EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I just wanted to get an ideal how many guys are using RCD's nowadays.    Years ago I had never even heard of them but this style of dog has really seemed to be popular lately.   What breeds or crosses seem to make the best RCD's and how many of you guys are currently using them In your pack?     

I got a few that are straight catch all tho I would call them rcd to cd implies that it will catch no matter what. I got three that catch pretty much on any hog at any time but have bayed before not for long but none the less have done it that's why I won't call them cd or running catch dogs even tho that's how I use them. Mine are straight cur and cat x fl cur I don't like a pit crossed dog they can be great I just don't care for them. Depending where I am hunting I put a loose dog on the ground with two monsters and hold a cd on a lead with the rough dogs I very seldom need the bulldog but it's a good habit to always carry one no matter what dog your hunting you wouldn't want to get a good dog killed cuz you didn't bring one. Mine are short range and have ran hogs past 2 miles out caught so you can't be picking your nose you best be getting after it or not use this type of dog. Many time I will take two loose dogs and when they bay up I will thro one one the ground to investigate the hog lol. I know most would never do that but I do


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Alvin,

I have and can use my dogo as a RCD- although I don't prefer to do it this way and I use him as a lead in CD 99% of the time.  I only use him as a RCD if I am trying to shut a hog down on a very small piece of property and I typically only use him with my old cur dog or with my Joe dog on what I know is going to be a big boar or barr hog.  For example, I hunt a piece of property that borders an Army post and the boundary line from the lease to the post is not fenced.  I will turn my dogo loose as a RCD in this scenario because I am trying to eliminate any chance of the hog breaking and running across the border.  My dogo is tall and lean and can run most hogs down in the open and he will catch and hold until he cant hold not more (tired or death).  I wont use him as a RCD if I don't think I can get to him within a few minutes.  Having him caught on a rank hog 400 yds or further with no easy access is not my intent.  I would also tend to use him as a RCD in big clear bottoms versus high and dry pine sapling thickets.  I also would hesitate to use him as a RCD where he may have to swim many creeks if the hogs breaks.....for these reasons, I use him mostly as a lead in CD and oh by the way, I think he would sustain too much damage and his life span would be much shorter if he was always used as a RCD.  Important for my scenario is that one of my dogs is rough enough that he is going to catch most hogs by himself anyway, no need for me to have a CD running along side him.....as long as the bay dog know when to back up and wait for help.

I don't  have what most refer to on here as RCD's.       What I have (most of what I have) are finder holders.   They don't bark or hhesitate to catch.    Their is no bay dog blood in their lineage only breeds of dogs in their background that are hardwired as straight catch.          It is my opinion that is why Dogos are largely so iffy and not consistent as a whole as solid catch dogs.   Their breed is comprised of a few different dogs that are not catch dogs. However, lot of them are great catch dogs but many are not.     From what I've read on them, they were developed to hunt in the same similar style I hunt my dogs though.
    The finder holders I hunt with work very well as duel purpose dogs.   Hunt the woods, brush, rough terrain etc as finder holders and they also can be run as stags when doing crop work.   My stag is faster than my finder holder dogs but not by much.    They are fast enough that they work very well when paired with a stag running accross fields because they are right there to cut the corner when the animal cuts on the lead stag and make the catch just the same as the second stag will do.     Got to be fast enough to be in position to cut that corner when the lead stag causes the animal to cut to the left or right in order for the second dog to be effective.     I'd venture to say  most Dogos or mastiffs or other type dogs would not be fast enough to capitalize on the way a stag operates.  The stag in that case will normally catch the pig itself  or  cut the pig so many times the other dog can catch up and assist.           My finder holders essentially nullifie the need for stags to do crop work because of their speed.         If the woods surrounding the fields are still your permission,  the hunt ain't necessarily over with finder holders once you have caught a couple pigs in the field and the others have vacated the field.     Get the dogs in the woods and let them start hunting with their nose and catch yourself another.

I wasn't talking down on the Dogo, I have a very healthy respect for them.     I was just doing my best to draw the distinction between them and the dogs i run.      From what I've read on the creation of the Dogo, they were intended to have a similar hunt style as the finder holders I run.         Figured I'd better clarify before it was taken the wrong way  ;)
     

I agree...a dog that catches sometimes and bays at other times is not a catch dog...and a 50/50 chance of getting a catch dog is not good odds...I feel the same about stock dogs...not saying there aren't good ones out there but I want to up my chances of having a top hunting dog...

Changing gears I saw years ago that the future hog dog will be more of the RCD or holder types out of necessity ...and silent dogs to keep from waking up the residences that are popping up all over the country side...the land tracts/ranches are getting smaller...I want dogs of the type I like but with enough grit to operate almost as running catch dogs...with the GPS technology it is doable...keeping the races quiet and as short as possible is the future...actually in lots of cases the future is now...

I occasionally run a dogo/pit on the ground as rcd with my little jagd deadly combo lol I will run him with my curs when on small properties to shut down any races has seemed to work good most of the time pretty good success rate

From my experience my cracker curs are find and hold, sometimes they will bay a large hog 300lb range until they here us walking in and then it's on, but they are straight find and hold otherwise. What are stags? I hunt north Florida not familiar with them.

I have what most would call a RCD. I just call him a hog dog! He is basically a catch dog that will hunt. Pit x cur. I use to always run him on the ground as a straight RCD but have gotten a little wiser with him after the amount of beatings he's taken. If I'm hunting long range loose dogs I'll just lead him in. With short to medium range rough dogs that I trust will also catch I will run him loose as a RCD. I can also hunt him one out finder holder style and he will find catch and hold. He has caught over 50-75 hogs of all sizes.He's probably struck 10-12. He's about 3 and weighs 55#. Great all around dog. He is also very good during crop season either finding his own in there or shutting down the races before they get started in the crops.

Stags are not a recognized bred (thankfully).    They are generally a combination of greyhound  and deerhound, not necessarily a F1 cross but their own kinds breed really.      They are very well known among the coyote dogmen fraternity and often used to run down and kill coyotes.         Problem with them being used on pigs is often times they are not hard enough to be 1 out dogs on the largest of boars but now and then you come across one that is.   However, they usually work very well in pairs.    The stag I have is as hard as a pit.    He is crazy hard and uses his nose a little.   Stags are not bred by the coyote guys for their nose though but have such an incredible prey drive that it's not to difficult to get them to where they will wind hogs from a short distance off.    They are about as fast as a grey hound and often times the coyote guys make claims that some stags are faster than some greyhounds.          Their prey drive is incredible with the if it runs it dies mentality.     Their trigger will trip instantly when something runs so they are hard to get just strictly to focuse on one prey item only.     Coyotes, deer, rabbits, pigs etc are all on the menu if you don't watch it.   Even frogs and birds.     Great fun to have and watch run pigs down but really need to use them with caution.   This is just a generalized summery of the breed, not individuals.    My stag runs around the yard with my chickens and doesn't pay them any mind.    He isn't to keen now on wanting to kill deer now either.    They often times will not come when called but rather wait on you to come to them.   Often times they are only a one person dogs and not really over affectionate with stagers but aren't agressive.   Very very different personality over all than a cur.   Lot of other pros and cons to them also but you either love them or not.      Mine is very very laid back and respectful,  almost regal acting and looking often times when their trigger isn't tripped that's how they are untill it is.    
        In an effort for the coyote guys to get a perfect dog that destroys coyotes easily, single handed, they will sometimes add in a litte this or that and then breed away from it.   Some might add a little pit, some might add in a little wolfhound but then breed away from it to get a stag that's hopefully a coyote destroying machine on its own.    

In my experience the great dogs have that regal and laid back look to them until the tail gate drops...

years ago the greyhound folks were concerned that the dogs had become shy and skittish and many had lost the high prey drive...A geneticist was hired to fix the problem and after doing his research he found that the english bulldog was the fix...he did make one mistake...he said it was going to take 3 to four generations to see good results...it actually to the first cross to see results...I new could figure out why it was a dog so different from the greyhound to actually be the fix...but as I learned more about dogs and breeding I have developed a theory...the English bull dog deviates so far from the norm that it would take much to get him pulled back in to what is more normal...so the traits exhibited must be mainly made up of a bunch of recessive genes paired up together...
I like the idea of game bred leggy pitbull x greyhound...have seen them years back in south texas...looked like greyhounds on steroids...

