EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

lets hear some ideas and experiences/know how...

we sure have a lot of culls out there...hopefully we can all learn by sharing our knowledge so we can up the game...EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS HAS BEEN AN AWESOME SITE FOR ME...

What took me yours to learn can be learned rather quickly right here...and the best part it is free...  8)

Reubens I'll stay out of this one because I have trouble communicating my message without stepping on toes but after reading countless posts you have made it do believe you and I agree on most everything and would enjoy talking to you sometime.  (580) 258-0206.     Call anytime, I look forward to talking.

I found a list of questions in the internet that I found interesting. If you are thinking about a long term breeding program you might want to ask yourself some of these questions. Let me say now I am not saying you have to follow this or anything else, I am going to stay out of that part of this discussion. I just wanted to add a little food for thought on the subject.

1.   Not everyone should breed dogs, be honest with yourself.
2.   What are your reasons for breeding?
3.   What are you breeding for? What is your end goal?
      a.   What are the characteristics that it will take to accomplish this?
               i.   Prioritize them from most important to least important.
4.   Do you have the resources you will need to accomplish your goal; if not do you have the means to get them?
5.   Do you understand basic genetics? If not are you willing to learn?
6.   Do you have the resources and means to test your product?
7.   Do you have the ability to cull what doesn’t work or is undesirable?
8.   Sometimes what you want is already out there and you can just tweak it, you don’t always have to re-create the wheel. Some people get visions of grandeur and cannot help themselves.

Just thought this might spice up the convo.

Adding to the Rednose points of consideration...1) if you can't be honest about dogs (your dogs, others dogs, any dogs), you shouldn't be breeding. 2) Knowledge and experience are helpful. 7) if you can't or won't cull...you shouldn't be breed.

I'm sure there are more pearls out there...

I think it's helpful to have what you consider excellent already in a dog, then breed up from there.
If you're breeding to achieve some overly lofty goal, you'd be better off acquiring and culling thru dogs till you get closer first.

It has worked that way for me anyhow

All I mean by that is dont breed two labs hoping to have a litter of golden retrievers

The problem is $$$ plane and simple. There are good dogs every where and bad ones every where it's all to the eye of the beholder. Pride breeds a lot of dogs so does ignorance. We can't all be top breeders nor should we. It's kinda easy to me to see who does what they do right and who don't. We should all want to be better then the next guy if not I don't see the point lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't been runnin dogs long. I sure don't know everything. But I was lucky. We have great friends that have been doin it for years and years. An I have a fella I meet by chance who lives down in flordia.( I know that has nothing to do but he has some kick ass cow dogs an he GAVE me a puppy that is gonna make a good one)  My brother got a dog he wants to breed. She's a dang good one to. She's fast, smart, gritty, an will flat out take a track an beat the bushes. She's 6 or 7 this year. Maybe 8 to be honest we don't know how old she us. When he breeds her me him an a buddy are gonna split the pups. Raise them. An cull what doesn't work. I talked to ruben about her one time. And he gave me alot of really good advice an my cowboy buddy said alot of the same stuff ruben did. Iv been reading this forum for like 2 years.

In other words I got lucky. Got dogs that suited me an that I like an that's why I feed em. We are gonna mix it up a little bit an tweck it a little by breeding the old school cow dog to a English pointer. I think the bird dog will give done extra endurance, heat tolerence, an maybe some more nose an gameness. We are going to do this once an see the results. If it don't workout it won't stay.

I love this topic, but I'm like oconee im just going to spectate because there's  to many that only see things their way and are convinced that there's is the only way, every man is going to have something he likes in a dog that's different from the next, they maybe little differences but no two to the bone dog men are going to agree on 100% of things 100% of the time...

I think to many people make to many excuses, and get to attached to their dogs, don't get me wrong I love each and everyone of my dogs, but if they can't get the job done they just can't get it done, that's when you have to be honest with your self, you won't ever get a silver purse out of a sows ear....

You can't breed to outstanding dogs together and expect super stars every time. Some of the best dogs are the sorriest producers and some of the sorriest dogs are the best producers. The only way I see fit for a "cull" in my eyes to change hands if it will fit someone else's needs. Cows, walk hunters, exc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

are you saying walk hunters use culls? lol

No I'm saying the way I hunt a dog that needs to be walked is a cull in my eyes but may be a gold mine in someone else's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've culled quite a few dogs that would consistently find and bay hogs if you put them in fresh sign, but I'm not walk hunting a dog anymore nor do I sell hog dogs...different strokes for different folks.

The consistency  lies within the family.  Families or strains of dogs will always produce more consistently than dogs thrown together from other families and strains.   One dog from a particular line may show characteristics unconcistent but will "breed" more along the lines of the families characteristics.    This is why I feel it's very important to research the strain of dog you dealing with and find what suits your style of hunting then stay within that family if it suits your needs.   It's not "fool proof" buy it personally  feel it's the best way to keep what traits you needo for your style.   Have you ever noticed the good athletes  you knew growing up in school had athletic families and the fat kids entire family was fat.  (I know because I was the fat kid.  Lol)   

Agreed I am not going to own a dog I have to walk for it to hunt or to walk up on hogs for it to bay or find one.

my 2 cents.... first what exactly do you want to produce from any breeding?  to select 2 individuals for a breeding it sure helps to know about the dogs behind the dogs you plan to breed. and are you trying to use and keep a set line and if so why is this line so good?  if you pick 2 individuals to breed because they are great at something , you might check to see if they were the only great or even good dogs in their litters or were their siblings equally talented. good chance if they were the only good dogs in their litters that they might not throw themselves at all. and an idea ive had for many years  is typically dont breed to the superstar, breed to what produced the superstar. then as was stated by others here... ya can breed great to great and get doodoo and breed doodoo to doodoo and get great. not the way to breed but it does happen. in the end breeding can leave you scratchin your head. sadly most in any animal use arent able to keep many individuals and do many breedings to find out whats best. and if you get lucky and find a prepotent individual.. breed on it and keep finding and using the prepotent individuals from each breeding if you can. guess it was a quarter instead of 2 cents,lol.

I agree with this, but there are some real important factors to this in my opinion. First you need to know how to line breed to preserve the family over time. Some people get told stay within a family and then breed way too tight and lose a lot of what made that family good after 4+ generations. Then they have to outcross to add back vigor and anytime you outcross its always a gamble. It may click, it may not. Regardless, knowing outcrosses that work is worth its weight in gold. So knowing how to linebreed is critical, and finding outcrosses that produce high percentages is also super valuable. Those two things can keep a family alive and producing for a long long time.

Some people start their own family based on 1-4 dogs and they breed looking for certain characteristic's and culling real hard. Called selective breeding. After 4+ generations of line breeding on those dogs you have your own family. The key to that is starting with a prepotent dog or dogs. So many people do not understand what a prepotent dog is or what prepotency is. A good example of that is thorough bred race horses. Some of the greatest sires in history had great mile type speed but were never great racehorses. But they could reproduce that speed in their offspring at high percentages and that's what made them great. Just some thoughts taught to me by old time bulldogs guys I have had the honor of speaking with over the years. Take it for what it is worth.

Just one comment and it's on the walk hunting remark. I can rig, walk, road, and cast my dogs. I walk hunt mostly due to necessity. Some of my spots are a bunch of 2-300 acre places put together and it's just not practical to try to drive an atv through all them places going in and out of gates and down roads. I don't think I've came across any dog that "had to be walked" for it to hunt. Either  a dog hunts or it don't. Now my dogs might not cast like say the tuskers guys dogs cast. But they will cast. And cover ground out of the truck without me moving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

By walk hunting I mean like actually having to walk the dog. Not casting and going to them that's a whole different story. I enjoy watching a dog work. But I know some peoples dog you literally have to walk off the garmin in a coon hunters term. Feet warmers in a hog hunter term.

Mike n underdog got a great breeding program hopefully they'll chime in!?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Best to Best and Cull the rest.

Find something that performs to your expectations........and breed them to something even better. 

From conception to grave, always ask more of your dog and never be satisfied until it delivers.

Decide early....Tool or Pet, then utilize accordingly. (Doesn't mean cruelty). Working dogs deserve the time and care if they put theirs in.

Sharp shovels. Don't lie to yourself due to looks or attachments. If it doesn't work.......IT DOESN'T WORK!  Scrub and hit the drawing board again. 

Several generations of strict trial and error and you should have something to be proud of. 

I agree with VERY LITTLE of this post.   The part about being honest with yourself might be the only part.

Just a few quick thoughts about something I'm passionate about..


If your breeding two dogs in hopes of getting something better than your starting with, then your starting with the wrong ones.  Breeding should be more about re-producing one or two great dogs, then trying to put something together and hope for the best.

Having said that, some breedings just won't work.  Can't be blind and make excuses for what happens.

Also have to breed for your own use.  No dog will ever please every hunter as we all have different expectations.  Best way if possible is to keep entire litters to evaluate.  Some will be better than others.  If you can't keep them all, try to find people who hunt exactly like you do.  If your breeding casting dogs, knowing how they hunt by being raised by someone who roads does you little good.


Evaluating dogs based on the next generation is different than evaluating based on simply which dog makes the best hunting dog.  For example, slow starters begat slow starters.  Just because a dog finishes out really nice doesn't mean I'm interested in breeding that dog if it took him/her three years to get there.  Then prepotency comes into play, etc...

Know that not all breedings and pups will make good dogs.  Have a goal, but know that the end result will be basically unobtainable.  There will never be complete litters of perfect dogs.

Listen to others and more importantly WATCH others.  Find out who's raising consistent litters of good dogs and pay attention to what they're doing. 

Understand that for every desirable trait you breed a dog for (especially in outcrosses) that your also bringing in all the undesirables.  Unfortunately breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint where you take a little of this and a little of that and end up with a perfect recipe.  As an example, know that you can't simply cross rough and loose and end up with something in between.  You may get a few, but the majority are going to be either rough...or loose. 

 

if we all knew as much as we think we  know about breeding consistant working dogs good dogs would be about 10 cents a piece they'd be so many of m .....  breeding better  dogs  is basically isolateing certaing traits ........

truth ....

Mike breeds them.....i just use them.  ;)

I think the most important factor is being honest with yourself, a dog man truly knows if what he has or bred up is what he likes and if it isn't then he will do what's necessary to move forward, there isn't a dog man alive who started out with a wolf, every body has to start somewhere and it might be getting some really good bred dogs from someone and then breeding for and selecting the things you like and putting your own twist on things or it might be starting with crosses and selectively culling and breeding for what YOU like, there is no definitive guide to breeding the best dogs, there's plenty of legwork, experiments, and trial and error that has already been done that we can go off of.

breeding better dogs in my opinion has to do with paying attention even to the smallest of details....doing our best to get in the puppies minds to decide which is the keeper etc...we need to have that burning desire to have the very best...spend many hours reading about dogs and spend enough time with the pups to see how they work and play...

in breeding the best within a family of dogs...the cream will rise to the top...

Remember...if you have to feed many tracks to make a dog you can expect the same thing with the offspring...you might get lucky a few times but you are headed in the wrong direction...there is one time when I will do that...If I were out of dogs in my family of dogs to breed then I would look past that not so good dog from within that said family and look more at the family and breed him or her and pick from the offspring very carefully...and I will consider myself very fortunate to of had that stepping stone...like that wise king that once said to his son...it is better to marry a fair maiden from a long line of great warriors, kings, and beautiful and intelligent women than to marry a beautiful maiden from questionable stock...

a short story below...

one very hot summer day the cur dogs went right over a hog track they could not smell...a 4 month puppy took the track and was working it backwards for about 100 yards before he lost it and I got very excited about it...the guy I was hunting with says...man why are you so upbeat about it when he was working the track backwards...some folks just don't get it...about 2 or 3 weeks  before when I first took this pup out  I set him down when I turned the dogs out and my brother and I took off walking and we walked about 100 yards or so and I looked for the pup and he wasn't with us...I told my brother to wait that I needed to go to the truck because I needed to get the pup and for a moment I was disappointed...about that time I heard some crashing water and I shined my light and that pup done made a round and was busting through that slew like he had done it all his life looking from side to side...needless to say I was on cloud 9...at that age on a track he sounded like a bawl mouthed hound...he was born a star...I thank the almighty for giving me the wisdom to know it and appreciate it...after thinking on it I realized he was special...I have had quite a few good to great dogs since him but never one which could reason like him...in my mind the difference between a once in a lifetime dog and a great dog is brain power...a good dog might take a while to find that one hog and sometimes not...a great dog can find one fairly quick...but a once in a lifetime dog will make it look easy...and over a period of time will learn after quick checks to know if there is a hog there or not...they say a dog can not reason...but that dog makes me question that...

having said that about that dog I instinctively knew he was not going to be the reproducer because of his back ground...I bred him once and then used one of his sons to reproduce quite a few excellent dogs for me...I bred his son only to his dams side of the family which were mt curs...and if I only liked totally silent dogs I would have culled 9 out of ten pups...

in those years I spent months trying to decide which female gets kept and bred...the pups and dogs were tested for speed and stamina at the beach...tested for taking to water naturally and how well they swam...I like a dog that all you see is the head out of the water and moving forward kind of like a gator would and only making a smooth wake...and these dogs are usually built a certain way and when swimming after a hog these dogs are powerful swimmers that you can see them porpoising like 2/3rds of their bodies coming up out of the water...also tested for wind and finding, breaking to gun and the smell of gun powder...testing for those that took to the woods to make a round etc...etc...always breeding the best to the best within a family...what is the use of trying to breed better dogs if we don't do everything within our power to identify and keep the right pups that fit in the hunting and breeding program...

I don't have the places to do what I used to do...even the remote beach I used is now public...and testing in the canals behind my house are now off limits...

with the knowledge we have access today...most anyone who has that burning desire can produce a high percentage of good dogs...you just need to take off your rose colored glasses and we must be able to see the truth...there are reasons why dogs do what they do...just be logical about it and don't make excuses for the dog...the words "reasons" and "excuses" do not mean the same thing...

I have never found any logic in spending more time, energy or money into a substandard product that never worked to begin with. But if you truly can be honest with yourself about what's in front of you.....then you either have a product that is sufficient and can be built on.....or you have reached satisfaction in going in circles.

Regardless it boils down to what satisfies you.

After raisin more than a few litters myself I think ol mike is gettin the raw end of that deal!  :D

Alotta good info in this thread, thanks for every ones input/opinions/thoughts on the subject, these are the threads I stick around here for.

if you want to breed better  dogs  out of  what you have watch your puppies ...the ones  that shows a natural instinct for hunting or just naturally likes a pig ....they will breed  more  of there own kind ..... most people say  cull hard  cull hard .... out of a litter  you just may  cull the best dog for  any kind  of  reason probably the owners fault includeing myself ...I've  culled  lots  of  dogs that was  probably  better  than the ones  I kept  .......  I've  been doing  this  for a  long time  and  I am no expert but if you can get your breeding down to where they all start looking the  same litter  after  litter you'll find they also will have  a lot of  common desires ....... its  not complicated  .....  mine  perty much all look the same  now so now  I the one I like the best that was  just a natural from start to finish  and  I breed to try and clone him ...easier to do with males I belive  because I can breed  one  male  to  3  gyps  and then cross back the offspring  then back to him again......  but to start off look at the natural instincts the pups  have  you can't teach that and  they will breed more  of there own kind ....

Very good post.  You are the first person I heard makeep so many comments about "natural instinct."   That is what it's all about.  I've read countless comments on these sites about "training dogs."   Often it's folks wanting to boost about their training skills and tell how they can "train this and train that" but all the while they are missing the whole concept.  I'll be the first to tell you, I can'tell train what I need out of a dog.  I have pounced this into my families head and a few weeks ago we were at a dog trial in Tennessee and I over heard my wife asked how we trained our dogs.  Ha ha ha.     I grinned because I knew exactly what she was going to say.  "You just open that brass snap, the rest is up to them."   I heard a hounds men that have the upmost respect for put it like this.  "The training in over when the male knots the female!"

Oconee...we are in agreement...breeding for natural is always the best bet...that has been my reasoning and way of selecting for many years...testing is not so much for training as it is to see which puppy has that natural inclination...natural instinct to bay, trail, range, wind, stop a hog...

However...the better handlers can take those same dogs and get the best out of them...a good dog should be able to wind, be free casted or roaded...he should be able to do all of the above mentioned...

when a breeder has established his kennel with good dogs and he takes a pup to the woods and at six months he goes in that big briar patch after some hogs and he gets run over by a hog and he comes out and wants to give it up for 4-6 months before he starts back up I will cull...it does not matter if he will turn it back on...I see that as a big negative...because he has the potential to reproduce more of the same...

now if that same pup had gone in and then got whipped a little by the hog deep in the briars and that pup went back to baying after a little while I would be very impressed...and even more if he went to hollering and then immediately turned on that raging bawl right in the pigs face...

don't get me wrong...I will not intentionally set a pup up for failure...I like making every move as right as possible so the pups can progress to becoming hog dogs...but I look at every scenario to see whats natural in a pup...

I can get the best out of a dog if he has it, I can assure you of that!   As far as taking a 6 mth old to the woods, I will not take a pup until I feel he is ready to contribute and make an impact on things.   I have heard these stories of world beaters putting it on older dogs at freakish early ages but I just can't help but wonder...........        When 6-8 mth old pups start showing out I will strongly evaluate my pack, I don't care how special a pup is.

Oconee I am with you on that. If a 6 month old pup shows up grown dogs on multiple hunts time to clean house


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've always held with what my dad thought me. Breed the best hunters to the best hunters and if your lucky you'll get 1 good one out of the litter. We raised a litter of half cat half hounds here recently. This past winter was their first winter. Out of a litter of 9, 3 remain today. 2 are doing exceptional and the 3rd is just doing good. But they are all young and I'm patient and will give them a little more time before I make the final cut.

