EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

For me...there are only two types of hog dogs in each category...

hog dogs and culls...it doesn't matter if it is a help dog or a strike dog or a catch dog, running catch dog, lurcher type or whatever...

there is no in between...either it is or it isn't...to many people sell a cull and say it is lightly started when in fact the possibility is greater that it is a cull...but these folks only want back what they paid for the dog and some actually think they are doing you a favor because they are not charging extra for wormings, vaccines and feed bill...but dogs of this type are already culls but the seller is in denial...I reckon if they are in denial they won't have to admit to themselves that they are about to screw someone out of their hard earned money...just do the right thing and place the dog in a pet home...  ;)

A me too dog...there is a place for a me too dog in a pack if you need a specialty dog...maybe you have a good strike dog that bays well but has a hard time stopping a runner...and the me too dog does not hunt alone or will not find a pig...but he will follow the strike dog to hell and back if he needs to but lets say he excels in stopping hogs...so now John Doe is catching hogs and he is happy and the seller is happy and it is a win win for those involved...

but don't sell a me to dog as a help dog if all he brings to the table is some barking at a hog...if he doesn't stop a pig and all he is good at is to follow the hog dog around and his only contribution is barking at a pig then he shouldn't be put up for sell...do the right thing and place him in a pet home...  ;) please don't screw folks out of there hard earned money...

If the pup is 10 months old and truly has not been given a chance say so...if you are a dog man with hunting dog experience you will already have a clue as to what the pup might be some day...so do the right thing and be honest...

same as with a catch dog...either it is a catch dog or it is a cull...one or the other and no in between...if he comes in and catches solid every time he is able when the bay dogs have one bayed then he is a catch dog...but if most the time he catches solid only when the bay dogs initiate the catch then he is a cull...so do the right thing...

same thing with a RCD...

I don't want a RCD but I do want a very catchy strike dog that stops one and then holds one if needed and backs off and bays if the hog is sitting still...just working smart...

When I am asked about someone giving away a 1 or 2 year old dog I will tell them that more than likely it is a cull...you are way better buying and older dog out of a good line and then breeding it and culling through the pups...you will be a lot happier and it will be well worth the expenditure and it is just a labor of love...or just go out and buy 2 or 3 pups and hope that one or 2 will make good to great dogs...but at least you will have the same chance as anyone else for picking a good one...but those lightly started dogs that need a few more hunts or have found there own hog 3 times in six months...you are better off staying away from those folks that are trying to screw you out of your money...and that includes those that put on their rose colored classes so they can feel better about themselves when they are taking your money while getting rid of another mouth to feed...a win win for the seller...but a screwing for the buyer...

I've been wanting to say this for a looong time...just trying to look out for the newer folks...

there are honest folks out their...but there are almost as many who want your money while getting rid of a dog that falls a little short on potential...

Well said Reuben. I got burned awhile back by a seller on here. Claimed the dog was a strike dog and turned out pure cull! There should be a section on this forum to call out bad sellers. 50% my fault for not seeing the tale tale signs rite off hand. " he needs to hunt with you more" and " maybe he needs to get used to the terrain" those remarks should of thrown up a red flag for me. Lesson learned!

I have never been burned buying or receiving culls. Each was what I expected or more. I will not buy a good dog or great dog. 

Here's why.

A man selling a good dog or a great dog has motive to lie and talk the dog up to get more money.

A man that has a cull and calls it such wants a cull price to free. He will have far more bad to say about the dog than he does good. At that point I'm deciding how much if any I'm willing to throw out the window. When I make that decision I'm never disappointed. Surprised maybe on a good note but not disappointed. I knew going in what the probable outcome may be. I have a few culls right now that do a fine job. Those dogs only cost me time and effort with some food. Time was within expectations.

Now would anyone else here feed my dogs? Well probly not. But that's fine by me cause I feed em and am kinda partial to em.


Shotgun
Arkansas

I completely agree Reuben have given away dogs I paid good money for and tell all faults and flaws before the good.

I have found very few people sale good dogs unless you know them and pester them lol. Any dog can be good or bad or fit you worse or better than the other fella. Lot of times I have seen this a guy gets a decent dog say 400 bucks and can find a pig if there around then he catches a few builds up a reputation on a few hunts and talks the dog up. Then sales to his buddy or unknown fella for 700. Then buys a better dog and repeats the cycle until he gets a good dog for a low investment this is the dog hustle. Hey I got a good dog for for sale he is this he is that I am asking 1250 but I will take 1000 today lol used car tactic lol or I don't care if I sale it then why are you advertising lol. If a fella always has dogs for sale he might be legit but more than likely he ain't. Jmo 


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Good post here Ruben! Lots of truth to be said here... To add, what some sell not as a cull may be a cull in someone else's eyes. I always try to keep that in mind whenever I home a dog. Not everyone is going to like what you like, so some of the dogs good traits that you think are selling points may not just be that.

EK, I will push back a little bit here on your statement, and it's JMO... But if you take any dog from anyone from anywhere else other than your back yard the dog is going to have an obvious adjustment period 9 times out of 10. Now I'm not saying that gives excuse to the dog in question not doing what the seller said at all, but I would most certainly expect any dog from anywhere other than where you're currently hunting to have to adjust to different pack, different terrain, different handler, ect... That's just part of the game.

I had a gyp that was pretty well bred, had a lot of time in her, she'd found hogs and was a decent dog. She just didn't fit in with our pack and our plan anymore... So I asked around and found a kid that was interested in her... 150 bucks. Fair price IMO. Anyways, I asked the kid to keep in touch... I always like to keep in touch with where any dogs off my yard go. So I told the kid, she's pretty timid, so get her used to you before you just grow her in the woods... Idk if he did or not, but two weeks later he calls me and says she won't hunt. I laughed and said yeah, I knew you'd be calling. I told you she was timid bud...  Just be patient and spend some time with her. I never heard from him so I called him back about a month later and asked how the dog was doing. He said "man, I love that bitch. She's hunting good now and even found me a hog the other day. I appreciate it man... " I said good I'm glad that u like her now... She'll get better too just be patient. So, there are some circumstances of adjustment for most dogs that go to completely different homes/areas. Called him about a year later and he said the bitch died from something weird, and walked out to her dead on her chain. Sucks... But nonetheless a story that I think makes my point. RIP Bit.

That dog I got burned on has been with me for 4-5 months now. I put him in a pack that I threw together buying from sellers on this site. Every dog I bought except that one needed no adjustment time. Day one all dogs except that one hunted exactly the way their previous owners claimed. Now I am with you that some dogs need adjustment time etc. and it's my fault for buying him and keeping him. The dog was falsely represented and I over paid for sure. He hasn't changed at all.

Then yeah, you may have gotten burned. May I ask how much you paid for said dog?

I take that back... One dog was from Louisiana another from Fredricksburg and another from Around Dekalb Tx. The only adjustment those 3 needed was for their pads to get used to the sandy ground down here in STexas.

Paid 700$. He was sold as a hood dog. He's a bumper dog.. Always on the bumper. I put him on the hood and he jumped off and went to the bumper lol. He will honor a bay. He will catch only after the other dogs do. He's gunshy as can be. I keep running him though and feeding him cause I keep hoping he will turn on like the rest of the pack. Plus I lost two good dogs this month so I am in a bind for dogs.

Dangit... Yeah, I would have to say that I would have probably wanted to see the dog hunt before I forked out 700 bucks... To me that's a lot of money, but I'm just a poor ol country boy. Lol sorry u got burned man... Hopefully lesson learned. Happy hunting.

