EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Ok guys I'm lookin for some true game dogs. Wondering if old family red nose is still around. Interested in that and chinamen. Anyone know any breeders?

There are a bunch of guys and gals on here that have what your looking for (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/07/649ddecbd185f227b904c8017b669387.jpg)


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Good lookin dog. How's it bred?

I would respectfully attempt to clarify that "old family red nose" is not actually game bred at this point in the 21st century.  The term "old family red nose" is a term that was used around the turn of the 20th century to describe a group/family/line of game bred bull & terriers brought to the US from mainly Irish immigrants.  These dogs were apparently red/red nose and were known for their gameness.  The term "old family" was basically referring to a family of Irish import red/red nose dogs from the "old country".  The term was used "appropriately" through the first part of the 20th century, up through the 1950's, 60's and even into the 70's.  There were a handful of breeders who could trace their dogs back to heavily influenced "old family red nose" stock.  Breeders such as Jake Wilder, Bob Hemphill, Bob Wallace and Bill Lightner.  These breeders often swapped dogs with each other, traded, bred to each others dogs, etc.  Their dogs were mostly red/red nose/ red toenails/ etc.  As the 1960's and 70's approached, the term "old family red nose" was really not even being used anymore by gamedog men.  The dogs at that point were just referred to by the name of their respective breeders because they were so far removed from actual OLD FAMILY dogs by that time, example: Wallace dogs, Hemphill dogs, Lightner dogs etc.  I feel I am uniquely qualified to verify this, because my mentor (the man who schooled me) was a protégé of Bob Wallace.  Bob Wallace had two protégé young dogmen who he mentored during the 1950's-60's.  One was my mentor /partner / friend of 30 years, and the other was Richard Stratton (that's right, the same Richard Stratton who writes all the books, as Mr Stratton was stationed at Jacksonville Air Force Base in Little Rock).  When these men died, the reputation of their dogs died with them.  Bob Wallace was from Little Rock, ARK and was a gameness fanatic.  But you won't see a dog anywhere in 2015 that has Wallace blood running through it, and it most certainly will not be "gamebred".  The same goes for Lightner, Hemphill, etc.  While these dogs are beautiful animals, and will represent the traditional "look" of the old family red nose, they in all likelihood will not be game-bred.  This is not to step on any toes, but most folks do not understand the meaning of the term "game-bred".  I believe it would be a pretty fair assessment to argue that an "old family red nose" dog had not been seen, used, or bred by any SERIOUS GAMEDOG MAN since probably the 1980's.  They are just not game-bred anymore, and they haven't been for decades.  Now what does game-bred mean?  Just because a bulldog had some game ancestors somewhere back in the 6th generation, this does not make them gamebred.  Gameness is recessive, and it must be tested for, selected for, and held onto religiously.  There are breeders out there who breed, raise, and catch with big red/red nose dogs.  And they make great hog dogs in most cases, because they are NOT GAMEBRED.  A lot of times, people will just call them "old family red nose" simply to describe any red/red nose pitbull.  The truth, most all lines of pitbulls throw red nosed dogs, depending on what they are crossed with.  And to go back far enough in a pedigree to find some dogs that were actually "old family red nose", you would have to be able to trace that back to the 1960's.   

As for Chinaman blood.  Chinaman was sired by Woods Trouble and out of Abernathy's Molly.  Chinaman was basically an Eli bred dog, for the most part.  A lot of people don't know that.  Was Chinaman a great producer?  Was he a piece of crap? Definitely NOT.  He was a very good dog.  His most famous son (I guess) was Garner's Frisco.  I had a son of Frisco X Hollingsworth Polly.  Decent dog, but nothing to write home about.  Frisco threw a fairly high percentage of curs, but threw some good dogs also.  That is the most difficult part of the equation that most folks have trouble understanding.  It's not the bloodline that makes the dog good . . . it's the dog that makes the bloodline good.  Chinaman blood, Eli blood, Jeep blood, or Old Family blood . . . its not the blood you need, it's a GOOD DOG from the bloodline that's important.  Most Chinaman blood you see now will be down from Frisco.  Nothing wrong with Chinaman blood, it's just WHICH CHINAMAN dog specifically is the blood coming from.  The blood running through the dogs veins from years back will not make the dog a good dog.  One dog that plays a major role in the Chinaman blood that's out there and available to the public now is Garner's Ch. Simba.  Simba quit (curred out) against GR CH Spanky. And then he was taken home and bred to lots of females and lots of puppies were sold. 