But regardless of breed, I've lived by what my dad has thought me and it seems to be working out pretty well.

All of you gentleman make great points about natural instinct and or ability. I have a friend who lives up in the midwest close to the canadian border and has been hunting bears since the 60's hard, and I mean hunting and guiding full time no other job during season. We were talking about this and he said you can't make a dog something he's not, its ALL in the breeding and either he has it in him or doesn't. He said with a real hunting dog, you don't train it to hunt you only train it what not to hunt lol.

Exactly!!!

I like to see those 6 mo old wonders at a year and a half....more ofter than not they are not around as they never got better than they were at 6 mo.

   if we  all knew what we think we  know about breeding top dogs they'd be ten cents a piece ..........  

if a dog is  doing real good at 6 months old he or she  is  more than likely going to make a dog...... but you do not know how one is going to mature and finish ........

some of the best dogs I have had showed me as pups that they were on track to be just that...

but having said that I have had pups that stayed out of the fights for pecking order and side stepped confrontations with their siblings...yet were almost like bull dogs on a hog by a little over a year...and the tough siblings backed up and bayed...yes it is a crap shoot more often than not but when I raise my own pups and I am observant then I can be right more often than not...of course I am talking about an established line of dogs...

when I talk about breeding dogs I am talking about an established line of dogs...

I do have one question I will go ahead and ask and then answer because I think this represents most anyone offered the opportunity...

If I went to a breeder to buy a pup that was selling 4 pups and I wanted the best one of these 6 month old pups and one particular pup looked and acted right and when they were turned out that one pup went and made a round and I observed a squirrel run up a tree...and the pup winded the squirrel that he could not see...and then he ran towards where the scent came from and he trailed to the tree and lets say the pup was excited and was working hard trying to locate the squirrel that he never found...and the 3 other pups are just hanging around for the ride and actually trying to get that pup to play instead...

so which of the 4 pups would I buy?

to me it is no brainer...the pup that showed natural hunting ability...

I like early starting dogs that reproduce more of the same...that is a goal to shoot for...

most of the pups I raised started at 9 and ten month old and were pretty decent dogs by a year to 14 months...but I liked those that started younger that were trying to do what was bred into them...the want to hunt and catch game...

Reuben I suppose I would be a liar if I said I wouldn't pick the obvious pup but it's far more complicated than that and we all know it.  By now i'my sure you've seen enough pups mature to know there's no way anyone can say how them other three will turn out.  This is exactly my point.  I show all my pups game ages between 6-9 months and years I like to see them do things I like but you can bet your butt i'my not pulling any plugs until they all get an equal opportunity at a reasonable age.     The point I was trying to make was NO 6-9 mth old pup should shine in good company and I simply don't care what they do before I start them at about 9 mths.  That's just me.

A lot of good dogs got naps while sub par got feed to long that's why I agree with oconee on this. Just because a pup does good young don't mean it will be better then the rest just means he started first which is great but take with a grain of salt.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had a great dog man explain it to me like this.  "They all start, some at 4 mths, some at 10 mths.   You can't judge them until they start and what they do before they start is irrelevant."    If one doesn't show me what I want at a year old he's done but I understand this man's concepts.   As far as the 6 mth old barn burners go, everyone wants to brag on their super young pups because less is expected at that age.  The point is, I'm only concerned about what's expected when they are old enough to hang with the big dogs.

A good feeling is knowing that when you turn your dogs out they will look as good as the any...

Agreed.

It's simple. Feed them a constant supply of pigs and if you like what they do keep him if not cull him. You cannot ever predict how the genes will match up. Too many possibilities.

Too many possibilities is right...

some folks say the pups can only be as good as the parents which is not true...the truth is "the pups can only be as good as what the parents have in them"...because they can be better or worse...

Proper handling/raising can bring out the best in a hunting dog...
Or can ruin a pup that has potential with the wrong handling...

I agree no one can "predict" but a guy can dang sure put the odds in his favor by doing his homework on the pedigrees and ancestry of the dogs.  Find a family of dogs that have produced what you need over a few generations and breed dogs that stack as many of the ancestors that suit your needs and you'll be surprised what you can accomplish.  To many folks get caught in breeding best individual to the best individual and neglect to pay any attention to the ancesty.  The dogs will likely breed more like whats behind them than they do themselves.  JMO

I agree...the hardest part about starting a line of dogs is finding a family of dogs that will get you started in the right direction...


but I will add that I will do all I can in picking the best pups as I see it at the time...one can not always keep the whole litter...so what I do is test the pups and might cull the obvious at 6-8 weeks, keep 6 pups to about 16 weeks of age and cut one more at 6 months and more than likely what I keep after that will make good dogs but only the best of the 4 remaining will get breeding privileges...sometimes of those 4 I will keep 2 if that was all I needed...but it is well worth the expense in doing it that way...


as the line is developed we will see a higher percentage of keepers per litter...and they culling bar can be raised...I call it purifying the gene pool...the cream rises to the top...

I know literally nothing when it comes to breeding dogs, so I'm asking questions in the attempt to learn..... That being said.... If you bred best individual to best individual a couple times, wouldn't you eventually be breeding dogs with good ancestry all the way around, even if you started with just 2 decent hunting scatter bred mutts?

slim...it will be a longer road to get consistency...but yes it can be done...after all all breeds started out that way...

Ok. That's was my exact train of thought. Figured there's no other way to breed your own line/family of dogs than to start that way, y'all are just referring to finding someone who has started to get a head start on where your trying to head with the dogs. Thanks for the quick reply Reuben


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now, how many breedings and how long do you believe it would take to develop a consistent  line that produces consistency if starting from scatterbred dogs? When does a line become "your" line? Some folks believe it's their line when they buy two dogs and breed them...others believe it takes more than a generation or two...

you can increase  your  odds  by line breeding and culling out the oddballs from breeding stock no matter  how  good  they are  ....... my dogs are black brindle  dogs  I have  select bred  the rest out ....that's where my consistantcy has  come from  .... those  oddballs  you get is throw backs and can change or I say will change  your  breeding to some degree ..... I haven't had  one in a long time... people ask me  some times  larry  you want to breed to this certain dog and get back some of your old blood ...I say  no  no  no .....I get more  consistant all the time and I like it .....now far as dogs like my joe dog was  well they come  here  and there but any dog I get half  as  good as  he was  is still  a  good dog and thats success ... the thing about opinions is they gonna  be based  on personal experience  so nobodies wrong here true opinions based on what  you no is not wrong just maybe  not exactly wright  just like my opinions are.....  

I'd say about 6 generations to get consistant ..... 

I think it all depends on how tightly the stock you started with was bred.  If a guy picks a couple families of dogs that have been bred pretty tight and takes off he could accomplish the consistency in a matter of 2-3 generations, assuming he choose two families that already closely fit his needs.  Now if most dogs in the ancestry of the families of dogs choose were scattered completely and no resemblances could be found for generations them it could take a while to start seeing consistentency.  Just my thoughts, I'm by no means a pro breeder buy i've  had the pleasure of listening to and being around some of the best tho.

Larry, did you notice your dogs getting smaller the tighter you bred them? My last litter all came out quite a bit smaller after 4 generations.

I'm not Larry but I will tell you that is a very common effect of what they call inbreeding depression. A lot of times when genes get real tight loss of size is a lot of times what is first noticed. We used to see it all the time with bulldogs. It just happened with my friends litter of Mayday pups he had about 14 months ago. The dam was a little over 50lb the father walks around 60lb and so far it looks like none of the pups male or female will get even close to 50lb so far the females looks they are going to range between 35-40, and males 40-47lb maybe. Both dogs were very closely bred, and both bred pretty tight from the same family.

Whats weird in my opinion is how some families hold up to inbreeding really well and you can breed them super tight without many problems and other families as soon as you start, you notice defects and problems. I always thought that was based on how big of a gene pool you started with but there seems to be other factors too.

I think i'll have to disagree with the dogs getting smaller with tight breeding theory.  In my experience the "game dog" breeders and "plott bear dog" breederst are the tightest of all breeders and I have been around many breeders of both and have yet to see it.  I fact probably the tightest plott bear dog breeder I know has huge dogs.    I suppose sometimes a litter may come out a little smaller on occasion depending on certain parents from the particular family but as a whole I can't believe inbreeding will shrink the line, no matter how tight.   Another thing I strongly disagree with is "outcrossing!"   Outcrossing is only needed to bring in needed traits from another specimen from another tight family that exhibits the needed trait stongly.  IMO.    When a tightly bred cross fails it's not a sign that you need an outcross, it's a sign to not cross them two family members again.  If you have v what you need in you dogs then keep it and do not add anything else.  All crosses don't work and by jumping thru your butt and outcrossing because one cross didn't meet your expectations you could possibly bring in all sorts of unknown traits to deal with for generations to come for no reason.   Sorry just some more rambling from stuff i've learned from breeders I REALLY respect. 

Well we definitely get it in gamedogs, it doesn't always happen but it definitely happens. I can't say for anything else but here is a good article about the science of inbreeding. I think that it goes back to some families can stand up to inbreeding better than others. Just a little more food for thought  http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-costs-and-benefits-of-inbreeding   you might agree with it you might not but just more info for all of us to see. 

Just like TheRednose....I've seen it myself

Sorry some reason my post did not go through. But yeah it definitely happens in gamedogs for sure, but there is a lot of different thoughts about it out there. Here is a link to some pretty interesting info on the science of inbreeding  http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-costs-and-benefits-of-inbreeding  you can believe it or you may not but either way it's pretty interesting.

I have NOT seen it.

I've learned a lot so far but I have a question. I got two male curs that were inbred but out of a very good family of dogs. Only two of litter that turned out. If I bred one of my males to a good stock gyp would I breed the inbred out? Or will the bad inbreeding traits go to the pups?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mike it depends  on what I breed  I just have  so many options  to breed to keep the body style I like ...hope these  pics  work here is my sue dog and  his  daughter ....sue  is 4  generations to 5 bottom and all line  bred  back to 2  females and  one  male over 20 years  ago .....(http://parkercurdogsforum.proboards.com/attachment/download/319)http://parkercurdogsforum.proboards.com/attachment/download/319 (http://parkercurdogsforum.proboards.com/attachment/download/319)

(http://s11420.storage.proboards.com/3341420/t/ex1o_POihRKaxFwUe7M7.jpg)

(http://s11420.storage.proboards.com/3341420/t/Hzs2FG4ao2zZSLueeiNG.jpg)

Those sure are some nice looking dogs Mr. Parker

Thanks fellas... I was just curious. Most all the dogs related to mine were in the 60-70 lb range, a few oddballs that were over 70. The litter I'm referring to are mostly 50-60 lb dogs... which is about right for my liking. I'll be curious to see how this new litter turns out.

Good lookin dogs Larry.

THANK YOU to all the experienced dog men on this thread for sharing your experience, your knowledge, and your opinions. It's nice to see guys who have achieved your level of success be willing to share your insight @ no $!
-
There are a few of us middle age fellas who are @ a point in our lives where we have the resources/time and are willing to listen, learn, and apply the knowledge you have to share.
-
Hopefully we can take what you have to teach us and apply it in a manner that will allow us to push more quality workin dogs into the woods.

Second that ^ shotgun

as a kid we did not worm or vaccinate our dogs and they were all mutts...mutts have a very diversified gene pool...the first pure bred pup I got very sick and it was my first trip to the vet ever...he said the pup caught distemper and would die and he did...a not so diverse gene pool so the pups will all look alike etc...

Right now there are major issues with tigers/pandas and other animals that are on the endangered list due to a lack of diversity in their genes...and they say that this is a major issue that needs fixing if the species of these animals are to survive and not become extinct...the issues are low ferility, inability to fight off disease  etc...

I saw smaller testicles and some smaller dog and litter size slightly smaller...but they were hunting hunting dogs...

Larry, I remember when you announced in the back pages of Full Cry that you were starting a line of dogs...was a good while back...

Well, Rueben, I think you understand I respect you and agree with you more than not. But that was a pretty passive/aggressive post IMO.

I agree that breeds were made from cross dog mixing but traits are set by tightening up on what works...

...or else we'd be running and working and breeding solely on scattered up mutts that fit the bill for whatever and it would work and wouldn't be no job specific breeds or lines thereof.

Specific traits are/were bred on then locked down thru line breeding. That's were breeds developed for job specific traits and along with that came phenotype, creating breeds.

Is there an occasional need for an out cross of a family or even a breed...sometimes yes IMO, contrary to ocenee's. ...to counter a bit of depression and these should be tested and evaluated for real results and it it worked retightened on to really see if there was a gained advantage or take another course to attain some vigor in a stale line or breed

.....respectfully from an observer and study of dogs/breeds and not claiming any measurable experience of breeding or creating.

That being said, while I do ascribe to a 'natural dog ' (laughs, I side joke with ab guys) theory, I also think a keen eye and testing and even training go a long way with picking such a natural dog

Should read tightened on -sorted, and culled- then bred on for specific traits

With that, I would respectfully volley this,not so passive and moderately aggressive post back to your court, and say there are folks out there that have set out and are setting out to create a vision and have either succeeded or are testing and progressing to succeed in creating a vision thru selective line breeding and there are those that's success was halted from some factor and may pick up and continue where they left off or change course and still have a goal that hopefully will be reached. But to pi$$ on another's grits is sour grapes at best and vomed off disengenuine at face value. Respectfully and your friend in dogs, and elsewhere and otherwise I'm almost sure of it...
 
....that was a runon sentence if I ever read one lol

one of the questions asked to me all the time about my dogs  is  larry  you need to outcross you are so line bred you are  inbred ...I say yeah  but what  you think all the rabbits rats and squirrels  do they been breeding the same  pool for hundreds  of  years  in an area .... a  good friend  of mine  told me  one  time if  you raise  enuff  chickens  you'll have  some born without feather's  hahahaha  ..   when mine grow  8 legs and  run sideways  like a spider  i'll  cross out  hahahaha  but mine  is  perty sound so far ...... hen I have a litter I DO NOT  baby them ..and don't breed runts..if you do your asking for trouble .......that's tried and true from nature itself and probably the cause of the panda problem human interference .....

I agree with what you said...

human interference brings a lot of issues because we tend to vaccinate and worm the pups and make warm beds for them in the winter...

on the other hand the coyote bitch must be born with the natural ability to nurture her pups a certain way as well as the sire to help feed the pups not to mention that they sire/dam had top live through disease and then make it on their own once they were wiened...so if we followed the rules of mother nature it would be a different game...survival of the fittest according to the balance or imbalance of nature for that particular time...

that's why I say what I said about not babying my litter's and runts .. like the coyote natural culling makes for  a stronger gene pool with instincts to survive in a certain environment.... mother's in the wild hardly ever have  young in the same  place  why . disease . turn a gyp out to have  pups  she will usually go dig under some log pile  in  (new ) ground ..no disease ....  if I didn't let the natural process cull out the weak at birth I guarantee you  I'd  end  up breeding myself problems ......

mr parker , you are exactly right . nature is the only sustanable law there is .....  and it will apply to the human race sooner or later also .

It's a common thought that inbreeding makes your animals smaller but I have seen it go the other way just as much.

I could care less how mother nature and Coyotes sort out in the breeding.  I'm more concerned about the results i'v witnessed from good houndsmen and dog breeders.  The best dogs I have seen are typically tightly bred and the men I see have the best results are all line breeding on some blood they has good results with.  Now how that fits into mother nature's plan, I don't know and don't care.

well the way it fits  in is in weak offspring witch can result in poor genetics futher down the line .... mother  nature and natural culling takes  care  of that now I worm and parvo my pups  like everyone  else ...but sound stock  is  better  bred  dogs ...... its  just conversation...

Mr.  Parker, the guys I follow advice on breeding from didn't just have a few good generations.  I understand how nature wins in the end and I hope no one thinks i'v been taught to keep and breed weaklings.

Everything we are doing with dogs goes against mother nature.     The hunt and prey drive we breed into them is unnatural.  The dogs will run themselves to death or die latched onto a boar. 
  The kennels and small spaces they are raised in and live in is unatural.
The dog food we feed them is unatural and the good stuff is cooked out of it while we add stuff like cereals too it, preservatives, and other stuff.  This alone taxes the immune system way beyond that of wild dogs yet we say we are gonna let mother nature take its couse.   If we are not gonna feed the dog the nutrients it's digestive system was designed to function off of in the wild and then say we are gonna let nature take its course, we aren't really letting nature take its course.  Your already starting the dog out with a taxed immunity making the dog at an increased risk of contracting illnesses it's body can't ward off like a well fed wild dogs immunity can.    A wild dogs brain is stimulated daily through its life where as our dogs set in the pen for several days at a time and their entertainment and stimulation goes about as far as staring at flies.   This adds stress to our dogs, lack of excercise, and so on.        While genes play a part in the health of wild dogs, their diet is what I belive plays the most critical role.       
    What I'm saying is we are breeding dogs to do way more than their wild counterparts and giving them less to do it on.    We breed into them a drive that doesn't switch off when they are in the feild, they work 100 times harder than the wild dogs but aren't in as good of physical shape as the wild dogs are.  Our dogs aren't working to feed themselves.  If so they would stop hunting after they caught the first pig.    We have bred into them an unnatural desire and hunt drive that keeps going and going and going.   Dogs will run themselves to death, run the pads off their feet, take lots of punishment from pigs, even hold till the death.  This isn't natural in mother nature.   The diet in which we feed them doesn't have what a dogs digestive system is designed to have no matter what the label tells you it has in it or how good they claim it is for your dog.   We feed our dogs a sub par diet and expect them to go far above and beyond what nature's wild dogs do.
   I subscribe to feeding a proper raw diet and excercise and stimulation and big pens to live in, run and play in, and live with other dogs in.   I do what I can for their physical and mental health and do so in large part for healthier dogs and to put as much nature back into the dogs as I can.   Going through all this, I will help my dog up when it's down.  If it means giving antibiotics (which I hate) I will.    I worm my dogs because of the unnatural environment they are in and because they are not products of wild nature and because I myself will go see a doctor now and then, my dogs are no more special than I am.          I do my best to research treating things in my dogs and myself that don't involve anitibiotics.   I research how to have naturally healthier dogs.     Their diet is the first thing in this and this kinda natural diet can't be found in a bag or a can.     I do my best to let mother nature take its course and work for my dogs by putting as much of mother nature into my dogs as I can
      That's my take on the natural way.  I like a little of both worlds.

nobody thinks you been breeding weaklings  that's  just conversation not insinuating  anything on anyone ..... I've raised over 70 litters  of just these  black dogs myself  starting with 3 original dogs one male 2 females ....... I have  an educated guess  you could say .....

good post black streak...that is about how I see it as well...I like using mother nature as  an example for things I see and believe in amongst other things...