Several things help a finder holder keep themselves damage free.   The first is in the manner in which they are hunted, only by themselvesor with another finder holder, thats it!      Second is their body structure.
long neck and 28 inches or their abouts, taller the better to a point.     Long neck and length of body allow the dog to run in a vest that just covers the neck and shoulders.   When they are holding a big boar by the ear, the boars hardware can just barely hit them in the front of the shoulder and can not hit them behind the shoulder ( unless the dog gets waded up which is unusual )
   Their height helps them keep their footing and control the pig.    Example when the boar loads up and thrusts his head up, the dog isn't knocked off its feet.   Usually once the dog has caught,  the boar can't even hit the dog in the shoulder, only the neck but the height of the dog and it's length of neck allows for it to only absorb the last little bit of the upward thrust.   This doesn't hurt the dog and doesn't knock it's front feet of the ground which allows the dog to continue its dance very well with the pig.    The athletsism of a good finder holder is a big key to allowing it to hold safe.    The big dogs are very quick and agile and do well in tight quarters and can juke and jive well, all while holding the pig.   The dogs strength and power combined with its agility and quickness allow it to control the pig well and keep itself safe when in tight quarters.     The boar can't rake the dog off and or get it in a bind very easily because all this combined with the dogs power enables the dog to pull and turn a big away from obstacles the boar is trying to use to rake the dog off with or wad the dog up against so he can work the dog over.    Of course to get a finder holder to this point in his career takes little steps of progression and experience but the dog has the tools and natural ability to keep itself save with minimal protective gear which allows the dog to stay cooler and more mobile.

 I understand what your referring to in a good dog looking and acting regal but what I'm referring to is that gentlmen deerhound ora and royalty appearance in their posture.      Only way I can best describe his posture and attitude when he casually stands or lays down with his feet crossed and his head up is regal.      I am very sure this look, posture, and personality come from the deerhound mostly.       But yeah I get exactly what your talking about in the confidence a laid back sure enough badazz  dog carries himself with.    That too is very majestic.

Thanks for the info, I grew up on a grey hound farm. From our experience it was always to risky hunting them because they break limbs so easily. But never really thought of crossing one.

Black Streak- can you post a pic of one of these Finder Holders?  Better yet, maybe you could start a Finder Holder thread so this one doesn't get high jacked.

No i can't post pictures on this forum eventhough i have a photo bucket account.     I dont have the option to formate them in the way i apparently need to to get them on this forum.     I suspect it's my phone that won't allow me the option but my phone is all I got.

Text me some pics.   I'll post them for you.   (580) 258-0206

   

Ok

See black hawk see how nice OCONEE is see he is helping u out


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Yea I'm not too bad of a guy.  Ha ha ha

Lol I had no doubts he wasn't bad guy.   I also believe he has exceptional dogs and a strong desire for excellents.    I just hate when he isn't so humble.    So I tell him his dogs can only do half what others on this forum can do when he starts saying he has HOG DOGS while the rest of us don't.      When you make broad statment like that it ain't good.       As far as my personal belief in the man, his technique and his dogs, i believe he is probably  really good and his dogs are probably very very good but I hate arrogance.   I had an avenue to try to put a little humility in him is all.    He described his approach to hunting his dogs and I thought he was talking about how I hunt my dogs it was so similar.     Enough of the sweet talk though because I know he fixing to try to back a hand me for this lol

I hunt with Rcds my Curs catch as well but I have 3 true Rcds 2 are leggy big pits and one is a AB cross all three will wind,trail and find there own hog.I have good luck with them if they find one its done and if the Curs find one they're going to catch anyway so I like to have a heavy weight running loose to help them out. Many people don't like this style of hunting but it suits me well.

Yes they are very ideal for many things.   In my opinion and knowing them the way I do, I can not think of a more versatile hog dog.       I don't see this kind of hunting dog to be appealing to most people though.     I think people are curious about them but i don't see them converting to this style of dog.  For two main reasons.  First is a bay in the woods is fun and exciting  and gets you all fired up when leading the catch dogs to it.    Finder holders don't have that element of excitement to them in the woods.   It's just  reading your dogs, listening for squeeling or two silent warriors going at it and only sound you here is the lock up and breaking branches if they are fairly close, or looking at the gps.    Not near as exciting as a bay for most people.    The second reason why I think people would be reluctant to hunt with this style is because letting the catch dogs run loose is crazy talk to most folks.    Goes against everything they have ever been taught and what their nightmares are of. ( I exaggerated that last little bit to make my point)   plus who would leave their strike dog they have so much faith in, at the house and just go hunting with their catch dogs running around on the ground like curs.      Would be really really hard for people to do.     I know because it was for me, but i seen its potential and I knew the only way it would work was to not half azz it by using them as RCD's running down with a few curs.    When i went all in the first couple times it was nerve racking as it could be for me, but with the success I had, my confidence in the style grew.     Now I veiw it as the safest way you can catch a pig.     
   Finder holders are not all the same.    Their are long range dogs and short range dogs, fast dogs and dogs just fast enough.  You just got to know what produces what.      Danes are likely to produce long range finder holders that can hold pigs much longer than you would ever imagine.    You don't want to go the pure Dane route if you want to hunt small tracks of land because they are prone to being long range dogs.    Having a pig caught way off scares the pants off people and rightfully so but not totally a thing nightmares are made of if you have a dog that's very capable and built for holding a big boar for a long long time by himself IF, the boar was caught where he was found and not allowed to run to a prefered spot to make his stand.    Their are more to the finder holders than what people imagine, they aint all from the same mold.     Pits can do a fair job if run as finder holders.   They have decent nose to them, just not many people allow them to use their nose.    The pit however is not well suited for holding a big boar the way a good finder holder is because of the height and length.    They should be protect much farther back than a taller dog with a longer neck.   This longer vests restricts some mobility but also traps in heat.   Finder holder needs to keep its cool lol.         I've run my pit with my finder holder pups and had her find and catch pigs first so it certainly can be done.   Pits are an amazing dog in my eyes.   I love mine very very much.       
    When i say it's bad business to run finder holders down with curs, I'm painting with a very broad brush which almost always makes a fool of you.     Example,  how do the guys like Peel and Cracker run RCD's with curs or their catch dogs and be so successful at it.     Well their curs are like RCD's already.     They are more like catch dogs than bay dogs so they are essentially hunting so close to the same style dogs i am, that it works and works really well.      If you run a catch dog on the ground with just normal curs, you in for a heartache.       The manner in which RCD's are paired with other dogs either works well or gets them killed along with others of the pack.    Same as my dogs, Peel or Cracker could incorporate one of my dogs into their pack and I wouldn't think much of it but I'd hit my knees if one of my dogs was on the ground with the average gritty type cur.     
    Earlier I mentioned my dogs are not as fun in the woods to hunt pigs with as bay dogs were, BUT what's exillerating to witness is these dogs doing crop work.    Now that ain't nothing but fun and excitement if you can see it all unfold.       
    A few guys might really see the potential of this type of dog and this type of hunting and how it might benifite them and their circumstances though.      There is another reason people see the potential of this type of dog but no need in discussing that here.
  In summary,  I don't see to many people giving up what they are confident in and commit to using these dogs they way they are intended because using these dogs responsibly takes a huge leap of faith, and because bays are more fun in most situations.     
    Hope you enjoyed my ramblings lol

I run a ridgeback x pit. He is a dog that will find run and catch any hog  he comes across. I run him full vest any time he is on the ground. I run rough catchy dogs with him. He will initiate the catch and hold the others will get in and help. The others will hold with him but without him won't catch big hogs unless the right opportunity presents itself. 200 down they will catch. I never run more than 1 loose dogs with my rough dogs. Then it's only because when their mouth is full they can't bark. I am of the mind if u are gonna run the type of dog I run it is best to run all rough to catchy dogs or all loose. I feel that one rough to catchy dog or a RCD with loose dogs is asking for trouble. I can run my RCD one out if needed but prefer to put his main back up on the ground with him at a minimum. I have seen the 2 of them hold a 200 pounder for over 45 min while we made our way in. I also do my best to stay 400 yards or so of my RCD because those long hikes gives too long for problems to happen. . 


Shotgun
Arkansas

I agree with your logic...years ago I had one loose dog that let me know where the dogs were caught on a hog...back before I had telemetry...

I read a post about this on a racing greyhound board posted by a Vet. But in his he actually said it was a pitbull terrier I think or maybe english bull terrier I don't remember or maybe I am remembering wrong. But either way it makes sense and they said it worked really well. They saw a big change in the F1 but really saw the best dogs a couple of generations in if I remember right.

In reference to this on a hunting show, they went to New Zealand and they hunted with a guy who's living was catching wild pigs. He only used two dogs and they were both a mix of cur, whippet and pit bull terrier. Smaller in size looked to be around 30-40 lb's and really fast. Very interesting the different style regardless.

