EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

What I see a lot, experience, and see missued so many times are PAPERS.
Papers on a dog tells you from whom he came from and whence they came from. They are like maps that tell you how that dog came about and how YOU can make more like them (really just as close as you can, there can never be the same dog).
But instead I've seen more often than not people that say these ignorant things.
"Papers don't make the dog."
"Hogs/dogs can't read papers."
"These pups for sale for X amount of money with papers and this much less money without papers."
"I have pups for sale with UKC/ADBA/PKC/AKC/NALC (etc.)" when asked what Bloodline the dog is most of the time they name off a jumbled up mess of fancy names OR worse, "idk they are just registered.".

Ignorance!
Paper doesn't make the dog, no you idiot, his sire and dam did that part. The papers just show you how your animal is bred (repeating myself).
Papers that tell you how the dog is made up tells you just that! What the dog is MADE UP OF!
Hogs and dogs can't read papers. No F***ing duh. Apparently, you can't either.
People that sell puppies for MORE or LESS with or without papers are idiots too. Most of the time...
If you onew what your dogs genetic structure was, the papers wouldn't change the price of the dog, THE BLOOD makes the dog the same price.
People that say "idk they are just registered" are about the same ignorance level as the "papers don't make the dogs" people.
If you don't know how your dog is bred AND you have their papers... Your not reading them. I don't mean Read them I mean READ AND UNDERSTAND them. Why is your dog so awesome? Is it because 2 tight bred families have come together? Are they 3/4 one family and a 1/4 out of another? Is your dog scatter bred?
What's the percentage of successful litter mates? Are they line bred, in-bred, or maybe even have a scratch of different breed in them?
Once you've read and re-read your papers, do you see similar names pop up all the time? Do you know WHY?!

I could go on and on but what I'm stressing is... Don't be ignorant with papers.
Those that don't believe in papers, fine. Stay out of them. Not like you can read them anyways.
Those that like them but aren't intelligent to know what they are REALLY for, get schooled by someone that does.
If you look at how an animal is bred you get slightly closer on how to go about getting another one. ALSO! Did you know that different BLOODLINES of dogs (even in the same breed or cross breeds) have different temperments and work ethics.
That'd be mighty nice to know, huh?
What bloodline suits you better?
Anyways... Thoughts?
Not meant for an argument but maybe there are some people out there with this knowledge that agree with me on the high level of ignorance.

Papers are a pretty useful tool when breeding dogs. Some dogs do not have papers, that's fine, but the ones that do, it never hurts to take a look and make sure they are from seperate lines, or if they are similar lines.

   I'm a firm believer in pedigree's weather from an established organization or an old mans word of what is what and whom  is  whom out of  and so on and so forth .  when I get the hankerin for a new dog or new breed  I will do diligent research of the dogs ancestry .  like the old saying goes  '' the further you can look back the further you can see '' 

That's a good saying Halfbreed, I like it.

I think having the pedigree on a dog is very useful. If a dog is good, I'd sure like to know his recipe. As Cody mentioned, in certain breeds, certain lines of dogs compliment each other and can heighten your chances for a good prospect. Certain lines are known for certain characteristics that you may or may not be looking for in a dog, another reason why knowing the pedigree is useful.  I have dogs registered through a registry, and I also have a couple with hand written pedigrees from seasoned dog men. Heck even folks who are generations deep in their own breeding program tend to keep written logs.

I wouldnt know good papers from bad would know the dogs names ether. If they mean something to you than there important. If not than that don't mean you don't know dogs or what a good dog is I write all my stuff what it is and where it came from just so I can keep up but I could care less if it works and produces than good if it don't it don't papers won't change or correct any of that or help your breeding out. But a good dog will. I will probly get name called for that but I don't care good dogs will come up the ranks papers just sit in the desk drawer lol. I ain't against them just don't do nothing for me if the papers say there good then by golly they best be or you got some expensive TP lol.

Oh here is a factoid my dogs are awesome cuz there mine and I shed blood sweat and tears with them. We go to battle with pride self confidence and the hunger for the game that's what makes champions. Now all that won't make cull into Cezar but the right dog given the chance won't need a ped that glows in the dark

Papers... May they be with a registration or hand written.
They are maps of your dog. If you don't care to read them or learn about the dogs of their history. Then that is fine. If you don't care about your dog producing good or not... Then why breed them?
Your dogs are not any less awesome than what you believe they are to be.

