EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Well kinda what I thought would happen did but I was in shock on how impressive it was. That left hand was a trip hammer Ronda had no chance what so ever it was done after the second exchange wow still taking it in i member watching holy few yrs back thinking that she was bad chick then Ronda was the baddest well that changed. That truly shows the power of a strike to the face that has no answer


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I have respect for both of them but Ronda found out that you can't just do everything one way!

I watched it this morning and looked to me Ronda was trying to box at first. She in my opinion let Holly set the tone style and speed of the fight. By the end of the first round Ronda looked winded and desperate. She dropped her gaurd and began to walk into those lefts. Holly fought a good fight the way she chose to and defeated her using her strengths. Staying off the ground and at arms length. I look forward to a rematch. I do not know if the outcome will repeat but I would bet Ronda will be in better shape and the fight will be a good one. Congrats to Holly on a good fight.


Shotgun
Arkansas

Well said i had a feeling holm might get a k.o. but it was hard to say since she never fought anybody  in the top 5 but she was a chanp in boxing an i think  that helped alot with her nerves. A lot of fighters get intemadated when they face a big names.

On Friday I didn't know anyone that thought the #7 ranked fighter would beat Rhonda. But Holly came in with a great game plan, and she is really strong for that weight. See how Rhonda couldn't throw her around. Hardest things in striking to do is hitting a moving target and the footwork it takes to hit while coming in and out of movement. Holly like Connor have very good footwork and use it really well.

Yes I feel you guys are right, her striking and her striking coach got exposed. That armenian dude is okay as like a youth coach but has no business in the big leagues. Did you hear his advice in the corner between rounds? " Your doing great she is just trying to hit you with the left and the right hook over the top so just keep your hands up". LOL Yes that is exactly what she is doing but how about giving her some real coaching or strategy on what to do, like maybe tell her to stop chasing her and cut off the ring with steady pressure. Their a proper way to cut off the ring but that is kind of a lost art in itself. I can go on with more but I will stop myself as I know everybody wants to armchair QB cause I used to hear it when I was fighting professionally and it would annoy me but just thought I would throw this little bit out there.

It's like Bruce Lee says....usually the one with the best hands wins... I see it a lot in MMA.  I have a strong boxing back ground and a knowledge of judo, bjj, and wrestling. . Guys well trained in bjj have a hard time doing MMA with me because of my striking but once I'm on the ground it's like a fish out of water . lol. Holm squashed her judo with good defense and put it to her in the stand up...

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You make some good points, but I wouldn't agree with the person with the best hands win. But your point about BJJ is very true my wrestling coach and head mma coach as my background was wrestling and boxing, used to say that anyones BJJ is only as good as their wrestling meaning if they cannot take you down then they cannot apply their craft.

Wrestling gives you control of the fight usually. As it lets you dictate where the fight will be taking place. Their are obviously exceptions to this but that rule applies the majority of the time. But people are cross training so much and so many people are competing that new strategies are being created every day. The progression is crazy.

Rednose I agree for the most part. But I would say take downs and position In most cases only gets points. A knock to the face or gut will zap your spirt and strength and change your will. I told my friends if Ronda don't win the first 45 seconds be hard road and it was. But I know she will be back


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Holly molly!   I feel like  geek amongst all you ex fighters and badxxx's.     I take back everything I ever said that yall didn't agree with.      :angel:        I'm gonna go away for a while and take me some leasing so i can come back and hang out with my buddies again and not feel  so inferior.

   Just kidding, but i am pretty pissed I'm not the tuff guy on the forum.   Hmmm, think I'll just go play with my wife's cats or something.

LOL Black Streak I know what you mean. Glad I been polite! I'm too darn old to fight, I'd just have to choot em!

Proves there always some one better then u just if ur going to find them or not


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Lol yeah i was just funning and am friends with lot of those guys off line but iddidn't know they were such skilled fighters. 
     I figured they would get a chuckle from what I wrote.     Wouldn't have done it had i not have some sort of relationship with most of them.     I've always been serious on here but I'm actually a fairly fun guy.