I have no experience with greyhounds, only what I've learned by research and been told by people I feel like give good information.         I've been told that one semi decent hard grey bred to another might not produce dogs that would kill a rabbit but would run one and catch it,  just might not kill them.   I found that interesting.
   A greyhound is the fastest dog alive as the breed goes BUT they can't keep that pace up for long distances.   They have very little stamina.      After a grueling run for a greyhound, their energy is zapped and zapped for a while. Coupled with this, their  bones are light and thier skin is thin.     Why would you want to cross this dog to be and RCD when the planes states are full of stags guys breed specificly for running down and killing coyotes.   They are almost greyhound fast but have more stamina, thicker skin, heavier denser bones, are bigger more powerful dogs that are bred with the specific purpose to kill stuff that fights back.     Plus their is no show stock because they aren't a recognized breed thank goodness, but are a very old breed bred for that have been kept in the hands of people who work them.and USUALLY breed best to best for their hardness, speed, and endurance.      Plus they are all intact males and females and are easy to get.      So my question is, why do some go the route of crossing a greyhound to thier dog in order to get an rcd and not cross a stag instead?     

I suspect the lack of stamina comes from the present use and breeding practices. They are only run at short distances anymore so have rewarded sprinters by breeding them. My Dad and Uncle hunted fox in N.Dak. with them in the 50's and 60's and the dogs back then had no issues with long runs and killing a fox. I have some very fond memories of going with them when I was a lil tyke. I guess it may be that they just trained their dogs with more stamina in mind. But my Dad says they had no issues with runnin a fox down no matter how long it took. I remember at times they would go down a hole and they would get a roll of barb wire and run it down the hole till the fox was snarling and then twist it until they could pull the fox out. The hounds would kill it quick. Back then there was a bounty and they weren't selling hides. But I agree with you on their being better breeds like the stag for present day crosses.

I just got done wrighting a little response on the Resting Dogs thread in the general discussion that gives a big insight as to why certain breeds are suited for long distance and endurance and why some arent.      You might find it interesting.   It is just a little snippet to the data and information I have but it's enough to get see actually why certain breeds are better suited for certain types of efforts rather than just speculating to the best we can.

I have been involved with the APBT for over 35 yrs and couldn't agree with you more on that muscle type. If that dog does not have those long lean muscles he is gonna be a short term prospect. All the conditioning in the world will not overcome the wrong body type. Look at the top human runners. Sprinters and marathoners could not be built more different.

Yes indeed!  Very well said sir

WayOut/Blackstreak...both of you make good sense to me...

I also new of a man who was my uncles neighbor who ran greyhounds back in the 1960's...I don't know what he ran but they were used for hunting...coursing jack rabbits is what I believe his dogs caught...his dogs were sturdy looking fairly muscled...

but I did not know about the finer bone and thin skin until I read that here on this site...so as usual I have to develop my own theories as to the possibilities of why this is so...it is very possible that this has come about due to the racing of the greyhounds...the competition is fierce and it comes down to splitting hairs as to who wins day in and day out...splitting hairs for the racing greyhound in my mind probably involves thinner coat for better movement and less weight...finer bones for the same reason...so racing against a thicker coated dog of the same size will have more weight especially if the bones are more dense as well...so if the finer boned and thinner coat dogs consistently win then those are the ones that get bred to produce more racing champions...and this could be happening without anyone realizing this issue or maybe it is a known fact...pure speculation on my part without any research whatsoever...

they greyhound is more like the cheetah...one of the fastest dogs around but only for a short distance...the cheetah is the fastest animal known to man but he is also short ranged...

does anyone have any theories or facts as to why?

To my way of thinking, it is pretty simple. When you breed for one thing, speed, you race at relatively short distances and none of the other attributes of the dog matter. You lose that ruggedness that hunting dogs had in a hurry. It doesn't matter what kind of animal, man has steered them one way or the other to suit his needs or what he thinks his needs are. Not everyone breeding has the animals best interests in mind. Horse racing has produced fast horses but they break down pretty quickly much of the time. It's why so many go to stud early. $$$$$$$$$ not what's best for the big picture.

Ruben you and WayOutWest are both right the way I have come to learn about the greyhounds.        Their are a lot of greyhounds that get hurt now days and from my understanding their racing careers are normally short lived.   I'm very sure it has a lot to do with their fine bones.      Your very right on splitting hairs.    An ever so slightly slower dog that's more durable  might not ever win a race even though it's in my options a better animal but if I was a racer/breeder in pursuit of that purse, that better slower dog I like right now would be a cull to me then lol.   And after my faster dogs hurt themselves they would probably meet the same fate as the slower dog.    Sent to the greyhound rescue centers of course lol.       

Thin skin dissipates heat from the body quicker than thick skin. Also circumference of bone does not necessarily directly correlate with bone density, and therefore strength. The most important thing about bone in a dog is that the bone lengths are in the correct ratio to each other to produce speed, lateral dexterity, and soundness.

more than likely many of these traits evolved through selection of the winners and not a conscious  selection for these particular traits...winners are/were the ultimate truth as to what should be bred...and the facts that are known now about what makes a great racing hound have been studied after those facts...winners are made through proper selection out of racing winners, better breeding practices, training and diet etc...
racing dogs are bred for just that and of course breeding for other work requires a certain amount similarities yet very different type of dogs...

the information below I copied from a website...

Due to the Greyhound's unique physiology and anatomy, a veterinarian who understands the issues relevant to the breed is generally needed when the dogs need treatment, particularly when anesthesia is required. Greyhounds cannot metabolize barbiturate-based anesthesia as other breeds can because they have lower amounts of oxidative enzymes in their livers.[36] Greyhounds demonstrate unusual blood chemistry, which can be misread by veterinarians not familiar with the breed; this can result in an incorrect diagnosis.[37] [3]

Greyhounds are very sensitive to insecticides.[38] Many vets do not recommend the use of flea collars or flea spray on Greyhounds if it is a pyrethrin-based product. (See Dog fleas.) Products like Advantage, Frontline, Lufenuron, and Amitraz are safe for use on Greyhounds and are very effective in controlling fleas and ticks.[39]


 


 Illustration of the Greyhound skeleton
Greyhounds also have higher levels of red blood cells than other breeds. Since red blood cells carry oxygen to the muscles, this higher level allows the hound to move larger quantities of oxygen faster from the lungs to the muscles.[40] Conversely, Greyhounds have lower levels of platelets than other breeds.[41] Veterinary blood services often use Greyhounds as universal blood donors.[42]

Greyhounds do not have undercoats and thus are less likely to trigger dog allergies in humans (they are sometimes incorrectly referred to as "hypoallergenic"). The lack of an undercoat, coupled with a general lack of body fat, also makes Greyhounds more susceptible to extreme temperatures (both hot and cold); because of this, they must be housed inside.[43]

Anatomy[edit]

The key to the speed of a Greyhound can be found in its light but muscular build, large heart, and highest percentage of fast-twitch muscle of any breed,[44][45] the double suspension gallop and the extreme flexibility of the spine. "Double suspension rotary gallop" describes the fastest running gait of the Greyhound in which all four feet are free from the ground in two phases, contracted and extended, during each full stride.[46]

Do to the short endurance of a greyhound, i would not think they would make the ideal rcd as a full blooded specimen.     You might get to the catch to find your rcd out of the fight do to exhaustion and find that the other dogs are left holding the bag.     Just something to think about.     My experience with a full blooded greyhound is zero though, something else to think about lol.

I know some people across the pond that use greyhounds for hogs... Pakistan and Afghanistan. Really pretty incredible dogs... They may have a bull breed somewhere in there on some of the dogs, but some use straight greyhounds and seem to get the job done. None the less, a really interesting animal. Not exactly a fan of how they do it over there, but interesting nonetheless. Good find on that literature there Ruben!

I have seen in pakistan and other parts of the middle east where they use Saluki's. They are incredible if you ask me. They look very similar to a greyhound just have about 10x the stamina. There are tons of video's on youtube of them hunting antelopes and gazelle with them. Amazing speed and endurance they have.

 a short story...about 12 years ago my wife and I took my mother to Pearland, TX for a treatment she needed and it was going to be about 4 hours to get it done...me being a little on the ADHD type I got restless and needed to move around. We got my mother situated and we went looking around in a few pawn shops...I saw a nice porcelain figurine that was a scene of 2 stag hounds...one had a red stag by the throat or ear and the other was on his back and under the bull stag and latched on to the brisket...It was an excellent figurine because the dogs were detailed and correct as well as the Stag...the paint was in excellent condition...I am a fan of all working dogs but I was not going to pay $27.50 for it on account that is not a breed I would pay that much money for...if it were a redbone. plott, mt cur etc...I would pay that...I told my wife I might pay 15 bucks for it but surely not $27.50...She laughed and said you better look a little closer...that is not $27.50 you are looking at...It is $2750.00...after I verified the price I couldn't set it down fast enough...end of story...