Reuben you can preach until your blue in the face but its my experience few will listen and even fewer care.   The point is folks gave to have pride.   Pride that they don't supply the hunting world with junk, pride that they helped the dogworld by culling something that was useless,  pride that if they do sell a dog that it will make the new owner proud.     Not enough "pride" in the dogworld today IMO.   

oconee you hit the nail on the head brother, I once had a guy working for me that said , man goose I ain't ever seen anybody that can just shoot a dog you raised from a pup or cut a calf that looks good, he thought I was sick in the head when I told him I actually get a since of pride in doing so, his response was you sick daddy didn't marry mommy, I said no it's my job to continue improving and doing my part to the dog world and the Beefmaster breed to only keep the best and cull the rest, I feel like it's my responsibility to do so, there are SO MANY culls out there that are being peddled just as Ruben described it's my job to make sure that I'm not contributing to any of those slick deals. I certainly don't have the best but I can pride myself knowing that what I got is the result of culling, culling, culling, keeping, culling and culling some more. To many people want to try to break even on a 200$ dog they bought and it just causes more 200$ culls being thrown around the sport, not saying all cheap dogs are culls because of the ones I've bought over the years I've never given over 500 a round for one, not saying I won't but I haven't had to.

a great dog wont ever be advertised for sale, it will be sold in a matter of no time from what i have seen. and another thing i have seen is the seller really does think he has a hog dog for sale and the buyer thinks its junk just two different opinions on hog dogs, alot of overnight hog hunters go out and buy junk dogs for a low price get lucky and catch one or two hogs and then decide to quit but since they think them dogs caught a few sick cripple hogs their worth a pile of money now. but its not their fault they never got to see a good dog work and help them realize what their feeing before they decided to high price them and sell out. and people get attached to their dogs quick and that dont help any in the dog hunting world either

The main problem is these guys coming in to the sport with a pocket full of money and want to be the man right off no matter what you say or do this is going to keep going the way it is going. And on the point of culling to me culling and killing are the same thing if you are culling a lot then your probly breeding way to to much and to fast. If you have a litter of ten and cull 9 out of the ten guess what his DNA is the same as the others whether or not that the dog can or can't be a good dog or the best out there but he can reproduce what was culled.


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Between me and my buddies, we have 4 dogs that total cost comes out to $1,000 the rest of the dogs were given to us. 1 we paid for was our bulldog, he's good for us I'm happy with him. $300 of that my buddy shelled out for a jagd that I absolutely hate and is not what the guy said it was. $400 was shelled out by my buddy for a good gyp from an old friend of mine and we like her. And $150 for a pit pup from the same guy and she's still young. We've spent even more money on dogs that didn't make the cut for us. We had 4 dogs we culled, not sold, culled. We have sold 2 dogs, 1 was a big blue pit that caught good but fought with our other catch dog. And the other was the first dog I ever got and I sold her cheap because she's seen hogs, will bay hogs in woods. But is still too puppy and doesn't get out and hunt. I'm not gonna sell someone something I'm nt comfortable with my name being attached to, I have to much pride in my name

I agree...if culling 9 pups out of ten from a litter...then more than likely it is in the DNA...someone who wants to breed better dogs with a higher percentage of pups making the cut...then that person needs to look for well bred dogs to start out with...

I would rather breed to a cull that comes from a long line of great hunting dogs than to one great dog out f a long line of culls...

more than likely the cull from a long line of great hunting dogs will produce a good percentage of good pups...I wouldn't breed to that cull a second time but I would focus more on his offspring...


on the other hand that one great dog from a long line of culls will throw a high percentage of culls...it would take years to clean up that gene pool...so why not start with a good line of dogs...

   

 Very well said and I very much agree!!!

There are some really good dogs out there that where culls at one point for some one with a set goal but made outstanding for some one else with other thoughts


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Its attitudes and beliefs like that Judge that have folks feeding junk with the hopes it will turn around.    I had a very well respected houndman tell me that once you deem one a cull and end his existence it will never prove you wrong.   The point is, sone rare specimens do come around but the percentage is so low that you'll ALWAYS be money and time ahead to cull and move on.    Now if a guy refuses to cull and trades the dog around or gives it away then it just might make someone a barnburner and you'll second guess yourself next time and feed a junker until its 3 yrs old.    I have given several dogs away that were too good to cull and just didn't quite suit my style but you can bet your butt none of my culls will ever resurface to make my decision look wrong.

I ain't saying your wrong if the dog ain't doing it ya it's time to go. But if there is something there just but you just ain't feeling it I don't see nothing wrong with placing the dog with some one who will do the right thing. Not all dogs are good that is a fact


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Can't agree more with this be honest fellas I've placed a bunch in pet homes ;-)  this year due to someone else thinking they may be more than a cull

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It all goes back to that "pride" thing I talked about.   No mattee what, a man's name will become connected to a dog that passes through his yard.   I hunted with a female I had given away a few years ago and the guy was pleased with her and I had not seen her since she was a puppy and the night he joined me and another buddy I was so embarrassed to see that dog hunt that night that I spent and traded everything I had to get my hands on  to get her back.     I let on like I wanted her back for breeding but truth is I wanted to end him haulin her around thinkin she was good and tellin everyone who she came from.    And I did!!    I vowed from that day on I would NEVER have to worry about that happening again.   And it won't!!!

Lol that's funny


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not long ago a young man on this site mentioned he had a good young dog coming on strong and then became a cull because he started barking on track...if that makes a dog a cull then all my dogs will be culled...so it is personal preference...

others cull because a young dog or even an older dog are trashy...I call those diamonds in the rough  :)

JP...I agree with what you said...however...if you like a certain style of dog whichever it may be then breed the very best and as best you can for that style...lord knows we have enough culls out there getting bred...

one thing for sure...if you don't like culling then breed the very best within a family of dogs...and the chances of producing a high percentage of good dogs go up to include 100 percent in some cases...they may not all hunt exactly the same but they will hunt...the job of the breeder is to keep the very best that fit in the breeding program...so they in turn can do their part in producing true...breeding better dogs is easy f you know what you are doing...the hardest part is finding some good dogs to start with...

Judge..from your past writings I don't think you would do well as a great dog breeder...I don't mean it in any bad way...you seem to be a very lenient kind of fellow and I don't see being that way...to be very helpful when breeding better dogs...but what confuses me about you is that you are a cabinet maker...that to me tells me you are a very detailed person...I could never do it...I wish I could build awesome cabinets...lol

Lol Ruben when I build a cabinet I have total control in what I am doing bad and good. When breeding dogs you can only control some things this takes yrs. I am very picky bout my dogs I have set standards just like every one else I place a sharp eye on my dogs but I don't hold short comings into hate. Like I have said before if your culling a lot it does not mean you have better dogs or better practice but it does mean you breed more. There are many sides to this game. I have culled when needed I have no problem with that. But I think some people get carried away with that thinking that is a cure all well it's not. And as far as pride goes every one has pride in there dogs but if you haven't seen top level then you don't know any better. But to answer what you said I ain't a dog breeder don't claim to be lol the best dogs pop up there not planed good averages are planed


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I wish making a great line of dogs was as easy as making a fancy cabinet then I could be a super star hog dogger lol.


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While we're on the subject, I don't think Judge would make a good breeder either.

Glad that you fellas are such a authority on what I can and can't be lol what a joke and this is why you are nothing of consequence to me your statements are all the same BS. Over and over. Why don't you ever have any thing good to say you must be a miserable little fella.


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I have been a member of this site for some time. I have really enjoyed the conversation and even some disagreements. The arrogance as of late is getting nearly too much to bare. Sad to see the way it is turning.