Anybody make $$$ off Holly's victory? Wish i had put 100$ on her

You are right Judge like Tyson's says everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face lol But it can also go the other way too, when a striker cannot stay on his feet, I mean when you take them down then you let them get back up to just take them down again, it breaks their spirit as well. Plus if you have a strong ground and pound game you can do a lot of damage with elbows and good ground and pound.

But fighters like Holly and McGregor are showing really good foot work and movement can negate take downs that aren't setup well now. Good stuff!

Yes sir the art of take downs is much harder than it looks but easier defended then strikes imo. Nothing is the same as a clean pop to the face and if you look at the feet of boxer base vs wrestler base it favors the striker until in the drive and off the feet a standing clinch ain't much better for the wrestler. But if you don't have a decent guard and can't get to your feet then your in trouble. The biggest thing I saw from holm was the right kick to the left leg which was a distance gauge for the left had which was placed at will. If I was Ronda I would get rid of my trainer that fool said in between the rd that she was doing good. As I saw it she never had a chance imo


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Ronda's coach is a joke, her lack of conditioning and preparation showed. She's a talented girl, but when she couldn't implement her gameplan/judo, and then started taking solid shots. You could see the frustration in her face, the bull rushing, wild swinging punches.

Holly came in great shape, very well prepared and superior coaching with a gameplan. She took a few good shots, but she remained calm and stayed the course. In the 2nd round Ronda was already gassed and desperate, Holly kept dodging the bull rush and picking her shots, and that kick was definitely heard around the world.

I truly think she thought that she would do like she always does and didn't think past that. Imo no matter how she trains won't change much other than last longer but still lose. The smack down was ridiculous I have watched it 6 times and each time I say would you look at that. Foot work on point distance on point strikes on point. Even when she got hit her foot work negated another shot jmo


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that was a butt whoopping...

https://youtu.be/2PS-lmNw0Yk

Great fight, as was the Straw weight fight. I called Holly beating Rhonda. Rhonda is a one dimensional fighter! Plus Holly had Weinkelman in her corner who is one of the best coaches out there! Holly has been a true fighter alot longer then Rhonda, she has been conditioned and trained to take kicks and punches where Rhonda has not! The same will happen to Chris Weidman when he fights Luke Rockhold. A good striker will beat a good wrestler 9 out of 10 times.
I feel the best base to be a good fighter is having the abilities to use your hand, elbows, and your feet! You learn better foot work, and how to create range and angles! It's easier to keep a wrestler at bay if your good with your feet and hands then a wrestler keeping a striker at bay. Now do not get me wrong, you need to know how to fight on the ground as well! But a stand up base gives you alot more weapons then a wrestler! In todays times of MMA you have to have all the skills to be the best! Bruce Lee understood you had to have fighting skills to fight  close courters, mid range, as well as kicking range! But he was more interested in real combat, not sport combat, which is totally different! When someone is trying to kill you on the street is alot different then trying to get a submission or win on points! The last place you want to be in a life or death fight is on the ground! That's where speed, mobility, and movement is very important! Learning to fight with your hands, knife, stick, pistol, or long gun are what has always interested me, but I love all aspects of combat!
A rematch between the two will end the same! Now on to the next good fights!! Aldo vs McGreagor, and Chris Weidman vs Luke Rockhold! What's all your takes on these fights?