That region of the world is were the Saluki stems from.      Some strains such as the desert dogs of the bedowins do not have the feathering.      I haven't seen the video so i ain't gonna say they aren't greys but if I was a betting man, I would bet they are no more than 1/2 grey if indeed they do have grey in them.

My question is do you like your rcds to find there own or just run with your bay dogs

I have seen some that were excellent hunters with a ton of grit...enough that I knew I didn't want any of that type...they were mt cur crossed with pit bull...every now and then you would get one that was about the right balance of traits from each parent...but most didn't live very long...the mt curs were from my line I used to keep...

I don't want a RCD or Lurcher type but I do want a great hunting dog with just enough sense to not be suicidal...catch enough to stop one and back off if the hog will keep still and when I get there I can call the dog to back away or I can give the command to catch it again...that is the goal...the average sight hound probably won't have the nose or the ability to find and stick with a bad runner in the thick thick briar patches and thick cutovers...

I'm facing that dilemma now, I'm leaning towards rcd help dogs and one med range cur to strike. I walk hunt and the country is too steep to get there fast if you have multiple hogs caught in different directions or too far away


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Probably best that you guys stay away from them.    If you don't understand them and how to use them just don't get them.       If your getting them killed, your doing something or multiple  things very wrong.        Most people will not be able to analyze why they are failing with them but that same person might very well be able to wrap their head around a different style of hunting dog.    Probably  best to let they people who successfully  run such dogs in question, answere the question.

He said RCD not finder holder, there's more than one kind of rcd and more than one way to use them


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What do yall think about running 2 jagds, rcd and using a catchdog

I don't know much about jagds, but my buddy runs two rat terriers and one or two CDs and does very well, the rats are about 35lbs so bigger and faster than jagds and are mostly bay, not as suicidal and short range


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Seen a guy out here that mainly runs a couple of Patterdales and a couple of Dogos together and does well.

thats pretty much the same concept in going for

Glad at least YOU realize.    Might try telling that to your buddy Ruben since he is  the one trying to answere the man's question by using them.  He clearly knows jack about them but is all to happy to talk about them as if he does.        Even if he did once own some kinda lurcher, that don't give you the right to compare junk in one breed or type to the better of another.          Another thing while I'm at it, if you are one of the ones that fail at doing something when others do it extremely  successfully, do you really think that person should be so eager to drag such into the discussion as if they are experts on them.   Especially  since you yourself just said  it isn't the same thing?         I wasn't the one that brought them to try to answere the man's question.     Matter of fact I didn't answere the question question because you are right,  Finder holders and RCDs  are not the same thing.  Did this deliberately because I don't have RCDs  and never have.   

   However Leif,  since the man asked about RCDs  finding their own pigs and since you are so quick to tell me This ain't the same as a finder holder,    how about telling me the difference between an RCD  that finds its own pigs and a Finder Holder since your trying to educate  me on it!

The RCD I have will sure enough find his own. Hell he hunts deeper than my main strike dog too. Actually he's the deepest hunting dog out of mine and all my buddies dogs we hunt together. I don't mind him hunting for himself until I lose gps signal on him or something. Then it gets sketchy. You really have to know the dog and what to look for in the Garmin of you run a RCD that will strike. If you don't know the dog or aren't paying attention you'll get him killed

What would that look like on a Garmin would it just show it treed or really tight circles

I'm not trying to educate you on anything, but the guy asking the question should know there are options, not everyone has access to the genetics you promote nor do most realize they even want them because they aren't aware of the advantages. Black streak I believe your style of RCD to be superior to many other forms, if they perform as you say and I have no reason to doubt your word, I would love to have a 90 lb long legged medium range, rcd with a good nose a long neck and a clean holding style and the stamina to hold a large boar by itself for over an hour, but I don't, I have some smaller dogs that catch on sight that are short range and don't take a track well and one RCD that has a good nose but weighs about 70 lbs that's medium range that has been getting my curs cut up. I have a friend that hunts one cat and 4 or 5 airedale crosses that are catch on site dogs but don't have good noses, very short range dogs, he's caught thousands of hogs with his dogs and doesn't lose one very often, you might be able to accomplish the same thing with one or two finder holders, does that make my friends way of hunting his dogs wrong? No it doesn't. You know as well as I do there are many successful ways to catch hogs with dogs, not all RCDs are created equal, and very few people have access to the genetics you prefer.


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black streak...now I know the meaning behind the handle. there seems to be a dark side about you...you write like you are the total expert on the subject. Like liefalwepon said...there are many styles of running catch dogs and I was speaking of one type and that type I do not recommend...these are the hard hunting type that will get deep and not come back because they have one thing in mind and that is to catch a hog...these dogs can have a short life span due to over heating, drowning or by a big bad boar...these dogs hunting drive is about the same as a good hunting dog such as a good hound or mt cur...they will go deep, get deep under a briar patch where someone can not go in easily and scenarios of these types can get a dog in trouble...must I go into more detail so you can understand what I am talking about...true I do not know much about your style of dog but if I were into them I would strive to have the best and breed in that direction...

How many generations of tight bred dogs of this type have you bred and do they breed true? it is highly unlikely that you get a high percentage of great dogs unless you lucked into someone else's hard work and now you are the know it all expert on how every pup will turn out and I suppose you have grasped it well and have wrapped your head around it...because I reckon all your pups have it in their DNA to automatically know to stay clear of the cutters...what about getting in the thick brush such as blackberry patch 5 acres around after a hog, and can not maneuver in it...well your dogs won't get cut in that situation probably because you don't have a dog with that type of determination to get deep in the briar patch to locate and catch that hog...how about when the hog makes it into a deep dry creek with steep banks and the dog gets pinned between the hog and the bank or between another dog and bank? maybe you have never had your dogs in that situation...a dog can get caught up in that scenario but I reckon your dogs are magical according to your expert opinion...

when you say what you say about your dogs makes me think you have been lucky or are in denial.

What you need to do is understand the question before you speak so you won't have to sound so arrogant... or maybe I just need to give more detail so you can understand what I am talking about due to your lack of experience... ???  ;D  :)

a few weeks ago you made a comment about me not getting to the point and I thought to myself...look who is calling the kettle black...  :)