I just don't help weak pups  survive and I don't breed with em later on if they make it ....now  I worm and  parvo and the rest .......

Thanks,  I just wanted to throw some things out there that I think get overlooked since nature got brought up into the selection process.     A few points of contrast can round off the rough edges of what I said but it would draw the thread way off breeding 101 for me to bring any of them into the discussion.
      
         I have read some interesting but opposing view points on this thread and both seem to have merit.   Things such as line breeding often produces smaller dogs.    From what I've come to understand, this holds water but Mr. Parker says no and points out his experience of the 70 litters originating from the 3 dogs.    I'm assuming no out crossing was done for him to viemently defend such.   Very interesting to me.            
      I've pondered on things such as this and thought that line breeding will have an effect on size if the line gets too inbred.   Mr. Parker would make one second guess this when regarding this as an absolute rule.       I'm more into crossing bred dogs than pure breeds. Example: pit x dane for simplicity sakes.   F1 tends to yeild some dogs of good size but they aren't all the same size as expected.    Breed 2 F1's together from this litter or different ancestors but still pit x dane crossed dogs and the resulting litter tends to be smaller sized dogs than the F1's were.    I'm sure this would stop at some point but when adding a large breed to a cross, your often doing it for size so taking the progressively smaller pups and line breeding them isn't taken very far.   Not much cross breeding of this kinda nature is done here either to really have much of an effect on information gathering.
    I've been told that when out crossing a family of big dogs to bull blood such as the bull terrier, the bull terrier will consistently throw bigger pups than the pit.       What the heck!!!???         Lots of guys have a little pit blood in there bay dogs now to get them grittier.  Are these the dogs that are being line bred and getting smaller?   Could it be something like this?  Makes you wonder and want to investigate it a little but not enough info out there.   Just something to think about like I do.  I don't have an answere  just questions that can't be definitively answered.
    On the flip side of this I bred two 80 pound dogs together.   One was about 3/4 wolfhound but was small for her blood.  The other was a stag on the smaller side.   All the offspring are gonna be bigger than their parents and some at 9 months old are over 100 pounds and 2 inches taller than the tallest parent.    This isn't surprising given the amount of wolfhound blood but I didn't  see it coming to the extent it did on a couple of the big males.
    Have 2 bitches from a line of dogs.  Wolfhound, deerhound, mastiif.   They aren't huge and don't have much less wolfhound and deerhound in them than the pups I mentioned do, if any at all.   Just a lot less matiff in the pups.    The two bitches are not big dogs to me and the guy that has this line of dogs sees the size of the dogs decrease the tighter he breeds thus one of the reasons he has out crossed over the years..  No bull blood in his line either as of now.  The pups will get smaller than any of the pure ancestors used in developing the line of dogs if he breeds to tight.                
    It's very interesting how some people see the decrease in size dramatically while others don't experience it at all.      Lots of variables and things not done  the same between breeders.  One might be breeding the biggest of the dogs from a litter while another might be trying to retard the size a little in the beginning.  One might be working inside a pure breed and others might have crossed outside the breed.          
 Could the unintentional size retardation when breeding tight families be more conducive to one breed than another.     Lots of interesting stuff to consider when giving a definite answere and coming to an absolute conclusion.     I have enjoyed reading the different opinions and veiws but they kinda just add to the mystery.
     Anyone care to make a stab at sharing their thoughts on some of this stuff?

This time around and early in the game I started with a 50 pound dog...redbone pitbull mix...I saw 5 of his brothers and he was about in the middle...bred him to a 35 pound Kemmerer gyp and now have 2 males out of that cross and they are about 60 pounds...bred one of those pups to a 50 pound plott gyp and the 4 pups I kept will average about 60 pounds...

Line breeding in my opinion also brings in new blood...inbreeding brings in very little...I think it will not be a problem until we see t or 6 generations of tight breeding...

My gyp had a litter and one of the pups came out and wasn't moving basically still born my wife grabbed the pup shook her up and down blew in her nose pup came to life. She was half the size of the rest very thin skin you could actually see her insides moving around. My wife bottle feed her daily at 6 weeks she was just like the others she is a good dog now she was worth the effort. All thru the word you hear of people dogs horses and so on that shouldn't be here that went on to be great so all that stuff is none sense to me if it has a chance then we should put forth the effort to give the animal a sporting chance. Good thing our parents ain't put such high standards on us or this forum would be empty   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good post Peel.  My wife brought two males in the house once to warm them up and save their lives because they got pushed away from the mother in the welping box.  I ended up raising the whole litter and boy howdy I wish I hadn't culled them pups that pushed these two weakling males away because i'd give them to Mr. Parker and he could show me how my wife went wrong when I unloaded these males that are still here.

nobody said the week pups  wouldn't  make  good dogs  I just said I wouldn't breed with them ....and I  just don't save week pups ...maybe that's why I don't  need to outcross ya'll ever thought of that ......I'm no scientist ...I just know  what I have seen and my opinion is mine .....but  one  thing I do not do is pretend to know  what I don't .....

  I just had a litter where one male & 3 females were twice as big as their siblings (five- 3 males & 2 females). Talked to my Vet about it & she said no doubt the bigger pups were from the first breeding & the smaller pups were from the 2nd or 3rd breeding. I always breed a gyp every other day while she is in heat trying to catch the entire heat cycle. Now I wonder if that is a good thing. All the pups are healthy looking, just never had that many smaller ones.

I agree with Parker...we have to cull hard to have the best...in my original program/project I did just that and my culls were probably better than the average hog dog...when I say cull I mean it has no place at my home but will probably make an excellent dog for someone else...If I had three males that were close in all areas of hunt I would then go farther back and if one was an early starter I would breed that dog...I think everyone breeding dogs should demand the very best and nothing less...

if you have to do extra to keep pups alive that is ok...but this should count against the pup as a breeder...

having to feed lots of tracks to make a dog then you can expect the same if done often enough when breeding future generations...

breeding to the highest standard is the only way to produce that type of dog...and it starts before the pups are even born...

I even throw in an old sweaty T-Shirt in the whelping box by time the pups are 10 days old so they can smell me 24/7...

some folks say you can get a high percentage of hunting dogs out of a litter...but you can...by selecting the very best from a litter and keeping them related...if the need to outcross is there do it with a linebred dog that brings in little outside blood if possible...breed in an outside bred dog too often and the line of dogs is not yours...

linebreeding and inbreeding don't mean jack if your standards are set low...

I get what y'all are saying but what gets me is that you put so much time and effort in to breeding the right dogs. And then just let the pups die off at will and cull if they don't start fast enough. Now culling a dog at a yr to 18 months is one thing it didn't work out that's fine but a few week old pup makes no sense to me  I guess different strokes for different folks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen the chittest pup in a liter and also the worst acting year old dog that would not hit a lick.  A dog that never done a dang thing till 22 months old when the light bulb finally went off  Then turn into one of the greatest dogs of his time and one of the greatest of all time.

It all means NOTHING when they are a pup!

Instead of pups & dogs having to adapt all the time to my are your private high expectations and carry the load of yours are my ego, maybe it should be the owners, breeders and handlers that need to adapt to the pups and dogs.  Maybe we should be a little patience.  One needs to also learn looks are only skin deep and don't mean Jack.  Just some good for thought.

Hey Jimmy can you share some of your thoughts on line breeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing. I don't know much about breeding hounds or hog dogs, but I have had the pleasure to speak with some well known bulldog men about it. One of them told me during a long phone convo that if you know how to linebreed you can go longer, but sooner or later you always eventually will have to outcross. He explained that since this is the case that your family is only as good as the outcrosses you have made. Because they are basically what allows your family of dogs to carry on. That made sense to me but I would like to hear your thoughts on it. Especially since you have bred top notch bulldogs and hog dogs both.

I believe  ya'll are getting the wrong picture ...I simply don't baby them .. I worm  and  parvo and everything else ....and  if I have  one looks a little  punny i'll worm it best I can ....

well looks  does  mean something in breeding a  line ..... it shows consistency  .......

I have not read this whole post but I see some talking about mother nature.  Mother Nature to me is one of the most important breeding tools a man can have.  When breeding a line of dogs she is the one that should tell a man when its time to cross his heavily bred line of dogs.  Inbreeding and heavy line breed a line of dogs will only work for so long.  Size comes into play, the futher you go stamina, wind, lungs, then a dog will not heal as fast are well as a crossed type vigor dog and the futher you go after some of this defects starts now I are breeding yourself into a coner and into a comer of hell.  You have to know when to stop cross to put health virgor back into your captured traits from your heavly bred line.  Another thing once a dog gets so inbred there is nothing else for the line to give, it only goes so far period. Each line is different and can take so much.  Proven facts ask any gentic expert are better yet somebody that has done it.  I have seen many many lines of years and years of line and inbreeding families.  Lol. The dumbest thing.  One man has his dogs bred for 60 years without a cross he says all his dogs look like they came out of marine boot camp just specimans of dog dom.  Another man been doing the same thing he says for 60 years his dogs are smaller n size, some major undershot , some dont have much vigor and health to them.  He says the great performance isn't there anymore.  Funny thing aint it?  One man's specimans of dogs inbred line bred for 60 years another man same thing and 3/4 his yard looks like they ready for the nursing home. Hummmmm who you gonna belive? The man with the specimans are the man that needs health ins for dogs.  I have seen this many times with my own eyes.  Not only that but I done it with the bulldogs a line can only take so much before you go to hurting ur line of dogs.  Then it's either cross for real and show it are cross and don't show it.

Thats the truth now.

Selection plays a huge part in the success of any breeding program, if you started with real clean stock you could get farther without needing an outcross. As far as size goes selection and foundation stock both play a major role, if there were a majority of smaller dogs in the foundation stock line breeding would lead to smaller dogs, the opposite would be true if you only selected the larger dogs, or if the majority of the foundation stock were larger etc and so on.
If you selected only based on performance then the size would lean toward whatever was the best performing stock in that particular line.
 The guys that claim to have a "line" of dogs that have several outcrosses in 3 gens or so really only have hybrids that are not a "line" of dogs. Crossbred dogs are just that and should not be considered a "line" of dogs until bred several gens without an outcross even if they are crossbred or hybrid to begin with.
I have saw line bred dogs get smaller and stay large according to foundation and selection. Just because you breed'em your way at your house doesn't make them a true "line" of dogs.

Red nose....A Wiseman u spoke to.....The outcross is what is either going to bring out the best in your heavy line bred inbred line of dogs are it is going to bring put the worst.  I have said for years and years the outcross is what brings the hammer down.  You got the right cross with your line of family culled dogs and the sky is the limit.  The almighty key is finding another culled family of dogs bred in similar ways but not the same  line of dogs up front.  In other words really no close kin are none at all.  If it clicks look out.  Once youve done this and it works great now you can go back to your family line and line and inbred till Mother Nature tells u it's time again.

A man does not even have to go completely out with his dogs.  He can do what is called a back cross.  A back cross is a cross of light kin dogs.  In other words all dogs up front look like they are unkin until you get back to about the fourth fifth six hen then your road map comes together and you start to see that the top side and the bottom side really all come from the same family type foundation type dogs just threw very different channels of dogs.  Some may have a hint of a cross here and there threw the years but basaclly all going back together to the old foundation dog like let's say Dibo are Cottons Bullet.  A lot of times in these kinds of breeding you will get a throwback to one are two of the old old dogs of the great years.

Yes the outcross is the FUEL to your motor which is your line, inbred family of cull dogs.

Yo The more potent the fuel the better that big block family motor gonna run.

Got me!

I agree Old man.....I guess I should have said it better.  What I meant was I have seen great great dogs in their like of work come in all shapes and forms.    I've seen pups that look like crap turn into specimans of dogs as they aged.

I agree with a u said there on crossed, hybred , inbred and so on.

I will never know if a 2 year old dog will turn on...at least not in my yard...if I raised giant bred dogs then maybe I would be more forgiving...

breeding an outcross to your line like Jimmy said the dog should be from another line of well bred dogs...but if the litter is not consistent in looks and how they act get rid of all the pups and gp elsewhere...when it works then use one of the pups that has proven himself...breed him once into the line and no more...you can then breed one of the offspring from that cross as much as needed...

once the line is established slow the breedings way down otherwise you will be baqck in that corner again...

but to have the best one must cull accordingly...when I say cull it means it don't stay in my yard...but that pup could be great in someone elses yard...when we are breeding dogs it is our responsibility to breed the very best at all times...

at the beginning finding the right dogs can be difficult...once you have found then then it becomes fairly easy if you know a good dog and have a good knowledge of breeding...

The truth is "Breeding" dogs gets blown way out of proportion often times.   I don't understand what's so complicated about trying to duplicate a certain dog by using multiple offspring of his to do it.    I mean hell, if you find a dog you like then the more times you add him to you line the more likely you are to reproduce him on occasion somewhere down the road.   I know that's an overly simply way of looking at it but it really can't be perfected in the first place.  JMO.     As far as everyone's standards on confirmation, hunting traits, natural ability to ward off disease, starting age, and all other things judged toward the breeding program, that's all up to each individual.   Just put as much of the genes you want together, cull the ones that don't suit you and breed the ones that do back to one another.  Just remember everything you introduce newer blood you're introducing a HELLVA LOT more than you think and you'lol have to deal with everything introduced moving forward.   Lots of guys outcross to say a dog with a great nose to maybe add some nose to their line but the dog will bring a lot more with him than just his sniffer, good and bad, so it all depends on how bad your line needs something whether it's worth the risk of adding bad genes along with the good your after.  When and if I ever get mine like I like them you can bet your butt i'my not taking a step backwards.   It takes SEVERAL dogs to keep what you worked for alive on your own yard but it all comes down to how bado a man wants his program to succeed and stay successful.  Just more rambling, take care.

It looks to me that the general senses is that the out cross is bad and inferior to the line of dogs most are breeding.    Lots of ego driving this I think.    Those that have been line breeding good dogs for a while shouldn't have problems getting a hold of a good outcross.  People breeding good dogs have circles and connections.  Every  good hunting dog breeder I know of can  borrow an awsome male to breed to his best female that's in no way inferior to his female or family line of dogs.   The dog he or she borrows to breed to the family line could be better.   
     I really appreciated what Texas Hog Dogs had to say and it really  in line with my beliefs and perspectives

I read all the time on here where people will say that often times the pup that starts out blowing the others away often times peaks out and the other pups later to turn on surpass the early starting pup.  I read as much about the latest starting pup being the all star of the litter.    Yet as much as I hear about the two things I still read where most will not even consider breeding to the late starting dog that turns out to be the better of the litter.  I do see on occasion a person or two saying what a pup does is irrelevant while it's a pup.   This is where I stand on the issue.     I'd much rather look at and make my judgments and decision making off what transpires and plays out over the long term than placing much emphasis on the short term pup stage. 
 

real good  dogs  you own or  may have  owned  or  somebody  you know  has  owned  is not the same thing as breeding a  line  of  dogs ..dogs have a tremendous gene pool within each type .... 95  percent  of the people with  dogs  do not  have the resources to effectively  line  breed ......   you  can line  breed  or  selective  line breed  where  you narrow  down certain traits  ...... when you start getting it narrowed down they will start looking alike ....... I  have  my line narrowed down ...now I try to clone the  best that are just born hogdogs that have a natural liking for hunting hogs ...... I guarantee  you 95  percent breeding dogs  have  not  narrowed  it down .....if  so they would not be looking to outcross .... 

Birds of a feather flock together.   When a person has established and bred a line of good hunting dogs he isn't just the run of the mill backyard breeder.   He has a network of people involved with the program.   If not then he is gonna have a ton of dogs on his yard and so many dogs that there would just be no feasible way to hunt them enough to find the best to breed to.  You would just essential tally be breeding on looks.     
   Guys that are truely line breeding good hunting dogs aren't  going at it alone.   Just the hobbiest isn't who I am referring to but I think that's who you are referring to Mr. Parker.  The guys truely line breeding hunting dogs have connections to other guys doing the same thing around the country or the world.   The guys that are doing this have no problem getting access to a good outcross to another line of dogs comparable to his own.   At this level of breeding, a dog half way around the world or in a different country or other side of this country is still a viable option as an outcross.  Good breeders of good hunting lines of dogs realize that you don't get out of your dogs what you don't put into them.     If you are of the mindset that a dog is to far away to breed to, then your road will be a lot longer without the dog, time, effort, money etc will be increased also.      If you don't have connections like this when you are a line breeder I'm sure your line will surely show it in one way or another.        I venture to say, what ever your level of breeding, there are dogs out there you can cross to that are comparable to yours.  If you are a breeder of hunting dogs and don't have connections like this or are unaware that birds of a feather flock together then maybe it's an ego problem that keeps you out of the flock or from making good connections.     
    I'm not saying anyone needs to outcross but if a breeder did want to, it's pretty egotistical to think there is not a suitable line of dogs to do so with that would result in setting your own line back.   If your a halfxxx breeder then your connections probably are about the same.   Goes back to what I said about the birds of a feather.  If your an advanced line breeding super guy, you probably have same like minded connections.
   Of your are just a back yard breeder, then why even speak of line breeding?       

