EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

I believe we can get 100 percent hog dogs from some litters on a consistent basis...

some say you can only get as good as what are the parents...I believe that you can get only as good as what is in the parents...the more tight bred they are the less variability will be available to improve on...

the genetic make up of a dog is more diverse than most mammals...so it can be more challenging to breed better dogs...
color genes in redbones are red...however, the reds in a litter of 8 pups can be 8 different shades of red...

the cats can have very diverse patterns of merle in a litter...

my theory is that some genes can be made up of a basket of genes with different intensities...and these differences are what causes the variations whether it is different shades of coat color or whatever.

and...IMO...hunting genes are made up of those same type of gene bundles as well...it is rather challenging to breed for several reasons...these genes are not readily displayed and the variety can be great...also have to take nose, range, bottom, gritt, baying style, speed, open or silent, visual, winding, ability to find game, early or late starting...etc...etc...

no wonder there are so many culls out there...

And that doesn't even factor in the quality of the eye making the decisions on what is the best and most breedable. The guy makin the decisions is at least as important as the dogs.

The eye of the match maker trumps everything


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OK Reuben now you have a topic I can get excited about.   We have had this debate on another site I'm a member of and I can honestly say "I DO NOT believe we can produce 100% litters on a consistent basis.   Now before anyone gets mad at me I'll admit it can happen but to do it over and over again is impossible IMO.    This all goes back to a couple things IMO and first and foremost I don't think we all are looking for the same kind of dog to call a "keeper".    You might cull half my pack and vice-versa.   So given the diversity of what each person wants the odds are EXTREMELY long IMO.    Now I agree with the tightest breedings producing the most consistent litters and we could expect high % with proper line breeding but the mental toughness aspect is the biggest variable that's hard to breed for.   Example, I have a pair of pups right now that are identical in natural ability but one has the mentality that sets him well above the other.   Both pups well raised in the same atmosphere and treated the same way but one has the mentality to attack and the other has the mentality to be cautious.    That simple difference is all it takes to make my litter 50% instead of 100%.    Not to mention half the people on this site might not like either one of them.    Its just to far fetched the reasonably think we as breeders can produce 100% litters that suit most folks.   

As far as offspring out preforming the parents.   Well that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard.   I have seen countless pups out preform their sire and dam.  In face I have a 12 month old right now that is far superior to his mother and she will die on my place.   

Good topic and I look forward to everyone's opinion.

I agree...but it does not trump over the rest of what is needed to make good decisions...

Oconee...since you put it that way you are right as well...I was thinking average hog dogs...

and mental toughness is a biggy as well...a pup that takes a beating from a hog in the woods might give up hunting forever or for a long time...to me he is not worthy to be bred...and his brother can get the same whipping and get right back in the hogs face and it possibly will make him hate a hog even more...and if he is overly aggressive he will be culled by mother nature...or he will need a vest...just remember that his offspring may need the vests as well...

I would like to see some of you newer folks from this website to join in and throw ideas and theories out here and get some new discussion going... 8)

I think you are 100% right on this. But for discussion sake I think I will put some parameters on my answer on who and what is considered. I would say as far as judging the dog, lets say these are for the breeder only and whatever that said breeder considers a hog dog. Also as for what is considered making it and not making it, I would say any one that hunts at the level expected by same said breeder. So not every pup has to be a superstar to make it just good enough that the breeder would be able to use it on its own to hunt the way that breeder hunts. I think if we put those ideas in place we can have a better discussion about actual breeding and not what  a hog dog should be or what style is best.

Now with that being said I still agree with Oconee, you can definitely get some 100% litters especially if the litter is smaller but to think you can produce at a 100% is not possible in my opinion, not to say you shouldn't strive for that, but I think there will always be culls. There is no 100% line.

Now in regards to offspring out performing parents, I think that is what everybody should be striving for. Putting two dogs together to make a better dog is what it is all about. I would say look at horse racing they are consistently doing this. Your best bet to doing this obviously is finding prepotent individuals. I know with bulldogs finding a truly prepotent individual is an extremely valuable thing, and they are not always the Ace or superstar. A lot of times they are the Ace's brother or sister who is decent to good and have close to the same genes and just pass them on, on a more consistent basis. I again say go look at horse racing for this too. Horse like mr. prospector is an example of a well bred horse who was a decent race horse but not super stars and produced out of this world. I think that is where generation after generation of breeding only solid individuals within a certain family will allow this.

Rednose that's a pretty good way to look at it. All the things we look for in dogs to breed are bout the same a few push one item over another but there all in there. Some dogs just have the it factor that you can't find in ped or conformation and so on. Some dogs ain't built right but run faster then better built dogs. That don't come by looking at paper or the blood line or ten generations of breeding. You can only know these things by your eyes. 


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You are right Judge, that is why I have always believed that a line of dogs is only as good as the man that stands behind it.

In regards to the "it factor", going back to my last post in my opinion the trick is not finding a dog with the "it factor" but finding a dog that can produce dogs with the "it factor", in my personal opinion they are two different things. Not saying a dog can't be and do both, but being and reproducing are two different things.

You guys are confusing me.   I can't afford to breed every sibling of every good dog I come across.   I do understand what you saying about others from the cross being better reproducers but how do you go about finding this out?   I will ALWAYS start by breeding the best dog from a particular cross and likely won't consider a mediocre dog at all.   How do ya'll figure out which dog is the reproducer?

 

The average hog hunter will never keep enough dogs to find out. Where Rednose is coming from is the APBT guys from past. It was nothing for them to keep 60 to 80 dogs so they could keep a whole litter and try em all.  They only way you would know was to breed em and try em.

Agree about breeding the best, but what happens if that dog doesn't produce, do you try his brother or do you just keep breeding the one who doesn't produce? That is my question to you. You would always breed the best first no doubt but if he doesn't produce and he has a brother who is a good dog too, you wouldn't try him?

Its HIGHLY unlikely that his brother would be alive if he wasn't what I was looking for.   I understand and I have ran into this senerio but I know plenty of guys with plotts from the same bloodline I use so I could find a male.    And truth is, I would assume outcross than breed to something I wasn't excited about just to see what happened.    To each their own! 

Understood but who said his brother is something you wouldn't use, just said he was not the superstar of the litter. He could still be a good one couldn't he?

A cull is a cull in my opinion and by no means am I saying breed a cull no matter how good of a litter it came from, I was just saying that if the superstar doesn't produce sometimes his good brother though he may not be as good might be the producer of the bunch is all.