Your the one that answered the rcd question the guy  asked and used sight  hounds and lurcher in your answere which you have no experience  with, only your perception.    Your the one who comments on everything under the sun as if your the forum expert on ever topic brought up.  Now your a self appointed expert on the dogs I run.  Your arogance  has no bounds!  I comment on things i know, not what i speculate to be true.  Been lots of interest in dogs such as mine lately on this forum and a lot of compare and contrast descussions about such dogs as mine or ones that hunt similar in style so yeah I've had lots of opportunities speak but you don't find me talking on topics  that are out of my relm of good solid knowledge like you are doing. Heck you didn't even  answere the guys question.  You just felt compelled to give a negative  opinion on the guys question and  told him how you do things.  He didn't ask how you did it since you don't run rcd's now did he.    You don't know squat about sight hounds and lurcher but you in your ramblings that never answered the  mans question,  sure managed to make sure and put your negative spin on them too.   You share some decent info on certain things now and then but you ain't  know where near the genius  you make yourself out to be on everything you think you are.    You know more than I, on certain things but not all things.  My dogs is one area you have way over reached.         You haven't a clue as to how good pig sight hounds and lurches hold.   You think they are just a fast bulldog lol.       BS like this and your lack of knowledge about such dogs is very apparent to me when you try to talk about them.  Made very much apparent by comments such as, that they don't do good when chasing pigs in thick thick brush.  You don't understand how such dogs operate.  What the heck about such dogs leads you to believe  they will be needing to chase pigs in thick brush.    Your dogs might chase them in brush but dogs such as mine will have them caught before the chase is initiated.  There are exceptions but no worries, this is where everything about the dogs come together in keeping it safe.     If you don't understand this, I rest my case about you not knowing these such dogs.
     You have made claims that you think the rough dogs and dogs like mine will probably  be the future.  I told you no they would not be.  Why do I not think they will be?   It's because  of self appointed experts like you who don't understand such dogs insist on trying to educate people about them.     Because people look up to you do to your knowledge in other areas, doesn't mean it carries over  to everything, yet when people like you comment on things like this, others take it as factual.  Thus this type of dog will not be understood by most thanks in large part to people like you.
     It's more than just the breed of dog but a lot of traits in certain breeds  help to bring about the entire package in such dogs both mental and physical  characteristics.       When I get to the catch I don't just  go in and stab or tie.  I watch and I video and I watch video.  I spend lots of time looking at what the dogs are doing, their different  styles of holding, the effectiveness of the different styles, what vest suits the individuals style of holding and also which breeds predominantly  hold in which style.  I've done this even before I had the dogs I do now.   I'm not just talking about things I imagine are taking place or that I just speculate  on.   I'm  purposely  setting back and watching and videoing for my own personal  knowledge about my dogs which also allows me to properly educate  others that are curious  about my dogs rather than regurgitating 2nd info or just stuff I've read in a book.  Can you say you have done as I do with dogs such as mine or dogs that hunt in a similar  fashion, no you can not!   Yet by listening to you, you would certainly think so.
    Sir, you want to call it luck that I lucked into such dogs or you want to know if I tight line bred them and have a long history  with these auch dogs.    It didn't take me years upon years to get where I am and the knowledge that I have about dogs.  It's easy for me.    Not my fault it to you so long.  Guess  we would just call you slow and steady.     As in dogs, some progress faster than  others.  Some people take to certain things like a duck to water while others struggle to make sense of it.      We don't all learn at the same rate and some take things a lot farther than others can fathem, that's just the nature of things.  We do not all accell at the same rate.   I realize the tendency  to want to undermine a person for their knowledge because you have so much more  time invested.   The short time it took me to get where I'm at you can look at in two ways but it changes nothing on my end.
     How does  me knowing how to line breed these dogs play into me being able to have such dogs or pertain to my knowledge about them.  You trying to draw me into a tight line breeding discussion is just your way of trying to make up for your incompetency about dogs such as mine.  Same goes for your comment about my handle on here.  You veering off to such childishness is very telling about your ignorance to such dogs and you are scratching  trying to do your best to make me look bad while trying to save face on this topic.
      I'll bite though as I'm  not the front you just took me for.   Tell me what characteristics and gualities you would choose to get dogs that are sight  hound based that hunt and catch their own pigs and do so while staying so injury free.  And to make things interesting since your such a dog breeding no it all and sight hound and lurcher expert, our dog will where nothing but a cut collar it's entire life.    Please tell me with all your infenint  knowledge about dogs such as these, what you would breed to get this  dog that hunts and catches and lives  a long life in nothing but a cut collar.       
    I promise I can answere my own question because of my knowledge about such dogs but you self appointed expert, here is your chance to prove to me and everyone one else you know as much about these kinda dogs as I do!   Good luck!

I guess that falls under the heated debate category

It's the lack of movement that the Garmin is gonna show. When he's sitting at 473 yards pegged for 5 minutes giving and gaining a few yards. 9 times out of 10 he's caught.

black streak...I do not know all that you know about sight hounds...and because my yard isn't large enough I wouldn't keep any...I have been into the dogs for many years and do not have much experience in many breeds but I do know a little about most...now if I lived in open country where I could ride around with my dogs I would keep a few of those sight hounds so I could turn them out on coyote and hog or whatever I wanted  caught...

Yes I do speak my mind in most subjects as I please to do so and I am very opinionated...and in reality this is the first time I have openly retaliated to someone who does not mind being disrespectful...yes I did get out of line somewhat with JP a while back and I should not have said what I said and I did apologize to him and I was very sincere about it...but day in and day out I just keep on trucking and don't pay much attention to the smart remarks...

there are many thing out there that one does not have to experience many times to form an opinion...

and I do agree with something you said...some folks don't have to be in it very long to be long in experience...I totally agree with that...and of those types they only get better with age...

one day I will post a story I have saved since 1981 about a 19 year old guide...really I want others to enjoy it as I have...the second reason is because of the fact that young guys can be wiser beyond their years not to mention it is a dog hunting story...

Ruben i dont mean you any more disrespect than I've already shown you.  I felt like given the circumstances I said nothing inappropriate,  if I over reached in some way then I apologize  to you sir.       
     Reason I even commented initially  yesterday was because I found you disrespectful not only to the man asking the question, as you never answered his question via the two choices  that he give,   but you took time out as well to disrespect me also at the same time.  Who else on this forum do you know that uses sight hounds and lurchers thats active on here.  I took your comments about them as a direct insult and lack of knowledge about my dogs.  Again, you didn't even attempt to answere his question, just used his question to smear rcd's and my dogs.    I wish you would have been more humble and had let someone that successfully  runs rcd dogs answere the man's question.    I stayed humble in that regard and did not reply to the question for the exact reason Leif tried to bring to my attention later afterwards as i realize that my dogs fall under a little different  classification given the general opinion of everyone's  definition  of an rcd on this forum.   I felt like I had the right to come to the defence of my dogs and point out they are way more  than you just made them out to be.   
         This is my explanation  to you Mr. Ruben as to why I said what I did and the following  reply was just in response to your other reply.      If you see me as arrogant  jerk for standing up for my dogs and and dispelling the myths about the good ones that take  to hunting and catching pigs, then so be it.  I'll  proudly correct the falsehoods that get spread about such dogs in my remaining time on this forum.    I wish you the best of luck Mr. Ruben and I hate that things took  the turn they did again  as soon as the question about rcd's was asked.       
   
     Just a side note of my observation  on this forum.    I don't really  see any bigger push  now for rough dogs and rcd's and sight hounds and lurchers and finder holder types than any other time since this forum first originated.   There has normally been someone with such dogs active on this  forum throughout its history.    They don't stay to terribly long on here either.  Not because they have quit hunting, but because of the general misunderstanding of their style of hunting and their dogs.  Another observation that I've seen is that these people normal have shared some of the most insightful and informitive knowledge in many areas and not just about their dogs.  Before I leave this forum, I wish to add to and leave a little insightful knowledge behind in the hopes that when someone comes along with a mind to run this type of dog, they can set themselves on the right track without being derailed and undermined and have the tools necessary  to reassure themselves they are doing right  when other try to tell them bad info.   Listening to speculation on here and bad advice given is a set back at best.  Probably not gonna be anyone active on here that hunts primarily with long dogs and lurchers to help the next person that comes along and they will have to live in the archives too if they are to educate themselves to the point where they can start properly analyzing stuff for themselves.
        Dean

God works in mysterious ways...for several days I was hunting by Mexico and I was using time from Mexico's AT&T and I don't like posting from my phone...then I got home and the internet cable was down until today...time make things better...lol

Do y'all even own dogs or are y'all just in this for the drama and conversation? I bet y'all have to walk a mile to step in a pile of dog number 2.

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Just poking fun by the way lol

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My my hunting to  shoveling crap ratio is quite a bit lopsided to the wrong side...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20151222/0ab194a2f34ac78b6598dfd36224ff80.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20151222/7bdee91c963556fd106679e09dd420b4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20151222/24c446c7a04bdad1e1cc8963834ca818.jpg)  just a few shots of some of the rcd type dogs I run so I am not call a bullnumber 2er. I have been on black streaks yard and have a 3 pups from him. If you have not seen the type of dog he is describing you do not understand.  I run my hairy dogs a hair different than he does I run mine with cur dogs and have had good success with it.   All except one of my dogs are rougher than a cob to full catch. Short range shut it down or come back type dogs.  Not the best dogs maybe but I like them and have caught my share of hogs.

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20151222/7f5cb2746e73c583260950ec6b6bdac5.jpg) older pic but these 3 came from blackstreak. Guys he is not trying to push his style just inform those that don't know. His dogs are rcds they run catch and are dogs.

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I just picked up a cathoula American bulldog cross that I can't wait to see grow and progress

Just spent a week in SW Georgia and met some youngsters who asked if my dog was a "true" Running Catch Dog(RCD), since I only carried one on the truck. I told them no, she was just a Rank Cur Dog, who's job it was to wind, find, stop, and hold her own hog ;)

Sounds like something judge would say

Hey I don't have any that good


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In hawaii there is only really one type of dog we hunt with we call um trackah grabbah they finds pigs and grab um I never heard of a dog only having one job as in one dog finds the pig another barks or bays it and then you lead a dog just to grab or catch it but our pigs are not 400 pounds like in texas I grew up hunting rcds there great but the vet bill can get high if you take to long to get to them and mines always bark and grab they bark when they find the pig but if it try to run or just move in the wrong way they latch on but growl loud so you can find them but the one job dogs are starting to grow on me the way I see it if you want a running catch dog just get a real rough trackah and put a vest on him

I was on the RB board for the first time the other day and I noticed what you are saying that they mainly only mention Trackah grabbah's for sale on it. The way they do it on the islands remind me of the way I read New Zeland does it. With lots of crosses of crosses.  You guys think a dog needs something you just breed to a dog that has it. If it needs grit you add APBT, if you need speed you add a whippet, need nose add hound, handle cat or heeler. With that being said there were a lot of dogs that were 4-8 breeds in it. I think its pretty cool. Its one of my bucket lists to hunt on the islands.