Shotgun
Arkansas

My lord it never stops how in the world can you guys say that Judge wouldn't be a good dog breeder? Doesn't anyone care how they come across to the rest of the bird

Board

Judge I'm very sorry to have read what I just did.      I was unaware that to breed a good set of dogs together  that you couldn't be lenient on any dogs, and that you didn't  know what you were doing unless you were killing most everything you have bred.      I did not also assume that just because you are lenient on  dogs,  that that translated into you not having at least some top notch dogs or meant you didn't know what a great hog dog was and we're incapable of producing very fine dogs.
   Since they are judging you and your ability to breed dogs by what you have posted on here, I would like to ask, should everyone judge them from their lack of stories and pictures of pigs on here and assume they are not nearly as good of hog doggers as you are.    I know both are as active on here as you are and both can upload pictures and tell of their hunts but ive not read of many by them in recent memory.       I can only speculate from what I've read on here but I assume neither of the 3 of you know one another personally but only from on here.   Same here, I don't know either of the 3 of you except from on here bit based off what I've seen from the 3 of you on here, if it were me, I'd be getting my dogs from Judge as his dogs seem to be the only ones that show much evidence of being able to produce pigs.        
    
    
      
    

Lol black streak.        There are plenty people around that have seen my dogs work and have dogs that I have bred. There not the best but there good solid dogs and do what they where bred to do. Just becuz I don't stand on a soap box saying this and that bout selection and genetics of breeding and how I burn up a 22 to end most things I breed doesn't mean I don't understand what a good dog is or how to breed one. A lot of guys on this site run there mouth talking this and that and hate when some one is different then what you are. No matter who you are you got your dogs from some one other then your self. And in most cases the dogs you bred weren't as good as the first ones you got.


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Pretty much the same point I was trying to make Judge     Just kinda floored me when I read what was said about you when no specific example was given to back up this claim.     It was such an arrogant thing to say without any specific example tied to it, that I kinda shocked me.   
   

well fellas...I have to apologize...mainly to Mr JP...I reckon I shouldn't of said what I said but it is an observation I have made and only an opinion...and as you all know everyone has one...

I said what I said because I have written many posts on breeding better dogs and Judge Peel tends to contradict quite a few which is fine...and some of his comments have led me to believe and develop my opinion...

I should not have said what I did say...

I should have stayed on course as I always have but so be it...

my main point is this...if one does not do the right thing and cull as necessary then we must be very attentive and learn as much as possible to breed better dogs...one cannot make excuses...must call it as it is...and retain the best possible hunting pups...

about everyone will say or agree that there are many sorry dogs out there...one might ask, why? Well it has to do with several reasons...it can be one or a combination of several...and trying to answer these reasons will take a while and actually it can become complicated...once upon a time I was in those shoes...  

the bottom line...breed the best within a family of dogs and there will not be many culls to cull...maybe variation in hunting style...and the pups should a hunting home...

I comment on stuff all the time that I agree with and don't agree on. The fact is you can try to breed with your plan that you have but it won't always work.  I have helped few guys better there dogs by helping them with connection that I have made over the yrs as have people to me. I will say this I bet the fellas that think there breeding practices are the high and mighty wouldn't want those same principles turn on them. I keep a open mind and eye and a closed ear becuz half the stuff your hear is stupid 


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Culling don't make you a good breeder


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I agree on this...there are different reasons and ways as to how to breed better dogs...and one must have an open mind and call it for what it is...

if we are breeding coursing hounds one must educate oneself to know all we can about what makes a great coursing hound and then select those pups that prove themselves to be of the same caliber...and hopefully just a little better...if the dogs are not improving then maybe the percentage of pups who make the cut will reach a higher percentage...

When breeding better cur dogs one must know what a great cur dog is of the type we hunt...and select accordingly...

and that goes for any breed/breeding program...

I will not turn a deaf ear on anyone on account there is something to be learned...

you are right about that...consistently breeding a better dog is being proactive...

I ain't mad at ya it's just people talk a lot on this site then make bold statements about people they don't know it's all fairy tail land any way. I have a very high % of hogs caught that I strike whether it's a caught on sight or a 5 hr run so I think I breed ok. You or any one else is entitled to think what you may. But it won't change what I do becuz frankly what I do works very well. And I still hold to culling is killing and I truly think some guys breed to kill to satisfying some sick demons in side themself. I can't think of any other logical reason a guy would breed five litters a yr to keep 2 dogs this is ludicrous behavior. 


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I don't breed hog dogs and don't claim too and please keep in mind this is no more than an opinion. But I have had bulldogs for a long time and have been around and learned from a few good bulldog men. Culling is necessary because as Oconee said it is absolutely vital to a breeding program to be honest and then do what needs to be done. Especially for long term success this is true.

But I remember I also had one of these dog men tell me while he was laughing after I had read an article to him about a guy saying how much and how hard he culls. He said if you are always culling, culling, culling, then just stop breeding please! Cause whatever you are doing is obviously not working lololol Cause if you cannot produce good percentages in your litters after a couple of generations or so then the same way you are honest with your dogs you should be honest with yourself. Just my two cents.

amen to that...

the cream rises to the top...knowing what to breed is 1/2...the other half is retaining the best pups for breeding...really there is more to it than that but that is the core...

one should never take lightly what and when to breed...its not about producing many and selecting a few...

purify the line...that will give you the high percentages of good to great dogs of the type of hunting dog we envision in our minds eye...

when we reach a certain point in breeding dogs...lets say 8 pups in a litter...3 can be of the quality a good breeder is trying to produce...and the other 5 are still good dogs in any pack...with someone who appreciates that same type of hunting dog...because as we all know some cull because the dog trail barks while others like trail barkers etc...etc...

Rednose the last part of your statement is what I go by out of my dogs I have bred one time in the last five yrs the other was a accident breeding and gave me one pup. She is exactly what I thought those to dogs would be. The previous litter produce some really nice dogs to me maybe not to others but any way all are in working home and doing good one is a house dog. Those pups where baying at 8 weeks old hunting hard at 8 months. Bay very tight will take a track as long as it ain't to cold range good to my standard will as long as needed will catch if teeth go on the hog. Now I spent hrs on hrs hunting with dogs I thought would match good to the gyp I have spent nights and dream about what they would be like. Planned the breeding for almost a yr then did it. And I got exactly what I wanted now I did not have to cull any all the dogs that left are hunting and where not culled. Doesn't mean that they would not be a cull for some one who wasn't looking for a dog that I like. But that is how I breed my dogs not mixing 10 breeds or culling 50 pups. Some people get things right faster then others. But you have to first take the plank out of your own I before you worrie bout the splinter in your brothers eye


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Its nothing to do with culling, its knowing the difference between a "cull" and a decent dog.    High % of litters turn out when bred tightly within a good quality family.   You see the groundwork has been layed for this generation of hunters.   No matter our breed of choice there is a family (strian) within that breed that will likely suit us and our needs.    We just have to do our research and spend time with specimens from the familys within our breed of choice and see how they suit us.    Then we can move forward with the family and expect cosistency from our crosses.   The culling part is "black and white."   Litters are not 100% so there is always some degree of culling required and its pretty obvious if we are honest with ourselves.    This topic is about "selling dogs" and IMO 70% of the grown dogs being sold are no more than others "culls" that they aren't being honest with themselved about.    Man can justify ANYTHING to himself if he wants.

Judge I'm sorry I said what I said.   I was really just jacking around with you.   It won't happen again.

I only sold one dog as a hog dog....and she is doing just fine.... All others I end ed up selling as pets that havea hog dog  parent. .lol.
Safer to sell pets that may or may not turn on...haha

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I've seen some of yall say that when faced with a choice of either breeding to a great dog that's scatter bred or breeding to a good line bred dog that's not very good, yall had rather breed to the line bred dog that's not so good.      I dont necessarily disagree with this.     My question though is if you take this stance,  why are you killing dogs now after having brought the line of dogs so far?         Figured it would be a fairly interesting question to see yalls take on it from this angle.            
    I see the necessity in it with the scatter bred dog but given that I think most of you would choose the not so great but good line bred dog, why yall take a 22 to so many pups at this point with this stance on a "cull" line bred dog.            

Good question, I personally have found it prudent to hold back one or 2 in case something happens and that dog you been counting on can't be bred and the parents are gone or can't be bred. It's easy to get into a corner that becomes hard to get out of with linebreeding.