I guess the moral of the story is, a bloodline is only as good as the man who buys its feeds and culls it. 

                     

He got chinaman and carver blood in him the exacts not sure he is owned by my cuzin


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Slim, most of what you wrote was true but the "Original old Family dogs" were not red. They come in different colors but it all morphed into Old family reds. And while it's true you won't find many game Old family red red nose dogs. There are a few guys keepin them. But there are a few guys who have kept some relatively game Am Staffs too.

I'll post a ped when Jack gets his site working, it's down right now. But I have a dog with chinaman through frisco and one without frisco. That's one is through earl jr.

Redriverslim I wish that statement could be posted worldwide for everyone to see, I get so sick of hearing folks say this ole dog is so and so bred, it ain't the pedigree that's makes the dog,its the production, the pedigree just gives you an idea of what to expect.

The best way to have a clear view of a dog is to expect nothing if it could it would and if it won't it probably never will


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Back in the mid 80's Frisco was given to a fellow to raise and he was a school custodian so had summers off. He spent a couple weeks at my house with that Frisco. The dog was so wacked I never even took a pic cause I didn't think he would live to see a yr. old. He was 8 mo. and was flat backed and long and so shy you would have to corner him in the back yard to catch him after turning him out. I was absolutely shocked to see down the road that he was this highly sought after stud. 

Funny how things turn out hype has a lot to do with the legends of these dogs. There are some that are better that never was on paper or owned by a guy with a big reputation just doing his own thing the Bulldogs we use for catch dog are not the turn of the century type dogs in some ways that's good and some bad game bred only means that line was gamey for pitting nothing else 


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Well said Slim!
Wayoutwest, it's funny you say that about that Frisco dog because a lot of the so called "frisco" dogs are extremely shy. A lot of folks don't believe that shyness is heriditary. A lot of them will also eat you up when you put your hands on them too.

I never could get a solid answer on this dog, Iv been told chinaman, but never could get prove it, but would love to have another one like him.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/11/c95f1adfd2e9412eb4a3e48c330370fa.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/11/9675ba1851589ec9e7d492204918cc7e.jpg)

Anybody got anything like this, pm me please. I would love to have another. He was 90-100lbs of catching power and was as lovable as a stuffed teddy bear for a child.


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Dang Charles that dog was a monster. 90-100lbs thats a huge pit! I would have like to see him work, had to be impressive.

this is one of the best write ups written in a long time about the game bred dogs...it applies for all breeds in general...

there used to be a Doberman bred in the 1950's that was a world class show dog....and 50 years later folks were still advertising that line of dogs when selling pups...I reckon it is a good sales pitch if nothing else...

I like a good looking dog whether it is a pit or a poodle...I remember back in the 1980's the dog pound was full of pitbulls...and one could go get one and more than likely it would make a good catch dog...my logic tells me the reason for that more than likely is because they were not that far removed from the fighting pits...now thirty years later these dogs are totally watered down and some make look exceptional but they will not catch...the last 2 I raised from pups and they were about as good looking as 75 pounds pitbulls should look but neither would catch...

The red red nose dog was out of weight pulling dogs and he had all the right equipment to do the job...I wouldn't mind having another just like him that could do a good job as a catch dog...I like them agile, quick and fast, with some good wind to them...

Reuben, I'm glad you brought up the Dobermans.  Reuben is referring to a famous Doberman from the 1950's named "Borong The Warlock".  This was a show Doberman that was raised by a man named Henry Frampton and his wife.  They were heavily involved in the showing of Dobermans in the 40's and 50's.  Warlock became a show champion, and quite famous as a sire of show quality conformation Dobermans.  Warlock was a STANDARD SIZED Doberman that was very friendly with people and other dogs.  Then somewhere in the 1970's the legend of the Warlock Doberman resurfaced and the name "Warlock" was forever to be associated with a GIANT DOBERMAN, vicious to the core, the reincarnation of Satan himself.  These new "Warlock" Dobermans were said to breath fire, and have red glowing eyes.  100 lbs, 150 lbs, 200 lbs, . . . and the urban legend grows.  This myth of the Warlock Doberman is said to have been created by a woman dog peddler in the Pasadena, TX area (but that is not confirmed).  Whatever the case may be, there is no arguing that the urban legend myth of the "Warlock" Doberman is alive and well in 2015.  Just do a google search, or pick up any newspaper or thrifty nickel and you will see some booger eating moron with . . . . "Warlock Dobermans For Sale".  Hell, there are two ads for Warlock Dobermans in my local paper right now.  Call up any of these fools and ask them what is a Warlock Doberman and then just get ready to laugh your ass off.  99% of them will have never even heard of "Borong the Warlock" which was the mild mannered, standard sized family Doberman from 60 years ago that has no true connection to the garbage they are peddling.  However, you are guaranteed to hear them explain how the Warlock is the most vicious of all the Dobermans, often weighing 200 lbs, with teeth the size of railroad spikes, and fire spewing from their nostrils, a stomp down man killer of the highest order, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, and kill an African lion and then eat it, etc. etc. etc. 

