousand dollar dogo, but the fact is that my dogo from 5 generations of dogo's on both sides having high prey drive, solid catch dogs, smart easy to handle and good with children, no hip or hearing problems,  scissor bite , etc. etc. can hurt my odds of getting more of the same and being able to reproduce that! She is only 4 mo. old and attacking hogs through the fence.

again i am hog dog owner "pup," but in my expereince of being around people who have owned and bread hog dogs for a long time isn't it possible to pay 500 bucks for that bloodline (i.e. weatherfords ben) that is suppose to be one of the best and on the same day pay 100 bucks for some backyard bread pup, and the cheaper less sought out pup end up being a better dog all around?  I am saying the same owner, same training, same hunting style, and everything.  i am not saying it happens everyday, but don't you more experienced hunters agree that yes it can and does happen?  i do believe performance is what hog hunting is about, but the question is can an all around "good" performaning dog come from the less sought breaders.  

Boarwild, it does happen once in awhile. Here is the the difference you go through 5-10 of those backyard bred dogs, spend thousands of dollars and several years time raising and working that pup to only be dissapointed 3-4 years invested in each dog. What is that worth to you? how much money are you gonna keep spending before you "bet" your money/time on better odds?

I have tried alot of different things, over a long, long time frame, yes the experience and knowledge I have gained is priceless along this long journey. The best part is all the folks I have managed to meet along this path.

I have enjoyed alot of hunts with people from all over the country, and watched many types of hunting dogs and styles.

This is proven fact, once you establish what hunting style works best for you, as an individual then ou start seeking that type of dog to work that type of style. NOW, you can try raising one to work that way, sometimes it turns out most times it don't,  Its like the three bears story, you try this one and then that one and maybe after many, many dogs, you will find one that fits, now trying to put together 4-5 that way, well again you are either rich, in denial, or have many years invested. However, if you find what you like and start with that is your baseline and research dogs that are consistent the way  you want them and have several generations that are all the same way, you got a pretty good chance of raising a pup that  will also fit that pattern.
For example a guy (this is a lot of guys) breed their best two dogs and advertise how great the parents are. Those two dogs may also be good, but not similar in hunting style or patterns and traits. Such as one may be long range trailing loose baying & the other maybe also a good dog but winds and hunts closer and rough, So what do the pups turn out like? Well just because one looks like one of the parents does not mean it will be like that parent. Your guess is as good as the next guys, so you will have to wait and see does it take after momma? Daddy? Or mixture of the two? Or neither? You will have two years invested minimum before you can honestly answer that question.  There a free or cheap pup can be a guessing gamble, how much do you have invested in the dog, much more than going with a pup that cost you $100-$200 more from an experienced dog person that has years of experience reproducing dogs that will almost fit the exact description of the parents, grandparents and great grandparents. Why? Because that person has put in the time in studying, proving, done the trial and error for years before you. So don’t you think that is worth a couple hundred bucks extra? The odds are on your side, that you are not throwing you money out the window. That is what you are paying for, to save yourself the time and money. A lot of folks that have been down this road have enough confidence in there dogs thay will want to keep up with the dog and progress to assure they are working out like they had planned, if not they want  to know because they want to  continually improve their line.
The difference is you will have a lot more fun and enjoy your sport many times over when the dogs consistently produce hogs for you to catch, So when you have a pack that you put your money where mind is, then it is worth paying a little more for someone else research, time involved that saves you the trouble, and puts your weekends of catching and being productive, rather than second guessing the dogs you feed. That is ALL THE DIFFERENCE than risking buying a pup or pivcking one up off the side of  the road or at the pound

well put.  thanks for your response. 

krystal just described my dog buying experience to a T.  i paid quite a bit of money up front for some dogs and 2 of the 6 dogs turned out ok.  Just OK.  i could've took that money bought 2 dogs for the same amount and had some GREAT dogs and saved myself the extra food and general health care costs. 

Lesson Learned.  and NOT going down that road again. 

I say everybody get rid of there dogs and go BUY one of Circle C  SUPER DOGS that he is going to breed then we will all have an equal dog  end of story!! lol

:D :D :D
says the guy with some good dogs...lmao

I say we all cull all of our backyard experiments and stick with the original bloodline. The wolf!!

Anyone on here that read and is smart enough to understand uglydogs great post on line breeding and want to get some solid weatherford ben curs that produce consistant 800yd dogs with good gritt and bottom end email curdogcox@yahoo.com I have no benefit  from telling yall this, John Wayne Ross himself is on Bobs waiting list! (thats who registers curs here in Texas) And I can guarantee if you get one of the rare pups that dont turn out you can breed it and his or her pups will throw better dogs than the top dog on your yard used for scatter breeding.  :o

i need a 200-300 yard dog........i can't do 800 yards.   :o