I agree with u on that Mr.Parker.  I bred some of the purest Gr Ch Nigerino dogs in the world not country but world.  Red dogs with black mask.  We had six liters on the ground at one time and had to keep each liter in separate quaters.  The reason being if a liter ever got out and got with another liter there was no way to be able to tell them apart.  They where that close. Bred in all different ways threw Nigerino and they where all clones .  Yes sir that's when you know you got things right that and their performace matches their pedigree and does what their pedigree says they should do not the other way around because a great beautful pedigree is pure a$$ wipe trash if the dog cannot perform to the level in which he is bred.

Yes to be a breeder of a line are lines of dogs does not happen over nite.  20 yrs invested and you are just getting warmed up.  Yes also back in the day you are right we had a network of friends and family that dogs where sent out just to keep the dogs close to home.  Lord be with the man that let one of our family dogs out.  It took me years and years to realise a family of dogs cannot reach its full producing potential without some help from another family of dogs.  It's only in reason to figure out why and how.  Lines of dogs go stale no matter how great they are over time being bred over and over and over it just stands to reason this is the only thing that can happen over time.  A breeder that is not willing to adjust to what his dogs and line are telling him is a breeder on the decline Along with his line.  I have seen folks get a holt of some old stale inbred lines of dogs bred great and true but stale from no new refreshing blood to let it breath then a rookie comes along and breeds his scatter bred from hell and back dog but a great dog at what he does and Boom he gets famous lol and a new line of dogs is born.  Don't BS yourself it sure has happened. To each his on man .  Do it how ever you want nothing wrong with that but if you should run into a backlash of just par dogs you might want to reflect back on these breeding post.

So at what ages are you culling pups from a litter, when you're choosing breeding stock? Do you keep the whole litter til a year? Til two years after you have hunted them a bit? Keep your most promising pups at six months? I know this subject has been talked about a lot on here, I'm interested in what you think

Good points Jimmy. I agree with the ped means nothing if the dogs can't perform. With performance animals I was always told don't forget that form follows function. It's great to have uniform looks, but it is even better if they have uniform traits and or characteristics. JMO I guess when you have both generation after generation that would be the proof you do have a line or family at that point.

Man its hard to anwer that a ?......Now a days is nothing like yesteryear.  People don't have the time space patiences money and more to be able to keep whole liters at a rmtime.  Use to we did none went no were specially if they were bred for breeding stock.  Like was said above back in yesteryear we had a circle of friends family that we all kept dogs so none went nowhere but with us.  This is ideal but if you can't then before long you will know what kinda eye for a dog you have..

Rednose,  u know it's funny this breeding post come up on here.  I was just talking to a old time bulldog breeder of 50 years are more just the other day.  He owned the old Ma bitch he is the foundation to the Alein/Bullnumber 2 line of dogs and the White line of dogs.  He also owned litermates to Tommy gun, Boecephus,  had Chinaman sister, Red Danger, siblings to No Regrets , a ton of Klaus Zeke dogs the list just goes on and on and on.  Back in the day this man went after performance dogs could give two Chris about the way they were bred.  He bred best to best and the great dogs came like pop corn.  Now in his older years he has bred dogs just to keep the lines alive.  Anyway he ask me Jim what is your biggest regret with the dogs u had back then.

I thought about it all that nite really and called him back the next day.  He said well what is it?  LoL and I said I wish I had outcrossed my pure family dogs more if I had it is no telling what could have been made.  It was already good but boy if I would not been so hard headed and had tunnel vision it's just no feeli,g what would have happened.  Over the years some of those family dogs got out and men crossed them with like Redboy dogs , Hoote,s Pistol dogs, Alligator dogs and so on.  The results a ton of great dogs that can be backed up with history.  Gr Ch Hannah, Ch Brueax, GR Ch Katrina, Ch Sugar, Ch Causine, Ch Bandit, Balls to the wall Amy and the list goes on and on.

And this was just a few crossed that were done old old time family dogs.

i have a 300 acre wooded pasture to try dogs  in ... i used to keep bout 40 dogs all the time .....i have access to thousands  of acres  to hunt  ....  so i have the resources  to develop a line  of  dogs ..... the best dogs  you ever own may come  from the side  of the  road and  look like a  pure  mutt .....but a  real good line  of dogs  sure  makes  life  easy ....I'm gonna  let ya'll have it  I've  done  said  enuf .... thanks  i love  talking dogs .....

Mr. Parker the proof is in the pudding and you sure have produced a lot of really good dogs, and one of the best lines around so nuff said. I really appreciate all of the good info you have added to this thread. Thank you sir!

Mr Parker....If Am not mistaken a buddy of mine down south Mike bred a Parker gyp to a male from my dogs and got some real real nice dogs. 

I've seen and hunted with and heard of even more folks that used a Parker dog as a cross and had good results.

I chalk it up to a person that stuck to their guns and developed that inbred/linebred-breed/line of dogs that were bred for consistency if working traits and geno/phenotype culled and sorted for generations of the dogs.

...as eluded to earlier. When one crosses a dog, one should pick a line bred dog with traits that compliment or add something to what they may be lacking. That is the only way to stack the deck on an outcross. Even though and individual dog may be exemplary if its scatter bred, or of unknown origin, there is absolutely no way of knowing what it will throw or the consistency it will throw it.

....it's a shot in the dark that will fail more times than not. I've seen it...it can be a heartbreaker, a madding  futile dissapointment, and extremw waste of time for the person owning such a superstar  of a dog with unknown or scattered origin of a dog trying to copy and set traits and could not even be possible or take longer than the resources of life of that person.

Sure folks can sometimes put two good dogs of dif origin together and get decent dogs. That ain't really so hard looking at things from a consistent outcrossing hybrid vigor type thing but when it comes to consistantly breeding on the cross is where rubber meets the road.

Haven't game dog folks for generations hung peds as line bred on battle/outcross dogs and they be world beaters but were useless for breeding and kept formula hidden? Seems like I've heard that before...lol

The real gold is folks that breed a line or breed tight and honestly and other folks can use those known factors to try and improve or reinvigorate there tight dogs Or vise versa.

I know this is like common knowledge to most but just tryn to give a shout out to those that been and are willing to stick such a thing thru...

Guess moral of the story is dont piss in the wind if ya got nuff room to turn on around.... This coming from a guy whose shoes and pants legs always wet

I second that. Happy to have you here!

As important as the choices we make in our breeding is the attitude we approach other breeders with.  I have respect for others but I have been disappointed in NEARLY almost experience I have had with other breeders and their dogs after hearing all their self proclaimed greatness.  In short, I am impressed or believe what I see ONLY!

True that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

there are some that talk a good game except that their philosophy has changed a few times since I have read their posts on this site lol...just something to think about...

yes it is important to try and reproduce one dog and then down the road another...I changed my males 3 times and and then chose a male to be the hub...but I turned the females over as soon as they were proven to purify the bloodline for consistency...and then slowed the turnover rate once I was happy with it...and that was to keep from running into that inbreeding depression or tired blood as it was called back then...color was never a priority as long as there wasn't much white...and performance and correct conformation goes hand in hand...

picking and outcross is very important as well...yes...what I have now is 3 generations of dogs that are  all males and even though they are all related, grandfather, sons, grandsons I consider them scatterbred because the dams are all different, even though the females were linebred/inbred...I am not in it to develop a new line but I will slowly move in the right direction...I have a pup that might be the hub when I do decide to breed to a female...I was thinking of some old time mt curs out of basically the same style of dogs I kept in the past out of Ohio...

but...I am also thinking Larry Parkers line of linebred/inbred dogs for several reasons...the pups I have now tend to look like his dogs and I do like that color...most parkers are slick coated and his tend to be silent...silent dogs are not a must for me...I prefer a dog that opens 3 or 4 times on a track when they locate to pull the other dogs in and then go silent...

some will say I am being disrespectful to the owner of the line for diluting his line...but I do not see it that way...

there is more to it than just breeding 2 good to great dogs even if related...choosing the very best puppies from that cross is more important that the cross if we want to maintain or improve on each generation...

another thing...a breeder can get results in 10 years as another can get the same results in 30 years...some can take a line and ruin it and others can take it to the next level...

I may be wrong, but your first sentence seems to be a thinly veiled dig at me, Rueben? I got thick skin...say what u mean...

My last post pretty much made clear my predicament and the precafist which which I stood before I lept. But not the first leap I made with dogs either btw.

I've got a plan and crossed dogs from consistant lines  that have been line bred with a goal are included with a vision of one day making something out of it. But as with anything, yours included, it's a gamble. ....one just don't know til he tries.
 
Just like you, I got a plan. Guess we all TALK a pretty good game sometimes, must be human nature. But if you were referring to me, my philosophy hasn't changed one iota. I know there is an easier row ta hoe... But that just ain't as fun to me nor does it light any fire.

I may be remembering things wrong but I thought I read you write about breeding to a Parker once before on the past? Maybe not, If I'm wrong I stand corrected...

So a person can't give props to folks that produced something with a vision and stuck to it and note how valuable it is and that it is invaluable to others like myself even to I may choose to do like you and try and create a dif vision based on what we see without bring a hypocrite? ....pretty hypocritical of you there sir.

You have been a pretty open book as I have.

As you mix and match and evaluate, albeit longer than me, you still say you consider it scatter bred, which sir it is... And are 'slowly moving in the right direction'.....don't we all hope to be...you and me both as well as everyone that sticks two dif breeds together? I would hope so.

All I'm doing is saying folks out there in the bulldog, cur, hound and any other breed game that have already accomplished this is noteable and a greàt service to folks like me....and you

I actually thought Reuben might have been "diggin" on me with that first line.  Maybe he should just tell us who he think is "talks a good game?"

As far as Larry Parkers line being diluted if you use it for an outcross goes, there's ONE sure fire way for Larry to keep stuff like that from happening.   Now I personally don't know how hard it is to obtain Larry's bloodline (and truthfully don't care) but if any man wants to preserve his hard work he can simply keep it and not share it.   It's been my experience that most like money more than they do their dogs.

Ain't that the truth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd like to hear about these three gens of males makeup. From what I have gleaned its a mt bred to a pit then bred to a plott and now considering being bred to a Parker. I think I've seen you write of another cross or two that didn't pan out? Is this correct? If so it is scattered and doesn't seem to be set since the search is still on..the preverbial can kicked down the road. You speak as of the hard work has been done and there is only a tweak here and there to do? I'd like to here it more in depth about all three of these males gens and breeding and if I'm wrong or out of bounds I'd be first to admit it.

Me I got pups from three litters all whelped by same dam of three dif breeds, AB, catahoula, and pitbull, all strait catch dogs that I'm tryn scrap something out of. That's the hot mess I got...

Prob waste if time, but I ain't got nuthin funner or better ta do with my dogs or time with dogs lol

Easyier for me anyway cause I ain't tryn breed strike dogs or finder holders or nuthin fancy. Just good wind fast strait catch dogs lol. Guess I drew easy straw with my vision....I'm kinda one dimension able

the first cross is a leggy pitbull and redbone cross that I only heard was a good redbone and the pit was tall and leggy and good RCD...the tight bred mt cur was tight kemmer out of some good dogs out of Louisiana and one of those pups I bred to a pure bred plott out of Wisconsin bred mainly for bear and hog...according to the owner she is a solid hog dog that relayed off from caught hogs...she is out of two of the best plotts the owner had so the pups I have are out of those crosses...the next step is  probably the biggest step to take in breeding in the right direction...

I have culled many a pup and dog since I got back to the dogs...good dogs are hard to find...but it is the best way when wanting to keep a yard full of good dogs...at my age I have to be conservative while making my moves...

I don't understand how next step 'is prob biggest step in breeding' when as of now you got a crossed up jumble...seems like doubling down or tightening up would be biggest next step to me....

I think we have all culled plenty a dog and pup and spent a pretty penny doing so...

Comes a time if your gonna breed dogs seems like ya gotta try n make some chicken salad if ya catch my drift

As far as Larry's dogs go, I've hunted with, been around, and have good friends or past acquaintances  that hunted with other Parker's I have not seen. I have personally seen and hunted and know folks that have seen and hunted with outstanding Parker dogs. I have also seen personally some pure I didn't like so much. Bout like anything I guess....hard ta bat 100% no matter what some may say
 
I have also seen some excellent Parker crosses out of other line bred families and even scattered dogs.

That there even further exemplifies to me the value of a tight bred line of dogs than the original stock if that makes sense...

X3

because it will be the first step in linebreeding/inbreeding...the female I choose will hopefully produce a good female pup that will be bred back to the sire if he keeps progressing as he has...these are long term goals...

Sure are  some sensitive folks in this thread  ;D

Not being ugly but what do you gain from pit x redbone = cross a  then mnt cur x plott = cross b then the two together make cross c then you plan to breed back to the sire. Not sure if I got your method exactly right. ? For you I know pit was for grit red bone size and nose mnt cur probly for hunt and durability plott to ad back nose size and bottom   Wouldn't it be faster to go to one pure breed that has all of those and tweeking a bit to your like or do you just like long projects. Like I said not being ugly just trying to understand your methods of thinking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Peel if you haven't figured it out by now I'll just tell you.  You see Reuben here thinks this breeding deal is just like mixing paint.  You know yellow X blue = green.  Simple as that.

Lmbo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You make a good point with your statement about getting purebred dogs that were already close to where you want. Now I don't know or pretend to know exactly what Reuben is looking for, and this is not directed at him but more as a general example but if you don't mind an open dog it seems to me like going out and getting some real rough plotts would be your faster path. I mean there are some real good rough plott lines out there already with most of the work already done for you. You got some really good old school Weems blood a lot of that tends to be rough depending on who you get it from, then you got Mike and Cajun Plotts who are definitely on the rough side and I have never heard anything but good things about his dogs and they have hunted world wide on all kind of game. Those are just some examples but I would go find a couple of sources where you have seen their dogs hunt and get you a few from each. Then you can selectively breed from there.

Just thinking out loud.

Most of the time guys add pit to the dogs are becuz they lack heart drive and grit any one that knows dogs can say that's what a pit gives you. If you add hound says you might be looking to add nose and bottom. Breeding these two types of dogs together are counter predictive to me you will have to have tons of litters from the exact pair to even start to comprehend what your making and probly cull 90 %. This work has already be done that's why there are so many breeds and lines in those breeds. But good luck on your adventures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes these are good points...I did try to get a cajun plott gyp or older female but none were available...Mike did offer to breed to one of my females but I did not have anything worthwhile...besides,I did not want full blooded plotts just wanted to breed to what I already have...

Like I already said earlier...I love the old style hard hunting, winding, trailing, cutting and slashing and finding game quick style of mt cur...but nowadays those are hard to find...so mixing plott with what I have will get me closer to what I want...

when it comes to breeding dogs I have spent many an hour and day deciding what to do and even months...so how to go about doing it is fairly simple to me...I make some sound comments and no one comments on them...but say something a little off and I get comments...makes me wonder if that is why we have so many culls out there...

actually, I was trying to locate some good dogs of what I liked and culled quite a few...even culled a top pedigreed pup out of some trail blazers...and as I was keeping some better dogs I wound up with these and I am happy with them...not the best but good enough...the plott gyp brought a lot to the table...so did the Kemmer gyp...so because I found myself here it is easy enough to go forward provided I get a female I want...

With the right female I should get quite a few good pups but all I will need is 2 or so from that litter by time I do the culling...culling does not mean the pup or pups won't work out...it just means not in my yard...

I like the idea of tweaking, changing and creating...and once there stay on track for the duration...

You just described a fl cur lol. I get what your saying just seems like the long way around 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So this is breeding 'BETTER' dogs 101...

Lets get it all lined out from the person that started the thread...

You started with a...

Not just two dif lines but totally dif breeds a bulldog and a hound. The hound you never saw hunt or hunted with any of its family/line...only heard.

Then you bred to a...
A then again totally dif breed from a hound or a bulldog and that was bred tight. So I'm sure those traits probably f-1 overrode the other scattered bred dog since it had genetic propensity locked in thru line breeding. But it's traits were also washed out a bit from outcrossing it to a scattered dog from to totally dif breeds with no commonality leaving that offspring not very useful at locking down any consistant traits esp since that wasnt then tightened on and culled to even see results as far as breeding wise.

Then you bred to a...
Back, now, with a scattered dog bred to a, I assume tighter family of yer another hound of a totally dif breed. No wonder the pups all look like plotts(going on recollection here).
Of course the propensity once again overrode the now even more scattered and watered down nature of the dog you bred it to. But still yet again washed any breeding wealth plott had to offer beyond a splash of vigor of basically a bow F-1 cross to a plott. ....again at that point the only Wat to know would breed one back to either of its parents or back crossed to a relative of either the redbone, the pit or the kemmer you used then bred that together to check any  real  progress.

....and most recently in this thread you talk of using a Parker now. Another tight line of yer a dif breed as your final pc of the puzzle. Before you start to tighten...?

I guess my conclusion is same as last two crosses to tight dogs you made. Just goin along watering everything to a level that trait are washed away before you do the work of any tweaking per say.