Now the reason I tell the story of Warlock is because a lot of the myths and legends that surrounded this dog can be directly related to Pitbulls in SO MANY WAYS.  First, let me say that I have been a hog hunter and have had some pretty good hog dogs, but I will be the first to admit that there are tons of good dog men on this forum that know far more about hog hunting than I do.  And I will be the first one to acknowledge their greater experience.  However, when it comes to gamedogs, it will be hard to find anyone on this board that knows more than I do.  There are 1/2 dozen knowledgeable gamedog men on this board, and I know who they are. 

When it comes to pitbulls . . . here are the most common and most misunderstood myths/urban legends.  Any of you new hunters out there who are looking for catch dogs, raising catch dogs, buying a catch dog . . . here is the truth.  Maybe this will help you.

1)  A pitbull does not "LOCK".  There is no such thing as lockjaw. 

2) Red Nose is NOT a bloodline.  Its the color of the dogs nose and it means absolutely NOTHING other than the pigmentation, that's it.  It does not signify quality or lack thereof.

3) Blue Nose is NOT a bloodline.  See myth #2.  Blue pits are nothing more than a diluted pigmentation of what a dog's natural hair color would be.  It's a genetic abnormality that must be selected for to keep the color blue, as nature will always revert back to what is natural law.  Blue is not a true correct color for an American Pitbull Terrier.  A blue pitbull will NEVER be a gamebred bulldog.  Reason: no gamedog breeder would ever put the blue color into his line, and no true gamedog breeder would ever breed for an exotic color in the first place.  But blue dogs often make some of the best catchdogs.

4) Gator Pit is NOT a bloodline.  This falls under the "Warlock Doberman" rule.  Somewhere along the way, the term Gator Pit became the "Warlock Doberman" of Pitbulls.  Now I have been around pitbulls my whole life, having owned so many 100's of them that couldn't count them.  And I have yet to find any serious bulldog man who understands what a "gator pit" is.  Now there was Crenshaw's Ch Gator, there was Lloyd's Ch Gator, there was Plumber's Alligator, but it seems that the guys who always have the Gator Pits for sale have never heard of these dogs.  Read Warlock Story above.

5) Gator Mouth Pit (see myth #4).  This is the mysterious Gator Pit with the word "mouth" inserted.  This moronic term is meant to imply that the pitbull has a bite so strong that it is like the bite of an alligator.  Just DUMB.

6) Just saying the combination of the words . . "Boudreaux / Chinaman" . . in the same sentence does not signify quality. 

7) Real gamedogs do not have cropped ears.  Now this is not to say that there is not the rare exception, but for the most part, when you go to look at a man's bulldogs and they all have cropped ears, this usually would indicate that they are probably not gamebred.  Why is this?  Gamedog men would never spend the money or the trouble to crop a dogs ears that may just get culled later.  Cropped ears on bulldogs look kinda cool to some people, but that's about all their is to it.  The urban legend of the cropped eared pitbull says that the cropped ears prevents the other dog from holding on to them in a contest.  This is total garbage logic.  Its a myth

8) Gamedog breeders do not feed gunpowder to make the dogs mean.  Nor do they feed them baby kittens, or hook jumper cables to their testicals, or any other similar "National Enquirer" type sensationalized media hype that gets put out there.

9)  Pitbulls do not develop a taste for blood.  This is equal to believing in vampires.   

10) When a man tells you how his bulldogs are bred, ask him to explain how.  In other words, if he says he's got Boudreaux/Chinaman bred pups for sale, ask him to prove it.  Tell him to show you the papers. They don't have to be registration papers, but any serious gamedog man will at least have handwritten records of his breedings.  Also, when he says he has Boudreaux pups, ask him which specific Boudreaux dogs or which specific Chinaman dogs, etc.  If he can't tell you the name of the individual dogs and who bred them, what they've done, what they've produced, etc. . . then their is a good chance the dogs are probably not even bred that way. 