I agree...hover rednose does make a good point...if the line is good but the dog does not reproduce...rather than destroy what has already been gained...breed to the second best and hopefully there will be some good to great pups...I wouldn't make that dog the hub of my breeding program...

at the beginning when I was going to breed my own dogs on account that there were so many culls out there...I had culls...but I also produced a once in a lifetime dog for what I perceived to be one...well...my logic told me he would not reproduce a high percentage of great dogs because he was 1/2 mt cur and 1/2 bmc...even though I was told that BMC was a good dog I hunted with him a few years later and I would have culled him...so knowing this I only bred that once in a lifetime dog once as a step towards purifying and improving the line I was starting...even though I did produce many dogs I could take by themselves and were as good as a dog can be...none had the brain power of my dog I called yeller...but those dogs were bred to hunt and reproduce...

I will stick my neck out and say all the pups I kept made keepers...the difference between those and the ones I bred was minimal...but I bred what I thought were the very best...

for me it is breeding the very best and keeping them related...just one grand parent that is scatter bred and not related can lower the percentages of good puppies produced...

somewhere towards the end I bred a good looking florida to one of my gyps and I culled them all..If I had liked several pups I would have bred the best to another one of my dogs and then a pup from that cross would have been a player in the program...but the plan did not work out...but breeding within the family all pups I kept up with made dogs...

testing for natural ability at a young age goes a long ways...and keeping the very best is of most importance...

it is very hard and expensive for one person to breed a line of dogs not to mention all the work involved...I once talked to 2 different doggers about working together and developing a line...one started with dogs almost the same as mine and the other with a few...

went south pretty quick on account we had different ideas on which direction to go...

one breeds all mixes in his dogs...kind of like a football team...and he has lots of places to hunt and catches lots of hogs...

the other dogger started with about the same as mine...after years his dogs were smaller and longer coated...some things I do not like...his dogs were bred tight and were very good dogs and they hunted with you more than mine would...

I reckon the point I am making is that there are lots of ways to breed dogs...

and what I would hunt others would cull because they were too long range too open etc...etc...

Here is where I am going to have to disagree with you my friend. If you have a good dog from a great litter who's ancestors were all good from that family and he or she has proven to be very PREPOTENT and you don't make him the hub of your program....

But hey like I said I am a novice to the hog dog world, still trying to learn and hear all of you more experienced guys theories and ideas. I have an open mind, I like what a lot of you have to say. Thanks for sharing.

I understand what ya'll are saying and truth is, its mostly like Reuben said.   Its hard and expensive for one man to keep a solid breeding program by himself.    I can't keep and breed them all but I do see what ya'll are saying.    Take care

Great point, and at the end of the day I would always error on the side of breeding the best dog as you have stated. Thanks again Rueben for all of the info and you as well Oconee, I definitely respect your standards.

It's all a educated guess. But that's what keeps me up at night not whiskey and wild women lol


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Out of curiosity do you all put more emphasis on the gyp or male dog? I know the goal is to improve on a dog abilities but when breeding to that "superstar" most of the time pups do not truly measure up the parent. Too me superstars are freaks, and there isn't very many of them. Or would you rather breed to a very solid producing dog?

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Ok y'all talk about line breeding a family of dogs vs scatter bred. My question is how is line breeding essentially any different than getting say 6 dogs on my yard (none being related in any way and most of them being crossed up mutts) that I sure enough like and think are worthy of breeding, breed them, and start a "family" of dogs and start line breeding from there. Seems like most of you guys are dead set on pure bred dogs. But the few old timers I've had the pleasure of talking with will tell you. Way back when, you bred best to best. They didn't care if it was a black lab/ pug mix. If it hunted good it got bred. Seems to me a good dog will produce good pups. 2 good dogs should breed a higher percentage of good pups. But I'm not sure how breeding a gyp to her dads litter mate brother raises your odds. Or why people have converted to that method when scatter bred best to best dogs worked for people for a long time

Slim9797,   Google punnett square calculator.   I really think you would be best served in having a good fundamental understanding of the punnett square and how it works.

The gist is if you don't know the history of said dog/bloodline you have no idea what that dog will produce.A tight line of dogs bred best to best for Many generations is way more likely to produce themselves. Because even if there grandma or grandpa pops up they were good dogs as well not a pug or a lab.

I have a similar question to spaz's if you're trying to get more of the dominant gene of a certain dog say the sire then to start your line would you first breed him to a great bitch of his line then breed him again to best daughter?This is the approach I am going to use and was wondering if any of you started similarly.Roles can be reversed if it's the bitch you're looking to duplicate. Wouldn't this step be essential in creating said dog again?

Even if you were going to cross breed to another line of quality dogs as you did Reuben wouldn't you purify the genes of the dog you choose the same way?Back to best daughter and granddaughter so on and so forth?

I would do it just as you are saying...but I wouldn't concentrate too much on the first cross...I would hope to purify the gene pool somewhat before I chose one as the one I want to reproduce...I think there are more than a few ways to breed better dogs...

Everybody has to start somewhere with something, YOU just have to set your standard and cull from there and keep crossing the offspring of those dogs back and forth until you get what you like.

Slim...I believe quite a few of the old timers believed in what was passed down from many generations of breeding animals...and way back then they probably had families of hogs, dogs, etc...and they probably had issues with breeding depression and realized it was due to too much indiscriminate inbreeding practices that was causing the majority of their problems...especially when they outcrossed and saw the problems to go away on the first outcross...so the old wives tale began...quite a few folks still breed that way...
not saying that is what happened...but that is what makes sense to me...

Breeding for a superstar dog will drive you nuts it's like a million dollar slot machine you have to pull ten thousand times. To make solid dogs to me I use a methods we learned in Sunday school. Each should search out its own kind and be evenly yolked   I do think that the pups in a whole favor the gyp more often then male jmo. I hate to say it but some times a gut feeling is better than every thing else but most of the time it's not lol. People will always say this way that way I say do what you think is the right path heck some times you just have to try stuff 


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This is something I quite often think about, I've been blessed to be able to have several old timers I've gotten to know share their knowledge with me, I've spoken about this on numerous times and just about everyone of them all had the same responses, they've all built their breeding programs around good solid females, one man in particular who breeds English shorthair pointers that in all the years he's had dogs his entire breeding program has been based on 4 females, his theory is if a gyp has got what it takes to be a reproducer then she can be bred to any good dog (any within her line) and produce a high percentage of pups better than her and the sire. This same man has a gyp that he has won the purina high point bird dog in the country with, she was the best of her litter just excelled at everything naturally and after she won that title he bred her to a good male who was a known reproducer, the pups were sub par in his opinion and he had the gyp spayed, and only field trials and pleasure hunts her now, at first I thought he was crazy but this man has been at this for a long time and competition bird hunting is his thing and he has the accolades and accomplishments to back up such odd ways of doing things. So he must be doing something right.