As ocenee remarked....I just don't think it's like mixing paint and breeds ain't painting by numbers...

You may want to add a little energy to a tight family by say, just for example trying a birddog, or a little grit by adding a pit. But then it would seem the cross would then have to be doubled back to see any real conclusion.

Then you wanna type from your perch up high in a superior tone
....and right after type

Sound ta me like you have been and are freely admitting here to the one of the reasons so many culls are  'out there' and saying you will do it again. If I produce on that won't catch I want it permanently takin care of...for good. And I only give dogs away btw.

Seems you would have been lot better of crossing that tight kemmer to a Parker or one those plotts and bred on that in the first place and tweaked from there. I just don't get the logic dude...

....but you do you, and good luck

The book "Art of Breeding better dogs" says once an outcross is made it should be made to a tight family of dogs exhibiting the needed traits.  That offspring needs to go back to the original line you are trying to influence and it's that cross (2 generation) that one can see truly how the outcross effected the line.   I'm no breeder but I am smart enough to see going 3-5 different directions at one time will likely find you with VERY inconsistent results for several generations.  And further more, I would be ashamed if I started talking "breeding better dogs" and told how I bred to that many "hear-say" dogs and very few I had actually proved myself.  As far as the trading culls around because they may suit others goes, that's about all I needed to hear to stop taking Ol' Reuben seriously.  Good luck guys

your are right about most of what you said... :)

the grandsire is 1/2 pit 1/2 redbone...which this makes my pups 1/8 of each which is not much...the 4 pups I have are almost identical...and I can't say I have hunted them as I would like but am looking hard...the other brother I did not keep because his coat was a little longer than I like is striking baying hogs...I knew I was going to get better than what I have culled...and will get as good on the next cross...

I saw the grandsire and 4 of his brothers and they all made some sort of hog dog whether it was very catchy or fair amount of hunt...

the next generation will dilute the redbone and pit even more...I like where I am at at this time...I am not going to spend a bunch of money breeding for high percentages of quality dogs and puppies as I once did...but I want to move in that direction...

I could go and get me a another pocohontas plott but and really tighten up quite a bit faster but not interested in that...

of course there will be a higher percentage of culls in the beginning but I am ok with that...

and I am confident that I will have good dogs from this point forward...it just took me quite a few years to get to this point...

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once upon a time it was the only way according  to most old time breeders...times have changed and we now know there is a better way...

This time I am coming from a different angle but should get the same results...

There is a good little old article written by Tom Stodghill  (the owner of the ARF and the first one to register the old catahoulas). It's about clockwise breeding and using a hub sir. Some even think that McDuffie may have used this info and breeding guidelines for the leopards.  If y'all want it posted then I'll dig it up this weekend.

this thread has been some good reading for me.

mike

I guess I could be wrong but I think the formula is centuries and centuries old...unless the old timers you speak of we're taming wolves. ....but then again it's was still the same formula...I guess I was your huckleberry in that one. ....you got me lol

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/16e8cdd0f512fac167877d693346f2aa.jpg) (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/627745e47dfeb8b9f91d961e8c877f21.jpg) (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/7fee0f06d79943326d83ffa333a669ee.jpg) (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/8c43af487fda9b3f71c01196639edb6c.jpg) (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/0c6f942fda2efb8f4f50d5485120b782.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/f986abffeb44e4b2868c1d1f770745f3.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trying to read that, it's very smashed together and I guess I can't wrap my head around the simplicity of the madness that is breeding dogs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's just line breeding on capt shep to me.

That's not throwing bunch of breeds together without doubling up in the second gen the way I glanced thru it....

But it was just a glance.
 
Guess it could be 8 dogs or three dogs like Parker's but it still revolves around breeding and culling a line in the second gen.

Bout like how dog were domesticated from wolves and every variant of dog came to be. Jmo

Line breeding is line breeding and still has factors that may mask some of ol capt shep's, genetic wesknesses. In the shirt term depending on the amount and variance of females used. For tge sake of argument 8 in that example versus 3 in the Parker line. But inbreeding is the tell tale and a dif animal. Everything inbred will hit a wall eventually. That just would seem to depend on the original stock

I'd like to define some things in this thread.

Most of you stock guys and I'm sure alot of dog guys already know....

First cousins and farther removed (I.e. second third and so fourth) is line breeding.

Mother/son , father/daughter, also defined as line breeding. And a widely recognized tool utilized in domestic stock and performance bred animals.of course this all gets tighter as the line goes on.

Full brother/full sister is inbreeding. This is were things get risky. Full brother/full sister out if full brother/full sister is even more so and so on
 
All this is measured in coi % bit the animals tell you the story not the chart.

Well done Judge.  Your a very patient and good teacher ;)
   You have a rare style that breaths life back into patience.

my theory on why it was a no no back in the old days and there were many people that felt the same way about inbreeding through the 1970's through the 1990's and I suspect even now...

there will eventually come a time where there will not be a diversified gene pool too much of the same...diversity is said to have a better immune system...the dogs will have better reproductive success among many other things...

one other theory of mine is that quite a bit of the defects must come from recessive genes because if it is passed from one parent and not the other then the trait will not be displayed and won't affect the pup...

but once we start breeding close the possibility of that pup passing on this trait goes up and when bred to a relative that has that recessive as well and now that negative trait is passed on...

In my mind issues like the above example is why the average breeder back before forums/computers stayed clear from breeding this way...

because I am not a breeding expert I also believe I have to pick the very best pup for breeding out of a litter...testing for natural ability in as many ways as I can...even the smallest of details matter...the best defense is a good offense...

Slim9797...I appreciate your post and write-up you pasted...

Oconee talked about reproducing one dog and that dog to me is the Hub which in reality is exactly the same...

some folks will argue the female is the most important...I agree as well on account she is the one carrying the for 2 months and feeding them etc...I believe what we do with her before breeding and during the gestation period to be an important part in having better dogs not to mention everything else it took for her to earn her spot as a breeder...

but if we make her the hub then we will only have eight or so litters to select from in her lifetime and if we keep it ethical it will only be one litter per year...of course we can keep her around for extra litters from her if we feel we are at a good point in a breeding program...

but on the other had working on reproducing a stud dog gives us more flexibility and that is why I prefer the male to do so...he can be bred as many times as needed to get where one needs or wants to be...

I labeled that article "rubbage" we he said to start with 8 "unrelated females."   That was all I needed to read.

Reuben I actually lost sleep last night trying to make sense of your plan.  I'm not picking, I'm actually trying to figure it out.  From what I can tell you are planning on eventually line breeding on a dog you have not produced yet?  From what I read it appears you have decided upon a 3 way cross that you assume will produce the dog of your dreams and you plan to move forward from there?

Now don't think I'm picking, I'm just asking but if that is the plan are you trying to tell us there is NO perfect breed of dog for your style of hog hunting?  I have no problem with crossbreeding breeds but I'm of the opinion there is breeds we don't need to crossbreed and only need to be sculpted to our personal liking by seeking out the specimens from that particular breed.  I am 100% believer that cross breeding several breeds is only an attempt to "shortcut" the process of seeking out and using the VERY BEST from the breed that suits us.  I challenge anyone to name any often used breed and tell me what that breed lacks because I will guarantee there are many strains of each breed and I bet money you can find dogs WITHIN that breed that have what you think the breed is lacking.  Example:  if you think BMC''s don't have enough bottom then seek out the lines that have bottom.  If you don't think Catahoulas range out enough then find the strain that does.   I started out wanting Plotts that can mortally fly on track and I am getting close with every generation but I damn sure ain't fixing to add greyhound or some wild a-- crap like that to shortcut the process and set myself back.  The hardest part of getting a particular breed to where you want it is getting lucky enough to find that SPECIAL specimen from a line that consistently exudes you style and staying with that blood and improving through your own breeding.

 In short, hard hunting, culling, and keeping the family together is the ONLY way to do it IMO!  AND THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS!!!!

I guess that all depends on who you talk to. Some breeders consider inbreeding any immediate family member so that would include your mother x son crosses and your father x daughter crosses as well. Scientifically speaking linebreeding is inbreeding, but most people classify close inbreeding as inbreeding and loose inbreeding as line breeding. So its just opinion anyways. But I have heard it the way you state it as well. Two different ways to classify it, just thought I would bring that up since this has been a good thread with tons of info and different ideas.

Wish they had a diagram of that with the article

WHAT ABOUT ABOUT HALF SISTER WITH HALF BROTHER CROSS  ? I HAVE TAKEN ONE FEMALE AND BREED TO TWO MALE DOGS AND GOT TO THIS POINT. I DIDNT SEE THIS CROSS BROUGHT UP UNLESS I MISSED IT.

Breeding dogs ain't rocket science. It's common sense. The ignorant people show their ignorance by not listening because they think they know everything.

buddylee they may throw me off this sight but I definitely won't hold any shots if I think someone is "igonart."   So go ahead and reveal the ones we should not pay attention to.  Or better yet contribute to our conversation "positively" instead of running people down!

Half siblings like parent/offspring is considered line breeding and these two methods are the the most employed and considered the best way to try and recreate an animal.

But rednose, I agree with you 100%, breeding related animals is a a form of inbreeding period. Some just tighter than others. But if done long and strong enough the end result is the same. An inbred dog.

The purpose of line/inbreeding is to recreate something worth while. Yes recessive genes will pop up as hopefully in some good perceived traits we look for will in individual animals as well.

It tells you what genetic problems you are facing and of course you cull those and are aware when outcrossing to choose another line bred tight known to not throw this. And you breed on the good offspring of course.

There is always a wall to hit tho...the point is to hit it so you can tweak it for an even better result by outcrossing judiciously.
 
Here is a thread from half year back that somewhat reverses the points that both Reuben and I make somewhat from this thread.

In this thread Reuben exhaults line breeding somewhat and I come off to sort of put it down....guess we are both hypocrites but I still defend what I wrote as not being that much dif from this thread. I think one breeding then well thought out outcrosses is the true way to breed domestic animals as has been the way since domestication.

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=92298.0 (http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=92298.0)

I would also add, there were quite a few working breeds developed and to varying degrees refined In the period of the 1960's-70's using the same methods of breeding that are centuries old as in every other time period. ....so I just don't know what old timers we are speaking of and please cite examples of where their dogs are today? Are they still just best to best, whatever good dog comes along crosses?

Kyle Omstott says in his book there is NEVER a need to outcross and the biggest mistake made is by breeders hitting a bad cross and thinking they need an outcross and reversing 20 years of breeding.  This is based on a line that suits the breeder in every way.  He goes on to say out crosses are crucial in picking up needed traits but should be made with well established lines that exude the needed trait and by no means with a scatter bred super dog that has the trait and loads of unknown traits to go along with him.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last half of that post ocenee.

In my previous post two back it reads' one breeding' that is supposed to read ' line breeding' auto correct ganked me

Oconee, you need a joint. I listen to everyone and pick and choose the ideas I wanna try. I wasn't referring to anyone at all but it's funny u think I was referring to u.

This thread is breeding better dogs 101 and breeding scatterbred mutts is not how you do it.Especially if consistency is what your after.Tons of valuable info on this thread.

semmes...my beliefs and breeding philosophies were set before I ever came onto this forum or any forum and they have not changed...

I went this route not by choice but because it was available to me after culling many times...as a young man once I decided to breed my own line I developed a plan and I followed a system and stuck with it...the dog I wanted to reproduce was the sire, grandsire, great grandsire and  great uncle etc to some of the pups...and yes I do believe in outcrossing to the right dog at some point and I also believe that if it nicks to keep one of those pups and breed that pup back in to just add a shot of new blood...and I feel like I have to explain myself that it needs to be a dog that brings improvement to the line or to at least maintain and that dog needs to be of a good line of dogs that resembles what we have...I for sure do not ever want to flood the line with that outside blood that took time to create...it would be a big step backwards...the more we are in to it the more it needs to be guarded...my personal opinions/theories...

what I have done this time is no secret and I have said more than a few times that I was taking my time and only wanted some good dogs...I also said that I would breed in the right direction and I am close to the point where I might be there when I am ready to take the next step...I have an eye on one of my pups at this time who is half plott, 1/4 kemmer and I owned that kemmer and have her papers filed away just in case if I want to see them, also 1/8th redbone and 1/8 pitbull and yes you are right...I only went by what I was told by a long time hog dog acquaintance...everything in this breeding is hunt and nose except for the pitbull who was also a RCD...

as I already said I am at a point where if and when I decide to breed pups again I will have to be very choosy and that is why I said it was a major point or place to be...because if it works out I will breed a daughter right back to the sire and have pups to supply my needs...that is my plan...he will be the hub...

but on linebreeding...

linebreeding can be most anything...we can have the best bred and proven plott and we can breed him to an old english sheepdog and to a chow and then get the best of the pups and breed them back to the plott...no one in their right mind would do that...so when we speak of linebreeding we take for granted that we are discussing dogs of the right type and breed...

or it can be the same plott bred to his daughter and his 1/2 sister of the same caliber of dogs...or it can be something else...

Oconee...I can not comment on the reasoning behind what I do when it comes to dogs...

here is the thing...breeding discussions is kind of like discussing politics...it can get folks a little riled up... :)

Maybe I miss read but I don't see how anybody could say you should never need a outcross.

Also if you go far enuff bad in any dogs ped you will see a lot of dogs that where bred that where not any kin at all.  That is how they all started out to begin with .  As year have went on in my OPINION people have become obessesed with all this inbreeding, linebreeding and a ton have no ideal what they are doing.  I would also venture to say I bet just as many family's of dogs have been hurt are ruined by this .  If a mans family of dogs are so great then its his job to find the right click to go with it and know what to do when he does.  Did you ever think if mutipal crosses don't work with your line  maybe you get average dogs at best then maybe it aint the cross that is bad , maybe  your family aint as strong as you think.

Hummmmmm

With these hunting dogs what is the number one thing?  Its got to be hunt!  If a dog don't hunt you aint got trap.  Just like a bulldog if you aint got gamemess you aint got chit. So the number one thin on bulldogs is gamness.

You can inbreed a line of hunting dogs till their eyeballs fall out.  You want to see how strong your line is do this.  You gonna start to loose all the bells and whistles first but the same amount of hunt should still be there and if your line is strong it should even increase .  If you do this and if your hunt starts to fade fast are first your in trouble.  If after a moderate amount heavy inbreeding are line breeding your hunt is still there and increasing your family is strong even tho they are looking more and more bells and whistles along the way.  If you get them extremely line and inbred and your hunt is there buddy then you know your family is a rock and gonna be around a long long time.

This is how a real family should be!  Then as you go you add extra bells and whistles by outcrossing to great no kin families like yours.  After the cross you go back to breeding back into your family and probably for many years before you need to do it again.

This is the test of a family.

This is how we tested our bulldog families if the gamness did not stay par to our standards as it was when we started are increase as we tightened.  It was down the road.

Same as hunting dogs they loose their hunt after very little to average inbreeding .  My advise is find you another family because of you in it to win it you gonna loose and be very disappointed down the road that is if your hearts in it!!!!

Also those peds, how many are 100% accurate. Dont know about hog dogs but bulldogs, I guarantee there are outcrosses in most dogs peds that none of us will ever know about. I'm all for linebreeding cousins to cousins nieces to uncles and I even like some inbreeding like parent sibling breedings. But the one thing I will try and not be is KENNEL BLIND!

If you look into performance animals such as back in the day with bulldogs or even game cocks most of the best actual performance animals were crosses. Now I am not saying that linebreeding isn't a good thing, I would be a hypocrite if I did because most of the dogs I have now are extremely line bred but just look; in game cocks the majority of birds that used to be used in derbies were crosses, hence the term battle cross. Bulldogs same thing, and what funny is if you are a bulldog history buff most of the top ROM dogs of the last 50 years were crosses too (Mayday, Jeep, Buck, Yellow) now go and think about that. How come most of the best dogs were not super tight "pure" family bred dogs??? Don't get this confused I am not saying there aren't good family bred dogs but I am just trying to make a point about being scared to outcross because it won't produce results. Facts would say otherwise.

I still agree with a lot of folks on here if you want consistency linebreeding is the way to go for sure, but like was said earlier I won't be afraid to try something if I think it will add.

Disclaimer these are only my observations and not saying anyone else is wrong.

I can see what Ruben is trying to do.  He is trying to start a line from scratch and to do that he is looking a different dogs and breeds to start to build what he wants to make a family out of!   It takes a long long time but that's Rubens deal not a thing wrong with it.

Hell these hog dogs I got over here I really just got serious in breeding them about 10-12 years ago.  Am just now starting to scratch the surface off them.  Hell am just put-putting.  I will never get them to the quality of the bulldogs I bred and had for nearly 30 yrs.  Why? Am 55 years old by the time I get 65 they might be getting close and I'll be burnt out and wore out.

Moral is aint nothing happening over nite when breeding a family of dogs.

I agree...

hybrid vigor can be a good thing...too much inbreeding can actually hurt...

I do believe that too much inbreeding can and will work against us at some point as too much outcrossing will as well...we just need to gravitate towards a good place...

having said all that...we talk quite a bit about how to breed better dogs but very little discussions on what to select and how to select in developing consistency and actually breeding better dogs as we move forward towards our goals...

TexasHogdogs...I feel ok with what I have now...and more than likely not the consistency I would like...but I am ok with it...but it will probably be better than what some folks are thinking...

 



I just think your one of these keyboard mouths that doesn't have anything positive to say and decided to run your trap.  Why don't you start contributing to our conversation instead stirring crap.  By the way, I have never done a drug in my life and I could care less if you were referring to me.  Take care

 



I don't think you do if you have what you need in a family of dogs.    I'm not suggesting you can start with a single male and few females but in a good sized family it would be ridiculous to breed out if you liked what you have.   Everyone needs to be looking to improve but it doesn't have to an outcross to strengthen the family if hard hunting, hard culling, and demanding breeding selection is taking place.