All pitbulls have the potential to make outstanding hog catch dogs.  Its usually the non-gamebred ones that turn out to be the best catch dogs in the highest percentages.  I am just trying to clarify some myths associated with "gamedogs" for those folks out there who might find all this stuff to be confusing.                     

P.S.   I have some red nose pups for sale.  The daddy is a budro gatormouth rednose carver 100 lbs. . . . and the momma is a black widow, german rednose, crossed over a double gatormouth Frisco pit.  The pups are all champagne blue rednose and they are all guaranteed to be Warlock gator mouths.  These pups come with a "lock-jaw" guarantee.     

Slim, this is about the best post on these dogs I have ever seen put up. So much of the time I just gotta not say anything cause I just haven't got the time to try straighten out the myths and outright lies. Well done sir!

Slim, is that a money back garantee? If so, ill buy the whole litter. Do you take a rubber checks?  ;D
That is a good informative post you made. Hopefully it will enlighten new readers.

The guys that believe those things will never change there minds. Good right up tho as we all know well some of us that it won't change any one   


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Good read y'all ! I really enjoy pedigree history write ups like that
Thanks !

yes they are guaranteed.  If they are not the most tightest bred gator mouth double german red nose Frisco black widow budro jarhead pits you've ever seen, simply return the pup and I will replace it with a 100 lb. triple bred/double crossed inbred Red Nose bloodlined tiger stripe crocodile mouth bullyson pit.  Guaranteed to have 2300 lbs. PSI jaw pressure.  I test all my brood stock on a bite meter to measure the PSI of the jaw pressure.  And then I have my vet to engage the lock jaw mechanism to see if the pit will let go when lightning strikes.  All pups come with a 30 day supply of gunpowder and a breaking stick signed by Maurice Carver.

It's just plain aggravating, aint it?  That's an interesting story about you having Frisco for a minute.  I bought a pup off him after Garner bought the dog. I gave $300 back in 89 or 90.  Decent little dog I guess, but nothing more than garden variety.  And the pup I got was off a littermate sister to Hollingsworths Dolly (Mayday's mother).  Go figure.  That just goes to show that a bloodline does not always guarantee quality.  That's why I get so aggravated when someone says they got a Carver bred dog, or a Chinaman dog, Jeep dog, Boudreaux dog, etc.  Hell, that could mean anything, but it doesn't always mean GOOD. 

Slim, there was a time when I was attempting to enlighten folks on the board about "gamebred" dogs and finally realized it just wasn't happening. Lol For some reason these folks that believe the myths and have the "gator mouths" just won't listen to the truth.

I wish this convo was written in a book or somewhere, there so many folks who claim to be dog breeders who have no clue as to what their doing but yet flood the market with these "blooded" dogs. That is probably the most common sense way to put for folks to understand breeding.

Some great posts, Slim. I'm just wondering why it makes you mad about the Jeep, Chinaman, Carver, etc... comment?    Not everybody knows that McCool dogs are down off of Carvers and not everybody would know what was meant if they say they have a "tab bred" dog and even fewer would know what somebody meant when they say they have a Earl Jr. bred dog. I prefer more specifics also but understanding that not everybody knows every single game dog that's ever been born, I can understand using general bloodlines. Then I take it a step further and ask "carver dogs through who?"

I'm just curious why it makes you mad, I mean no disrespect in my question. It's nice to know there's more real bulldog folks on here lol I was feeling lonely and hardly visit anymore because most talk on here is "red nose pit" talk haha.

Treezbulldogz...I reckon when we mention a line of dogs and it is close up enough that it pertains then it is describing a bloodline that hopefully will possibly describe what your pup could possibly be one day...if it is a tight bred line with one great dog showing up 4 or 5 times up close and that great dogs sire and dam were great dogs as well, then that says a lot to me...instead of the pup possibly turning out great it is now more a
probability and not so much a
possibility...saying a pup is out of old
so and so bloodline, and the dogs from that line were from 30 years ago, and 7
or more generations back then that
pup probably will not  have any
relations to that line from that long
ago...some folks honestly will believe the line is alive and well...




back...we also have to consider many other things...the
different breeders since those great dogs might not have tknow the first thing about breeding better dogs but are counting on those names from way back when...

I understand completely, maybe I should have worded my response different. I'll try to use my scenario instead of general scenarios.