Another thing hog dog or hunting dog breeders can't grasp when it comes to bulldog men and the way they bred their dogs is the numbers the bulldog men had and the ways they could've "tested" their dogs, it's a whole lot easier and less time consuming to see what a litter of year old pups got when it can be done in the backyard and at your time and choosing than it is to haul them to the woods to see if their going to have it or not on multiple occasions. In return you can cull or breed more faster and have a quicker way of knowing what your dogs have or lack in a lot less time.

Not necessarily going for superstar's just a solid foundation of hog dogs in my yard so I don't have to search for them if a superstar comes from it then great but a solid dog is fine with me.

I always kept the males for their size and power and hunting...turned over the females to improve on the line...

many breeders believe that the females are the most important even though the sire and dam contribute exactly 50 percent each...

but some say the female because she is connected to the pups and then the learned behavior before weaning...

I don't agree nor I disagree...but I do believe it is the effort that we as owners put into the pups before they are born and soon after...

Cracker that's pretty much me to that's kind of a pipe dream on them superstar dogs. If I get one great but Iam looking for things that make solid dogs in my eyes no one else's. But I don't breed much ether


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I agree with that last statement Ruben. Most of the things I do most guys will say not to do so I don't really pay much mind to what people say


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This is what everyone should say when breeding.    I think a lot of guys are missing our point of "line-breeding."    Its not about how tight you can breed its much more about staying within and family and using only the best from that family to move forward.      The goal is to someday look at a 6 gen pedigree and KNOW exactly what each dog on it could do and not be worried if any dog on the pedigree pops out of a litter. 

Since each parent contributes 50% of the genes to the offspring, equal value should be placed on both since they both contribute equal amounts.        Seems like really good males are more common than really good females though, so a harder search for a good female might take place lol.         I don't believe you necessarily need to breed to a super star to get  a really good litter.   A sister might produce better pups do to the science behind passing on hereditary traits.   One dog might posses the traits as Dominate recessive while the sister might be Dominate Dominate for example.   There is a lot more science behind it but you get the point.   The point of line breeding to me is to try to make the traits you desire in a dog either Dominate Dominate or recessive recessive.     Get two dogs of the same family that line these genes up in the same manner as the other dog and you will have a higher percentage of pups that have the traits their mother and daddy did.     How these genes are expressed and clearly read and so on and so on is where it really starts getting complicated.          I'm no geneticist nor am I a breeder, nor have I spoken to an old man.   Just how it makes sense to me and how I naturally see it.         
   I think most everyone of you have made very good points that can stand firm on their own.       Being that I'm no geneticist,  If I was a breeder, i would rely heavily on the SWAG theory for most of my breeding lol.  I think that's all most of it really is anyway unless your into cloning.     When i say using the SWAG theory I don't mean just blindly going about breeding hoping for the best but using your best judgment, knowledge,  and gut feeling all at the same time.

Its disturbing to me that so many people keep suggesting that breeding is a "crap-shoot."     I'm not denying the fact that some barn burners have been produced by accident breedings but to place our beliefs as dogmen in this ideology it sad for me to read.

Within the game dog world it has always been harder to get the great broodbitch. When you had that it was much easier to find that good male who lined up. I guess I can't speak for hogdogs on this but if you are starting out and you have a chance to get a good bitch I would take it as it gives you a chance to get a whole litter to choose from rather than one pup from a six week old litter. Also I believe that it is easier to keep consistency within one breed rather than the crosses. That doesn't mean you can't get good hogdogs from crosses, it just means you may have to take a longer view in your breeding program. The first cross may just be a bridge to get you where you eventually want to be. But the eye of the man pulling the strings is always a huge part of success. A good judge of dogs can make dogs out of anything but a poor judge of dogs will ruin the best line in a few generations. These are my opinions on this topic alone.

I understand why percentages are high in line bred dogs, for

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Lineage traits mean a lot. I had a gyp we bred for replacement dogs and had good success with her line breeding and one out cross. But what tells on a line of dogs is the produce of the outcross dogs. Her line bred off springs

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Wayoutwest that's a good view. Oconee the method is not a crap shoot it's the hope of the very best in each litter that you have. you can paper chart all you want but we are not the one spinning the DNA wheel God is. There is not a set pattern to breed that will ensure anything other than a pup the rest is between God and that individual pup and a touch of what we do imo


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I hate smart phones.  Line bred offspring are producing but the out cross pups are different. But was a necessity to keep the line going. We have kept all the pups with in four people and it is neat to watch and keep track of a line that was already started but we kept going.

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Judge just because you refuse to be discipline with your breeding program it doesn't mean we are wrong for putting out best thoughts into trying to improve our dogs.   I refuse to start anotger debate with you but YOU ARE WRONG for thinking specialized breeding programs are no more consistent than "breed n hope" programs.    If you've never had experience with a tightly well bred line of dogs then I would save your opinions for other topics.   Your thoughts undermind thousands of years of work by everyone from game chicken breeders to race horse breeders after the triple crown.    Breeding is not a joke to most people.

Bubba I ain't trying to debate with you as you once said this is a open forum and you must have thick skin. Simple making statements as you are sorry you can't handle my thoughts I guess everything I say makes your skin crawl lol. Just happy that your not calling me names


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Amen to what you said...

I am pretty excited about those 1/2 Pocohonta plott pups I have...5 pups made it...one was missing out of the brood box...but the 4 I kept I like...I know the male contributed quite a bit...but that plott gyp brought a lot to the table...I wanted to go with mt cur but too many are bred for squirrel and they have not been proved for hog and bear as they were originally bred to do...there are a few lines out there that might work...but I hit the jackpot with a well bred line of plott dogs that are known for hog and bear...

