EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Ok. I'm not one to piss and moan like a bitch but I'm about too.
We have been having a hell of a time selling these pups (posted on trade). We have turned away quite a few that we just felt would not work. We now are getting two back and refunding  the money. We are not doing this for reasons of these pups being poor quality.  We are refunding the money because we feel like it the most responsible  thing to do. The problems are this. These dogs are "out for blood". Or  " runs away from me then tries to bite me". We asked all the right questions like experience and knowledge  of breed. But now that these pups are going to homes then stuck in the back yard and have no people Interaction what the hell do you expect. These are brutes. 140 lb of kick ass. We have parents on site. We have socialize  them from day one. People see how are dogs act. We put in the work. These pups need work.  Am I right by taking back pup and refunding the money. Or should I say this is your problem  not mine.. we still have two pups left. Everyone else besides these two fools love there pups. What do yall think..??

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I think you did right by both sides by taking back the pup and refunding the money.

And now at least you have a say in where those two pups of yours go to.

It's going to be 4 pups when we get these two back

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Were they aware of THEIR responsibilities to achieve THEIR desired results of what they want the pups to be and how they turn out? Did they do the research of the breed/s to find out if that breed/ are what they want? Did you convey to them the breed/s nature and what they may need to do to achieve desired result? If the answer to all ?s is yes, then i would say its on them, not you and they should lay in the bed they made, but also take into consideration of their reprisal towards the dogs and possible abuse and or neglect the dogs may go through. In the best intrest of the pups, it may be better to take the pups back and strike their names in the black book of not to sell to ever again.

Man that's a tuff deal Louie ..

I think your doing right by taken the dogs back . What if you come  up with some kind of contract for compensation .. Re-homing is time consuming and can add up in cost with multiple pups  back

If they don't like it . .. Then oh well it's your time , money and you don't know them anyhow

Judge Judy has had a bunch of bad puppy deals in her court ! Haha


Hope it works out for y'all
Take care !

Don't sell working dogs to pet homes plain and simple...

Cull thru and sort your own and place and breed only for your purpose.

By all means take em back and refund money if they act like they have been portrayed, lest dogs you bred end up on the news.

Work with the and 'place' them in real working homes or cull them. It your responsibility...

Working dogs need a job in the venue or sumthing close, they are bred for or they don't need to be......circulated

Jmo

Semmes.. these are not working dogs. However they can be. I just don't want the dog to grow up feral and kill some person..

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What breed if dog?

If you are breeding and selling dogs that are 140lbs and have the temperment and propensity to 'kill' (your words) someone, and have shown the week nerves traits your clients have expressed then you have your answer... And therein lies your responsibility to not let your breed become a headline.

Most dogs are bred for some sort of work. If not maybe folks should buy a papillon or and dog bred down for generations for pets or show off a former working bred line of working breed.

Kinda like buy a pet bred lab, because working bred lads are too much for the average pet owner sorta thing

....these are your words...are they working dogs or not is the question you have to ask yourself...

If they are cull or place pups in working homes...that sometimes means free if it furthers your 'program'. If not, and you want to sell pets then quit breeding on working traits of working dogs...

True working dog homes are few and far between esp for paying customers when they can get working dogs in a particular venue they enjoy for free or cheaply from breeders like yourself that want their stock prooven and ends with either a win for both parties or a cull of a dog

These are Presa and Corso  mix. Guard dogs. Non of the parents are working. All show dogs.. old lines like 3 generations  back were working but ours are family pets.

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Problem is that they got pup and threw it out side...might work for a lab a doodle. ..not a dominant  breed. I got the responses  I needed. Thanks fellas. .

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.....yea....I wouldn't be selling those type of 'guard dogs' to inexperienced homes....no way.

I wouldn't even breed th without true working homes lined up for the picks and eyes in culling the rest...

I still remember the lady in California killed in the hallway by her own dogs which were one of those breeds and splashed all over the news like 15-20 yrs ago...I could dig up links.

Those dogs were never bred/created to be pets and I don't see and think its an injustice to the respective breeds that they should be...
 
But hey, to each his own, and they do fetch a mighty dolla from the inexperienced but are thrown free at the professional to proove their worth

...just sayn

I just don't get it myself...

Why not breed English mastifs or Great Danes which are breeds that haven't seen work in a century but still would stop an assailant dead in their tracks and even do the work (i have witnessed this firsthand in both breeds, real life in one and training situation in the other) but are and have been bred down to an amicable pet dog as well. Instead of a breed a few gens off a dog that was bred as a composite in generally recent times (as both those breeds were) that was created to be untrustworthy and eager to bite people... On purpose. Then sell them to folks...seems like the Rottweiler or dode of the generation and look what happened to those breeds on the news and now as breeds...