But, if your gonna breed...you should be prepared to cull. Anyone that tells me they don't produce culls, I stay away from.

Scott...from reading your posts in the past I believe you raise and breed bull dogs...the way I see it a bull dog catches or he don't...the difference is like the night and day...of course there are other variables that I am sure you look for...

but in a hunting dog there are many shades of gray that makes a hunting dog...the worst one in a litter might be a good dog in certain packs...I am one who believes that it is very possible to have all pups turn out in a litter...I have done it more than once...but most the dogs were related and all the dogs used were good hunting dogs...there were a few that were related from one side and somewhat related from another side...

if red dogs can breed true and yellow dogs breed true then if we breed for a high standard in the hunting department then why not??? IMO the difference is that we can see the red and the yellows...but the hunt we can not readily see...and that makes it easier for those that do not set their standards higher to sometimes breed that way...

Reuben, I agree with your line of thinking. I know first hand the differences in breeding curs and bulldogs. IMO, the majority of the cur breeders don' t really inbreed, at best most are loosely linebred. I know there are exceptions...but,  those folks are exactly that...exceptions.

You have to have set standards to have a breeding program. Plain and simple. If you do not have standards then what are you breeding for? If the dog doesn't meet those set standards then by definition it is a cull.

What happens to a cull? If it can be a decent family dog or pet then by all means get the dog fixed and find it a home. If not then do what u gotta do. My 2 cents...

Joel...I have run into that same problem before as well in the past...I was already about 5 and 6 generation into my line of dogs and I was there without a female to breed...Luckily I had given a female pup away to a friend that she was awesome but a little on the small side and her color was not what I liked...so no harm I could have here replaced in a year so I thought...long story short I got her back and she produced some outstanding dogs and the female I kept out of her was the smallest in the litter but an excellent specimen in hunt size and conformation...

Black streak...I use the word cull quite a bit but cull to me is taking the pup or dog out of the breeding program or hunting program...there are other ways to cull besides putting a bullet in a dog...

I know that choosing wisely and testing pups will increase your chances of producing better dogs...shopping around for a good dog that is unrelated can lower your chances of producing a higher percentage of good dogs...you insinuate a high cull rate...if not done wisely we will wind up with a high percentage of culls...culls meaning they shouldn't be allowed to reproduce...

the first time I decided to breed a line of hunting dogs I spent a lot of time and money...I turned the females over very quickly to purify the bloodline...the males I held back more for hunting...females were proven to be of the right quality and set back for one breeding and then selected from those females pups...after a few generations I slowed the process down because I felt I had the dogs where I wanted and I had the bloodline fixed to what I wanted...so to continue breeding forward I was going to back myself into a corner where I would need outside blood...and that would produce a percentage of culls...so I wanted to stay away from that...

I gave up these dogs because I was getting out forever... ???

and 2 years later I realized my mistake...and getting back I have culled quite a bit of dogs...a total of 7 or 8 dogs in about 6 years...I now have 3 dogs I like and four 6.5 month old pups I have a good feeling about that I raised in my own back yard and six of the seven were bred and selected from my own back yard...the fifth pup I gave to a friend...the pup was super nice as well but his leg was slightly shorter than what I liked...does that make him a cull? no it doesn't...it just means he does not meet my standards...will the 7 dogs in my back yard make outstanding reproducers??? no because they are scatter bred...I call it like I see it when it comes to my dogs...no rose colored glasses here...do I like my dogs??? yes quite a bit...

That's what I think too. When you decide you want to add some more dogs in your pack and raise your own you need to know exactly what you want and what you want them to be doing by what age and not make excuses if their not making the cut. And keeping every pup and culling as needed usually works out good.

Setting standards is imo necessary from the start first in deciding what type of dog you want to hunt behind and finding a breed that suits your preference this has taken me several years. Now that I house and feed the dogs that I prefer I still only own one male who's natural ability and tight breeding makes him worthy of breeding. I have been on tireless search for a female of the same line to breed to but unfortunately so far have not found the one.I refuse to breed anything else scattered and end up having to go through another dozen to get a maybe. I have entertained the thought but haven't pulled the trigger and won't. The problem is finding two great dogs from the same line in a timely manner as the life span of a working hog dog(one that's hunted 2-3 times a week)is unknown at best.I have owned females from the same line but they weren't breeding quality in my eyes.I raised my male from a pup he's a Cambell and these are a tight breed he came from generations of best to best and strict culling from my friend his sire was eaten by a gator this year which makes it even more difficult for me to obtain the right female. I have yet to find one grown female that someone will come off of and understandably so. Raising pups has been the only option and I have yet to raise a female I thought was worthy.If I stud him out for pick I have one shot and another year gone on one pup and hoping the whole time I bring him home every hunt.I know this is has been a ramble but my point is that a breeding program is incredibly difficult to even get started and I have yet to even get to the culling process of pups bred in my yard because its proved so far impossible to get to breeding process. So how do you start?Did you breed to a cull and go against all that a strict culling process entales or did every man who breeds dogs just Somehow end up with 2 greats of the same line at the same time?

Lh...the biggest problem I see that could happen is you losing you well bred Campbell cur...so you need to protect what you have...call Mr. Campbell and see if he has an older female he will sell you...one that already is no longer needed...or maybe he will lease one to you...750 or 1000 dollars is well worth paying to get a full litter you can pick from...keep as many as yo can and give or sell a few to friends...just make it clear that you will have several b reedings if you choose to do so...

Another choice and this I would do first...if the female is not that good but has lots of good behind her I would breed to her...

If he were mine I would breed him to a Cajun plott and then breed him back to his best daughter...

I have not kept a cull and would not want to do a cross when I feel that the Cambell dogs are breed and perform exactly as I like.I wouldn't want to take Mr Cambell and my buddy who I get my dogs from years of hard work and throw it down the tubes by crossing.If I ever had the opportunity to own a Cajun plott I would show Mike the same respect.

I haven't thought of leasing a dog though and have never even heard of it until you posted about breeding to another man's dog.I believe I will try and see if anyone is interested in doing so.

You have to start some where dogs are like savings accounts the more you put in the more you get back. I am sure most fella can breed and make a dog it ain't that hard it's not nuclear physics 


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LH, I understand you what you mean...you might try contacting Campbell himself...he might have what you need...sometimes paying extra will get you way ahead of the game...having three or four young pups that will be as good as their sire would be awesome...

I agree with a lot of points talked about on here about breeding and culling.  I was kind of like Rueben except I though good dogs were easy to get till I lost the dogs I had and had to start over and tried some different dogs and realized real quick what I had. Half of my dogs now are related and are related to what I had and im trying to tighten up the line again. I don't breed a lot like Judge said but I usually have a good idea of what im getting and its worked for the most part. We need to remember that the dogs we breed started off as scattered bred and unknown dogs at one point. The line has to start somewhere.

So Reuben, let me ask, you seem to be pretty knowledgable, but you say you had your dogs where you wanted them and quit breeding because you didn't want to back yourself into s corner and didn't want to outcross because you didn't want to water anything down and produce culls. So what would you have done if you were a young man and needed to keep the line going? Breed yourself into a corner or use an outcross and add the hybrid vigor? Or sale out and start over? What I'm getting at its my belief that a line of dogs can't be maintained for many generations without any outcrosses, now to much outcrossing and all you'll have is watered down dogs. Please give me your input.