Judge, No one denies that you or your dogs don't "hunger" for the game or shed those precious tears. That's not at all what I'm talking about.
Your dogs are good because A: they want to be (can't lead a horse to water and make him drink) B: because they want it, you have good guidance in their training C: exposing them to said Game

Their papers are for you to understand what makes them good (yes their history does make them good), and how they were formed from what dogs. Even if ol' Roy was bred to Daisy and made a whole litter of bad asses, you still know where they came from!
If they don't have papers, no room for understanding!
If an old man hands you a hand written pedigree, tells you about every dog in that pedigree so YOU can know what line of dogs your Dog comes from. That's some valuable information.
If you toss it aside For your Glorified whatever it is that you do without careing for what the old hard working dog man has done. Good for you...

I don't believe Cody was insinuating that if a dog doesn't have papers, they're a piece of shat. I didn't get that from her post at all. I do think that she was making a point of what a valuable tool a dogs pedigree CAN be.  Knowing a dogs lineage, strong traits from a certain line, can definitely help ones breeding program.

for a pedigree to have real value one must know what type of hunting dog each and every dog was/is in that pedigree...

pedigrees are great but the problem I see is the fact that too many people do not have the same standards when it comes to breeding better dogs...it is either outcrossing too often which will not give you uniformity and that is scatter breeding at best...however, if one is not interested in high percentages of high quality dogs produced then one can get a pack going pretty quick doing it that way...but reproducing their selves will not come in high percentages...

the other issue that I have already mentioned about not everyone having the same standards is a problem embedded in the pedigree as well...

when we see more than a few top dogs in the pedigree especially when it is a few that repeat 2 or 3 times then there is a good chance one will get a few pups of the same caliber and type...

pedigrees are great don't get me wrong...but those are the first thoughts that enter my mind when I look at a pedigree...

Then you know what pedigrees are for and how to read them.
Bravo!

Most people who study pedigrees follow a certain breed. Whether it is coon dogs, bear dogs, bird dogs, whatever, they know what & who have the better dogs or champions in the breed & breed around them to suit their criteria. Also whether line breeding, inbreeding, or breeding unrelated dogs there have been great dogs that have been reproduced & also a bunch of culls. Papers will tell you which dogs are reproducing the better dogs in every breed & most people will breed around them.
  I have always had a saying similar to Halfbreeds, a dog without a history, does not have much of a future.
  Also, as bad as this sounds, papers are only as good as the man who is signing them. There have been a lot of falsified papers.

I agree...when I was breeding my own dogs I only bred dogs which I considered to be the very best...when one can only keep 6 or 7 grown dogs and 4 or 5 pups...then space becomes so limited that there is no room for error...all the dogs need to bring all they can offer to the table...the goal should be for all the dogs to look right...hunt right....act right...and they should fit perfectly in the pedigree for breeding purposes as well...

having said...there are too many different ideas as to what a good dog should be...but I reckon that is what makes the world go round...

a dog from a great pedigree (line of dogs) that hunts right is far more valuable than a great scatter bred dog if you are also thinking of breeding a few litters...

   what we need to do is remove the word papers and just use pedigree . most on here with dogs without '' papers '' still know a lot of the dogs pedigree   [ even judge   lol  ]  papers and pedigree or lineage  are no different it's just a trail of blood sweat and tears from the former breeders behind the dogs . papers be it a registry , a bunch of names wrote on a paper sack or from the memory are no different . just like you know who your grandpa and grandma are [ well most of you ] it's not from a permanent registry but in the back of an old book your mother has held onto  . one of the best I ever had on my yard I knew squat about and have regretted it ever since and I tried like hell to find out because I would have hocked the farm and bought her sire and dame and grand sire and a couple of aunts .

The one thing predominant in the APBT world is false papers thru the years. You can't find a game dog out there today with 100% true papers. The only ones that you know for sure are the ones you bred yourself. Those men competing with there dogs were not gonna give you the recipe, they might give you a bowl of soup but you didn't get the recipe. I can't speak for other breeds but I know this to be true.