When the Plott Breed was excepted into the Registry there were 42 registered Plotts in the first registry, ALL belonging to a select group of men surrounding the Plott family members.   Would you like to go back and show me how they were not kin?     

There are countless strains and lines of Plotts across the Country nowadays but your theory would not hold up if you traced these dogs back "far enough."    They were all kin, for sure.

You show me and the rest of us u are the expert.

If u believe everything u read in a book u are sadly decived. It don't make a chit who wrote it just because they wrote it and even may say it don't make it true.  If u didn't see it you are getting second hand info and on down the line.  Lmao I use to believe a lotta chit I read and was told also by what is known as great men and even tried to copy it.  Wasted about ten years till I finally figured out the truth by hands on experince.

We'll i'm no expert but I really don't have to show anyone.  It's obvious there are more dogs now than in the beginning so it's obtuse to say the father you trace dogs back they will prove to be unrelated the further back you go.  So I guess if we traced mankind back to Adam and Eve you you would argue the same about mankind.  The fact that the original Plotts breed registry was so small is all the proof I need and in fact there wereally only 42 to begin with but actually less than that were actually used in the breed moving forward.  I'm not being a smarta-z, i'm just being "right."   So being a smarta-z back is only making you look sillier!  Take care

Adam &  Eve......I guess am kin to them .  I wonder I guess he would be my  10 Trillion'ent Grand Paw.  I wonder if we look alike are how much of his gene pool I threw in my kids.  Come on man.  An done.  To each his own.  Good luck.

Oconee, I don't raise hog dogs but I do raise  plenty of other creatures. Genetics have always intrigued me and I love to study the subject and ask questions and listen to anyone..... This is a great topic and I believe that you have contributed some helpful information but man if you self proclaim to be no expert quite acting like you are. There are thousands of species that have been bred many ways to come up with their respective breeds. Composites, line bred, in breed, best to to best, worst to worst and so on. If we as breeders want to truly breed better animals we need to hold some of our pride back when talking to others about their method of breeding lest we become blinded by what's in our own yard/pasture.  If we take our time to analyze each of the different formulas for breeding animals and follow the method that makes sense to us then add to or detract from it from other formulas we may just be able to have a hand in producing some fine animals, but with this whole your way or the highway attitude some guys will quit posting their information and experience because they don't wanna throw pearls before swine

Also if you go far enuff bad in any dogs ped you will see a lot of dogs that where bred that where not any kin at all.





This is your statement, not mine.    All I'm saying is its simply not true and have brought up a couple points supporting my stance.  This is how a debate works.   If you can't take ithe then don't make outlandish comments you can't support.

It's all the same gene pool and when you go back far enough (such as you suggested) you will have fewer members making up the species (dogs, humans, cats, or any animal) closers kin.  This is exactly the opposite of what you say.  In short,  YOU ARE WRONG!!!

Jessie James on my place it is "my way or the highway."   And as far as the "pearls in front of swine" comment goes, if my opinion makes someone reluctant to post then that my friend is a mental toughness issue, which is what is wrong with this society today.  Maybe anyone who feels turned away because of print on a message board should go to their "safeplace."

I would like to see the list of great dogs you have bred.  You youself.  I would also like to see this to back up your talk.  I can produce mine with history to back it up.  I can provide proof of mine beyond a shadow of a doubt if need be.  Show us some proof to back yourself and your theory up.  Show some dogs your breeding produced threw out history.   

He's the best I can do for you.  Come to my house, at your convenience and stroll thru my yard and pick you out a dog and we'll go hunting.  Then you can tell how the hunt went on this site.  Now if you don't show, you are a COWARD!

You answered the question perfectly!  Thanks

Look kid, I have no ideal what you wanting from me and truthfully don't care.    I offered to show the junk I have bred and that all I can do.  This disagreement started when you said all dogs traced back far enough will not be kin.   That is BS and I asked you to explain how a breed of 1000's evolved from 42 dogs and their ancestors are not kin.  You have yet to explain your statement and have only ran your mouth since.    Now I don't care if you every explain but at least shut up.   Now some will say dogs were added throughout the history and I'm by no means gullible enough to think they didn't but your statement said "traced back far enough" well you can't get any further back than the beginning of the breed and I can guarantee you them first dogs were kin.

Glad im not the only one thinkin this

Oconee, you telling someone to shut up is rather comical.

Your right!!    Shut up!!!   Ha ha ha ha ha

Johannes (later known as George) Plott arrived in America from what is now Germany in 1750. He was the son of a gamekeeper, and the five dogs he brought with him were bred to hunt wild boars in the forest. The dogs were probably a mix of Hanoverian Schweisshund and other breeds, but no one knows for sure exactly what they looked like.  The voyage from Germany to North America in 1750 was a long one, but Johannes Plott’s five dogs weathered it well.  Johannes’ brother Enoch (or Enos) wasn’t so lucky.  He died and was buried at sea. Alone in a foreign land, Johannes arrived in New Bern, North Carolina in 1750 with little more than his pack of dogs and a determination to make a better life.

Not much is known about George Plott’s early years in America; he moved frequently and took his dogs with him. By 1801, his son Henry lived in Haywood County, North Carolina on Plott Creek flanked by the towering mountains that would eventually be called the Plott Balsams. By the end of his life, Henry Plott owned 1,700 acres in western North Carolina and it was here that the Plott Hound became a distinct breed.

Painting of Plott family cabin by Willie Morgan. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Painting of Plott family cabin by Willie Morgan. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
From their first years in America, the Plott family bred their dogs for work. They needed a fearless and strong dog that was smart enough not to kill livestock. Henry’s grandson Montraville (1850-1924), used his Plott Hounds to hunt bears.  Bear dogs need both courage and stamina.  Montraville improved the breed by adding some cur to the mix and creating the “Leopard Plott,” a dog with a bluish-gray spotted coat. People soon traveled for miles to buy Montraville’s Plotts.

Montraville Plott.  Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Montraville Plott. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Montraville Plott’s two sons were both devoted dog breeders, but they had very different methods. John Plott was interested in keeping the breed pure, while Vaughn Plott (known as Von) felt that how the dogs hunted was more important than how they looked. The debate about keeping the Plott line pure or adding in other breeds continues to this day.

Von Plott was a big game guide who did much to popularize Plott Hounds. Von and his dogs led hundreds of visiting sportsmen on bear hunts throughout the mountains. As hunters returned home with stories about this North Carolina dog, the Plott Hound’s reputation grew. Von’s dogs were great trackers, but more importantly they were intelligent. They knew what to do on the hunt, were aggressive enough to stay with a bear, and smart enough not to get killed.

John Plott was quiet and reserved in comparison to his brother Von, but he too played a key role in keeping the breed alive. The Plott brothers were both fiercely dedicated to the perpetuation of the Plott breed though they had different methods and beliefs that are still debated to this day.

By the 1930s, many people outside the Plott family also owned Plott Hounds. Although Appalachian families had owned Plotts for generations, few of them thought seriously about breeding and maintaining the line until Gola Ferguson, Howe Taylor Crockett, and Isaiah Kidd entered the scene.

Gola Ferguson and his dog Jap.  Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Gola Ferguson and his dog Jap. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Gola Ferguson was raised in Bryson City, North Carolina and loved hunting. After attending what later became Western Carolina University, he worked as a farmer, sheriff, surveyor, and school principal. Gola obtained his first dogs from the Plott, Cable and Blevins families and his animals quickly became the dog of choice for many hunters. His two most famous dogs were Boss and Tige. When the United Kennel Club recognized the Plott Hound as a breed in 1946, 79 of 81 recognized dogs could be traced to Boss and Tige’s bloodlines.

Taylor Crockett got his first two dogs from Samuel Plott when he was just 16 years old. From this small beginning he developed a pack of “old-time” Plotts. His dogs were fierce on the hunt, but gentle with other animals and children. Crockett’s animals were famous for their tenacity and determination on the hunt.  Although Plotts had traditionally been used as bear dogs, Crockett was a fan of boar hunting. He trained his dogs to hunt boars, and also helped get the Russian boar recognized as a big game animal in North Carolina.

Isaiah Kidd was from West Virginia and he got his first Plotts from visiting North Carolina timber cutters. In the late 1920s, Kidd purchased dogs from Von and John Plott, Gola Ferguson, and others. Kidd spent the next forty years breeding Plott Hounds and was a pioneer in scientific dog breeding. He kept careful breeding records and developed his own strain of Plotts. His dogs were known for their gray, almost zebra-like brindle coats. Kidd was the first scientific breeder of Plott Hounds and his work helped shape the standards for the breed.

Despite the fact that Plotts came to America in 1750, it was a long time before they were recognized as an official breed. The United Kennel Club recognized Plotts in 1946, and since then there have been bitter disagreements about what a true Plott should look like. Arguments have raged about the dog’s origins, the amount of out breeding permitted, the proper color of the dog’s coat, and even the use of the word “hound” in the dog’s title!

Good Lord man.  Note the five dogs Johanna's brought over how they where bred.  None pure.  I am sure the Plott bro had hell perfecting the line .  its no telling what all went into it before they got it perfected and now known as the Plott Hounds.  There were several friends that crossed in trying to perfect their line.  A line don't start out pure it has to be built first.

Ol Oconee sure does have a way of bring out some good information. 
   TexasHogDogs, I've really enjoyed your replies and information.  Always a pleasure of mine reading what you share.
 

Thanks man,  am not trying to preach are act like I know much of nothing.  I hope folks don't see me as bad.  I just know where I been what I done , what I've learned from great dog breeders great friends and people threw the years.  One thing about it am not gonna lie are save some ones feeling you are either right are wrong no in between thats how I was taught.  If am wrong I be the first to admit it and shake your hand.  Same as it use to be I didn't get mad when someone out dogged me I wanted some of what he's got lol.  When I talk about inbreeding man we done it I saw first hand what happened no hear say no second third hand info we saw it and am talking TRIPLE inbred and more. Same goes for line breeding seen what it did loved what it did learned when its time to go out and when to go another time in all you got to do is listen to what your dogs are telling you not what u want to do that's where the mistake is made sometimes a line killer that take double the work to get it staighten back  out.   Same as full performace crosses some worked great some didn't  , learn from ur mistake. Each of these tools have purposes each are ment for different things just like one wrench won't fit all bolts.  This was years ago man.  Times have changed at least for me they have these dogs I got I will never be able to get to their peak level because I really don't have the patiences  I use to have in the bulldog game man it takes years and years.  Look at the Plott people look what they went threw its just unreal when you are fully dedicated and time are just way different now. 

Anyway good luck to all.

You can copy/paste all the articles you want and the fact of the matter is the father back you trace dogs the closer kin they will be.  This article is referring to a very small group of men and dogs.   There are thousands of men and dogs making up this breed now.  This is common sense that they dogs in the beginning would be closed related.   If you start with few and in the end yof have many the few had to be bred together as well as their offspring, thus making them kin.   That is the argument and you are wrong so get on Google and copy someone else's article you know nothing about to try and make yourself look smart.

Where's Barlow? This thread is right in his wheelhouse...

You must be one of those new and improved kind of stumps.  You know the new models. I'm gone have seen and heard enough.

No doubt!

If you are talking about closer kin in the framework of time and history, like Adam and Eve then yes, if all breeds of dogs came from a pair of wolves at one time, then in general as time goes on the population as a whole becomes less closely related as it fans out and gets farther from the original individuals, but most breeds of dogs were started with a few different breeds that were crossed to make a small group of closely related dogs and then the population of the breed expands from there. I have a couple books on the plott bros but have not read them yet, so I don't know about Plotts specifically but, if they didn't start with different breeds of dogs or with a group of scatter bred dogs then they didn't make their own breed, they just refined one or made their own strain. I know breeds like the Dogo, the Tosa Inu, Catahoula, etc were made from from unrelated breeds, sure they went back to the "Adam and eve" of dogs but they would still be considered unrelated just like i would be considered unrelated to you oconee. All the breeds I just mentioned started with breeds of totally unrelated dogs that were bred together to make a small group of closely related dogs that  as time goes on and the population of the breed grows, becomes less closely related. Even the Kemmer cur started from a small selected group of Mtn curs that would be considered less closely related, that were then bred to be more closely related and as the population grew, it became generally less closely related, and I would consider kemmers a strain of mountain cur, not a separate breed of dog. In theory to make a new breed you would have to start with a small group of animals less closely related, breed them to each other, making them more closely related, and then as the population grew and they spread out into different peoples hands and spread geographically they would become less closely related. I think the terms can make this concept confusing, because in general we are all as closely related as we are ever going to be, as time goes on each generation of humans becomes less closely related as we get farther from Adam and Eve but individuals or groups of people can become more closely related by interbreeding or inbreeding, hopefully there's not too much of that going on. I have always wondered if the royalty of the world, line bred themselves not just to create stronger ties but more robust and successful heirs to their kingdoms

That was excellent lief...

If we can create great Danes and weenie dogs to poodles and old English sheep dogs from wolves then there is a lot more to genes as to what is already known...not long ago the highly educated believed one thing on what created brindle and now there are other theories from the same folks...I would explain it but it is way over my head...

    Oconee, I seen that article as a tool to dispell some of the things you are saying about the origin of plotts.  Most of everything you have posted on this thread you try to back up with a book or two.  Then when THD copies and pasts an article that doesn't give with what your saying, you claim it's someone else's work and belittle him for it all the while you running back to a book you bought as your own proof.  What a hypocrite and poor looser.         You and Ruben are two of a kind.  Both of you by into what each other say.  I really have been waiting for you to see Ruben as most of us do

After this thread your actions totally differ from what you preach.  I think most things are over your head when it comes to dogs.     Then you want to defend your actions by sighting things that  do not fall in line with what you have preached before.  What a hypocrite. 

I don't think you understand where I am coming from...all I am saying is that there is so much to a gene pool we do not understand if we can  get so many different breeds from a wolve...just something to think about...

I understand exactly  what you say.   You just contradict yourself and don't put forth in real life what you claim to be on here.       Some people see and do things successful one way, others another, but you say one thing and do another then sight reasons that go back on what you claim to have stood for when asked why the two don't match.    Then you want to call me out for my integrity.  Lol that's awsome

You just love talkin chit dont you

I was starting to think it was only me who saw it...  ;)

The funny thing about these sites is how small of a world it actually is.  You see everytime I get into a debate on here I get countless PM's about the person I'm debating with.  When me and you (Black Sheep) went around a few months ago folks came out of the wood works to tell me about hunts with your junky "finder holders."   Now I can't place any value on hearsay but I will say it wasn't just a few folks that felt the need to tell me about you and your dogs, it was several!  Now here me and THD are going around and guess what..........    yep not to many impressed with him either.    I don't see why anyone would lie about past experiences with you or him but I figure were there is smoke there has to be a little flame.

Now having said that, tell us all how many folks that ACTUALLY hunted with me and my dogs have PM'ed you and ran me down?  No need to identify, just tell me how many.    

That's some funny stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oconee, your exactly the kinda guy I was referring to thats knows everything and doesn't listen. I honestly wish there were more folks like u. Be a lot more hogs for me to catch

Haaaaaaaaaaa Well my phone has rung off the wall itself imagine that.  Every body Says your all mouth and no ass.  You ain't done number 2 and most likely never will.  I ask you to put up what u have bred worth its salt and u come back with more mouth BS.  There and hole in the butt on every board and u tend to fit the bill.   You put up one Plott dog and I hope that ain't you squaring behind him be cause of it is I got dogs older than you.

By the love the shoes Lmao maybe you need to puttem on that old Plott dog so he can run as fast as you mouth.  

Y'all are turnin into some real internet warriors! Take a breath and let it go!

Jimmie there are very few on this site that HAVE ACTUALLY hunted with me and my dogs.   Now if any of them called you, I can GUARANTEE you they can't say I'm feeding junk.  Now tell me how many have actually hunted with me and can say I feed turds?   Just a number and don't lie!  How many big boy?    And yes that is me, stop making fun of my shoes they are in style.

Buddylee just because I speak my mind when I see BS posts is no reflection of the amount of hogs I leave behind me in the woods.   I do not think I know it all but when I see what I think is BS I will call a feller out.  

They not talking about your dogs ain't no body seen any they talking about your mouth.   Man you carry number 2 to the extreme where I come from that number 2 don't work . Am gonna leave it at this  I've said it a couple times already and should have let you just run your head. Joel is right its turned into a internet keyboard fight.  I live in Cameron Tx you get this way just ask anybody  where Iive they will point you in the right direction come by we will hash it out.

Well I can't deny I run my mouth.  Glad you cleared that up about my dogs for everyone.  By the way the folks that contacted me were DEFINITELY talking about your dogs.   So I guess now you gonna beat me up?  Ha ha ha.    You are a work of art.  Mental toughness is illusive around here.      Toughen up big boy, my words aren't gonna hurt you.

He's just a young cocky know it all. He'll figure it out one day.

I'm not riled up, just made a comment and it was more of a joke. End of the day I know some good scatterbred dogs and I got a line bred cow dog that ain't worth a damn. I'm just here to read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I own my part in the disentigration of this whole thread into what it became...

I let my panties get in a wad because I felt Reuben was running down what Larry Parker said at a point. I live in la. Know alot folks with Parker's, even yards of them, hunted with some and respect Larry for what he has done. I don't own a full Parker dog, and ive met larry and im pretty sure he dont need or want any body dpeaking for him. That was my bad. But I think of all the folks on this thread he has at least accomplished as much if not more than any other...

Looking back, even previous to the jousting back and fourth, it may or may not have been Reuben's intent from his comments.