Ruben there was a fella I had talked to one time that new a guy down in temple area that was known for very well bred mnt curs that where way rough. Do you or any one that who that was. Most of the mnt curs I have seen have been good dogs


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I think oconee is right about breeding science being able to produce good dogs consistently, but historically this works best with large numbers of dogs, when the Germans refined their dog breeds they had kennels with over a thousand dogs at times, when you're breeding the best to the best out of a thousand dogs you can refine the gene pool much faster than if you are breeding best to best of 30 dogs, when its 30 dogs it's much more of a crap shoot like judge says, even if you are working with line bred dogs. A lot of our hunting breeds in the U.S. Have way more diversity in the gene pool than German bred dogs, some of the books I've seen that promote inbreeding and line breeding without outcrossing don't take into account the breeding history of the dog breed. It's a shame the American hunting dog breeders from a generation or two ago didn't write more books, im always curious about stories of dog sub breeds kept in one family for generations that have not experienced inbreeding depression. Some of the stories of Florida or cracker curs come to mind

Id like to see Cajun chime in and tell us what percentage of his litters make sure nuff hog dogs, not to put him on the spot but because he's a reputable breeder working with a consistent line of dogs with a German history, Mtn curs and cats I believe have exponentially more genetic diversity just judging by their color variations, maybe bmcs less so because they have been bred for color

Breeding a high percentage of quality dogs from a small family of dogs is probably harder than you think or more people would be doing it

Creating your own breed seems like an exhausting amount of work, I'm sure during the creation of some of the newer breeds like the Dogo they had hundreds of dogs at times or culled through hundreds in a year. Once your gene pool has been refined to produce mostly what your looking for you could reduce your numbers down to 15-30 but the less dogs you have the more likely you are to wind up in a corner and have to outcross


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IMO the kemmer mt curs are inbred and giving them a shot of some other good hunting dogs is helpful...some of the very best mt curs were rumored to have hound bred in...there was a line of busher sam dogs that had plot bred in...the Texas Smoke probably had walker bred in on account I saw a walker colored saw 2 walker colored pups...but those were some of the best mt curs I new about...

I have been to dog yards with 150 dogs and on down. I have found that a good dog man with 20 dogs has just as many good dogs as the guy with 60 or 80. That is because he had to really think thru any breeding he did. He would be keeping the majority cause he didn't believe in selling to the public. Those guys with so many dogs produced a lot of pups and many times just sold the a bunch to keep doing what they were doing. Not saying they didn't make good dogs you know some were bred because of paper. I myself have always kept a small yard, never more than a dozen and usually less and out of that only a couple of breeders. The rest were prospects so I know how hard it is to work with a small yard but thru the years I found a few good dogmen that thought like I did and I never had to pay for a pup or breeding I did. I also offered pups or breedings to these same folks in return. I was able to put out some very hi quality dogs but I definitely put a few culls and there were litters that did not work at all. On almost every breeding  they were linebred with tightening up being the motivation!

I think me and you are looking thru the same eyes.

So the guys you know that breed successfully with smaller numbers of dogs outcross? A or are they strictly line bred?


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Ruben I have liked the kemmer cur from the ones I have seen. My best dog is kemmer x Lacy. I have seen a few papered ones hunted pretty good look good to


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To answer your question a good producing dog by all means. That was the point I was trying to make earlier, if you find a producer whether he was a superstar or only just a good dog and you thought high enough of him to keep him, you go with the prepotent dog and IMO unlike what other people have said you breed everything you have to him. Those are the types of dogs you get your superstars from.

Again I am not saying breed to every littermate of every good dog you have, what I am saying is you have to understand that performance and production are two different things. You have to keep your standards but if they have met your standards you breed to the dog who produces better period.

After reading all of your posts I think you have a good understanding of this.

Liefalwepon, nearly every successful breeder I know has used linebreeding or inbreeding. The only time an outcross was used was when they felt it was necessary. I can't say how that translates to dogs that find hogs but there are issues that come up with bulldogs too tight bred.

Yup the same with the breeders that I have spoke with as well. Also Wayout have you noticed how some lines just stand up to inbreeding much better than others. I thought it was maybe because the dogs they started with were further but that is not always the case.

I breed tight two or three generation, then outcross to one of two types of dog.  Outside blood that's tight bred or an outcross dog from my line. If I like the results I breed tight again from there. A female provides only 50% of the genes but truly great females are a true treasure.   Personally I don't think line breeding is an end unto it's self but a way to produce THE outcross dog that can be bred to most any solid producer to produce high percentage, high quality litters.

Rednose, I don't know if I have the depth of knowledge to comment on that or not. I know some about a few lines but all I know is hearsay on many others. I got a wealth of information from the late J. Crenshaw and  K. Williams. I know the dogs they ran quite well and those dogs were good to me. Most of the knowledge of the rest of the lines it has just been 2nd. hand. But I do know of some issues with brittle teeth and lack of stamina.

  I have pretty much stayed out of this topic because there are so many books on breeding dogs out there that are much more qualified then I am but I will give you my opinion on this. So far just about everybody who has posted on this subject has valid points. The problem arises because everybody has a different opinion on what makes a better dog & that is one reason there is such a variation in hogdogs. I run into problems breeding for bear dogs & end up getting to much grit for hogdogs  unless I just hunt one out.
  I have seen truly great dogs in curs, hounds, & mixed dogs & this is one sport where you can get away with this. I do not know of any other game pursued by dogs where they use so many different breeds or mixed up dogs with such success.
  Like most Plott breeders, I want nose & stamina with a good open mouth. Most hog hunters do not want the open dogs. Just a matter of preference. I do believe it is a lot easier to maintain what you like by line breeding & inbreeding to maintain the traits you like until the dogs start reverting back to average. Then I want to outcross to another tight bred family with the traits that compliment my dogs or make sure they are strong in the department that my dog might be weak in. I think it was Taxas A & M that did a study on inbreeding where you could breed like father to daughter for 6 or 7 generations before they started noticing smaller litters & smaller dogs. They did not mention weaker immune systems or genetic deformities. That would come out only if the dogs had it to start with.
  Like some body said I believe in keeping top females so I can pick the male I want to breed to. It also has to be a group effort among friends to help spread the dogs out. In this day & age it is expensive to raise, train, & hunt dogs to prove them out. I have seen more prepotent females then I have males & if you get a good producing female, it just seems she throws good pups no matter what she is bred too.
  One of the worst breeding practices I have seen is kennel blindness. In other words breeding to your own dog, even tho you know there is a better dog down the road. whether it is line breeding or a outcross, always try to breed to the best dog available. Now on that subject, a truly great dog has a hard time reproducing him or her self. Most of the time the mate is not up to hunting abilities of the great dog & the pups will fall back towards the average.
  You cannot even go by proven crosses. I bred a plott coon dog to a Gr. nite ch. dog & most of the pups really made nice coon dogs. Made the same cross again & only one in the litter made it. This was a outcross. Non of this is written in stone & if there was a 100 percent way of breeding better dogs, we would all have them. Well maybe not those yeller dogs.  >:D JK. lol

I know someone in Cameron, Texas, which is not too far from Waco...but I wouldn't feed those dogs...There were 2 breeders in the San Antone area that sold a few to hog hunters including myself...

I like this style as well...but I will inbreed to the right dog...

Cajun good points


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Ruben why wouldn't feed em not worth much ?


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So you're talking about Bulldog breeders?