Goose87...I can't say this is the best way but it worked great for me...My goal was to produce the best dogs I possibly could...that meant dogs that started early, a good nose for trailing and not a real cold nose but a good nose...also to have an inclination to wind and have good range and hunt at a good lope...the dogs I had started with did have all of that but I felt I needed to improve on consistency meaning having a high percentage of pups of this type...I also wanted plenty of gritt and bottom...I bred about the best BMC at that time that I knew about...just one time to get a little more size and a little quieter on track...after that it was all mtn cur and no other breed...

to purify the bloodline...meaning improving the percentages of getting more of what I wanted per litter...I decided that I could only breed the best dog I have ever owned once because he was 1/2 BMC...I bred his son 5 or 6 times and the females I bred once and moved to the next generation for several times until I felt the dogs were/would producing consistently...I also selected for natural ability as much as possible...who took to water like a duck...who rolled out the first time in the woods...who consistently found the most chunks of meat as little pups...a lot of these things I looked for...it was a game I liked to play back then...

once I was where I needed to be I quit breeding regularly...so I wouldn't have to bring in new blood...you can breed the same dogs again to replenish what is needed...

another thing to do is breed a dog to someone else's dog and get a few pups...if you are lucky enough to have one that looks like yours and hunts like your dogs then breed one of those pups into your line...and then use a pup from there to breed back to another good dog in the line...this pup will carry a quarter of the new blood and it is a safe bet because the next generation will have 1/8...but, if the first outcross does not look right and you don't like it you will need to pass on those pups and look elsewhere...and don't use your outcross as the hub on account it could be carrying 50 percent unknown genes...just work it in cautiously...

the things to look for is good length of leg, good feet, straight legs as well as good conformation...use your imagination and develop tests and be observant of how the pups act...maybe you see a pup take a whipping from a hog and he gets right back up in his face...or you see a 4 or 5 month old pup work a track backward...and you get excited even though your buddy says...yea but he is taking it backwards...or your 6 month old pup has got a young coon treed and you get excited and the guy you are hunting talks noise that the pup is trashing...lol

I look for signs of what that pup might be bringing to the table...in my mind it is the greatest game to play...but I have other priorities at 60 years of age...

Reuben you seem to be a "student" of breeding bettee dog (much as I am) if you haven't already I would encourage you to read the book The Art of Breeding Better Dogs by Kyle Onstott.    It is a very good book the describes in depth how line breeding and  in some cases inbreeding stacks the genes in order to make crosses more consistent.   I bought of line for 10 $ and I would encourage anyone to check it out if they're serious about getting into breeding.

10 dollars is a bargain...I will check it out...thanks...

I got one for 10.33 but shipping put it right at 16 bucks...

Worth every penny.   I think you will like it.

Oconee  did you find it on Amazon, I ordered an old book written by Dr. Leon Whitney about breeding but it was mainly about physical characteristics and little to do with line breeding, good book none the less. Going to checkout this one now.


Reuben I completely see where your coming from.

I bought used on amazon just a little while ago...

These discussions are why I come to this board!

When line breeding and needing to outcross, you really want to outcross to another line bred dog which line is similar to your own.          Even when wanting to tweek something in your line, best to go to another line bred dog from a different line if you can't  work it out on your own inside your own line.           Outcrossing to a really good dog which is not line bred will result in a more likely hood of diversity among the pups.       
         This is my opinion and it simplified down to just a couple sentences.

I agree with that line of thinking also. It just leaves less variables. I have had a little experience with a too tight breeding many years ago and ended up with a bitch that they couldn't find titers on the first blood test. The vet college did some research with her and found they could help her titer count with an ivermectin shot on a regular basis. She was off a double brother/sister breeding off Tombstone/Red Baby and I have been careful ever since to have some uncle, aunt, half-bro/sis instead of straight brother sister. (For those who may not know, the titer count tells how good your immune system is.)

100 percent right...I totally agree...

when I used the BMC it was for a reason...less bark on track and more size...down a ways I tried a florida cur that was a very nice dog but never bred to the offspring...the problem with the mnt cur is that too many are used for squirrel and coon...so it is very hard to find a good line that has been bred for hog...

If you will take time to read the book it explains in great detail why you NEVER need to outctoss.   One outcross (whether it be to another linebred dog or not) will cut all you work in half instantly!     IMO you had better be SEVERLY deficienct before its worth outcrossing to attain some trait because you introduce so much unknown!

Oconee...I will read the book...

I know there are those that say if you breed correctly each time you will never need to outcross...

I also know there are those that say that outcrossing is a necessity due to a reduction in the gene pool/chromosome's,  so freshening the genetics is a must...they say this reduction creates a weakened immune system, low fertility and smaller sized dogs...

as a kid I had dogs and pups that most were given to me or were throw aways...also had a litter and most pups made it even though they were never wormed nor vaccinated...my parents and grandfather treated all animal ailments at home in those days...

back in 1975 I had the chance to buy a Quachita large type Airedale for 50 bucks because this ole boy had to move...these pups were 300 dollars and air freight was close to a hundred so I was getting a bargain...about 2 weeks later that pup was very sick and that was my first trip ever to a vet...the pup was diagnosed as having contracted Distemper and there is no cure but only prevention...seems to me purebreds need all the vaccines to include other preventative meds...

so after saying all that I agree with the outcrossing...

However, I also know that the first outcross brings fifty percent of another family...so as I mentioned before bring in the new blood very carefully and only keep it on the side line as one dog in a program of 7-10 dogs or more...this dog is important because he/she is there as a stepping stone for another breeding...and the next breeding will have 3/4 of the bloodline that is guarded...so this way a small percentage is needed to boost the bloodline...that dog will produce 7/8th of the favored bloodline...

I will also say that if one were to use that 50/50 dog as a major breeder then the program we worked so hard for is out the window as you mentioned...

What I have talked about was the logic I followed when I was breeding my mnt curs...back then my goal was to produce great dogs that reproduced themselves and I wanted it to happen quickly and I did that by quick turnover and selecting as best I could...

this time around I want the same thing but my priorities have changed...I want good dogs first...and dogs that reproduce themselves is a goal as well...but it is baby steps in that direction because my biggest priority is good hunting dogs and keeping my expenses to a minimum...no fast turnovers...retain a dog if it works to my expectations...

after some of the pissing matches the last couple weeks it is nice to see some real knowledge and opinions shared. Good thread here no doubt!

x2

This is why the site is here!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=9AfBsTAQ8zs Rueben this video is for you, I remember you mentioning once before about the impacts  of hunting a gyp while pregnant and how that manipulates the pups while still in the womb. Figured this would go good in this discussion. Everyone please feel free to share what you take form this video.

Rueben, if you were closer Id ask you over to take your pick of these mtn cur pups I have, theyre line bred from hog dogs, not sure how long theyve been line bred for but they sure are rangy, theyre just starting to show interest in the penned hogs at about 12 weeks, theyre real smart and a lot of leg. the parents are the best hog dogs I know of. My buddy gave me 8 out of a litter of ten because he was too busy to deal with them, I gave one away, as he was overly aggressive with the food bowl, now I just feed them on the ground.  Two have a little shorter legs than I like, but one of those is my favorite so far. They are not pure mtn cur but at least 3/4, they have a little BMC and parker in there and maybe a little cat. Ill try to post some pics.

Goose, I saw that video earlier today on Noahs fb page. Interesting take on why these young dogs do what they do.

I appreciate the thought and would love to see the pics...about what weight do you anticipate for the males and females when grown?