I have a couple LG bred dogs. Very very few people outside of the REAL bulldog world have even heard of LG. LG's dogs are down off of Carver dogs. Sometimes when somebody asks how they are bred, I just say "carver bred dogs. "  I'm not sure why that would make somebody mad is what I'm saying. Not everybody knows of LG so alot of times I just say carver bred. Same with my Frisco bred dog, who all knows of Hotshot? Not many. So I just say a Frisco bred dog. Easier and less explanation unless it's needed. Does that mean that person doesn't know about how their dogs are bred? I say no.

Treez, I try to gauge how much I need to explain before I say how mine are bred too. I have some LG stuff also and if I say I have Carver they all think McCool is the only Carver. I hate to try explain to those who have little hope of getting it. I have less patience the older I get. This board is about the only one where I even try to help new guys understand. And yes, thank goodness there are some very knowledgeable guys on here with the patience to explain some realities.

Good deal, I'm glad I'm not the only one here who chooses when to be more specific and when it's not necessary. From talking with you, WOW, I do know you are one of the bulldog folks on here. I've said it before but I'll say it again, thanks for what you have done with the bulldogs. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be feeding one of my LG dogs. I appreciate you, WOW. 

You're right, Mad is probably a poor choice of words.  If something like that makes me mad, I need to get a life, lol.

That's a good example.  LG is a good friend of mine, I've known him for 25 years.  I had several LG dogs years ago and worked a couple dogs for him.  I bred to FLint a couple times and Trouble as well.  LG sent me a bitch to get a litter out of, it was either Thelma or Girlfriend I believe.  One of my favorite dogs I ever had was out of Trouble x Girlfriend.  I saw Tina, Leroy Brown, Flint, Son and lots of those dogs back in the day.  A funny story about LG's dogs.  My cousin and I had gone to LG's one Saturday afternoon to hunt some dogs.  We had a son of Diamond Jim's Luther (sired by Hyde's Satch) that we took down there to the baypen.  We were getting ready to leave and G-Man said . . "Do you young guys want to buy some good puppies for $250 a piece" ?  We took a look at them and they were in a pen, pretty colored white and brindles, etc.  We asked how they were bred and he said . . "they are out of my Little Man dog and my Miss Kim bitch".  We didn't recognize any famous dogs in the pedigree so we passed and told him we would get back with him later.  True story.  LG came to a BBQ I had at my house a couple years ago and we laughed about that story.

Best dog I ever had was a bitch named Lil Bobby out of Holland's Cadillac and Wiggles (wiggles was out of Leroy Brown x Tina).  DSK had a littermate to my bitch and they called him Pancho.  I bred Lil Bobby to WCC Ernie (Deacon x Joby) which I had on my yard for 2 years and got one male puppy that I named Fatboy.  I sold the dog as a half grown pup to Krazyside and I believe LJ got some good dogs off him, but not sure.

Another true story:  I used to go visit LG a lot when I would be working in Shreveport for a day.  He worked as sales mgr for a car lot at the corner of Lakeshore & Hearn.  We got to talking about Banjo one day and he said . . "Hell, I can show you a littermate to Banjo and BB across the street behind Church's Fried Chicken."  He said an old lady who lived across from the car lot had a littermate to Banjo in her back yard as a pet.                         

PS.  It was the breeding of Holland's Cadillac x DSK's Wiggles that produced my Lil Bobby gyp and DSK's Poncho and another one called Bush Doctor.  It was that breeding that got the LG x Redboy cross kinda started.  LG and B. Holland were always good buddies and LG had wanted a Redboy stud.  He got one from Holland out of Dead Eye Dick.  LG called his dog "Red Eye Rick".  I believe if you look back in some of those older LG breedings when he was crossing Redboy into them, you will see he also bred to a Redboy dog called Huckleberry.  I raised Huckleberry (who was out of Robinson's Apache) and sold him to Jeff Mason (the professional boxer from Chicago) as a 3 yr old.  Jeff and his 1st cousin (who was Montell Griffin) came to my house and bought Huckleberry and his 2 littermate sisters.  Montell Griffin had just beaten Roy Jones Jr. for the title, and he had dogs as well.  I'm pretty sure GMan bred to Huckleberry too, after Lil Jeff bought him.       

I really enjoyed those posts, Slim, I sincerely thank you for sharing that. I could sit and listen all day long about the days before my time. I hate I was born in the early 80s lol I would have loved to be around in those days. You don't hear much at all about Mr. G so the insight you have it much appreciated by somebody like myself who likes LG dogs but got them from somewhere else. I know LG keeps to himself and is a smart man for doing so. Great line of dogs that have been kept close to the circle of folks who appreciate and work them. Again, I appreciate you sharing and I'm all ears  8).