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the thing about line breeding is that there will be dogs that can/will be unrelated scattered throughout the pedigree...so there will be surprises in looks and hunting style or lack of...so one should inbreed once in a while to concentrate on a particular dog and dogs...

so when line breeding one  should look at all the dogs and use those that are somewhat related...when breeding kemmers they will be related somehow so it won't be too big a deal to go out and breed to another kemmer...just make sure to use a line of kemmer that has what you need...

with unrelated dogs find a line of dogs that is well bred (line bred) and is from a good line of dogs...then breed that to your dogs and only use the offspring to breed further into the line so as to freshen it up...I am talking about if you already have an established line...you want to guard and protect what has already be proven and for what you have worked so hard for...

when starting out...
when starting a new line try to get well bred dogs to build your line...what I am doing now is an example of how I am mapping it out...the dogs I have now are inbred kemmer off the gold nugget line crossed with a well bred pocohontas plott...the kemmer was bred to a redbone/pitbull so the pups are 1/2 pocohontas 1/4 gold nugget, 1/8 pit and 1/8 redbone...

I am supposed to get a 1/2 gold nugget 1/2 Texas Smoke female mt cur pup...if she turns out I will breed her to one of the pups and then I will see which direction I will take...my hope is that she will be all I want in a bitch and I will concentrate the genes from that line...like I already mentioned before...my main goal is to have good hog dogs...my secondary goal is to slowly breed towards purifying the gene pool...

this fellow has decent dogs but he breeds them small as his preference and he uses them mostly to run them out of the fields and does not care if he catches any hogs...that is what he told me...and I have seen his dogs...

some of my Ideas were influenced from some of the Germans way of breeding better dogs...just put my twist on those ideas...

in Germany, there was a warden that was in charge of a section somewhat like a county...this warden would come around and cull down to 8 new born pups within a certain breed...then he came at a later date and culled down to 6 pups because the thinking was that a female can only feed and raise 6 pups properly...so part of the explanation as to why the dogs looked so much alike from an area had a lot to do with the taste of the Warden...

The pups would be tested and graded thoughout their upbringing... and they had to qualify to receive a certain certificate that would allow them to be bred...so all the dogs were outstanding dogs that were bred back then because of the expectations...that is why they had some of the best bred dogs around...

here in the USA there have been a few registries that have followed suit but don't know how strict they are...and other dog sites reward only those that win state and world championships... 

This whole post kinda stirred my interest up.

I'm like Cajun...there are so many books and studies and articles to read on genetics and line breeding, and outcross vigor and such that it isn't worth going over.

But in this post it was brought up about German breeds and that could be replaced with any centuries old or country of origin 'breed' and then this was compared to the way american 'breeds' are, and were created. American was used in context of new breeds but could be substituted for say new world dogs from Argentina like dogos or the Australian lurcher crosses as well as some 'breeds' of the United States.

All of those purpose bred breeds of the old world started as crosses.

The German breeds like the Danes, boxers, rotts, German shepherds, dobs, etc. as well as British breeds like bulldogs, and eastern breeds be it Far East to Mid East to eastern block breeds.

These dogs may have been all bred for so long and these breeds as a whole reached a type that was created thru selection for performance and eventually a certain phenotype or even color or size that made them cookie cutters...made them distinct breeds.
All this lack of variation they were bred toward eventually caused the end of progress or depression. Let alone all the many companion breeds bred for type or conformation soley.
Sure toy can breed two pure breeds together and pretty much predict a type or temperament. Maybe even a degree if usefulness performance wise.

Maybe they did have hundreds of dogs and a group of folks breeding toward a goal be it a certain performance or type and they achieved it...wow

Many of those breeds are no longer useful or the best in the feild of their original intent...because they were originally bred from crosses which made them the best sort initially until they were actually purposefully bred for type.

Are Danes the BEST dogs bred for boar as history or the akc def claims them to be as a breed as a whole?
What about boxers?
What about bulldogs(British)
What about mastiffs?
What about German shepherds?

Etc...etc...

These breeds can all be beat by a dog that has had a cross bred in down the line then the cross bred upon at the given venue.

These breeds are all set in type and useful no doubt but at some point they tend to loose their usefulness when a certain cross is breds in and surpasses the original in working ability and changes the 'type'...albeit a little..but enough.

It's fluid.

If the dog is a true working breed...it's fluid.

This is where the best to best comes in.

Enter these 'new' breeds of tge 'new world' The dogo for instance.
Isn't there like 13 breeds in the dogo. I don't believe for a second the dogo breeders had hundreds of dogs at a time Argentina. They made a cross they liked it. Bred on it a couple gens and added another breed that brought something they thought they lacked...bred few more gens then added something else etc etc. many breeders doing this simotaneoulsy and trading dogs back n forth until the came up with a type and this is bred on and and here is where the cycle of depression starts. Same with the ab.

Curs are bit dif. They were always a hodgepodge. Over a hundred years dif folks or groups of folks added what they saw fit.
 
Be it bulldog, hound, mutt, whatever... Best to best.
 This all explains the diversity or cur types like in catahoula, or any other cur
Once folks close the books on a type, a breed is doomed to be surpassed.
That's the whole downfall with registries and pedigrees.

Same with hounds, or bulldogs, or whatever. You close the books and day this is the best the formula is set and that's the point where the depression starts and it's doomed to be beat down the road by a cross that someone try's and the cycle starts over again

Breeding dogs and dog breeds is a fluid thing.

That's just my take...



 

Cajun thanks for chiming in.

I have not been into this long enough to have any opinions set in stone, I have a few books I've read and I've read through many old posts on ethd. I think I have a good idea how to produce good dogs but only time will tell. At the moment my older dogs are poor and my younger dogs are just getting started, but I've finally got my hands on the genetics I need to breed my own down the road. I do believe the breeder is the most important part of the equation, I know guys that have been breeding lines for 30 plus years and have not taken any of the pups offered me I've also seen guys buy cats from reputable breeders and out of a dozen dogs maybe one is a decent hogdog, out of the 8 pups I've bought here and there over the years only two are keepers and one is above average, more recently I've formed some relationships with a few hobby breeders and I can say for certain the best dogs I have were free and even though they are still young I know I have some above average hog dogs in the making, I'm sure I have some culls too. I really appreciate this opportunity to learn from all of y'all on this forum, I've bred plants and fish when I was younger and hog dogs are the most complex breeding project I've ever studied


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Not sure if it's been mentioned or not, bu I also believe that there is an art to breeding that has to work with the science. No matter what breeding scheme one chooses to employ...there has to be both. What factors in to the art? IMO, the two biggest factors are objectivity and the ability to sort. If you aren't objective, everything else is a moot point. As for the sort...if you don't have the knowledge and experience to know what your looking at, you have a hard row to hoe.