TazD I agree.     Aldo x  McGregor imo will end in by knock out late in the first rd by left hand by Connor to unify the belt. Now aldo fights in small stands and will coast of allowed. He thros punches in bunches they are deadly but I feel like Connor counters and moves good and as Mendez should us has a big chin. I look for Connor to come out with lots of movement tons on kicks and will set the pace. All of that is to set the left hand only will take one. I am watching to see if Aldo's right leg kick is effective this can be a game changer if Connor checks it look for right slap hook with straight left. If he is effective with leg kick look for a pounce by aldo this will be his best chance. If he stands in front of Connor I would look for him to take a brutal beating by Connor.  Weidman all the way think his stay in front of Luke exchange then take down. I think the exchanges and take down will just be the ending of it unless weidman just stands up   


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Judge. I feel if Aldo comes out and uses his speed, leg kicks to close up Conners stance, and finally uses his Black Belt in BJJ he will take the fight. If he comes in lazy like he has in his last few fights he will lose! McGreagor is also a one dimensional fighter, but he is good at it, is real big for the weight class, and is tough!
Now when it comes to Luke and Chris, I will take Luke! Chris caught Silva playing around in their first fight, and of course the snapped leg ended the second fight. His fight with Belfort (off the TRT) he was getting his a $$ kicked till Belfort gave up on the ground!  His fight with Machido kind of the same thing, plus he could not keep Machido on the ground well. Luke is a better kicker, puncher, athlete, faster, and as good on the ground as Chris. Chris is on tough SOB, but his skill set is shoot in and take it to the ground thats about it. He kicks like a girl, not really good with his hands,defense against a striker is not good, and is sIow! I will go with a head kick and lights out for the slooowww Chris Weidman!! Lol...

That's the best thing bout fights who knows lol we all speculate to what we think will happen but until it is done that's all it is. But I truly think weidman is one of those guy that ain't the best he is just the right guy and he is very beatable on paper but until you do well that's what it is.  New champs coming up are always thought to be lucky or this and that I think he is underrated as a survivor not very technical tho. But rocky Marciano wasn't ether just the right guy at the right time


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I hear you. Also have the Dillan haw vs Cruz fight in January.  So we have some good fights for the next couple months!

JP...I don't do the game as well as you guys...but one thing I do know and I learned it because of a punch I took to the face as a teenager...I took up boxing lessons for about 6 months just to learn how to defend/protect myself from those devastating punches to the body and mainly to the face...from what I could see Ronda couldn't protect herself from it...and that should be an automatic response without having to think about it...

and like already mentioned...she came in looking a little pudgy and Holly...well...you could see the six packs on her...she was physically and mentally prepared...

Taz my friend and I say this respectfully as I do respect you but it is actually exactly the opposite. Common misconception outside the sport though.

The only way a good striker on average is beating a good wrestler is if that striker is a good wrestler too. Just to understand better, though its been proven many many times I will shed a little light on this not with an opinion but with actual facts.

The best fighters in the world currently listed by weight class.

Heavyweight:
Fabricio Werdum (current champ) BJJ/Grappler background
Cain Velasquez (previous champ) Wrestling Background

Light Heavyweight:
Jon Jones (Previous Champ) Wrestling background
Daniel Cormier (Current Champ) Wrestling background

Middleweight:
Chris Weidman (Current Champ) Wrestling background beat one of the greatest strikers UFC has ever seen to get belt.

Welterweight:
Robbie Lawler (Current Champ) Striker but most of his losses came to wrestlers, and he was a very good high school wrestler in Iowas as well.
Johny Hendricks (Previous Champ) Wrestling background
Georges St. Pierre (Previous Champ) Started off as mainly a striker but became a wrestler as it was far more effective and IMO became the most boring UFC Champion with his take down and lay on you game. The only people he stood up with were people who were more accomplished wrestlers that he knew he could out strike. But for a long time he had the highest percentage of successful take downs in the UFC.

LightweightL
Rafael dos Anjos (Current Champ) Wrestling/BJJ background but did not become champ until he started wrestling hard with a wrestling coache at Calvary Chapel Great guy I wrestled with him as well.