Those GMan dogs are about the purest old Carver dogs there are (if there is such a thing, lol).  GMan, McCool, Thibodeaux, J. Mayfield and Texas Ironman were the only people who had those dogs back in the day.  Before them it was T. Curry who had a lot of the old Carver dogs.  I believe Thibodeaux used to work dogs for the Currys if I remember correctly.  GMan got his dogs from Thibodeaux.  Thibodeaux was a farrier (and a crackhead) who worked at LA Downs racetrack.  If I remember correctly, GMan told me he traded a V6 engine for Miss Kim.  I remember Miss Kim and Little Man when they were on GMan's yard before they were famous.  Wish I would have loaded up on those dogs before they were famous.  Back then, nobody wanted GMan's dogs, me included.  Like I said, I could have bought pups out of Lil Man and Kim for $250, but the dogs were not known yet and had no reputation much.  I had a son of Jeep at the time and I thought I had the "cat's meow" just because he was a son of Jeep.  He didn't produce all that well.  I could have gotten a much better family of dogs for $250 a pup and just didn't know it.  GMan kept a yard full of them and hunted them hard and went through them until he developed a good strain of hog dogs.  I saw both Banjo and BB hunt, they were very good catch dogs, with BB being the best.  GMan never cared for the Banjo stuff much, as Banjo was sired by Sack and Sack quit a hog in the practice pen in short order. 

Like all bloodlines, there is good and bad, and not every dog is gonna make it just because they have "the blood".  I probably had 15 dogs off LG's yard at one time.  Not all of them were good.  But the ones that were good were long distance hog dogs with bottom and lots of hunt.           

As for the Carver dogs: . . . Anybody who has a Carver dog has absolutely no idea how the dog is bred when you get way back in the pedigree.  My best friend and dog partner of 25 years knew Carver very well and went to his place on several occasions.  He told me on one particular occasion, that there was a Mexican fellow there who had come up from Mexico with a van loaded with dogs.  Carver was taking the dogs out of the van and placing them on chains.  Carver may have known how the dogs were bred (or had some idea), but they were most likely some of his stuff he had sold the Mexicans crossed with Ed Crenshaw blood/ Stu Fowler/Red Lady/Morfin, etc.  Anyway, Carver would sell a man a good dog, and then make sure it was papered off something he had advertised at Stud.  I had several old timers who knew Carver very well, tell me that Carver was the best paper hanger there ever was.  If you watch the Mountain Man interview on Youtube, you will hear Mountain Man say the same thing.  He talks about how he had Carver send him a female to use as a brood gyp, and he figured that Carver had hung papers on the gyp, but he didn't really care because he knew Caver would send him a good dog.  Another good friend of mine, A. Harden, was close with Carver and he had purchased several dogs from Carver, one of them was Carver's Cowhide.  He said after Maurice had died, his widow Pat, called him and asked him if he wanted to purchase Stompanato, as she knew he had shown an interest in the dog and had dogs off Stompanato.  He drove to her place and said that she let Stompanato out of the house (he was a house dog) and that he ran through a yard of about 30 dogs, running loose, and went around sniffing females to see if any were in heat.  Stompanato then came back to the house and she opened the door and he went back inside.           

A lot of what you just wrote I've heard before and believe it to be true because of so many with the same story. Especially about him hunting them hard and combing through them. That's one line that I hope doesn't end up being peddled like a lot of the others. I like the fact that not may know of them, that's how I hope it stays. I also heard BB was a bad bad girl, I would have loved to see those hunts. That is funny about the $250 a pup deal and passing lol.


If you don't mind me asking, Slim, do you still feed any LG dogs?

Yesir! He would sell the cake but keep the ingredients separately. I don't agree with that practice but to each his own. At this point though, IMO, it doesn't make much of a difference as far back as the "carver" dogs really are. I know you know that, just saying I don't care. I focus on the dogs closer up as most do.