Sounds like a well bred Plott. :-[, lol

That's exactly right we call it a highly scientific breeding selection also know as poi dog,sumah dis n dat  or as mainland guys call um muts just kidding our dogs do have a lot of breeds in um but we use a set off dogs for the place we are going to hunt my dad runs pups from his german Shepherd grayhound bitch over a imported texas cat he hunts a lot of sugar cane open forest and pastures he also has some pups from a pure wippet over that cat for dense stuff I live up in texas now due to military so Mike has taking me out to show me the Texas way and man its growing on me he's got some bad a$$ dogs and yeah they run same type of dogs in nz and a lot in au if u like to watch videos the pig hunting dvd has some good Australia hunts and life's a boar has all the nz stuff I guess we kind of get stuck in our own style kinda like hawaiian style lifted toyotas we run what we run and that's it really closed minded some times but they work for us

lol I like that, scientific breeding. I saw that mentioned Kane dogs and such. I figure it must work or nobody would still be doing it. If it produces pork then your doing something right.

hahaha sounds about right for most of the best working dog breeds, were originally selected for ability and traits and not for looks.

My buddy I hunt with has a half catahoula half dogo from Mr. Douglas Mason. He's only about 3 months but the little dude is feisty. I like him a lot, and I'm sure I'm gonna be the one that ends up training him. If I do I believe I'm gonna teach him to be a lead in catch dog, and after he understands and is hopefully good at his job. I'll start teaching him to hunt on his own. We have a couple bigger rough dogs we could throw a strike vest on and run a catchy pack. I personally own 1 dog who would like to be a running catch dog but he's just too undersized. I hardly use him cause he just makes pigs run. Anything over 200 will have their way whether he is hooked up or not. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160126/fb9bfae71966a8e891033823457b1010.jpg) not to mention he hunts around at 800 yards and has a decent nose and be it every once in a while he finds some 165 lb boar with 3 inch teeth and gets gutted. I'm really just not a fan of him


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 but the little dude is feisty.

 If he's a little dude I hate to be the pig that runs in to your regular size dogs :o lol that is a real nice I dog tho if he's already working pigs he's going to wack um when he gets older

That's a grown dog lol. That's junior. He's the dog I was saying wants to be a RCD but isn't big enough. I don't have a picture of the catahoula dogo puppy or I'd post one. He's  brindle, got a dogo head and chest with the leg of a catahoula. He's only 3 months old


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I have had really good luck with smaller catchy dogs. I know most don't care for them but I do lol


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Im with u judge  100 percent

O I was think dam that a big little guy.i never really minded the smaller rcds I mean our wippet x cats were not big by any means but you get 3 of them on a pig and they woop some pig a$$ but like rcds in general it's all up to the person hunting them if it works for me don't mean it will work for you I just like the small fast type It seamed they are always trying to prove them selfs to be better then big dogs

Hyan that junior dog of mine is 1/8 whippet hound. Brindle cur and a little pit. I might just kick him out with a couple other rough dogs tomorrow and see what he will do. He's been chewing his chain cause he hasn't hunted since he got gutted about 5-6 weeks ago. 


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I don't necessarily agree with wanting small catch dogs for what yall consider the job of RCDs nor do I think it's a grand idea to be deliberately crossing bay dog breeds to catch dog breeds in order to obtain what's considered an RCD by most on here.       To me, both of these ideas is just putting more hurdles in front of the dog for the dog to overcome.  It is just my opinion but I think most people breed this way to get faster catch dogs and ones with better stamina because they either are not familiar with other types of catch type breeds that would be better suited for such a job and crossing to or they don't know where to obtain access to them or both.        
     I also think that it is this type of dog that turns a lot of people off to them do to frequent bad experiences had by them.  Not all the negative opnion of them are directly related to the type of dog used as an RCD but how they are hunted and what's paired with them also contributes to bad experiences with them as much as the other to make it double the potential trouble.
       To me, if a dogs job is to catch a pig, be it a lead in dog or an RCD it needs to be a catch dog through and through or else why put the C in RCD.     Makes no sense to me either why some people will heavily vest their lead in catch dog with 4 layers of armer but the RCD they run has half the layers of protection.   Reason for this is better movement usually but isn't the RCD exposed to the same risks as the lead in for much longer periods of time when running an RCD the way most do?  Could this be the reason people had rather breed out so much catch out of the catch dog they call RCDs, so they really aren't catch dogs but rather really gritty dogs that will not catch all hogs the way their lead ins will?            Another thing about vests and small Rcd's vs big ones is the small dog needs much more coverage by the vests.   A good hog can better hook a small dog further back than it can a taller longer stouter dog.   This extra coverage needed over a larger dog relults in more and quicker heat build up and less freedom of movement and manuverability.
    Now take the small RCD caught on a good hog vs a much larger dog.   Isn't it easier for the hog to enforce it's will on a small dog caught on the ear verses a larger dog if all things are equal?  I'd say so!  Wouldn't it be much better for a catch dog that's gonna be caught longer than a lead in, to be of better strength and size so the pig can't enforce it's will on the dog since the dog is left to handle the pig longer than the typical lead in dog?  I'd think so again.    
     If a fast catch dog is what tickles your fancy, wouldn't it make sense to breed catch dogs from catch breeds that would yeild a better suited catch dog for the purpose of running pigs down and catching them rather than breeding rougher bay dogs?      
      I personally don't think the typical RCD used by most is fast enough to be considered what I would think of as an RCD but there is no set speed requirement that I'm aware of.  I think it's more of a style than speed that a lot of guys refer to.     In my personal  view, a catch dog that barely keeps pace with a typical bay dog would not be considered a running catch dog either.     Crossing a Catahoula  to a bulldog isn't gonna give a hole lot of speed.     I think of a running catch dog as a dog that decisively over takes a fast pig, not one that struggles to close the distance or keep pace.  This inturn will allow the pig to get to a preferred spot to turn and fight rather than be caught as the dog dictates.   Course if your running bay dogs with an RCD, you have already disregarded this anyway and give the advantage to the pig.
     I'm not trying to create drama here by going against the general flow of things here, just my thoughts and views to added to the conversation.  Maybe it will make sense to some but I'm sure others will not see it as such.         In the end who cares what label a dog falls under or what Joe Blow calls his dog.    If he wants to call his chiweenie an rcd then it's his dog and he can call it what he wants.    We all have different standerds and veiws.   This is just mine.    
    

Hell of a write up black streak. You make a lot of great points. I said some of the same stuff to a friend the other day about the whole RCD thing involving my junior dog. That dog has the "want to" factor. And the speed and most certainly the bite to make what I believe to be a proper(bad choice of word but can't think of better) and effective running dog that catches and holds any pig he comes across. All that I have come to decide he lacks is mere size. At about 45 pounds, to me, I don't care how much this dog WANTS to effectively catch a 250 lb boar. He just isn't big enough to do it. And I won't take anything away from the dog because his weight to strength ratio is pretty ridiculous but try as he might, even if he stays hooked on the ear, if that big hog want to run. Junior is going with him. He ain't near heavy enough to anchor one.


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Black streak I will agree with what your saying it's hard to disagree when you go to a 80 lb dog that has a 200 lb hog by him self. But I just like smaller dogs even tho I have one big dog 80 plus he is a hogs nightmare at the same time he rarely beats the smaller dog. Do yo the area I hunt which is deep creek bottoms with thick under brush then wide open then back to the brush. But I never call my dogs rcd to me that is a different animal. And I am with you on not crossing bay to catch makes no sence to me


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Good post Blackstreak, I think you make a lot of very good points as well. I agree with you and that is why I want Whitley for exactly those reasons. She hopefully will have the ability to end those races before they really even get started. Also another thing I noticed in my very short limited hunting experience is a tall dog of any type has a big advantage for how he can hold a pig and shoulder up with one. And since I don't want my little strike dog to catch at all and get wrecked and I don't have the ability to run 4+ dogs at once I need that speed and size on my RCD.

Now if I was hunting in areas like some of the videos I seen in Hawaii or New Zealand that is beyond high and thick, I would prob run 3+ short range straight catch dogs like a lot of them do, like the bulldog whippets cat or heeler mixes with a real big dose of bulldog in them, they run a lot of those type mixes from what the couple of shows I have seen said. I have seen them have to go to ground too for a hog in a few times in the New Zealand vids, pretty crazy. 