My thing is...

You want to own and work these kinda dogs...cool.

I'm not one for bsl of any sort. But you better be doggone well prepared to own a high drive pitbull cross mastiff with a nasty disposition as well it should be as per the breed focus. Anything less is a watered down version and thro back dogs come along with every litter.

But to sell them to regular folks as the ultimate family guardian is irresponsible IMO. These are not now or ever were bred to be owned buy regular families in a normal household situation.

Own,work, and breed them as you like, i like em and think they sre pretty cool. But sell them in the form they were intended? Nah...
ESP not to novices or for run of the mill home protection unless you want to add fuel to the anti's  and hand PETA a present gift wrapped.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bibWfupJEog (ftp://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bibWfupJEog)

You did the right thing Louie, high octane dogs with an inexperienced dog handler is a bad recipe, and it's not really their fault, they don't know what they're getting into. I bet it's frustrating though


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I think you should tell buyers that you won't take a dog back if they have not done a training class or a series of training classes with them, if you can pay a pretty penny for a protection dog you can afford a training class, then they're invested in the dog and you know they have the basic skills, but some of your pups might be culls due to aggression issues and you don't know which ones, but mostly poor handling creates these issues


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Imo these type dogs should not be sold until the pup and or the new owner has been properly trained no if and or but. I wouldn't sale a game pit to a kid for a pet but I have a vast knowledge of handling the breed and was attacked by one when I was a kid so this is very serious to me. The one that knows better is at fault not the unaware. That size of a animal is not a companion pet period. Mild aggression with that power could be fatal even to a adult with experience much less a new comer. Sorry to sound like a but hole but this dog handling 101 


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I think you did the right thing by taking the dog back, not trying to kick a man when he's down but to curb your frustration and future headaches, don't breed them unless YOU need them, not because so and so got this for their pups or their going for this or that on Craigslist, not saying that's what you did, but in most situations like this making money was the motive not making a better dog, dogs of that background should NEVER be considered for pets even if the parents aren't "working"dogs, dogs like that have no place in a pet home, all parties involved should have proper training and background on these type of dogs, both buyers and sellers. Like I stated above, you did the right thing by taking the dogs back, but next time you feel you need to breed to time bombs together, make sure you know the background and experience your customers have with these animals. Situations like this can get western real quick like in a hurry and unintentionally you would be contributing to the breed ban laws and making it harder on everyone else on down the road who enjoys these type of dogs just as you and your family do.

And now u got screwed up 140 lb dogs that you have to try to socialize well past the time when it shoulda been done. I feel for ya, no matter how hard you screen, its tough lining up your pups with good people all the time

No the breeder wouldn't be responsible for it, but it's also a breeders moral responsibility to know what he's doing and who and where he sends dogs like that to.

^^^^ I agree....

It was always the breeders responsibility when his choice was to breed and sell these dogs just like it is the malanois breeders responsibility, or the pitbull breeders responsibility or the hog dog breeders responsibility for that matter.
If folks would look at breeding dogs and homing them like that then alot of working breeds wouldn't be ruined and there would be alot less dogs in the pound and alot less dog attacks in the news and alot healthier and better dogs, across the board, to go around from pets on down to working dogs.

As a point in reference. This is what constitutes 'work' in the presa breed.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHTRo52vFM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHTRo52vFM)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q-D19qdvGk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q-D19qdvGk)
...so the dogs in question are a couple untested generations off of dogs like this that do work?

This is the temperment the dogs are supposed to have.
That is just one aspect of work. To go along with it they should have and be tested to have good nerves under stress and good obedience as well under stress which is probably the most important factor.

All these things together make up BST (breed suitablity tests) for protection breeds.

Most working registries and working guardian breed specific registries hold these sort of trials which in the long run are supposed to deam a dog even worthy of being bred in the first place. Most also put some criteria for health testing into that as well such as hip dysplasia free certs among others specific to breeds.

These dogs usually in a good working title have to first pass the obedience portion to even compete at the bite work.

Conformation shows don't even count in this circle of folks...

Most serious breeders of these type dogs attend trials to proove their stock amongst their peers, do the health tests at age appropriate times. Put in the training, travel and campaign dog around the country in public breed with appropriate buyers or home placements in mind and usually breed to further their own program as well when the breeding does take place. All that don't make the cut are culled.
There is rarely ever money to be made and one never breaks even...not even close to even really. Most these folks spend multiple thousands of dollars above the initial investment of buying the dogs with travel training weekly usually at a club where dues are paid, training daily at home. Prelim health certs when young before ones time is wasted and again at maturity. Alot these dogs aren't even thought bout being bred til 4 or so years old.
It's a labor of love just as folks that hunt dogs like us. But, much more expensive to the folks with the passion to do these things. And just as fun for them as us catching a few hogs or a good trophy one.