But I just saw some inconsistencies in his comments from the past and felt a bit put off by the tone, warranted or not, and dove in.

I like a good debate, and once in im all in lol, and nothing better to talk than dogs as far as I'm concerned. Hell we all feed, doctor, hunt, breed, argue about and then watch these flea bags die one way or another. While they just sit in a kennel, on a chain, in the yard or on the couch oblivious to it all. As long as they get fed and worked and petted occasionally they are cool.

We can all have differences. We can all have our specific standards. We can all do what ever the heck we want with our property.

Ideas and philosophies change and have to as folks grow and learn. Everybody on this threads have evolved over time and experience. When called out to defend or explain the what and why, which is just human nature, as long as it is kept in context it's all good and healthy.

We all learn from each other's experience, hell me more than most i suppose, and how the old saying go those who don't learn from the mistakes of humankind are doomed to repeat them? Sumthin like that anyhow...

But lets not all take this too personal and run down each other to far and fir godsake talks bout each others chaps(kids)...

It's just bunch damn dogs in the end..

We are all on the same team and on the same side if the fight. Dog men and women. Hell we could prob all kill more hogs cheaper Sitn in a stand w night vision and a rifle like alot do but we don't think that is fun.

I don't wanna sound to preachy. I know I do...I'm as guilty as the next man for calling names on this board and others and takin number 2 to a personal level.
Again sumtimes human nature is a mutha.

I was texting with a good bud from this board today about this thread. This is a copy and paste of what I wrote....I stick by it.

.....sorry Mike, that paste had a f-bomb in it, didn't mean to break the rule of 'your' forum...

Thanks to a link rednose posted a while back I've spent a many a nights on this website, figured this would go good in this debate and hopefully get it back on track, I've enjoyed the majority of what's been posted thus far...


http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-myth-of-hybrid-vigor-in-dogsis-a-myth

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/using-inbreeding-to-manage-to-inbreeding

semmes...I was wondering why you were calling me out and now I see what you were thinking...  ??? All I said about Larry was that I remember when he first wrote that he was going to breed a line of dogs many years ago...maybe I said more than that but I don't think so...maybe I should of continued and said...he said it and made it happen...and I have heard and read good things about his dogs...and as I mentioned I am considering getting a top pup from him one day...

now if I said something else about Larry's dogs and it sounded negative please point it out...

Hey Goose, I didn't see either of those articles so thanks for posting. That second one seems to be explaining that method I was telling you about that one of my friends out here on the west coast does with his dogs to prolong having to outcross.

X2!!  I personally would rather shoot hogs. Keeps my good dogs from getting ripped up. I think hog dogging is interesting. that's why I'm here. I use bulldogs for protection moreso than hunting. But the basis for a good protection dog can be found in a hog dog: Good temperament, a hard bite and athleticism.

Well it was a kind of contextual, sequential thing that led me to react.

In page four of this thread Larry was typing in a couple posts  a bit about his program and thoughts on heavy line breeding, and culling and uniformity of color, type and how it fit in his mind that those traits also fit in with fixing type in the areas of drive he looked for as well. Whatever, I can't put words in his mouth.

But directly after that on the first post you made on page 5


You kinda seemed to to dig directly at line breeding, health, and 'all pups look alike' when Larry was the only one I read that made mention of a phenotype specification.

Then there was that unfinished, open ended last statement at that post which you directed at Parker and there was very little connotation to that sentence. Leading me to believe the post was directed at him as in when writing usually the first opening statement and the closing statement it is structurally important to tie together and finish a train of thought.

Maybe it wasn't the case, maybe in the only who saw it, maybe other members did as well?

But I thought it was passive/aggressive and mentioned so...

Then after few more pages you flipped back and fourth a few times in my eyes between the virtues and the detriments of line breeding kinda willy nilly  flipping sides and, I thought contradicting yourself....

I felt it was kinda odd and thought I'd go ahead and point it out is all...

Not to mention the fact that between the steps of the 4, to 5 breed (if you were to purchase a Parker to add, like you suggested) cross has been no line breeding or back breeding selection between the steps to even remotely refine it. Leaving the scheme, in my eyes totally so scattered with variables it would take quite a while to sort out...just kinda wierd approach

In all I've heard, read and seen over the years the second gen of a cross, line bred or tightened on in some way, of with there are many, would be way more telling than the initial hybrid/battle cross as far as breeding usefulness. And telling what is lacking if anything. Instead of directly from one cross to the next. Which is just scatter breeding, by definition, and adding variables to be sorted

Been an interesting thread.

In the end we all breed the way we want to breed. We breed the type of dog that we like to hunt, that benefits us, pleases us or even just something we just like looking at. Whether we have luck in line breeding and inbreeding or outcrossing.  In the end it's up to the individuals on the directions we take. 

We all have opinions on how to get to where we want to be. Respecting each other opinions and thoughts on how to get there as we go.  Learning a little here and there and teaching a little here and there.

I like the line and inbreeding part of dog breeding myself. Mainly to help control the good traits compared to the bad ones. Only outcrossing to a cousin when the line needs it. To tight and you'll loose size and sometimes stability in the litter and too loose we take the chance on a couple of generations of bad characteristics were we're back breeding to get away from it and get back to what we had.  Breeding like dogs to like dogs in a family can sure help you get a line that produces a consistent litters.  The hybrid vigor in a male in an outcross is sometimes lost after the 2nd and 3rd generations when not line breeding. Yes the hybrid can and does produce top quality pups it's just sometimes those pups wont produce the vigor of the original male.  Don't forget the females in this equation too. I believe a female is more important than the males sometimes. After all she caring and introducing 50% of pups genes.

mike





   

boy it sure is. I've talked to Brian about leopards and blue lacys a while back.  In fact I'm still looking into those yellow and leopard spotted lacys that Brian talked about. Mainly the leopard spotted ones. If anyone has seen one then please let me know.

I was just thinking back on the old bulldog days.  The ole time great breeders started out to build a line of dogs.  Most started with three four maybe five outstanding performace dogs that they loved.  The dogs most likely would be no kin.  The breeder would then start to make his breedings culling hard and at first would be crosses but as the years flew by the dogs would become one big family of dogs as he would take no outside dogs in.

Then as the dogs needed a cross he would take his newest generation of family dogs say 2 ..2 1/2 years old and proven and breed them to his oldest generation of dogs say 9/10 year old stud dogs and brood bitches.

This is what is called a back cross amoung family dogs.  What this does some of the time you will end up recreating a old dog that was the foundation of your line of dogs.  I have even seen with my own two eyes this bringing back what was the almost excate replica of a throwback dog of over 200 years back in the history of the bloodline.  I had it happen and we didn't even know what it was are where it come from.  As it was put it out on the net got calls from everywhere.

A dog breefer finally track it down in Europe and even sent me a hand painting from the 1700's as I open the package we like to fell out. There was the painting of a dig that looked identical to mine.  It ended up being traced back to the Blue Paul Fighting Dog of the early 1700's.


Ain't that something!!!!!!!  The dog was so heavily inbred this what the gene pool threw back.

Anyway a back family cross will give a man another Maybe 10 to 15 years if breeding his family line without a real cross.

Food for thought.

If a man starts to build his line on all kin inbred and heavy line bred dogs he will get not nearly as far.  So he damn well better like his dogs because I can gurentee you he will cross are loose his line.

As a matter of fact the man that traced all this down was the man that started Limey Kennelsbin Europe.  We became friends they came and stayed with me my wife and kids for two weeks.  He brought me a gift I never expected.  As I picked them up at the air port he said come with me he went over and picked up a dog create and said here he is yours.  LoL it was a solid black Limey Alligator dog the most line bred Limey Alligator dog in history other than his sister.  These Alligator dogs where bred down from the old famous Plummers Alligator dog here in the USA.  Pure Dibo Bred.  First Limey Alligator dog imported into the USA.

Two months later he flew back over here with a gyp she was in heat and bred her to my Ripper dog one of the best Nigerinio dogs to ever look threw a collar.  Till this day still has the cross.....Long long story lol

That's a cool story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What he said ^ thanks for sharing.

Barlow's an interesting guy and I miss having him around, although we still correspond from time to time.

I guarantee, you'll not find someone who has traveled the world and studied (by seeing...not by reading) dogs more than he has.  He isn't scared to hear about someone hunting and raising a good line of dogs and just pick up and move there for a while to see and get to know them.  Heck, that's how we all met him in the first place.

Bryant, did he ever tell y'all his stories on bear hunting in West Va.  I enjoyed the site he used too have. I can tell you one thing, nobody has researched Plotts any harder then he has & if he took another interest in a breed of dogs, he left no stone unturned trying to find out how they were bred or their origins.

Semmes...you responded to this post by saying I was passive/aggressive and then it all went down hill from there...then you called me a hypocrite further on down and then I felt like I was on trial with no representation...lol

when you mentioned passive aggressive I never could figure out why you said that so I just left it alone...

after reading my post again it was pretty half azz but I was coming down with a cold and didn't proof read it...

My thoughts were to bring up inbreeding issues with reduced gene pools in some endangered  animal in the zoo...I said that to bring up in general that all purebred dogs have a somewhat reduced gene pool and more, the more inbred they are...

I brought up my experiences growing up as a kidas...I never had a purebred dog and none of our dogs were vaccinated nor wormed...I said this to further bring up hardiness in a diversified gene pool...I also said that the first prebred puppy I bought got sick and that was my first trip to the vet ever...and the pup died so that was my first encounter with a purebred...just sharing info was all I was trying to do without writing a book...

I brought this up because someone mentioned something about never outcross or no need to outcross...so I thought it was a good time to bring that up...

since Larry Parker was on this thread I thought I would casually throw that out there about his announcement some 25/30 or more years ago...I thought I saw it in the back pages of the Full Cry magazine...I did not mean it in a negative way at all...but looking into the post it just gets thrown out there out of no where so I guess anyone could get it wrong including Larry...But having said that I was hoping Larry would talk about those days...I have been interested in the Parker curs because there has been much positive talk about them...

So...since you got pretty upset about it I will explain in more detail so you can understand why I said what I said...

Larry made that announcement and he met and possibly exceeded his goals on account he has a line of hog dogs that could possibly be a breed called the Parker curs...so I was recognizing his accomplishments...no more was said about it after it went downhill from there...

on the hypocrite comments...

I have said several times these dogs were not how I wanted bred but it worked out that way...yes we should do all we can to know the dogs we will breed...I knew the kemmers well and I felt I knew the plotts well enough...true not much on the redbone and leggy pit but I have known the owner for many years and value his input...knew who he was many years before I actually met him...

I had already been jacking around with trying to get the breeding going...culled one whole litter because I just needed an excuse to get rid of the pure kemmers...went through a bunch of culls and a ruptured uterus on a good female when bred...too much to list...

so I bred that kemmer to that halfbreed and got a few good pups and I thought I would move forward with it...

just because I went this route does not make me a hypocrite...believing in one way and changing directions to make something happen and even speaking about it on here several times should say something...not trying to hide anything about the dogs...

having done it this way may take somewhat longer but I am very confident I will recover within the next generation...not having the best in all things but good dogs...

yes this is getting long so I will add more a little later...

I said I was at a very important place with these dogs because the female I get will determine the direction I take...The pup I have my eye on may be my hub for a few generations if he continues on his growth...

In my opinion a great dog is not only great in the woods but also in the breeding pen...based on that I do not have one right now...but like I said...my goal is to gravitate in that direction...

Not upset...that ain't the right word...maybe a bit put off...but not upset...

It's cool, I'm willing to squash it if you are.

I really had no place sinking in on ya anyhow...

I'm ok with it as well...

   If anyone has hunted behind my finder holders please  identify yourself.
    No one on this sight has hunted behind my finder holders.  Your now lying to try to give credit to yourself over me. 

I have read his posts and noticed how he was always traveling to see them first hand. Man with all of the adventures and things he knows and seen he should write a book or keep an online journal like with a group page on facebook or something.

   I can stand on my own two feet instead of needing others to help me with credibility unlike what your tactic.  Just gives more credibility to your insecurity to play that kinda game.     I've had people tell me things about dogs that have seen come off your yard and you would not be very proud of what they said.   Never heard anything good about you or your dogs but then again I've never heard much about you or your dogs to speak of.    I don't run in bay dog bulldog circles either.  
    I don't hunt with anyone from this forum because I hunt straight catch dogs.  Closest person I know to me that does the is 3.5 hours away up in the panhandle of Texas.          I run 2 dogs at a time too.  Not like people of my style travel long distances to hunt their dogs with another's dogs.  Just don't do that with dogs like this because you only use a couple dogs and their are so few of use.   We do talk though, share stories, and talk about our dogs off this forum but I met them in large part to this forum.

He's just baiting you, he said it himself he just comes on here to mess with people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Man you really do have issues letting stuff blow over don't you, you say you've never hunted with anybody on this forum so what does it matter what they say to you. Geez this place is getting ridiculous, this used to be a very informative sight but there can hardly be a post made without a bunch grown folks who label themselves as men getting in a pissing match over the most absurd things, until the day someone starts paying your bills or feed bill then why worry what they say and constantly having to explain yourself.

Don't worry Goose... I'm cleaning house now. Oconee was the first to go, if anyone wants to join him keep acting like a school girl.

It's a damn shame grown men act the way some have in this thread... hell, I'm embarrassed for them.

U da man mike

X2
 
It was gettin ridiculous

X3.....I'm fairly new to the sport and this site has been an extremely informative place for me to learn and gain tons of useful knowledge. I had just about quit posting in here. I became a member here because every time I searched the Internet for dog related info 9 out of 10 times I'd end up getting my answer here anyway. I can see that there are still some guys on here that know there stuff and I honestly appreciate the ones that post there first hand tried and true information.   

Got cut off somehow. ...I'm all about a debate and enjoy reading through people's reasons for disagreements and discussions. But I don't like to hear people act like kids and take cheap shots at every opportunity they see available.  Thank you to the folks that run this site and keep that mess in check.  I'm sure yall know it but this place is a smorgasbord of good info for folks like me !! If any of the true dog  folks that have quit posting for one reason

GOT CUT OFF AGAIN !!!!               Or another are reading this....the folks like me who are hungry for knowledge and experience would sure appreciate it if you'd pick up where you left off.

BigO's been trying to get him to write a book for quite sometime.  He (Barlow) is also quite handy with a pen, and can write a story that would entertain anyone. 

Yes...I have heard the tales of his bear hunting days.  Mainly about the time he decided to go bear hunting, so he loaded up his dogs and went to the woods.  If memory serves me right, it ended up being about a 2 year long hunt before he decided to head home.  Lived in a tent in the woods, and hunted 24/7.  If that's not a way to evaluate dogs, then I don't know what is.

Most would think his stories are pretty far fetched...until you get to know him.

Thanks Mike...Am from the  old school.  It was very hard to keep my fingers from blowing up. Lol. People like that makes a man not even want to post.

Amen to that...

I knew is was debateing on death ears  so I bowed  out  hahahahaha  my wife taught me that  hahahaha

Gotta second GeorgiaHawgs on that one. I've heard off a few of the veterans and true dog men that used to hang out here, and left because the board went elementary. For what it's worth there are some of us young guns who really just want to learn. And I don't have anyone close to teach my in person, so this is where I come. Sucks that one bad apple can ruin the whole bunch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup that's why I quit posting for a long time till the other day and almost left again and would have if Mike would not have put boot to ass.

One that always stood out to me was halfbreed. Seemed he knew his stuff and had been around the block a few times. Haven't seen him here in probably 5 months


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's bad timing, seems like it only gets that way every few months or so, which is too much, glad you decided to stay

Ya halfbreed has good info, I hope mr Parker and buddylee stick around after that, I value their input as well

Now you got me wanting to hear that story!!! Thats sounds almost like the houndsman version of Walden hahaha. Man he needs to just get a blog going. Even just a simple one through squared space or something similar where you just type text and upload pics, you don't have to be good with computers or anything.

I ain't going anywhere. Too much to learn myself.

yep...I miss ole Halfbreed as well...

I do not remember the last time I posted or replied to this site because of the bull,but I still come and read two to three times a day. I've been running dogs for 25 years and when you reply on here you become an idiot. thanks Mike for the work you do and the patience you have.
I ain't old just out of date       Dwight Yoakam

Sorry if I rubbed anyone raw.

I am an old man and have bred a few hog dogs. I have bred lots of bird dogs and worked harder at it than most people do at jobs. One time I counted up the bird dogs I personally owned and quit when I got to 200.

Here is the deal and take it for what it is worth. Many hog dogs are not registered so it is hard to trace bloodlines. Bird dog men have been keeping track for well over 100 years. A registration certificate has 3 numbers under the dogs registration number. The first number is the number of wins that dog has, the 2nd is the number of winners that dog produced, and the 3rd number is the number of wins that the off spring had. Just because a dog has a great number of wins means nothing because some of them cannot produce winners. One group started keeping track of winners produced per times bred and that is the one to go with.

The American Field is a publication that comes out weekly and you can keep up with which dogs are running and winning. You can also which of their offspring are winning. Some of the articles depend on who is writing the article. Once I got to judging field trials I could  not wait to see some of the famous dogs actually run. What a shock for me. MY thought was this dog cannot possibly be the dog I read about.

Here is what I would do. The bird dog guys learned long ago that the horse guys had been doing it longer than they had. One of their secrets was a PRODUCING FEMALE. They are referred to as a blue hen. They can produce good dogs bred to any number of good males. One bitch named Hot Haunches produced 6 champions our of 6 different male dogs. She could just produce.

I would look for a producing female and I want to see the dogs with my eyes the dogs she produced. Breed her to a producing male and I want to see the dogs he produced with my eyes. Some guys tend to run the good females and not breed them which is a mistake. If you do that you will be way yonder ahead in the game.