Yes papers are a little heavily used as far as good or bad.
Pedigrees is better for the discussion of good dogs.
As far as the papers goes I'm hoping others would realize there is more to them than just money or status or the dogs can't read, blah blah blah.

False papers are always disheartening! I know that APBTs have false papers on many... I also know some Catahoula dogs that have some bad papers... I know personally Plummer's Dotty Rambo. My husband owned her and culled her but still her name lived on... Weird.
Anyways...
Glad we have some intelligent people that know how to read papers and understand the importance of being able to read and understand the dog's pedigree. Paper or not.

Lol Cody'scatchdog you can't take everything I say to serous I like to cut up. But I really really don't see the big deal on papers I mean if you like to read up on all the peds and learn all you can on them that's great. I do believe half of the papers in the game dogs and hunting dogs are bs living off a dog or dogs legend. They scratch them papers to benefit there status and there wallet. I do also think the better the papers the higher the expectation are for the dog after all it's only a dog. A wise old man (my pee paw) told me not all dogs are good just like some people ain't good ether but got some reason we hang on to them

Yes Judge, I agree with you on it just being a dog after all. Also, the higher bred the animal is the more you expect from their pups. I agree to that also.
But The discussion is generalized on how important it is to understand registration. Not for people to say I don't know their bloodline, they are just registered. Or someone to holler around that the papers don't make the dog.
The paper doesn't no, but knowing the bloodline made the dog.
As far as looking at a dog's bloodline and expecting the offspring to be what their made of... I'd much rather have that to look forward to. Everyone has let downs in breeding dogs.
My husband bred 2 Catahoulas together once. Entire litter was crap. Out of 2 A-Team dogs.
Some how... My husband's friend talked him into breeding the same dogs back together... The second litter, all made good to Great dogs. Weird how that happens.
But! That second litter also produced good dogs that are still present in his dog's pedigrees to this day.

Cody the biggest thing I have learned is that you read peds and under stand what is behind but there is no way to tell what's in front of you but your eyes. IMO most guys that breed a ton of dogs are looking for something they don't have or trying to sale pups not much in between if a fella only breeds so often he probly has something he don't want others to have. I have had many a dog most I could tell what this and that was but I could tell what the dog was. People lie to much even your best buddy and the guy that he knows lol

To some it matters to others it doesn't.  If you r breeding yes. If u r just using not so much. If the dogs r good enough and breed enough you can just go to the source. Too each his own.  People get bent out of shape about everything. Do what works for u!

The point of breeding dogs is to make just as good of dogs as you need together. If not better dogs.
What you see in front of you is a result of that hard work and dedication you did to make the dog. May it be good or bad.
At least you can narrow down your results by knowing the dogs bloodline within the pedigree. Even knowing the dogs in that pedigree personally is better.
Breeders that use their dogs know it better than people that just breed dogs for money.
Breeders that work their own dogs, few and far between.

But like I've said 4-5 times now... I'm not questioning anyone's dog.
I'm calling out the ignorant people that misuse or do not understand Papers.
Papers in what they are really supposed to be for. Hand written or other wise.

Yep yep peds are just a ledger of breedings some think there gold some look at them and say that's fine. No biggie really. It's good to be passionate for thing you believe in and extra knowledge never hurst ether. I just don't drink the koolaide as they say

I like a dog with a good pedigree, or a good set of papers, but Ive also seen non-papered dogs that will out hunt,  out find , out stop and out catch some of the papered dogs I've had dealings with. I'm a fan of reading up on dogs and trying to trace the blood back as far as I can with any available information. I've spent countless hours on the phone with John Wayne Ross just soaking up some good , solid information. That man can do some talking,  and to be honest I'm not much of a talker and don't really like to have the phone to my head that long. But he's the type of fella that I don't mind listening to because he's not full of b.s. and knows his dogs. And lineage. To me papers are like recipe's , and I'd sure as hell like to have popcorn sutton's moonshine recipe. .......       just saying. 

I have seen papered dogs that couldn't smell their own butt much less a track and these dogs were used for breeding to make better hunting dogs...