You think me and couple other folks are guving you a hard time....

Just think what folks that put in all that kinda work, labor, love and money into the breed would say to a person that bought a couple of pets and just threw em together and sold em for 2-3grand a pc and made his money back on first liter and will stand to make 10-20k profit untaxed on his next litter. All the while ruining the work standard of the breed, lower demand and prices and putting their right to own and work their own dogs in jeopardy but selling then as 'home guardians' on the trade, whatever that is...
They would eat you a new a$$hole if you were talking to them...

That was not directed at you specifically just a generalization.

Just look at all the crap bred pitbulls eating folks left and right with old ladies and families with young kids buying them left and right as home guardians and ask some these older cats what they think about that and how their beloved breed is in the news all the time and while counties have outlawed their ownership and you'll pribably get a less than gentlemanly reply from folks of the gentlemen's sport

When I sold pups it was a verbal agreement.  That these pups will be properly cared for. The buyers understood that and assured me the pups were going to receive what's needed. . But thay failed. So now it's back on me.. I get that some people might profit from pups. Not me. I make money working  not breeding. This is a one time breeding.  I'm not upset if some look upon me a non responsible breeder. Fact is I'm not a breeder at all. Just a guy trying to sell pups that will make great dogs to good homes....again one time deal.

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That right there tells the tale blastin...some are per quality and can be homed as such. Some are working quality and make the grade to be bred and some are just nerve bag culls....

That's exactly what I said when I said better and healthier dogs for pet owners and working homes. But less crap being breed and bad traits being passed along to novice owners.

These dogs must be kept or placed in experienced homes for evaluation by experienced folks not sold as 8 wk old pups to pet 'guard dog' homes...

That's exactly why Louie has this problem...

I say he ougt be glad he didn't read the paper and find out  dog he bred mauled someone.

Now he has the opportunity to make it right and raise the pups he bred and evaluate and socialize/train the or cull them accordingly..,

13 weeks old

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Females.  I'll have 4 buy the weekend

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I'm not tryn to trounce ya Louie. I wish you luck...

Some things just get my goat.

I know you only asked 500$ a pup for em.

I went back and looked thru your posts and found the breeding.

But you now know it's hard to 'make great dogs, for good homes' when speaking on guardian/protection dogs.
It's a serious thing. The hood is full of great guard dogs right rolleyes

I know also on a previous post of yours that I responded too about you juvenile presa(I'm figuring the fire to this litter) and your dogo tying up and you talking bout expressing your alpha-ness with a cattle prob to the nut sack to demand your asumption of pack placement and you want two dominant intact male dogs to be able to eat together reliably and coexist much less with a bitch in heat around, that is a pipe dream brother.

As I said earlier it a trainwreck.

I think if you are gonna keep these type dogs around, much less breed them you need to attend some training and handling sessions with a club yourself and I can guarantee they ain't gonna teach you that you can make these two males coexist by shocking em into it and exclaiming to them you are alpha so it must be so...

 

Oh btw...just for the record...

I'm with Charles' call on you blastin...

Louie...blastin has come off like a fuzzy nut d!ck weed since his first appearance on here...

Word to the wise...this is a guy who from his first posts said breeding dont mean nuthin and he could get the best dogs at the pound and that he liked to wait til the price was reduced and the seller was highly motivated so he could get good deals...

I'd cull the dog first myself before letn ol blabbin get one...

I have only ever sold dogs once (two pups in a litter of nine)dumba$$ and that was over 20 years ago...go back and charck the record there swifty...

I have bred since then and haven't sold a one ever

Sure didn't because the dogs mean more to me than money and I pay my bills fine working...

But the two that bought those Great Danes had no complaints.

But I guess I'm the dumba$$ cause I did spend close to prob 30 k in a five year span on dogs buying importing campaigning and few breedings and didn't make a cent...just bunch ribbons cnd trophys and a few titles. I don't have any regrets...loved every minute of it. Now I breed just for me ...

Being something besides what they are aint all folks dreams..

Dream on big timer...

Maybe folks will remember your name when your gone with your pound and flea market breeding scheme...

Stranger things have happened

Any time dealing with the public it's asking for aggravation. People are gung ho on getting a new dog then throw it in the pen only for it to become a number 2eater that they usually blame the breeder for.
People see a pic of a dog and that's what they want. I got a guy I work with told me today he wanted a boxer I asked him why and he said he likes the way they looked that's not a real good reason to get a dog but that's how most people are. I'll give away a dog from time to time but most pups out of the last few litters I raised I kept what i wanted and culled the rest it's way easier that way

I'm done with you blabbin...you wouldn't know a fact if it was explained to you by a professor.