Featherweight:
Connor (Interm Champ) Striker
Jose Aldo (Current Real Champ) Striker

Bantamweight:
T.J. Dillashaw (Current Champ) Wrestling background

Flyweight:
Demetrious Johnson (Current Champ) Wrestling background

So what I am basically showing you is that wrestling is by far the most dominant style and that is why the heavy majority of champions both past and present come from wrestling backgrounds even if they only used their wrestling to strike such as Jon Jones and Chuck Lidell. Fighters like these are what people wrongly but commonly point to as strikers who beat wrestlers lol their actually wrestlers that out strike other wrestlers.

Now you definitely have to be well rounded though in todays game and just being good at only one thing will not keep you on top very long. Maybe in the future pure strikers will start to win in the UFC consistently but I highly doubt it. There will always be your exceptions like Connor, Aldo, and Anderson but on average most of your top athletes will continue to come from wrestling backgrounds and then just cross trained.

Red nose  I think that most mma fighters have wrestling back grounds cuz after college there is not much left and they in most cases have spent there life training. And I agree about there wrestling being so good that it makes them stand to strike. But I will say imo a good striker will make his opponent try take downs even if he isn't as good as the other. My brother inlaw runs bjj dojo in Monroe north Carolina 15 yr ago that was the secret potion. I went and goofed off with them bjj is a joke unless you are at a high level and truly under stand the movement. Just like they use to say karate is only good in a karate fight lol. 


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Judge they have wrestling backgrounds because they are the most effective backgrounds to have. Pro football players have not fared very well, pro boxers even worse. If there was a better background to come from you would see people coming from it. But what you see are these Managers and promoters scouting the college wrestling events because they know that is where they will get their next champ from. Well at least it will give them the best odds of that anyways.

Hey Judge I don't think I understand what you are saying could you please explain when you say "But I will say imo a good striker will make his opponent try take downs even if he isn't as good as the other.".  Do you mean a good striker will make someone try a take down even if they are not good at take downs? If so I totally agree, but we were speaking a good striker vs a good wrestler I thought?

I mainly was a striker when I was still fighting, you can't win in today's game if you cannot strike period. But I was talking with all things being equal a good wrestler will beat a good striker 9 out of 10 times. I mean even with the rules emphasis changing to standing the fighters up to make fights more exciting which greatly favors striking you still see almost all of the very best guys are still wrestlers. I don't think normal people really understand how extremely easy it is for a high level wrestler to take down some one with no wrestling. I mean it is just toooo easy I cannot even over exaggerate that. Personally I have won a few bets with some of my buds who I played football with (lineman) saying I could not take them down and that it would not work on them lolol same thing with BJJ hahaha. But anyways great discussion Judge, I hope I don't come off too rude, not my intention at all. Just it was my life for about 17 years, I was there when it all started and I am just passionate about it.

Rednose if two strikers or to wrestlers are standing and one is getting the better of the other they have to change levels to stop what the other is doing not that it's always the best choice.  When I was in the army I was pretty rowdy and got into a lot of scuffles. Seems like half the guys that came from up north where wrestlers some good some not so good lol. That was not a skill where I came from but I came to respect them for the skill. Any one that was in the service knows beer guys and egos will get you in trouble lol. But any way every wrestler has to learn to strike if he wants to win just like a striker has to learn to defend the take down. Heck the worst ufc fight will mop the floor with most of us lol.


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Judge you are definitely right, the days of being one dimensional are long gone. You definitely have to be well rounded no doubt about that and its progressing at such a fast rate now as well. They are finding new strategies that work all the time and then finding ones that trump those lol.

Rednose.
I still beg to differ.  Those men  Fabricio, Cain, Jon, Johny, Rafael, Jose, TJ  win more fights with their strikes then they do submissions!  Jose is a Black Belt in BJJ, and still uses his strikes to win 90 percent of his fights! It's okay to have a opinion and have a good discussion on fighting!  Now having a understanding or a background in wrestling is very important for defense against it! Besides St. Pierre, it's hard to close the gap for a wrestler against a good striker, unless they  have good hands and feet! That's why St. Pierre uses a awesome jab. I put in over  5 hrs a week working with fighters for the last 40yrs, and a lot more when I was active fighting myself. Wrestlers were always easier to dominate in a fight then someone with good foot work and hands! Especially if it was a real street fight!
Watch TJ'S last two fights!! When did he wrestle?? Aldo?? Etc....