I knew a papered dog that folks were high on because he was a very good bay pen dog but as a hunting dog he probably missed about ~80 percent of the hogs in the woods...he was a great me too dog because he would follow a good lead dog to hell and back if he needed too do so...but on his own it was a hit or miss and most of the time you about had to put him on top of a hog so he could find one...yet years later on this site I saw where some folks said they had grand pups out of ole so and so... :)

years ago someone wrote a column in the full cry magazine who also promoted a line and breed of dogs as hog and cow dogs...but he liked to run a walker dog in the pack when running hogs... ???

Pedigrees...I like to look at them and then store them in case I want to look at them again 10 years down the road...I won't spend money registering dogs...

but I do know that most of the time the right papers on the right dog can bring an excess of $40,000 but that same dog would probably only bring you $500 to $2,000 for the same dog without papers...

what really gets me is those folks that will pay the big money for that dog who then hires someone else to trial the dog...but they make sure to get their name on the cover of the magazines and websites...and no credit is given to the real dog person who bred that dog...once that dog is done they buy another dog and repeat the process...not much of a challenge when  buying the best...no need to train just campaign...

Did you know there are different bloodlines of dogs that people have bred generation over generation that makes them different and unique?
Certain people have bred Cur dogs to do nothing but win bay competition, almost breeding the hunt clean out of them.
Some bloodlines of Curs also do nothing but bay and circle cattle.
Hunting bloodlines... Etc.
Some of the dogs in each bloodline can do them all, depending on the individual.
No surprise goes to the dog that is a Bay pen champion but doesn't hunt a lick. Maybe he was bred that way, maybe he was one in a whole litter?
Sure is nice to study pedigrees and know what family of dogs your buying and investing in.
If you don't care then there is no room to complain.

right now there is another thread on a walker...and they have her pedigree posted...besides having the right look to her she has an awesome pedigree so the potential is there to reproduce some of the greats that are in her pedigree...by the sounds of it she is on her way as well...I am not a walker man but I sure do like them and has seen a few that were top notch hunting dogs...I do recognize quite a few of the dogs in her pedigree such as Finley River, Lippers Stylish, Sackett, Bawling Banjo etc...those names were well known way back and are still well known today...there are other champions scattered throughout the pedigree as well so that tells me she brings quite a bit of value to the table...she is a good looking gyp...she has some good hunt to her...and she has a very good pedigree to back it up...

this is a good example of a good pedigree and why they can be very valuable...

When I look at that pedigree I am reading a story that is buried in that pedigree...

NITECH...a hunting dog...a dog that ranges out quick...prefers a hotter track....locates and has the meat rather quickly...that I do like
sure there are extremes but the idea behind words NITECH is a good one...

Exactly Rueben.
You know a lot more about Walkers than I do!

I had no idea of how that walker was bred prior to getting her papers in. The friend that told me to come get her and her sister did not know either. I got rid of the sister after about 5 months which put them at 10 months. I did not like her and do not think she will ever make the dog June is. I gave her to cole simply because he needed a dog and I am unable to work her the way she needs now. He had no idea of her breeding either. Papers are great and do give a man a general idea. They are best when u don't know the man or dogs that produced ur pup. If u have seen the generations leading to and hunted with them papers don't mean much. Growing up I knew nothing of papers. Simply because all the dogs we ran were swapped and bred by dog men in the area. Heck most of the dogs were line bred without knowing because the breeding dogs often came from the same place the pups went to make the next round.


Shotgun
Arkansas

Papers are great, but that Walker was bred to be a coondog, not a hogdog. Nite champions are a dime a dozen & I have seen plenty that could not tree their own coon. A pretty slick handler that knows the rules can make a nt. ch. dog. Grand nite Ch. are different & so are the PKC money ch. That is when they bring out the big guns.
  Shotgun, what did you not like about her sister, just curious. the fact that she made a hog dog is to her credit & not necessarily due to her pedigree which is coon breeding. Her sister for all we know might make a coon dog.

Cajun...I have seen plenty of coon bred dogs that have made better hog dogs than the average hog dog...I have seen plenty of mt curs that are as good as a dog can get for hog that were coon dog bred...

now that I am getting back in I couldn't find a decent line of mt cur so I have a Pocahontas bred plott in my yard right now ready to drop some pups...I went that route on account she is a proven hog dog out of mostly bear dogs...I don't need more than 1/2 plott...