Now if I did have a smaller RCD that I wanted to use like you Slim I would definitely strategically group it with either another RCD too, and only short range dogs that way like Blackstreak mentions it wouldn't have to anchor one as long. Still preferably though with another RCD, and it wouldn't hurt if those short range bay dogs were gritty too. Just my two cents take it for what its worth.

I got a couple rougher dogs that'll catch if he hooks up. Thinkin about cutting them loose around 2 this afternoon and seeing if I can catch something. My luck it'll be the rankest boar on this place that they go find. I agree rednose it's all about know your dogs and pairing them accordingly. I'll be the first to tell you I own 7 dogs and only one of them can I watch the Garmin and tell you when she fixing to strike and if it's a good hog and the bad thing is I've had this dog for the least amount of time of any of my others. She's just my best so I constantly pay attention to her. Plus she doesn't hunt hard but she hunts smart and if she gets any farther than about 250 yards from me. You better start walking cause it's gonna be a pig. With that being said I just haven't figured out how to pair my dogs to effectively use my junior dog


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Although I prefer my cur dogs in the 60 to 70 lb. range, I have fed a few in the 40 to 50 lb. range. Most would be amazed at what a 40lb, smart catching, stock bred cur dog can "anchor" ;)

Warren to agree 100 % I got a 42 lb and a 50 lber that will make a be leaver out of ya


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Warrent stupid phone lol


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Judge I started to text you and tell you the direction I really wanted my post to go and the people whom I was trying to reach and give thought to but I figured I'd put it her for all to see because most of my interesting information sharing and gathering is done in texts or calls and no one but the two of you ever know the interesting stuff being shared and learned, so I deleted what I had started and decided to put it on here because I'm not doing it for myself or you, I'm doing it for guys like me when I was searching for a good foundation of knowledge regarding a similar dog to and RCD.
         Judge eventhough you don't consider your dogs as RCDs, by a lot of peoples opinions, they are.   You have teams of them you hunt with, much like the Hawaiian guys.  I think it's very similar style but it's a great style.  Yall do it proper with your really rough dogs and your dogs really work well together.      You love the dogs you have and their style because it's who you are and the style you love.  You also stay true to breeding catch breeds to catch breeds in order to make better catch dogs and vice versa with the bay dogs. I really like that!     
     As I said earlier I wasn't trying to reach guys like you and share my thoughts with you (eventhough I love discussing dogs of any kind with you and a few others and find it really rewarding) I was trying to add thought to the guys running packs different than yours and wanting to add an rcd.        I believe that an rcd type dog requires a different kind of responsibility and a good type rcd changes the dynamics of the situations people will soon uncovere.  It is my personal opinion that most are probably not used or really rather paired correctly.   I'm not gonna sit here and tell people how to hunt their dogs according to me but really my purpus was to describe a type of dog that would hopefully work better for them rather than crossing a cat to a bull and going for broke and then developing a bad taste in their mouth for rcd's and rough dogs in general.     
    Judge since you don't consider yourself as having RCDs, but to me and what I know about your style, you hunt with a team of them and do it well.    I personally don't think a dog like one of mine would add anything to what and how you already hunt.        However, as a result of reading this forum from basically the beginning to now, I get the feeling that most guys when entering into the RCDs  in an effort to stop races, will usually only try their hand at running 1 rcd with there pack.   I personally cringe  at this again I might make a suggestion but  I'm not gonna tell people how to hunt.  What I'm basically trying to do with my prior post is give these people a little more of something to think about than just crossing a  bay breed to a catch breed or purchasing such a dog in hopes it put a stop to their races.     I never knew of the kinda catch dogs I have today when you and I first met and I don't think many people still know of them or understand them.      But they are here and they are an option and their are tons of great foundation dogs people are breeding on here that you could essentially cross a good coyote stag to and get in my opinion a much better suited dog to fulfill the requirements of most wanting an rcd .      Most of these guys are only gonna run 1 rcd with their pack and not hunt with an entire pack of rcd's.     I think  they are setting that dog up for failed and hard times no matter how good it's bred or its natural talent is but by gosh I'm gonna try to describe my opinion of an rcd in hopes it helps them obtain their goal lol.          Their are proper ways to run rcd's I think.    I would think the smaller the rcd the better it would be to have multiple  dogs on a pig and by multiple  I mean 3 or so on a good pig.   I hunt by myself and I don't want no more than 2 of my dogs on a pig.  They are big stout dogs and 2 is plenty.   For smaller rcd packs I would really want that 3rd dog on an elbow or ham.   That 3rd dog really really really robs a pig of its ability to reek havoc, plus that 3rd dog on the ham or elbow will usually get a silent boar squeeling like a siren and that's pretty easy to run to lol.     
    Before I go, I'd like to share some of my opnion as to why I personally don't care for crossing bay dogs to catch dogs.  First off I know there are good dogs out there and also good things have come from this such as the  Cambells  and such but those are long lines of dogs and I'm not talking long lines of selective bred dogs, I'm referring to general crossing of one to the other and their offspring as well.          First up would be the sight hounds.  You'll gain your speed by crossing to this but they really aren't hard enough to carry their hardness through when diluted to a bay dog the way a pit does.     These dogs would probably work well when run in packs.      Crossing a pit to a cat, what's that really doing for you?  You don't have as hard a catch dog as you started with and it isn't quite as fast as the cat.    You got a catch dog that can keep up with a fast boar but not over take him and even if he did, this dog probably won't be able to hold a good boar long before it's had enough.   Put a good protective vest on this dog and you have slowed it down much more.  Don't give this dog good protection and you have done him dirty.       Give an rcd to much hunt and your catching pigs to far off with a dog that's really not designed for such catching.    Breed one outstanding crossed up dog to another and probably not gonna have anything close to as good the parents are.      This is quick and really simplified  version of why I think this.  I didn't go into thought process, difference catching style and differences in holding styles, working characteristics, bay busting, endurance, hunt drive, prey drive etc etc when crossing these dogs with one another and what you would loose and what you would gain.   That's  my kinda topic though but would be way to much to dicuss right now for me.         I don't just know catch dogs like the ones I have, I know a lot about other breeds of dogs but catch dogs are where my heart is.   I just run the kind that suits me and my style  like they way Judge runs whats suits him and and runs the dogs his heart belongs to.    Many different  ways to run really rough dogs of different sizes and breeds  but there are many many ways to do it unsuccessfully.  I respect and admire them all no matter their abilities or handicaps.        Just like descussions them and sharing my thoughts and opinions to those interested.      And for what it's worth to you guys like Judge, I like your curs that catch too, just won't find me breeding to one although if it could do the job well, I'd run it lol.
     

Black streak you are right on the smaller dogs but why does a dog have to catch on the ear to be a catch dog or have to be a certain breed wolfhound great dane mastiffs all of these dogs could be catch dogs but the most common dogs that are consider catch dogs are ab dogos or pits a german Shepherd could be a catch dog they have size mu smaller dogs don't hunt miles away they run 100 to 200 yard loops we walk hunt in the mountains I can't lead a bull dog for 5-10 miles then pack a pig out while holding on to a dog at the same time also they grab ass until I get there then call um off the ass to the ear so I can poke the pig if.my dogs use chest plates not full vest and yes some people like to put tons of kelar on there vest but I don't why because I am not letting my dog hold a pig for a lot of time as soon as they get on the head I got the legs I run grayhound German Shepherd x over cat these are all bigger then a bulldog I also run wippet x cat they are smaller dogs but will out run almost any pig or dog for that matter but again the smaller dogs only run a short way the long out they go the longer I have to pack out the pig that's why I don't like mile dogs also can you run a bulldog 3 days in the mountain catching pigs walking miles pulling around a person up and down hill and catching pigs I am not knocking bull dogs I just got one to hunt in texas but that's because it's a different type of hunting also if I am hunting open pastures on a bike I can be on my small dogs and pig fast so there isn't to much damage done if any it's just a point of view of someone that does run small dogs and does catch pigs and needs that type of dog to catch good pigs and my dogs will grab anything but like I said only on the ass till I get there I am not trying to be a smart ass know it all 

Good write up buddy. Ya a rcd is a different beast I don't think many people can understand what the difference is between these dogs but there is a big difference. When a guy is looking for a rcd to me says he don't have much grit in his pack but will bay most hog easily. So they think throwing a rcd out there solves it nope this just makes things worse. Cuz your hanging that one dog out to dry with no help. Now add that dog to few rough dogs that will catch problem solved. But your basic cd will not make a rcd. This is why they try to mix pit and what have ya in my thinking your just going backwards. The dogs you have are totally different more off a style of catching then heavy jaw catching big difference I have always said if you think you have a rough or rcd or what ever you can find out if you take him out with just one other dog you will know right fast the kind of dog it is 


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when hunting spots are all thick briars and palmettoes and the only good openings are the small roads or pipelines then a true running catch dog just won't be very effective...his life span will be short If he is of the type that will use his nose to stick with it or if he will run as long as it takes to catch, especially in places where the hogs are dog smart...