That's what I referenced that you said about your dogs blabbin...

But if you want facts...http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1581908-semmes--grits-of-basins (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1581908-semmes--grits-of-basins)

The red letters under dogs name are titles...not that they are great titles
Notice the health certs. Notice the s gr ch as a prefix...this took time, labor and more money than all your dogs combined I assure you...in the end the dog was a cull for hunting and breeding on.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=866557-manors-preachin-to-the-choir-of-nk-cajun (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=866557-manors-preachin-to-the-choir-of-nk-cajun) the only full ab I got. Notice wp3 and temperment test as well as health certs and she did finally make ch which I never updated online.
Made a damn fine dog and hogdog. She sits in my yard now...

Plus many others...many...imports from Germany and Sweden included....and culled costing thousands.

I don't have to prove any thing to you but its fun makin you look like a fool...

I should say I currently got...had a dozen others over the years

And that sup gr ch hit hogs like a time of bricks...only thing made him a cull is he didn't breath great, good lead in but not Grady for 200 yd send in summer or he'd been one and done, and pretty picky, nor was he super trustworthy around strangers sometimes, something I really didn't want to risk hunting with dif folks all the time. That's the only thing that made him a cull,

I know Alan personally and he is a friend. Got his number on my phone and he signed my breed inspector card and I apprenticed under him as senior judge...
He put my dig up as best in breed over dogs he bred himself no less than half a dozen times moron...

No I'm saying you said you do..

Yeah u keep on sayn it to yourself and maybe you'll believe it...

Lots of dogs came of Alan's yard....thousands ...

Semmes that preaching to the choir dog looks darn good is she still alive


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Yes sir, she is still kickin

Hey lou, those pups are presa/dogo cross right? Can you txt me some pics? A guy i work with from washington said he and a friend wanted a dogo or dogo cross. Send me the pics and ill see if he or the other guy wants 1.

x2 on that.  That joker looks real good

This is the daughter of the "preaching to the choir" dog Cajun... Her name is Roux-ga-roux (Roux) and hell on a hog. One pup off of a few successful Semmes breedings I've seen.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160114/c549ccc227d586e265b309a07f425e00.jpg)


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That's a good looking dog!

That is a good looking dog


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Similar in appearance to a pup I sold to a kid. I like her!

Yep. She's nice for sure

Update.  My wife declined both parties  in switching out pups. One guy was supposed  to send his wife to return the pup. No show.  Another not respond  from text....we are in a holding pattern. .I will probably  hear from the guys when they have another situation.  For the record I got my first dog as a pet.  At 8 months or so I sent him to mr. Mason for a week or so. Mr. Mason called and said he is doing good and for me to get him. That was 4 years ago. Because of my pet i have met great people that otherwise  I would not have had a chance to. I've got thousands  of acres to hunt. A free alpha, leads custom made, a collar, a gopro....all from me having a pet...I keep my pets and still hunt..all of yall make great post and I'll take yalls experience  and heed to it. So I have two still. I'll send a pic or two to ya Charles.  Thanks guys

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Thanks... If y'all were commenting about the pup lol. I think she is about 18mo now. This is my favorite pic of the dog preaching to the choir "Cajun" in the ped link. I have posted it before but some may have missed it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160115/6dc0517578b7172c90fffde5befc6f30.jpg)


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That is one heck of a animal


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That's Semmes catch dog. She doesn't get used unless of emergency because we are focusing on her offspring. One of which (Roux pictured in my previous comment) is threatening to send my 5yr old pit into early "retirement until needed" because she is doing phenomenal.


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I wish you luck with the situations Louie and my be regards and had only good intentions...(might not have turned out like originally planned lol)

Hope all turns out great for the litter, and the homes and dogs right themselves.

It's tough breeding dog for yourself, much less for others...

We will always be, and should, harder on the dogs of our production.

Good luck brother and I hope you one or a few real winners out of it and continue on in an ever stronger frame.

Thay are Presa Corso  cross.. ironically  I still have what I consider  the pick of the litter. Everyone  wanted the biggest  male or the brindle color ones...

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fixitlouie, I sure wish that I was in a better situation land/house wise than I am now. I would happily get one from you if I had different arrangements. Once we get moved onto a bigger piece of property I fully intend on picking up a presa s homeland security  :D. Good luck with the rest of your pups!

Got one left... up for free to good home..

galaxy phone is better than your fruit

I appreciate the offer but i could not do a dog like that justice right now, too many other irons in the fire.