I totally agree...you have to know what a hog dog is...sometimes the very best dogs are very laid back until the tail gate drops...

It might sound something from way out in left field...but because I had so much time running the plant from a control room I would read cover to cover my monthly full cry...then I would study the world champion hound/cur pictures...looking at the pictures for what appeared to be common among the greats...there is a air to most of them that is hard to described...an above it all attitude...

de·mean·or


/dəˈmēnər/


noun

noun: demeanour; plural noun: demeanours; noun: demeanor; plural noun: demeanors




outward behavior or bearing.
"a quiet, somber demeanor"


synonyms: manner, air, attitude, appearance, look; bearing, carriage; behavior, conduct; formal comportment
"his normally calm demeanor"

Semmes, I always have attributed the decline of certain German breeds to no longer being bred and used for their intended purpose, the gsp, duetch drathar and the jagd are prime examples of German bred dogs being used and bred for their intended purpose that are still high performance dog breeds even though they are bred for type, I do agree breeding for type or color can severely limit the diversity of the gene pool and is never as important as function. the Great Dane, boxer and German Shepard are no longer bred for their intended purpose, the Great Dane and Shepard became trendy and were bred for show and profit to the point today that they are prone to hip dysplasia and a host of other ailments. I don't see this as a direct result of inbreeding or line breeding or being bred for type but a direct result of not selectively breeding for hunt and health etc.

What I was saying about the Dogo was that they either had hundreds or culled hundreds, if you had 25 bitches at 8 pups a litter once or twice a year and only keeping a handful, at the beginning of a breeding project like that involving 6 different breeds it seems to me you would need those kinds of numbers to get anywhere, after a decade or so you could probably have half that many dogs

I agree with you otherwise that breeding dogs is fluid and not necessarily linear, much of the science of breeding is just theory, it fills in some of the gaps for me to read what you more experienced folk have to say, the books I've read leave you with a lot of questions and I only know two people I could call dog breeders




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Man o man that's a lot of reading.  Lol...Everybody wants to breed family's of great dog.  Heavy line breeding, line breeding, inbreeding and heavy inbreeding breeding to the best dogs I guess they have are can find.  They make a great family of dogs.  Threw the years the dogs start to decline due to all this family breeding.  They cross but only got so so dogs from the cross.  They cross again and same thing happens so so dogs. This family of dogs has been bred for 25 years without a real cross in it so it is really really condensed with the same family genes.  Well after the couple of crosses the man is left scratching his head and doubts start to creep in his head about his family of dogs.  This is where breeding experience come into play big time.  There is one of two things wrong here.  One the family of dogs he is now crossing into just does not cool with his family of dogs are his family of dogs gene pool has been bred over and over for so many years that once he does what is suppose to be a full out cross 50 x 50 on paper is not in reality when it comes to his line of dogs.  In other words he made the complete out cross and it shows on paper as a 50/50 out cross but it really is not because his family dogs have been bred so tight for so many years that when he out crosses the cross blood could not break down his gene pool in his family dogs.  So now in the real world and not on paper because of this his pups may still be 75 percent his blood and 25 percent the out cross blood because of this heavy family blood of his are they may even still be 80 percent his family blood.  They preform like inbred dogs and you cannot see a improvements because of this.  So a man may have to cross two are three times in order to really get a true 50x50 cross lol....... I did go on and on about all of this and you will not find it in any books !  Damn my fingers hurts doi,g this on a phone.

So yes family breeding is great but a whole lot of times it is taken way way way to far! I agree the man doi,g all of this is the Trump card not the dogs.  You can screw up ten hens of breeding in just a few bad breedings.

Kennel Blindness!

Another thing,  the OUTCROSS is what makes a family of dogs GREAT.  NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

Good for thought.

One word I HATE when it comes to dog breeding and that word is "PURE"!!!!!!!

I got pure this are that. I hate that!  Well a lotta things come pure and one of those things is PURE CHIT.

Pure don't know how to preform,  pure is just a word and a word that usually goes along with some body trying to make a big bunch of $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Some body says to you I got pure this are that my advise to u is to RUN LIKE HELL!

I want to say...sometimes when I post late in the evening I type out of both ends of my body.

Know what I mean...?

I talk from my head and a$$ at the same time...lol

I may not think things thru as clearly as I should

I don't dislike pure breeds or line breeding or inbreeding and these are useful tools.

I plan to employ these tools on my program.

But I think when one gets too fixated on this they run into depression eventually. If they are not open to crossing vigor back in then their tunnel visioned kennel (or even breed) blindness is nothing but a detriment to the working ability of the dogs they started with.

It may or may not even happen in their lifetime, depends on how much breeding a person does.

But it will catch up with someone down the line if they are still breeding dogs in this persons vision but solely on traits of working animals and are open minded enough to consider these things.

The problem with purity is alot of time folks consider the visual uniformity as purity in the long run and the actual performance is bit a trial or show pony quick sort of thing.

Breeds like the dogo, ab, lots of curs have huge variety pheno and geno typically. They are not refined and never reached that point. From inception...

I say this is kinda a good thing and leaves alot of avenues for a breeder to refine for their own vision from there.

Once a breed reaches cookie cutter status it is in decline as far as I'm concerned.

...some may not see it that way and that's cool.
 
The mal had a splash of pit added to the GS. And those dogs now bear the GS at everything in the work.
The greyhounds went they much the same vigor outcross and do from time to time from what I have read.
The pit had a splash of ebt added at one point that increased a bit of vigor. The bulldog had a splash of terrier added that did the same in the old days.
To me the dogo is basically the new and improved Dane which is a high component of the dogo. But had to be invigorated by extensive outs.

In that sense what texas hogdogs just posted is where I come from.

Take the patter dale. It's a bit of a composite as well... But surpasses all the previous pure bred ground dogs at this point in time. Because a type became more important in a working breed or breeds then performance

Oh...and just so you know...i may linebred down the road or may then outcross if it don't suit my vision. But in my lifetime I'll never try and refine something too dadgum much or create some sort of breed...i breed for me and not the dogs and will tweek it to suit myself so any line breeding I do will not ever be accelerated to the fact of detriment unless I happen to live alot longer than I expect lol

It really don't matter what kind of prefermace animal it is. If you go back three history and research some of the ch's , Gr. Ch. In dogs , horses , Hell I bet even in cattle.  You will find that most all have a great family in them and then a major cross in them it may be little are big but it's there.   Also I would venture to say the Majority are even some what straight crosses to even scatter bred.  Tons and tons of Vigor in them.  Best x Best breedings. Also in my times with breeding dogs I have found that a lot of these types of great performance dog Best x Best make absolute great great dogs to cross great heavy bred families with.  Because they have so much Vigor the can break down the most condensed families of dogs bringing them back from the dead to great family's again. 