I will probably never own a RCD because of the places we hunt...I like gritty to rough cur dogs that are border line RCD's...meaning a type of dog...whether alone are in a pack to stop and even catch a hog but to have the since to back off and bay before he over heats or gets beat to death by a big boar...that is my goal...I bred and raised gritty mt curs in the 55-60 pound range for many years and they were close to what I have described... back then I hunted some woods that were fairly open in the winter and a hog was caught is his bed or in the woods usually where they came up on him or in a short race...The dogs took care of themselves and sometimes would get hurt usually by getting caught between a dog, tree, steep bank or just plain ole thick brush, where a dog could not maneuver and get caught between that and a bad boar...not that often but once in a while is too much if it is a crippling hit...but I will also say that these dogs were bay busters in certain situations...these dogs had enough sense to not go in if they knew they were going to take a hit and maybe too cautious at times...in these situations where the dogs can't set up because of the thick briars the hog will break and run...these types of terrains make it hard to catch hogs especially if the hogs are dog smart...the hog gets way out in front in these thick places and the dogs will have to trail and sometimes the dogs will have to circle to find the track because of losing the track at times...all this is definitely to the hogs advantage.  he will run hard and set up and rest in the next thick jungle...I like a dog that can get out there quick and trail one up or wind one, a dog that can make it look easy finding a hog because it is just as important as stopping one...

my heart is in the rough cur dogs that can be turned out with any dog and always look good against any dog...that is the goal...
but finding the exact dog that can breed true to my liking is very hard to obtain because it is a fine line...in my minds eye the dog should be almost a RCD but smart about not getting hurt...A true RCD if he bails out into the river while caught solid has the potential to drown. he also has the potential to over heat if he is deep in the woods caught on a big boar and possibly out of range to track...or the hog gives a good hit because of the duration of being caught...the chances of the average catch dog getting hurt goes up by the second or minute...that is why so many people turn their catch dogs into the bay from less than 100 yards and some wait until they know exactly where the hog is bayed before turning the dog...these folks are doing their dogs right...they are putting their dogs health above catching a hog...

I do have one 1/2 hound 1/2 pit , 2 brothers that are 1/4 pit and 4 pups that are 1/8th pit and I like all of them fairly well...all look much like cur/hound...

as already mentioned...we all have our preferences and will stick by them and make the changes until we are at or close to our goals...

a good running catch dog in the places I hunt might work after the dogs have ran one for a few hours and then turn him in to hammer down...

The key to a running catch dog is it stops the running. This is my point of view and will catch under any condition any thing less is not a rcd


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I agree...

Reuben that's kinda my point you can't run rcds because they will get kill fast and you won't catch to much pigs due to the type of place you hunt I have bin with Mike in some of the nastiest crap I have ever hunted and my dogs would have got there asses killed because of how far Mikes dogs can track and keep a hog at bay for hours so we can take the time to get to them and lead a dog in in hawaii you don't have that type of hunting the way I see it no mater what if you have a dog that hunts there a huge chance it can get killed weather it be a hog or a disease or hell chasing a hog in to the dam road n getting hit by a car but I will never ever run my dogs with dogs that dog grab period because like judge said they get hung out and get killed I will say there is a ton of information on this Web site and thank Mike for making it and you guys read all my side of the story

A cross or a mutt. But if you have crossed it to hunt hogs and it does what you want then it's a hog dog. Just becuz you cross those dogs which way or another don't make it a rcd only performance. I mean heck if you used a lab and it never bayed and always caught under any circumstance then it's a rcd. Yes it's breed is bird dog but it's a rcd under the term. 


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 This is pretty much what I was lead to believe when I first started out but have discovered different.     Not all RCDs  are created equal and some have the jobs of working for contract guys who make a living off catching pigs with them in exactly the scenarios you just described they aren't fit to work in or couldn't.     
        The RCD types I see here a lot and see how they are paired often times leads people to this conclusion.    When analyzing the situations they are hunted in, I'd say your analysis isn't to far off but the mistake in the analysis is your analyzing  poorly thought out dogs with the most extreme of hunting style on top of the dogs being hunted / paired poorly.  Their are dogs bred to do this work, just a different style of hunting and type of dog than your used to.   
      To say an RCD type dog can't effectively  and efficiently do the things you say they can't and do it with only few injuries through their long lives and hard working careers is like saying a black mouth cur is only good for bay pen work.      These dogs are out there but your just not familiar with them.
   

damn,ive been hunting hogs here in california for over 39 years and some of the dogs are a 10 way cross or more and not one of em that ran loose and catches solid as a bulldog and never lets go all the time.. how the hell are we  doin it,lol. the dog part is true but im just funnin . this thread is interesting.  gary

There are Cur breeds that are inherently catchy cracker Curs for example many who own them have never owned a bulldog and don't need several to catch a hog.Many can do it all alone and 2 can definitely get the job done. Same goes with the Cambells I own these dogs originated as crosses but have been fine tuned and line bred for a long time. They may not be Rcds but are damn close these are a couple of dogs I run.So I will run a Rcd on the ground with a couple of these dogs and it works really well. Doesn't matter where I put them out either ain't never seen these magical hogs that are uncatchable when people say that a Rcd won't work here or won't work there.A hog is a hog and there are many ways to catch a hog that work and a properly used Rcd can definitely be an asset rather than a liability. I would never put a Rcd on the ground with dogs I wasn't positive would catch hard and till the end with him.In my opinion there are a couple types of hog hunters and hog dogs there's the find em catch em fast type or the find em run the wind out of em then catch em both ways have the same desired ending just a different approach. When running a rough pack paired with a true Rcd then things gain a sense of urgency and intensity. Although I don't think that you loose more dogs this way you do have to get to them as quickly as possible no matter what.

     Will be interesting to see what Whitely does for you for sure.   She is an onry thing to her two bigger brothers.  She wears them out.  Always wanting to play fight with them and always the head and their ears lol.   Anytime I have a different pup out than her and I put them back in the pen with her she emmediatly greets them with an ear hold or a head lock lol.     She loves to run and her stride is already very graceful looking and effortless but of course this will only continue to get better as her body matures.       She will deffenitly be an interesting dog by the time she is 18 months old with the grit she has now.        I socialize her as much as I can but when she gets comfy and starts playing, she is a pest to most dogs the way she just swamps there head and ears.  New dogs to her don't care for that but her brothers are so much like her also that it's no big deal.  They are one another's best friends.    Look out side the kitchen window and you will often see 3 pups caught on one others ear or head and all 3 walking round and round like the spokes of a faris wheel lol.       Don't know how that's gonna play out on your yard lmao.  You might be in for a disaster
       I'll tell you something funny about me and my older dogs, both the stag and finder holders.    I'll let them out of their big pens to stretch out 1 at a time.  After about the 5th or 6th lap around all the pens at about 30 mph it won't be much longer and they will slow down and go exploring so I'll just take a knee and call the dog to me.  Shortly there after I have about 80 lbs of mass screaming at me at 30 mph and it don't look like it's gonna pull up before it gets to me.  That's a lot of momentum baring down on you.  About the time I'm  absolutely sure it's to late and I'm flinching and bracing for impact, the dog stops in my lap and is expressing it's happiness, love and affection.   Now and then one will not get it shut down in time and will hit me hard enough to knock me over lol.    I love it and they know I do.   They aren't allowed to jump on me with their feet though.     After playing with that dog outside the pen for a minute, in it goes and I'll let another out.     
    When I walk in the pens no matter if it's the pen of older dogs or pups, I've learned to keep my jaw gently clinched or they will undoubtedly pop my teeth together with their heads as they are running and jumping around and over one another and up against me.     So long as they don't put their feet on me I'm happy.     
    When  gone, my wife feeds them through holes I cut out in the panels above their feed dishes that hang on the fence.        I love being home and hunting or playing with them.

I don't see it as anything that I cannot correct if I feel it becomes a problem. A little time spent goes a long with dogs. I'm really excited to get her, and really excited about getting out there to Texas in general and meeting up with you. Hopefully we can get out on a hunt or something too while I'm out there. Would love to see Lapua and your other dogs in action. I really like how you describe Whitley and how she is really coming along. I am finding more places out here that she will be perfect for. But I plan on giving her time to mature into her body, and get used to how I do things. Also looking at adding some more rough dogs to run with her.

Text me or call me when you have some time to talk dogs my friend.