Reuben your are 100% wrong on the tightly linebred dogs needing vaccines because of deficient immune systems.   Since becoming interested in plotts and devoting 100% of my time learning and researching plotts and bloodlines I have noticed that there are countless strains held together by individuals, some with NO outcrosses for 40-50 years and the myth about genetic effects on the immune system simply don't hold water.   I can show you pedigrees that you would swear the offspring would have 5 legs and 3 eyes but its by no means the case.   I have not bred my dogs that tight YET but I damn sure will when the cream begins to rise to the top.    I can name four men that have and I have seen numerous plotts from each of the EXTREMELY tight breedings and was pleasantly suprised with the consistency in the dogs from each strain with ABSOLUTLY NO ill effects on tge immune systems or conformation.   Not trying to be a butt (again lol) but I could not disagree with a statement anymore than I do the statement you made.    Take care

That's where I got it from, heck he had me so ready to watch it I had to pull over and make a stop at my parents house so I could watch it, it's very eye opening and gives new outlooks on the nature vs nature philosophy.

that is an awesome video Goose87...thanks for sharing...the first time I read that mans theory on unborn pups back in the early 80's I thought he was full of poop when I first started reading...but soon after I started to believe in his thought process...it was mainly what if's and why not's...because of that I started feeding 6 week old pups a raw wild hog head and would do that two or 3 times in a 3 week period...I made sure they were hungry before I let them have it because I wanted them to really want it...I also thought it was positive mental imprinting that would work in my favor...no science just theory...

getting back to what the man was saying...he said since the unborn pups are connected to the mother what she eats can stimulate the pups because of the connection...what she hunts and barks at they can be picking up on that too especially when they are fully formed and close to delivery...he was saying when she is trailing a coon the scent goes up in the nostrils and she has different reactions taking place and adrenalin is pumping as she nears on the coon and her excitement level increases as she is about to catch the coon on the ground and the smell and the taste of blood could affect how the pups will eventually react to a coon once they are born...they could be born to be natural coon dogs...the reasoning...because they are being imprinted positively with the smells/adrenaline/environment which are creating positive chemical reactions and this process makes a difference in the pups as hunting dogs...

I will add this as well...when one smokes we inhale into our lungs...the nicotine and other components are then carried throughout our bodies and we feel the effects...sure there will be many nay sayers...but I do believe...it could be the difference between breeding natural coon dogs...or, having to work the pups so they can make coon dogs...

I initially posted on this subject here on account of something unusual I witnessed at my house...I knew it was kind of far fetched about this subject for most but with what happened I thought it would carry some weight...

We were having a birthday party for my grandson when he was about 5 or 6 years old...They invited some friends and cousins from the son-in-laws side...this little boy about 4 years old was over and it wasn't long when my grandson and friends came in and said...grandpa, Kaleb is eating the little red peppers from your pepper plant...I said no he is not and Kaleb goes yes I am...I thought...maybe he is swallowing the peppers...so I said go get some peppers and show me...well he was back in a few minutes with 7 or 8 peppers in his mouth and he was chewing them up and then he opened his mouth and I saw red pigment on his tongue and crushed pepper and seeds all up in his mouth and it appeared as if he were eating candy...I said no more peppers on account I was worried for the little boy...these were hot peppers and if one ate to many you would get a serious stomach ache...I couldn't wait for his mama to show up...when she did I inquired and she said yep...he eats peppers like candy...I asked when did you find out? and she says when he was around 2 years old...she said they had a bowl of peppers on the table and he reached from his high chair and grabbed one and started eating it...been eating peppers ever since...Then she says when she was pregnant with him she craved peppers and ate them the duration of her pregnancy...I had already developed many theories about pregnancy and environment, foods, and smells...and this was 1 data point that hit like a ton of bricks...

Oconee...I am just like anyone one else on here...I post only what I believe...

one theory I have about worming and vaccines is this...if we let every pup die od natural causes without any human intervention then the cream will rise to the top in another way...it would be survival of the fittest...the few that make it to adulthood might get to breed if they are strong enough to overcome the competition...after many generations the survival rate will go up...but we as humans will vaccinate and worm the pups for different reasons...I will do what is needed...

I did explain both sides...the one you put out there and the one I choose to follow...but that is what makes the world go round...

I vaccinate every pup I raise and run a strict worming regimen so how dogs naturally fend off parasites and disease has never really entered my mind to tell the truth.   Having said that I would not keep or breed a cronic but its not been a problem to this point.     I find it awful hard to find keepers so the last thing I'm gonna do is skip basic kennel maintenance just to see who can withstand neglect.    Good luck

I think the females will be around 50lbs and the males around 60, we'll see, the sire is 55 and the dam is closer to 60.

If epigenetics interests you, then read the biology of belief by Bruce Lipton, excellent book

I don't vaccinate my dogs, never had any major problems, they all got kennel cough one time from these stray chihuahuas that were coming around but they all got better, that was years ago, I worm twice a year unless I see a tapeworm segment and seems to work fine. My dogs have never had a flea problem, even when they get lots of fleas from hunting buddies they just die off, when I used to raise terriers I never even wormed them and they were healthy as can be. You guys probly have more pathogens down there because it's humid(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/23/348053bdda51b708f60b49d2b3238229.jpg)
Here's them pups, I'll take some pics tomorrow


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I have some questions for yall. I bred my best male to a hound gyp and kept 2 pups, a male and female that are starting to really get it, but theyre giving a little to much mouth for me right now. I am wanting to breed the same male to a different gyp, that I really like, when she comes in heat and keep as many pups as I can, and cull down from there. I also have another nice male dog that I could throw in the mix.  I guess what im asking is how do I go about getting close as I can to recreate the first male consistently, but don't really know the next step.

After watching that and seeing there is a thesis on "learned" ability can be passed on genetically, I read your post a while back about that Rueben and it got me to thinking a lot about this, chemical responses are what's responsible for our bodily actions, there's a chemical response that "drives" dogs to want to run game, whether it be a bulldog getting that eye when's something's got him excited or a coon hound treeing so hard he's slobbering at the mouth, or a walker dog going nuts in the box because it hears other dogs running, all those reactions are the responses of some chemical responses going on inside him that they have no control over, all they know is that they want what's in front of them, sort of like high their getting, so if a gyp is with pups and she's exposed to whatever makes her go nuts and get this "high"  then, theoretically these pups should be getting the same feelings being as they are still apart of the mother, no different than a crack fiend giving birth, it's not the child's fault but their born an addict of whatever chemical response their mother was, no different here In dogs, and if maintained and uninterrupted that urge to find what ever cause those good feelings will continue with the animal its entire life, this is really a complex subject that has really shaken the way I've always seen things when it came to dog breedings.

I like how you said that Goose87...it is also good for humans....probably will take us to a higher level some day...

liefalwepon...nice looking pups...they are probably going to make some awesome hog dogs...that is the size of mnt cur I like...do the parents open much?

Decker...it is hard to say what should be your next step...If I were trying to reproduce one dog the first thing I would do is examine his bloodline...does he come from a long line of good dogs or was his dam and sire excellent hog dogs, scatter bred etc...

Do you know the pedigree on the male? That's your starting point. Give me a call this weekend  to discuss.

On the subject of vac and wormer imo only a knuckle head would not use them. These are not wolves these animals have been altered from there original state. Bout 20 plus yrs ago me and my cuz had a nice set of pits real nice and we bred them the pups where doing fine kept in the house till 5 weeks or so gave them there first shots and went on. The one I had picked was solid white very nice pup and it caught parvo. So ever since I have done it right by what the vet says to do 


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Nice pups fella I like those black ones


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Totally agree Judge its not that expensive to do yourself or even go to a mobile shot clinic I take my whole pack once a year and every new dog whether the person I got it from says that they are up to date or not unless I see the paper work I take no chances.A full round of shots including rabies and distemper is $15 and a heart worm test is $20 so $35 dollars for the each dog is not that much considering that they will lay there life on the line for you.Ivermectin and safeguard monthly is not that costly either why take a chance.

Reuben I put the word out for a brood bitch to lease or buy and hopefully something comes of it.

Cracker if I was closer to ya I would hook you up with something. I know the dogs ain't from the lines you run but you never know what you got till you open the box lol


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Judge I ain't scared to think outside the box and I would be happy to take any hook up or advice you have to offer buddy.