Many years ago when the kemmer association (KSBA) was first started I bred a yellow pit bull to a yellow kemmer and all the pups were born yellow brindle  about 10 pups...I called Robert Kemmer and asked him what he thought about it...he said when you bred kemmer to Kemmer all pups will be yellow...if you bred kemmer to another line of mt cur or another breed and they were also yellow...that there would be plenty of brindle...

My friend bred a papered kemmer to a bridle cur x cat all the pups where spotted or black he wanted a brindle but didn't happen lol. He bred that bridle dog to his mom which is spotted and got a brindle lol. But it was the only pup


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When I first bought some mt curs out of San Antonio  areathe man also bred tthoroughbred  horses...and he said it was easy to predict the color of the fillies and goals...but not so with dogs...

I am making mention of this because different species can produce totally different from another even when following the same principles...

Or something different x an be produced inside the same species due to scatter breeding...

Great thread.
Now the question.
What are y'all's opinion on too tight? Wait until something shows up, or a specific number of generations? I read earlier that some lines handle it better than other. I am just trying to learn from you guys that have seen it and done it. Right now, I am on a 5th generation, no out cross at all.

Mother nature is judge.  Breed your dogs as tight as what they can stand.   When you start loosein things such as size speed and other bells and whistles on proven family breedings that is mother nature telling u it's time to cross.

This is true with family line and inbreeding.  This is not out crosses. Out crosses either click are you chit can them

Whole great bloodlines can be ruined by a man that keeps line and inbreeding.  Once you go so far at which is the stopping point when you go beyond that it is senseless and a waste of time at that stopping point your line of dogs can give no more no matter how much more you line are inbreed them.

At that stopping point when you go beyond it is the time At which you are hurting your line and much more the line will go dang near worthless and will take way more out crosses than should be necessary to get back to where they need to be.

Sorry for three post but this Damn phone is hard to work lol

I saw smaller testicles and smaller litters...5 or 6 pups...towards the end some of the pups hunted a little too hard...there were three that died from heat exhaustion...my belief was too much hunt and not quitting as long as there were hogs to run...or maybe it had something to do with genetics...or a combination of both...  ???

My dogs started out with plenty of hunt and seems I got a little extra grit with a few and lots more hunt with some as well...but I was selecting for that...

there was a Kemmer dog named Gold nugget Jr. He didn't look like he was a hunting dog and I would have culled him on just looks because he didn't look like an athlete to me...he was linebred and inbred Gold Nugget until he was 7/8ths Gold Nugget...When bred to the right females he produced some outstanding powerful hunting dogs that became hunting champions...Gold nugget was known as a good looking hard hunting dog with a good nose for trailing and winding...

the only second look I would make on Gold Nugget JR was cause he was homely looking to put it nicely... ;D and I saw one of his sons and he was about a 60 pound dog that was a sight for sore eyes and awesome looking...my limit I put on myself that day was 200 or maybe 300 dollars back around 25 years ago...but when I left out of there it was with JRs son for 600 dollars...I never saw the original gold nugget but that 600 dollar dog looked just like him...when comparing him to the original gold nugget pic...

Thanks TexasHD makes a lot of sense.

Ruben are those dogs still around


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Sanman

5 gens deep of nothing but family dogs bred is getting pretty deep.  I seen where you said as you have went along the hunt in those dogs got harder and harder.  That is a great sign for your line of dogs that have been bred deep and hard on nothing but family.  I was gonna say in a post up there that if a man is breeding a family of hog dogs such as yourself, myself and others.  The one and only thing when breeding like  this is they should never ever start to loose their hunt as a matter of fact of anything stay even are even better gain more and more .  When this happens in such a family of yours that tells me they are a very strong family of dogs that have been bred and culled right.  When breeding such as this it is natural to loose other things size, speed, quickness, stamina but never ever hunt! 

Hey Jimmy glad to see you on, I was hoping to see you get in on this post. Great info!

Mr. Jimmy, I can't take any credit for these, Mr. Larry had done all the real nuts and bolts of it, I am just trying to continue on and make dogs that hunt the way I want them to. So far, knock on wood, it has been working. He only started with three dogs, so there isn't much room to work with. I have been trying to go back and catch the older generation dogs, in hopes of prolonging the issues. It's just a he'd scratcher on where to go from here, lol

Hey Red nose how I doing.  Yeah had to give my two cents on this one lol.


Sanman,  that's Me Parker u talking about?  A buddy of mine had a very heavy Parker ftp he bred her to a male that came from me names Rambo "Heavy Joe/Legs dog" from what I heard those dogs where doing very very well at a real young age.  That was two heavy family's crosses mine and Mr Parkers didn't surprise me a bit how well they turned out from what I heard.  Vigor.  I wish I had one of them to take back to my family with Parker out I like the way he breeds his dogs.

Red nose  I gotta buy me a new pc this phone is killing my old butt.....When I do I will tell you the ending on some of those old bulldog stories,  lol the truth not all that BS what's on their pedigrees.  Lol

Sanman,  that's the thing about great bred family dogs bred like you say for years and years.  When bred like that and bred true without any penmanship being done in how they are bred along the way.  Those types of family dogs presents and traits  will be felt for gens and gens.  I know of bulldogs that where born back in the 60's that where bred true to form up till this day and let me tell you there is Damn near clones being born till this day of the dogs they bred back then.  Color, build, ability and everything else they ain't lost a Damn thing!  But let me tell you along the way there where SELECTED CROSSES bred only when needed and then straight back to the family they went.  Regardless what's on paper when you get faimlys that are worth their salt for 50 years and still producing like day one and all the Vigor is still there you can bet your sweet behind they didn't just get that way from never making a cross some where along the was.....Hell even a dumb Ass Scientist genealogist will  tell us this.  Lol

Im going to hold you to that my friend. Check your messages, I just shot you a pm.

Thank You for putting this the way you did, when people here the word outcross they immediately jump to the train of thought that you just watered your blood down, outcrosses are needed to maintain the longevity of the line, it can be from another tight bred family of dogs that have the same style your dogs have and your not losing nothing, if you sit in the same batch of tubwater long enough it's going to get cold, you either add more hot water or keep it cold. Not trying to sound like a smart as$ by no means, but for those of you who have never dabbled in the bulldog game have got to understand that those types of dogs have been bred for a long long time and have maintained true to form more so than just about any other type of working dog in the world, due solely to sound breeding practices, so something their doing is working, it just seems to me that some can't seem to understand a bulldog or old bulldog mans way of doing things when it comes to breeding dogs versus a man who is breeding hunting dogs.