A STORY ABOUT OLD FAMILY REDNOSE

The Old Family Rednose dogs have a lot of myth behind them.  WayOutWest or others may know more about the OFRN so I would welcome any corrections if I get this wrong.  But I talked to my buddy this morning who was a protégé of Bob Wallace and here is what he said.  Most of the Old Family blood can be traced back to William Lightner of Louisiana and Jim Corcoran of Boston, MA.  Jim Corcoran came to this country from Ireland to fight the world bare knuckle boxing champ, John L. Sullivan around the turn of the century.  He stayed in Boston, MA and became a police officer, and sent for his dogs from the old country and his dogs helped start the red nosed line in the US.  I believe Feely's dogs may have had a lot of Corcoran influence, and he said that Bob Wallace's dogs had a lot of Corcoran in them in the 1930's and 1940's.  William Lightner stated that he could trace his line of rednose dogs back to his grandfather's dogs from before the Civil War.  But Lightner did not care for the red nosed dogs he had, because he said they were too big and he liked smaller dogs.  When Lightner left LA and moved to Colorado, he left his red nosed dogs with a man named Bourgeous in LA.  There was a fellow named Dan McCoy from the Amarillo, TX area.  He and Bob Hemphill from S. Carolina went to Bourgeous place and acquired the rednosed dogs that Lightner had left behind, and they split them up.  So McCoy was breeding them in Amarillo and Hemphill in Carolina.  That was it basically.  It was Dan McCoy who coined the phrase "Old Family Red Nose" as kind of a marketing term and a way to distinguish him and Hemphill's dogs from everyone else.  He said before that, nobody had ever heard the term Old Family Red Nose.  He said Bob Wallace acquired his Rednose dogs from these old Lightner dogs that were being bred by Hemphill, to cross into his Corcoran dogs, but a lot of Bob's dogs were black nosed dogs, brindles and some blacks (as WAYOUTWEST pointed out about Old Family not all being rednosed).  He also said that Bob Wallace purchased Searcy Jeff for $1,000 in 1937,  which was an unheard of amount of money in 1937.  He said that Wallace also searched out and acquired dogs bred off Ferguson's Centipede, that Earl Tudor had owned at one time.  But Bob only used these dogs for crossing into his existing family and wasn't really trying to be an OFRN breeder.  He said that by the time he met Bob Wallace in 1961, most of Bob's dogs had been turned Red/Red Nose by that time.  He also said that Wallace never wanted to be known as a breeder of rednosed dogs only, and said that Bob actually wrote an article for one of the magazines back then titled. . . "there is no magic in a red nose" . . or something like that.  I never knew any of that, as I always thought Bob Wallace was the Rednose Man.  

I got all this from a man who knew Wallace, Lightner, Hemphill all personally.  Just a little history of the Old Family Red Nose dogs that so many people are trying to find this blood.  All this stuff was happening in the 40's, 50's and 60's, so it's so far removed from what was being called the Old Family Rednose that in 2015, I just don't think there is really an OLD FAMILY line anymore.  I may be wrong.  

      
              

No, I only have one bulldog, a direct son of Machobuck.  I haven't had a yard of bulldogs for many, many years.  I Stud this male out on occasion and will probably always have a bulldog around to feed and love on.  I just like em and can't see myself not having one or two around to admire.  I will go hog hunting on occasion and bring the catch dog for the group, but I sold all my yellow cur dogs a few years ago and don't go much anymore.  If you want to bring the heat, you ought to bring one of those GMan gyps and breed to Macho Sam.  He is the real deal.     

Most of what I know about OFRN comes second hand from Orval Sneed or what I have read. I do know that Iron Mike up in Indiana had some good ones he called OFRN. I got my LG stuff by breeding to Musket while he was at TLK. I have access to it up here now thru a good son. But I only have the one dog anymore with real dog bloodlines. I have a bulldog bred strictly for catching for the last 20 yrs. I had limited success trying to make catchdogs out of the dogs I was breeding. They were not wired to go for the ear and they were more wound up than what I have now. I didn't have a bunch of dog aggression but when I only hunt on my one trip to Texas a year it's hard to get a catchdog consistant unless it's bred in. Years ago I judged MachoBuck in a show in Liberty when I was still Judging. I don't know if Chico showed him any other times but he looked like an ol Warrior then.

I meant "secret" , not separately. lol

I thought maybe you might have been out of dogs for a little bit. I can completely understand, I'll always have a bulldog around also. I'll look up his ped and definitely keep that in mind, I appreciate you throwing that out there. I only have 2 dog with LG blood behind them, one a male and one a female. I think the male is going back to the breeder due to him loosing his brother here recently and he wants to get this one back. And my female -->    (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=36604)  has roughly %60 LG blood in her and my plan was to take her to a very tight LG male to tighten up on the LG blood. I really like the CH Scarface dog a lot and he's one of the top considerations if he's still available when the time is right. I would like that Machobuck addition to the puzzle though! I'm going to look up his ped if I can find it. Who is your Macho Sam out of?