Rueben, the sire is silent on track, hes the one that has other kinds of cur in him, the dam will make some noise occasionally on a hot track if shes real close to the hog, but its not barking and she doesnt always do it, shes usually silent

Will do, I guess you would call him scatter bred, but came from good stock. A buddy has 2 littermates to him, and I would say they're above average. The first gyp I bred him to was a little inbred, line bred, but didn't like her but hunted with her parents and grandparents, and knew what they were. This next gyp I want to breed is everything i like, and i think could really compliment him good, the pups should have a lot of motor, maybe to much but id rather have that than not enough. I'll get the man I got her from to send me a copy of her papers and I'll check them out.

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Decker I would breed as tight as I could as long as I felt good about the dogs I were using to stack the original dog in my pedigrees.      Had a breeder tell me once "never use any dog that I wouldn't feel comfortable duplicating."     It takes several crosses and offspring to find the right ones to move forward with but its worth the trouble IMO.   Just remember the more you see the dog your wanting to duplicate in your pedigrees moving forward to better chance you stand of seeing him again as long as you didn't let anything inferior slip through the cracks during your breedings.    Its actually sounds simple until you start evaluating EVERY dog you use with a microscope.    Good luck.

Well worming preventatively is fine but why give your dog wormer if they dont have worms, I know guys that worm once a week, seems excessive to me, ive had my dogs feces tested and they dont have worms if I worm twice a year. Down south you are probably more prone to worms, from standing water, flat land and different climate.

Think what you will about not vaccinating but the fact is we cant breed the dogs with the healthiest immmune systems if we dont know which dogs have them. For thousands of years dog breeders have been breeding the dogs with the most robust immune systems, why destroy all their hard work for a small percentage of dogs lives. The most common health problems in dogs are auto immune diseases and hyper immune disorders which have been linked to the over use of vaccines, if you research all the health problems vaccines can cause in your dogs and all the health benefits of vaccines and weigh out the pros and cons, you might choose to not vaccinate as well.

Distemper is a type of kennel cough that rarely causes death in a healthy dog and is very rare now days, Parvo rarely causes death in an healthy adult dog so I just dont take my pups off the property until they are ten months old, parainfluenza, another type of kennel cough has mild symptoms and is rarely fatal in dogs. Lepto is prevalent in tropical or subtropical areas, never heard of a dog getting it here, in the tropics people die of it all the time, there are also so many varieties its hard to know if the vaccine is even effective. Adenovirus can be fatal but most healthy adult dogs survive and Ive never known any dog to contract this in my area.
http://www.angryvet.com/vaccinations/
the angry vet website seems to agree that the efficacy of most vaccines is hyped. When faced with the choice to support my healthy dogs immune system that has been developed and tested by these diseases for thousands of years or use a vaccine that contains known carcinogens and compounds that damage the nervous system like mercury and formaldehyde that my drug pusher vet is trying to guilt trip me into using and has a very high likely hood of permanently damaging my healthy dogs immune system, Ill choose the former. Dont get me wrong I do think vaccines are beneficial tools, if there was an outbreak of a disease in my are I would get my dogs vaccinated with a specific vaccine if possible, or the homeopathic equivalent, but using scheduled multiway vaccines in my area would be irresponsible.

so my question is what should I vaccinate for and why? Do some research Judge and I might not be as big a knuckle head as you think. Im not saying you or anyone else on this board shouldnt vaccinate, we all live in different areas with different pathogens. we dont vaccinate our kids out here either, vaccines for humans have the same known carcinogens and more, and have been linked to cancer and the dramatic rise of autism, learning disabilities, auto immune diseases and hyper immune disorder.

Wasn't calling you a knuckle head was saying not to vac is a knuckle head move. I don't worm but once or twice a yr and imovic every other month. I have done a ton of research and I agree that meds ain't the answer but your dog can't talk and tell you he feels bad and some of these things they can catch by time you figure something is wrong it's to late. If I am looking at what your saying is kinda like the fittest dog survives and betters his immune system. I get that but in my area you try that you won't have many dogs left that you breed. Growing up my dad never gave dogs crap but rabies some died some didn't some will never get any thing but not a risk I want to take. Wasn't trying to say anything bad bout you bubba


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No offense taken. from what ive heard theres a lot more stuff a dog can catch down there. the strong survive but the healthy as well, if your dogs are healthy they can fight off a lot. if I lived in an area with a lot of parvo and the ground was flatter where it could wash in, Id use parvo vacs, it would suck to loose a litter of pups to parvo. If I loose my best dog to something one of these years I might feel the same as you. I hear about dogs dieing of heart worm here and there but Ive never had a dog have it. I dont vaccinate my chickens or goats or pigs either and never had a problem. I used to live in a spot with a lot of feral cats and I had to use the tape wormer more often because my dogs were eating cat feces all the time. I dont have problems with fleas where Im at now either, even when I get them on my dogs from hunting with friends they just seem to die off. I did use that frontline for ticks the other day, they are so bad this year that I was spending over an hour a day picking them of the pups. In general Im distrusting of vets, doctors and politicians, its worked well for me so far. lol

On the subject of vaccines and wormers, I used to be stringent about worming once a month and seems like I was always dealing with a dog with worms, I started worming and would worm again in two weeks and would wait several months, biggest thing I found to help tremendously was to keep the area around the dogs clean at all times, I keep insect granules around that I spread about once a month or so, and keeping the dogs flea and mosquito free worked wonders, I'll start giving them ivermectin injected in the hip usually once a month during the summer season when Mosquitos are rampant, as far the vaccines I used to NEVER give vaccines and never really had a problem either because I always maintained a healthy clean yard, after losing a good promising young dog and almost another because I went to somebody's baypen who allowed any Tom dick and Harry to use and wasn't but a week later i was hit for around 1200 trying to save them two dogs and lost one, I feel that a parvo specific vaccine and two broad spectrum vaccines aren't that big of an investment and that all I'll give them, yes vaccines can have ill effects as well, it's my personal opinion that there's no sense in vaccinating something past puppy hood, think about it how many of you adults go get vaccines every year for the same stuff you did as a kid, another example, an old man I used to go to church with got the flu shot every year and stayed sick all winter the past two years he didn't get it and never even as much had a sniffle, yes a vaccination program is important for young dogs but that giving a puppy 6 rounds of shots or what not is doing nothing but continually suppressing the immune system and creating more customers, it's a vet or pharmaceutical company's job to sell you all those shots, their creating more and more profit. Not saying my way is the only way but, it's what has worked for me thus far, maybe I'll encounter some ill effects on down the road but since the last 4 or 5 years I've been doing this it it has worked, another thing is watching who you allow in your yard or where you go and then come back, I just recently lost two entire litters, my bud raised one and I did, I went to his house to pick my half up, mine and the ones he kept were all dead within a week, the litter I lost never came in contact with his pups but i had the same boots on as when I went over there and him and his family came picked out some of my pups and within a week a whole other litter who physically seemed healthy as could be was lost, the only connection the two litters ever had was us walking in and around their pens, both litters of pups were fat slick and healthy as can be, but they had not had any shots yet so now im going to be getting a high titer vaccine to them at 4 weeks old while their still on the gyp. Just my ramblings and what has worked for me.

Vaccines challenge the immune system...

Personally, I'm not real concerned with adult dogs getting annual vaccinations. Their immune systems are challenged regularly and frequently. Pups on the other hand, get what they require. Parvo is endemic in the South...it's everywhere. If you have ever lost a litter or most of a litter to it...you'll vaccinate from that point on.

If you don't vaccinate and worm here your dogs have a good chance of dieing.I vaccinate grown dogs as well Rabies and distemper outbreaks are common in my area and in fact were under a Rabies alert at the moment in my county.Four years ago distemper killed off most of the coyotes in my woods.If you don't get proactive with worming,flea prevention and Ivermectin for heart worms you will have a problem.Mosquitoes are extremely thick fleas and ticks as well.There is definitely not enough benefits to even consider not treating my dogs and if you try the only the fittest survive method here you won't have much to feed.