Not sure about any of that, and I respect your opinion Taz but the people you name are wrestlers first and foremost and yes they do win a lot of their fights with strikes but that is their decision as they control where the fight takes place, it is their wrestling that allows that. That is why wrestlers are sooooooo dominant in this sport. And its even easier in a street fight for a wrestler to dominate. I mean just look at the first 5 to 10 years or so of this sport before people were well rounded, what one style dominated? I am not saying striking is not important, it is absolutely vital but they can be strikers because their wrestling affords them that. Show me how many champs are pure strikers without a wrestling background. Their are exceptions but few and far in between, I have been in the Mecca of MMA from the start and I was boxing before I ever started wrestling and that just showed me how important it was. I won almost all of my fights by staying on my feet but it was because I was a college wrestler that allowed me to do that by not getting taken down and letting me decide where the fight was going to take place. Anyways like I said I respect your opinion Taz but I will just leave it alone now. Thank you for the discussion my friend.

Wrestlers in general have core strength= hard punches. Good base. MMA is ever changing.  And having a good wrasln background is a easier transion to MMA. ....HOWEVER.  IMO... a great stand up guy with good wrestling will Always beat a great wrestler with ok stand up. ....really their are too many variables to say what's better. Body type plays a role. Mental game is huge....

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The best fighters imo are all well rounded but chose one dominate skill. But most fights are won by strikes from standing or on the ground. If you put the best wrestlers against the best boxers in the ring it would be one sided each way. But wrestlers usely  can't box that's why guys that can box go on to box and wrestler mma imo. In boxing the better skilled guy almost always wins in MMA at the higher level all have a good chance to win even if they lack certain skills as we just watched lol. Fights always start standing then the one getting the worse of it goes for take downs lol


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Rednose. Watch TJ Dillashaws last 2 fights! You will not find a more dominate fight from someone fighting a true champion, not a Rhonda Rousey who fought girls alot smaller, weaker, and less experienced then her! She was hyped up by Dana White, and she feel for her own hype! Look what just happened to her when she met a Real fighter/striker, she got her a$$ handed to her, and all her Judo/wrestling was negated by stopping all the take downs, great foot work, heavy hands and elbows, and of course kicks!! Take away the wrestlers take down, which is not hard to do, then what did she have to fall back on, or any wrestler for that matter?? He fought a champion Renan Barao, who had 36 fights with only 3 loses, and 15 submissions! More submissions wins then most fighters have fights and made him look like amature!  He controlled the fight because Bam Bam taught him how to be a great striker, and had a excellent fight plan! That's why he left Alpha Male gym who are predominantly wrestlers and followed a striking coach. Wrestling is okay for taking someone to the ground and then controlling him, but they are not taught any finishing techniques like BJJ. Not saying you do not need to understand wrestling,  just it's not the best way to fight!
As far as a street fight or any real life combat, the last place you want to be is on the ground! Your talking from reading not experience on that one! I have been trained for over 45yrs in real combat by instructors from all branches of the military, as well as martial arts instructors, and boxing coaches from here in the US as well as other foreign countries , and the one thing they all teach is staying mobile in a street fight, knife fight, or gun battle my friend, not rolling around on the ground!
You can believe what you want, I am just telling you the facts of true combat, not WWE!! Lol...

Taz I was trying to be respectful. Those are far from facts my friend. You watching it and giving me your opinion is not going to enlighten me to all the time I have spent fighting and training with the best in the world. I'm not going to chest thump anymore than that but please understand there is nothing you need to teach me about this sport my friend. I am sorry have to say that but after your WWE remark I could not help myself. I listed facts for you, you keep giving me your opinion. But hey everybody is entitled to one. You take care.