Yes,  a  great out cross is just as important to a tight family of dogs survival as it is to keep the tight family as straight as you can.  The out cross you choose if chose right will greatly improve your family of dogs in many ways and for sure it's longevity!   Once a family is bred so tight it's great gene poolcannot breathe so to speak.  They begin to smoother themselves and if you keep pouring the purity on they will soon smother to death.  A out cross is a breath of fresh air and if chose right it will bring out the greatness of you tight family genes.  Vigor!

Yes Mr. Jimmy, it's Larry Parker's dogs I am running. I like the way they hunt for me. To get back to the beginning of this conversation Mr. Reuben started, I believe that Mr. Larry has bred and culled correctly. I think this is what contributes to his litters being about 80% hog dogs, with some being exceptional. I got high hopes for the litter I am trying to get right now. Gonna try and keep most of them.

Reuben, I googled gold nugget, mountainview, very nice lookin dog for sure...

The dogs have a really nice muscled wide stance and quite blocky front end for a cur, and the angulation in the rears are exceptional!

....tight and right looking dogs!

Did you by chance own the jack, Ty, and Bonnie dogs I can across in the pics on hogs?

From what I read....and that is only worth the angle the person that wrote it was coming from, seems mountainview's registry was a soley performance based program starting with six mountain curs culled to two then with two more blood related mountain curs added a bit later?

One of the ones added was gold nuggets brother. A pretty 'tight family' indeed like you said the dog you bought the gold nugget heavy pup off of that didn't look like much.

Was the pup that you said was a gold nugget clone still bred off mountainview's dogs or did it have another mountain cur kennel dog (or two) bred into it as well?

there are a few breeders that carried on with that blood...but...they are not the Gold Nugget breeder so no telling...there is a man in Louisiana that is supposed to have some good ones and he raises them to sell as well...

my two young dogs are 1/2 kemmer with mostly Gold nugget breeding in the back ground...one is sire to my 1/2 plott pups...I am pretty excited about those 4 pups...

I don't know if the mountainview cur is still around...they are kemmer curs that broke away and formed a new registry and they were supposed to only breed proven dogs...the best looking dog I saw that he had pictures of was a gold nugget bred dog that he named after the Famous Kemmer cur "gold nugget". Yes semmes...I believe you are talking about the mt view dog...he was a beautiful dog...and supposed to been outstanding hunting dog and producer...

That dog I bought for 600 dollars back then...it was around 1990-91 or so...he was out of Gold Nugget JR...I bought him in Call, Texas...about 25 yards from the Louisiana line...I went to buy another pup and I just wouldn't feed one like what I saw...and all other 30 dogs he had I did not like...they all were nice looking and built right for what he liked...nothing wrong with that...he is a heck of a dog man but his likes and mine are like the night and day...I saw ole Hobo and I had to have him...He was fixing to sell him after he tuned him up...he turned that dog loose and he kicked rocks in our face on his way out...he got treed pretty quick on a squirrel but was mainly a coon dog but loved hog...he was one of the best I saw in a bay pen...I was getting ready to leave and he said he might have another I might like...I said I don't need to buy another and he said no...she is fre and a heck of a squirrel dog...I was thinking she might look like his other dogs but he said she was given to him and well bred...So we walked around there and boy was she a good looking one...she was slick coated and naturally muscled and well built...and a hunting dog...my style and not his so it was a win win for the both of us...

Thanks for the info Reuben

I like hearing and reading about breeds or lines of breeds I don't have experience with.

Okay Reuben, I'll speak up. I have zero(0) experience in hog hunting, but my dog does(she came to me from a hog hunting kennel). My true passion with dogs is protection training. I want a well rounded dog,but they must have a willingess to protect without being an overly aggressive POS.  My thought is about nerves and teperament. Any dog can be taught to bite(even labs LOL), but good nerves and temperament cannot be taught.  If I can expose pups to different situations, surfaces,objects, dogs and people and do it at different times of day andunder different feeding circumstances(fullbelly,empty stomach, half feeding,lite snack)

 and still have a happy, friendly dog, that is the dog I keep. I'm not really concerned with sport, but some of the excercises are useful.I keep the pups that pass those test and get serious about training for a true protection dog. Iwould like to keep ALL the dogs that pass, but my budget will not allow it. I  do my best to get those I don't keep into the hands of either working people or those I trust.
 Other than that Ilook for a good dog with a hybrid look. I've had pitbulls for the last 12 years and I don't want to be reminded of that anymore, so no straight standard dogs. JMHO.

Hey Alpha I have a couple of questions, what breed do you breed for protection work. I like Malnois but have always really liked and been intrigued with Dutch Shepards. Also you say you had pitbulls for 12 years and don't want to be reminded of that, what is that? Did you have bad experiences with them? You don't have to elaborate just curious.

 I keep An AB right now for PP. I like dutchies also. Malis are usually to sketchy for me temperament wise. also a little too high strung.

 Actually I had a great pitbull for many years. I washed out several because the dog aggression was too much. They were also too high strung. the one I kept acted more like a white english bulldog(this is what a WEB breeder told me after I described his behavior) After he died, I just cant bring myself to own another one. Besides an old school bulldog is what I wanted all along.  The female I have now is close, but most AB breeders are either breeding for an overgrown english bulldog or a pitbull on steroids. I don't really want either. AMerican bulldogs are supposed to be something all their own, but the show world and the sport world twisted them.

 

 Also Rednose, If I could get my hands on a good Presa or Boerboel for protection, I would not say boo LOL!

Would a Dogo make a good protection dog?


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Presa's and Boerboel's are no joke! but the one I really like because of how well they move for their size and they seem to be doing pretty good in the protection world are the Cane Corso's. I really like how well they move for their size, and from what I have seen they handle the training pretty well.

Hey Liefal where did you get your dogo from, did you get him from Cali chasers?

He's only half Dogo, yes he's from cali


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 I got a friend that keeps corsos. His are out of a line that is too hot. The Main stud of that line was notorious for biting show judges.

 His dogs are not as sharp, but they have that overly dominant temperament. Have to put a foot up their backside from 6 weeks until they get with the program. That I'm not into. I love that old school mastiff temperament: laid back unless called upon or needed. They can be hardheaded as pups, but with proper handling become great dogs

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/05/61254a5c1c29bcde36e98630db8501bc.jpg) Figured this fit this topic....


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Amen to that

    X3, But you still have to know what you got. Peds don't tell you everything.

Amen to what Floyd said...same with a hunting dog...they are born...if I dont see it by six months...they will be looking for a new home...with someone who will give them a chance...