There is no doubt you plotts are bred for hog and bear and I know you catch a lot of hog with them...and it makes perfect since to buy a pup of that type of breeding when the opportunity is there...

if you look at the walkers pedigree it is filled with GRNITECH...I was talking Nitech in general...there are lots of negatives in the night hunts as well as in many other dog sporting events...for me the best way is to breed your own...second best way is to buy from a long line of hunting dogs that are proven...

 

What did you breed the plott to Ruben?

I hear you Rueban. I have seen good hounds in all breeds but my point was the dog was bred for coon hunting & I was not knocking her at all. Im just saying you have a much better chance of getting big game dogs out of big game stock. The fact that you cannot find the Mtn. curs you like proves this out as most of them are bred for squirrel & coon. Robert Kemmer's line off of Golden Nugget were good big game dogs.
  When I first started with Plotts, I thought they were the sorriest breed around. Most of the Plotts I was trying were coon dog bred & I could not find one that would stay bayed by itself. Even went through a lot of bear bred plots before I found what I wanted & they don't suit me all the time.lol
  Hope you have good luck with your 1/2 plots. Sometimes it is easier to get hogdogs by crossbreeding.

Thanks Cajun...

The sire is mostly gold nugget bred kemmer with a touch of pitbull...

Cajun...I used to run gold nugget with texas smoke mt cur...big fast hunting dogs y hat could shut one down...I liked both lines but the texas smoke dogs were pretty rough...

If the pups do good I will breed brother sister or to their uncle...not looking to develop a long line of dogs just breeding to get a few hog dogs that dont require a catch dog to catch hogs...

I don't know what it was about her sister but I just didn't like her. The sister bayed first when I put them in a pen. The sister would go on out a ways as a pup. But I just could not make myself like her.


Shotgun
Arkansas

I've thought about this for awhile, and I've decided I need to start my own line of papers called the RCDCMA (Registered Curr Dog Cross Mutt Association) the way I like to cross breed.  Heck, who wouldn't want a registered 1/2 Catahoula, 1/4 BMC, 1/4 pit?   ;D

Papers are only as good and true as the person doing the breeding and the registry honoring them. Yes, a ped is good way to see the past, present and potential future of the dogs. Iv got 3 papered dogs but iv gotten to where them papers are as usefull to the hunt of a dog, as a roll of used toilet paper. In order to trust the accuracy of the papers in hand, u have to trust the breeder and registry, which is why if i hav a litter out of papered dogs, i trade them for dog food or $50

Normal comments.
Take the time to read what The whole post was about.
If you cross bred dogs, Wrote down their lineages, knew the dogs it took to make them... Then you've made calculated breedings and know the pedigree.
Or you just threw stuff together and got a good dog.
Papers are a tool, not a weapon.
Yes you have to trust good reliable people and even then the dog's not promised to be all he is bred to be.
That goes for any animal or human.

   lol  just to defend my beloved walkers to you hog hunters remember this , A TREE DOG WILL BAY , BUT A BAY DOG WONT TREE   .   those ol coon bred dogs will handle anything on the ground and handle it well if it wont climb .

Normal comments huh?? Iv been reading all the posts, but it seems ur more bout pushing ur they r the best thing above sliced bread and anyone who doesnt think that exact way, their opinoin is useless as tits on a boar hog. Ur just thumping the pedigree bible and the thumping has gotten deafening.

Halfbreed...I would use a tree dog any day before I would use a cow dog on hogs...at least I know my chances of getting a hunting dog is greater...just past experience talking

the best cowdogs make the best hogdogs . however what most people call a cowdog i would not feed !

jdt...I agree with that...

The ole walker dog my been breed to be a coon dog,but right now she is a hog dog that needs no help from start to finish,today she made me smile again.ive been around alot of dogs in my life.this one here is a joy to hunt behind.at 18 months can only get better,papers dont meen nothing to me.

Good Cattle dogs and tree dogs are about as hard to find as a good hog dog.
Different roles and requirements obviously but I love a good cattle dog.
As far as good cattle dogs go, a nasty border collie is my fav. Maybe 3/4 border collie and 1/4 pit.
The half pits and half border collies are pretty useful but sometimes they can get a little more rank.

Not as experienced with Tree dogs but I think it's cool to watch.
I really like big Game hounds.

All good comments and points, I've enjoyed this post.