Now there is a name from the past . . . Norrod.
I remember when I first got into dogs in the 80's, I would see Mike Norrod's Ironline Kennel ads.  I would always turn my nose up at it because the names in the pedigrees were not impressive or considered mainstream at the time.  I was bad wrong.  That Maximillian/ Ch Iron Spike stuff was actually some real good dogs.  Going back to Red Devil/Creed's Iron Dusty/Corvino stuff.  Then I noticed some years later that Mike had the dog I believe called Gambler, who was out of Miret's Bud x Norrod gyp.  Notice how Miret's Bud was the heavy Redboy stuff and a grandson of Kitten's Ch. Britches.  I believe Norrod knew how Redboy was truly bred and that's why he crossed it into his stuff.  I am one of the people who 100% believes that Bass Tramp Redboy was down from Creed's Iron Dusty/Wise's Red Devil breeding, and NOT out of Howard Teal's stuff as his papers indicate.   I have probably had more Redboy dogs than any other line I've had.  I had several off Deacon, Hunter Red, etc. and I was shown an old photo of Iron Dusty/Red Devil (same dog) and it was like I was looking at my dogs . . . identically.  I owned Holland's Haymaker ROM and he is the spitting image of Iron Dusty, and so is WCC's Deacon, and so was WCC's Ernie who I had for a couple of years.  I bought Haymaker from Dykes when he was 9 years old and kept him until he died.  He is buried down by the creek behind my house.  My partner and I also had Kitten's Ch. Britches when he died in 1995.  He was 12 or 13 years old.   I guess Redboy dogs are actually some of the closest thing there is to old family red nose if you believe they are bred the way I believe.          

Slim I believe the same way you do on Redboy. It just don't make sense that there was so much change in a line of dogs. Same way with Blackjack, no way he was off Gator. I had a bitch off Blackjack and bred back to Gator sons and it worked out very well for me. Carver may have been the best at sellin you just what you wanted but Pat Patrick was a close second. I did see that Gambler dog when he was 9 or 10 yrs. old  and he looked pretty good. I've been blessed (or cursed) depending how you look at it to have met a whole bunch of the old dogmen. Sadly it just seems all I hear about now is when another one dies. I visited Floyd B. this last winter and he gave me and my buddy Tdog some breakin sticks and some good wood to make more so I sent him down a knife about a week ago that I had made. I think I will just keep that message on my phone of him thanking me. It was a pretty cool deep down thank you.

that is an impressive pedigree you have on Macho Sam...I wouldn't mind having a pup out of him one day...if you a picture of Sam you should post it...what is his weight and shoulder height?

I weighed him this week and he is 55 lbs, lean on the chain.   I've never measured a dogs shoulder height. Let me get my wife to see if I can post a pic, I don't know how.

I found his ped, I agree, he's bred very well!

This is the CH Scarface dog I was speaking of ...http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=11430

And this is the bitch I've thought about taking to him...http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=36604

Tickles me seein that ped since I bred Cali. I am waiting on the breeding of a son of Musket to Kandi as soon as she comes in. I am in line for a bitch out of that. Kandi is a big bitch comin down from Tanner.

I bet it does! I appreciate what you did, I sure like my dog. I haven't been able to get out and work her like I want to but she shows me things that I like so far.


You wouldn't be talking about http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=319875, would you?

No, my buddy up here has Kandee right now and will be breeding her to a son off Musket , I can't remember the bitch. He had on off Musket and Kandee tho for awhile and he was an intense son of a gun that you had to watch your hands around. He would nip ya and it hurt like heII. That Tanner dog was the real deal. His owner still says he was the best he has had.

Oh ok. If things work out, I'm supposed to be getting a pup off of GR CH Son , that's why I asked. That's how this "Luna" dog is off of Cali, she gets worked up and she'll nip you. She nipped me in my eye lid one time lol swelled up pretty good with a couple teeth marks haha. Yea, I've heard Tanner was all bulldog from all accounts.  My other LG bred dog is a grandson of Tanner on the topside. He's LG/Hammonds blood.

TLK does a lot of the LG/Hammonds crosses cause the LG bitches are so much better mothers. Those damn Hammond bitches practice tuff love. It doesn't come real natural to them.

That is funny. That's very true, Hammond's dogs tend not to be the best mothers, you're sure right on that lol. The cross works well though from what I've heard.