I vaccinate my children as well I live in a cultural melting pot and the risk far outway the rewards once again but to each there own. Not saying you're wrong for doing what you feel is right Lifealweapon but it ain't for me buddy.

Since we are on the discussion of the immune system now,  i would like to ask, do yall just feed straight kibble or do any of yall feed raw?

I feed kibble, taste of the wild salmon, and add in some raw chicken or deer meat for a pregnant or nursing dam and or the pups until they're ten weeks


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Feed kibble only feed raw as a treat every now and then.don't have the time to solely feed raw meat though I would like to.Ever had any problems with brucellosis or pseudo rabies BlackStreak?

I would start a new thread for these puppy pics but I can't figure out how to do that on tapatalk(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/21d2d3c18dd53ccc5a5171d7496e4f99.jpg)female
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This threads all over the place anyway

I've been feeding about half kibble half raw deer meat. Some say not to mix kibble and raw but I haven't had a problem. I've been buying deer heart and liver by the 5 gal bucket full for $5 each. I feed heart one or two days a week and liver 2-3 days mixed with River Run Professional. Then muscle meat whenever I have some. All the dogs are looking slick and doing well.

That's some cheap venison, wish we had that out here


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lolol this thread is great! Covers selling dogs, breeding dogs, vaccinating dogs, and feeding dogs!

I have fed raw in the past, it can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. There are some definite benefits but like anything there are some cons too. Now I just feed Taste of the Wild Prairie in the yellow bag.

nice pups...I like the black male...

Don't have a problem with it hear.   Down south where most of my dogs come from it wasn't uncommon.    Dogs would get it now and then just from catching a pig that was suffering from it.     

I also like the yellow male with the pale face...

I feed my dogs raw as much as I can.   The more pigs they catch, the better they eat lol.   I really like the bennifits of feeding them the raw.    The rib cage really really helps keep their teeth clean and plaque free, thier gums healthy, their breath smelling good etc.    Bones give them lots of calcium,  they love the meat, it's something very useful I can do with some of the pigs they catch,  it offsets the expensive kibble,  wounds heal faster do to all the nutrients in their food,  they look and feel extremely well, their poop turns to white ash and fairly quickly disappears when it's good and dried out.    The oil from the fats they eat is really good for their skin and coat.    With all the good nutrition feeding carcuses, their immune system should be very well!   As said earlier the better the health of a dog, the better it's immune system.    That is effected by diet in a big way.  
    Con's to feeding raw are, you better have enough to go around lol
it takes time and effort.   It's fairly easy for me as I keep my dogs in huge pens that they can run and play in and keep multiple dogs in each pen.    So I can just throw them deer carcuses in there or entire skinned hogs and let them feed on it till its gone.    Parasite are most abundant in the guts but a lot of the good bacteria used to break down the meat and bone are in the guts too.   I'll leave guts in, in the cooler months but remove them in the hotter months.   Feeding guts, the dogs need to be on a very good worming regimen.     I skin the pigs and often lay out strips to dry for a month.    The hide sometimes contains lice and ticks so best to remove it if so.   Hide left on will not be consumed very well when it's green and will eventually start to rot, so again, I will remove it.     I'll give them the raw hide later on after its dried for about a month.   They really like it back then.   They love chewing on it.   Offsets raw hide bones from the store.      When i feed a torso with the guts left in, i will freeze the torso for at least 3 days.   This will kill many a parasite.    Afterwards i take it out and cut it up with an axe if it's a pig torso with everything attached but the hide.    I will devide such a big portion of food up and give it to all the dogs instead of just throwing it all to one set of dogs in a pen.    Just a deer torso I will give to one set of dogs because I've gotten all the meat off I can for myself.   I'll give the others the trimmings and leg bones for them to pick around on.        I'll quarter up pigs and rotate which pens get the ribs, and which get quarters.   All this is work, from taking the pigs back home, to skinning them, to freezing some of it, to cleaning big bones out of the pens later on.   Lots of work but it's only work if you don't like doing it for your dogs.
   Their are pro's and con's and if your careful and smart about things, you can circumvent most con's and reap all the rewards.    Freezing the meat helps negotiate many of the con's but again it's more work and more hassel but best to do so.     When I'm away at work my wife feeds them kibble.     Kibble and raw meat smell awful in poo but once the kibble is flushed out it doesn't smell much at all.

The one with the white sox or without?


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Black streak, if you throw a carcass in a pen with multiple dogs, don't they fight?


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Your pups sure are getting big from the last pic's I had seen of them. Do you still have that really nice little cat male?

I like that first one, the brindle with the white chest.

without...but the only thing I don't like about that pup is the chrome...he is a nice looking pup...of course all this is personal preference...lol

Grown dogs will wait their turn according to pecking order if they don't feel like sharing.        Pups well you better give them individual pieces  instead of one large piece to start with.   They will then graze on the large piece piecfully.      I have a large pen I can turn into 3 pens for single dogs if i need to seperat them for any reason.    I rotate the dogs sometimes, putting them in an individual pen for several days.    I dont like having them live together all the time.   I dont want them longing for another dog to be with them if the are seperated.    I just prefer them to be able to run and play in huge pens is the reason I keep a lot of them together in the two really big pens.

I accidentally ran that lil cat male over, that brindle female gets out there. I used to have a really good young dog from the same breeding but a different litter, the first hog I turned him in on he latched on to his face at ten months, was striking his own at a year, died from a snake bite just shy of a year and a half
 
There's going to be some winners in this litter, it's a proven cross, the pups usually range from good to great, the owner of the parents keeps saying it's the dams last litter, I really lucked out

I have four pups that are from the same dam but different sire, I took the best male out for his first couple hunts last week, we got outran the first hunt, he was right there in the action, ran out 500 where they got outran then he came back and went 300 on the backtrack, the second time I took him he was running right with my lead dog the whole time and they took a track out 900 from the truck, I hauled ass in that direction and by the time I got to where they were they were another 800 out and heading for some private land, so I gave my lead dog a light shock and they came back. From what the Garmin was saying it seemed the young dog was taking the lead on the track at times. I'm going to take his siblings out next week when I get their vests

I'm really excited for these young dogs to show me what they got and start striking so I can get rid of my lead dog, he's just not putting bacon on the plate


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Thats a shame about the little cat, I liked him. I'm glad your other young ones are starting to work for ya. I will be up by ya on friday and saturday as I am picking up a dog from up north. Good luck with your pups I bet you get some good ones from them.

What town you picking the dog up in?


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He's half stag, quarter pit and quarter dogo


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Oops wrong thread


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East of Redding

back in the 1980's it seems there was lots of articles on "Inbreeding Depression" and "Hybrid Vigor"...the old timers called inbreeding depression "Tired Blood"...so outcrossing or crossing to a different family of dogs would bring back hybrid vigor...

my theory or logical explanation as to what many old time breeders believed back then...such as making dogs crazy and dumb etc...etc...probably had a lot to do with breeding depression issues...it happened sooner in humans than with dogs...so breeding best to the best and keeping them unrelated was probably due to what had been experienced in the early times...back then there was no such thing as vaccines and the medicines were limited so in my opinion it was a good way to produce healthy animals even if there was a higher cull rate in those days because of the increased diversity...

below I copied from the net...I tried to copy and paste the definition of both inbreeding depression and hybrid vigor but I couldn't get it to copy so you will have to open the link...

http://dictionary.reference.com/slideshows/travel-words#wayfarer

ok...it worked this time...

inbreeding depression in Science Expand


inbreeding depression   
The loss of vigor and general health that sometimes characterizes organisms that are the product of inbreeding. Compare hybrid vigor.
 

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.


hybrid vigor in Science Expand


hybrid vigor   
The increased vigor or general health, resistance to disease, and other superior qualities that are often manifested in hybrid organisms, especially plants and animals. Compare inbreeding depression.
 

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
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