Most of the best ol pit dog guys felt the same. You were in business if you could find that brood gyp.

Hog Dog Mike, are the majority of good bird dogs heavily line bred or do most breeders breed best to best?

I have 2 females that I don't hunt. One guy had 2 really good dogs off of one of the females. I told him that the mother had never been to a bay. She'd only caught 1 or 2 hogs in the woods. He told me I was crazy for breeding him. I asked him if he liked the 2 dogs off of her. He promptly shut up. The female was breed "right".
These 2 femsles are fired up and throw a high percentage of good rough hog dogs. I have a granddaughter to one of them that has her grandmothers fire. She's gonna get breed after I hunt her more. For some reason Id rather have a brood female than male.

My neighbor who is a bird dog man told me the same thing, his name is Cecil Ray Rester, he breeds English pointers I believe, I was over there not to long ago talking to him and he told me he would only breed a gyp one time and if the pups didn't meet his expectations then she was sold or fixed, he has a gyp name Fannie Mae that he won a national title with and he bred her to a male known to reproduce, he said he thought the pups were sub par to his expectations so he spayed her and now only field trials and pleasure hunts her, he told me that all the years he's been in the dog business that 4 good females have kept him in good dogs.

I could not agree more.

excellent post...thanks for sharing...

I believe a good female after proving herself needs to be taken care of as well...

Some are and some are best to best. The only thing that I know for sure is if you make a definitive statement about a dog along will come an exception. I started in the 60s and really got onto it heavy in the 70s. I had to pay my bird dog dues in money, time, and miles.

When I first started I didn't really know anything but figured that field trailers were the ones that do. It is like everything else in that some do and some don't. The trailers I got some dogs from were the wrong ones and it set me back years. They had some dogs that were bred in the purple but were just not very good. I bought a dog off of one of them whose sire was a National Champion and the dam was a direct daughter of a National Champion. It  don't get any better than that but the dog was worthless and it cost me about 3 or 4 years trying to bring him around. The trailer kept telling me he needed more work. I hauled the dog miles and miles and worked him over pen birds, pigeons, and wild birds. Finally  I culled him.

I got with a sure enough trainer that knew more about dogs and horses than anybody I have ever seen in my life. He took me to northwestern Oklahoma where we worked dogs in the summer. Then I got to go to the King Ranch with him in south Texas in the winter. I spent hours and hours in the saddle watching dogs. I spent hours watching dogs in front of trucks on the King and listening to my friend tell me about dogs.

One trip shortly after that was to south Texas down around Crystal City. Lots of birds. No excuses there for any dog. When I got back I kept one dog that was 14 months old and culled the rest. I got a couple of pups off of my friend and acquired another female and shortly had 4 scorpions. No holes in any of them. Wound up getting two more dogs to give me 6 that could run with anything, anywhere, anytime. Once you know what you are looking for cull anything that does not cut the mustard. A cull will eat more and live FOREVER.

You got to watch the dog jockeys because they will ruin your program. They do their best work in a bar or coffee shop. Seems that always the great dogs are either dead or not there. I have to run the ones in my dog box.

It is the same situation with labs, hounds, or squirrel dogs too.

Hog Dog Mike...

what can you say about the legendary Elhew line of English pointers and the original man behind them, Bob Wehle? I have been rather fascinated with his abilities as a promoter and breeder of some of his legendary dogs of yesteryear...I know he had the money to hunt and import dogs and to breed the ultimate English Pointers from what I have read and heard...I do know they were hard hunting and some of the most beautiful pointers I ever saw...I remember seeing 8 week old puppy pictures of some of these pups pointing bird wings...natural pointing and birdie instincts...

you having quite a bit of field trial experience so if you don't mind I would like to hear your thoughts on what so many doogers were saying back in the 1970's and 1980's about the field trials ruining the hunting dogs...this was coming from the hunters that did not field trial...I reckon the bottom line is that the field trialers were breeding to win and not worry so much about anything else...

What I remember is the coon hunters were saying the hounds are passing up good tracks to find a smoking hot track...also saying the dogs were ranging too far and hunting for themselves...

The retiever folks were saying that the field trial dogs were high strung and hard headed...had to keep a tight rein on them and will tear up the back yard if left unsupervised...did not double as pets like a hunting lab etc...etc...

The bird dog hunters were saying the field trials were ruining the dogs...especially the English pointers...they hunt for themselves it was said and you could not walk hunt behind them etc...etc...

It seems that about that time the German Short Hair became more popular because they were bred to have a strong hunting instinct yet were closer ranging dogs...hunting with or for the hunter...

These are some of the things I read and heard back in those days that folks were writing and saying...I don't hear much about it anymore...

so...with your vast experience as a field trialer and dog man, what are your thoughts on what I have written? I think it would be interesting and educational especially for the younger readers...thanks...

 

No problem. Here is the way the deal worked. Robert G. Whele turned his name around basackwards and named his kennel Elhew. He was from New York but also had a place in the south east. He wrote a book on bird dog training (Wing and Shot) and lots of folks swore by Elhew dogs. I got the book )(in the 70s), read it, and thought that I had it all figured out. All you have to do is go buy a Elhew dog and you were set. According to the writings they almost broke them selves, would out point, out back, out find, out everything anything coming down the pike. You have to actually buy a dog from his kennel to put the Elhew name in front on your dogs pedigree. Example you could not name a dog Elhew Jake but could name it Murphy's Elhew Jake.

I found a rich guy in Dallas that had several dogs he bought from Whele. I bought one and my buddy bought one. In my opinion they are inbred and you will see that if you run one, hunt one, or judge one. Mine would do pretty good for about 30 minutes and then she was going back to the truck and you could not stop her. My buddies dog was below average at best. Lots of them that I trained and observed seemed to be weak minded. Put some pressure on them and they would come apart. Not really tough dogs.

A friend of Whele named Dr. Alvin Nitchman ran a lot of dogs with Elhew blood but they were not the inbred ones. He did pretty good and had several winning dogs such as the Pork Roll dog. I had some good dogs that had a little Elhew blood in them way back.

The guys that bad mouth the field trial dogs probably got sold a cull from a field trailer. They will tell them Jake is a great hunting dog but just not run enough to be a field trial dog. Heard that many times and it is a dog jockey line. I personally owned dogs that won open horseback stakes, amateur horseback stakes, walking stakes, shoot to retrieve stakes, calcuttas, and could be hunted from foot, horse, truck, or 4 wheeler. Don't think a champion field trial dog cannot be handled on foot because they can.

When I finally got with some folks that really had some great dogs I ran mostly Rebel bred dogs. They were just smarter, tougher, and above all handled very well.

I don't know much about coon dogs. I will take a field trial retriever every single time. They are all great hunting dogs. If you doubt me go to an open trial and just watch the tests they have to do. Unbelievable. Any lab will tear up your yard because they are supposed to be in a kennel.

The bird hunter guys that bad mouth field trial pointers just watched the culls that got pawned off on hunters. I owned field trial dogs that I could hunt any kind of way you wanted to hunt. More than likely it was a dog that would not handle a lick. You can win a trial with all kinds of dogs but not a lost dog. A bird hunter organization had a trial that was a Calcutta. You had to buy braces once the names were drawn. All this money went into a pot and was awarded according to placements 1-5. Some serious money was involved. It was kind of a phony deal because it was only 6 minutes long and the deal was kill as many birds as quick as possible. I entered twice and won every placement and they banned me. The bird hunters got their plow cleaned by the field trial dogs. Most guys putting the bad mouth on field trial dogs has NEVER even seen a real one.

Here is the deal on German Shorthairs. If they are as good as pointers why do they have restricted field trials. Same thing on Britts,  and Irish setters. I have seen exactly 1 GSP run in a horseback trial and it did not place. I saw one good one back in the 80s at a trial down around Waco.

The hunting camp on the King Ranch had 50 dogs that they owned @ 4,000.00 each. They had 35 dogs at the lease on the Jones ranch @ 4,000.00 each. My friend leased them another 35 dogs. We also had several field trial dogs and others that we were breaking and tuning up. The owners were oil men and money was no object.

All of the dogs were English Pointers with the exception of a hand full of English Setters. It takes a special dog to run in the heat day after day, in front of a truck,  and they are better at it than any other. That is just a proven fact. I don't think a GSP has ever even qualified to run in the National Championship (there is only one) much less won it. Same thing for Britts and if a Irish Setter ever done it  was a loooooooooooooooong time ago.

I have judged a few Irish Setters and ran in some of their trials. I ran in the open trial because all the others were restricted. To this day I have yet to EVER see any Irish Setter actually point a bird, hold it, and let you flush it. One friend of mine just loved them and wanted to bring the breed back. He spent enough money on them to buy a black land farm and if he ever won anything in open competition I never knew it.

There are a lot of GSPs up in South Dakota where I pheasant hunt. They seem to do well there and my guess is that they handle the cold weather better. I hunted them when hunting for Hungarian Partridges and they did OK. Not as fast as a pointer but got the job done.

We mainly use labs for pheasants with an occasional Springer Spaniel. They do an outstanding job and they are not the giant fat labs that you see around here. These dogs cover some ground when they hunt.

Rueban said:

The retiever folks were saying that the field trial dogs were high strung and hard headed...had to keep a tight rein on them and will tear up the back yard if left unsupervised...did not double as pets like a hunting lab etc…etc…

I used to field trial Labs back in the 70's & can tell you, I'll take a field trial bred Lab over a hunting bred Lab anyday. I cannot stand to see a dog trot out to retrieve a bird & trot back. I want them running all out going & coming. Here is the deal. You can hunt a field trial bred Lab but you cannot field trial a Lab just trained for hunting. Like Hogdog Mike said, the tests they put these dogs thru is unbelievable. All Labs their first year or two & this goes for all the Retriever breeds will chew up everything. I will take the higher strung dog that lives for retrieving over the dog that is so nonchalant, could really care less if he goes & gets a bird or not. I have said these before & it pertains to almost every breed of dog out there, you can put brakes on a dog but you cannot put a motor in them. It has to be in them from the start. The Labs to day are two different breeds. They have the field Trial Labs & show Labs or a lot of Labs with showblood in them. Labs have become so popular that a lot of the desire to retrieve has been bred out of them & they are mostly just pets.
  On the Coonhounds, the way they are set up, you heard right, they have gone to a hard hunting, hot nose dog that trees a lot of coon. Same with the running dogs. They have hunted in pens so much, they have literally bred the nose off of foxhounds because of hunting in pens.

I'm different I believe in a dominate male  over  any female ....     a  dominate  male  bred  to  3  different outcross females  will usually throw a big likeness to  himself ....I've  never seen that in a female   ..  that's just what I've seen ....

Hog dog mike what breed or crosses do you run on hogs ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hog Dog Mike,

I 100% fully agree with you on the female and you're right...the horse guys figured it out a long time ago.

A month or so ago I was at the guys place who does my collections and we were discussing how much of a game changer it will be in the dog breeding world when they perfect being able to flush and freeze eggs and do embryo transplants. 

Hello hog dog Mike

Do you happen to know John Rabidou ., Uodibar kennels ?

I'm a young field trialer pretty much going through what you've said . I go all over the country running dogs off horse and go get guidance  from pros when I can .

there's a difference  in the horses  Bryant .....  dogs  have  multiple  offspring  in a litter ..... not  horning in on your  comment  just a little  conversation .... I like talking dogs ..... it all opinions  ......

Personally I like having a good brood stable but I could do it either way. First of all Horses are different because they only have one foal at a time usually. So that is why brood mares are so valuable. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Keep in mind scientific fact both male and female contribute 50% to their offspring. I would use one of two strategies.

One strategy is you have good brood females because great stud dogs are made public a lot of the time, it is next to impossible to get a pup out of a "blue hen" unless you own it or are in that circle but there are lots of top stud dogs accessible. So that is why a lot people look for good brood females.

But their is another strategy people in the bulldog world use with Males, won't work with horses of course because what was previously stated. It is if they have a top stud dog they stud them out to bitches they like for pups back, they make pup deals. You can accumulate a lot of good pups quickly this way.

the stud dogs I use  are real high hog instinct hunters ....all I  need to do is duplicate   them...so I breed too couple females probably half sisters and  breed those  offspring that look and  show his  desire and looks .... keeps  me  in dogs .......   

There's valid points both ways and either way is good if your dealing with good specimens to start with, I would like to think a man would be ahead of the game if he had a stringer of good prepotent females, but as Mr. Larry has stated a man could go the way of the good stud dog as well, the proof is in the pudding either because it has already been done for years in other disciplines of the dog game, far as the embryo transfer work, I'm not saying it wouldn't work because I'm sure it has already been done but I would think being dogs are multiple offspring in a single whelping type of animal would make it difficult.

Larry, which crosses produce your better dogs?Half brother/sister, aunt/nephew, mother/son, etc...

 it depends mike on the dog its test litter's ...even though they make dogs if they don't look right to for what I want I move on to something else .....right now I have  4 young gyps 3 off joe  x blister... blister is a friend of mines dog she is off a dog out of joe's littermate brother... I have one that is off my male dog sue x coyote she is a daughter of joe and sue is also a grandson of joes littermate brother .....also he is a grandson of joe ......whoow hope I got that all right..... now my son has a dog named slim that is out of joe littermate to coyote he's the real deal find dog .....we are  now breeding him cross  some  joe daughters as well as  sue daughter's and  sue  cross some  joe daughter's ..... my 2  boys has  2  gyps  out  of sue and two littermate sisters out of joe and e  use  them bred back on there uncle slim out of joe .....  hahahha its a mess .....  but that's why mine is looking such much alike ..... but I do like breeding dolike breeding 2 littermate sisters cross one good male  and  hopefully cross the offspring .....

lots of great info, thanks for sharing gentlemen

Parker.  Ive seen it in males also to.  A Prepotent male .  You can breed to a fence post and get post that hunt same as a blue hen female are a Prepotent female.  They come both ways.  I liked owning  the female a little better back in the day because I could get whole liters at a time out of them and my choices of pups.

Do you hunt these females or just use them as brood gyps?

I am temporarily out of hog dogs because I have custody of my 2 grand children and they are 3 and 5. My dogs came from friends that I have hunted with for years down around Franklin. Most of them were red curs and I had good luck with them.

My friend had an old dog named Rowdy and he was just a really good dog and produced good dogs and I had some out of him. Also had a red cur / cat cross female. The boys I hunt with always have good dogs.

I don't know him personally but know of him. He is a GSP man that hunts down south. He copied the Whele deal and changed his name backwards for his kennel name. From what I hear he has some good GSPs but I never did see any of them run.

There is a guy in Brownwood, Tx. named Pee Wee Cole that day in and day out always had some really good dogs. I ran against him in trials and judged a good many of his dogs. If he put one on the ground it was usually a pretty good dog.

There is still so much I don't know about breeding that it is not even funny. I always enjoyed getting with a lot of the top trainers in the country and listen to the have it out about dogs. Lots of different opinions, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.

There are some things you better not do. Don't go telling someone that "Pete or whoever" will do this or he won't do that. Anytime you do he is fixin to make a liar out of you.

One time I loaded up horses and dogs and headed to Oklahoma for a field trial. I thought I was ready. My best dog was outstanding and I was confident she would win. Where I made my mistake was telling the guy going with me that she was so good at backing I hadn't even worked her on it. We turned out an my dog just didn't look right to me and the other dog got the first point. I KNEW when I looked at her she was not going to back. It embarrassed me to death because she did it where EVERYBODY could see her. I don't think she ever refused another back for the rest of her life. Something about driving over a hundred miles and having over a hundred in entry fees.

I made the mistake one night of telling some guys on the lease how lucky we were that none of our dogs ran rabbits. We had one look like a grey hound the next morning.

DON'T TRY TO BREED AROUND A FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mother nature will show you not to do that.

I had an outstanding dog that did everything right. The guys on the lease wanted some more just like her. We went to the stud dog owner that produced other to see about some pups. He had a litter coming up out of a bred in the purple bitch. They bought 3 pups or maybe 4 out of that litter. When they got old enough to run they cut them loose and they would not handle a lick. This was hard to figure because the stud was a known producer, a 6 time champion, and my best dog ever was out of him. When we examined the papers come to find out she was a litter mate to the crazy dog I had got from the dog jockey's years before. In fact I had run the dog with the original owner and she refused to handle. BAD TRAITS IN A DOG ARE STRONG AND WILL BE PASSED ON AND YOU CAN BET ON THAT.

One time I bred 3 bitches, 2 to the same 6 time champion, and the other to his son. One litter where I bred 2 bitches was great and every dog in it was way better than average an some really good. The other was worthless and I culled every one of them. The male needed to be bred to a strong willed rank bitch. The worthless litter female was tough physically but on the timid side. The other bitch bred to the son had some good and some bad. The one I kept was a cull but the one I gave my buddy won puppy and derby for the state of Texas for the year. Her sire went on to produce a national champion for a guy in Tyler.

If you can find a stud that you have seen run and you like use him. If you can find a female that you have seen run use her. If you have seen some of their offspring run and you like them try to buy one or get a pup out of the next litter.

Some of the best bird dogs I ever raised were setters of all things. I wound up with a setter bitch that I had trained for a doctor. She was a really good dog and I used her all the time to aid in training younger dogs. I ran across a male down south that was truly outstanding and could hang with any dog, any time, any place. They wound up having 2 litters and every dog in each litter was a dog of some kind. Some were really good.

hogdogs my old blackie dog threw hogdogs out of anything you bred him too ..some of the gyps wasn't  worth the air it took to keep em alive  and the pups  made  good dogs ...and I mean some of them outstanding find dogs ..... it was gyps of friends of mine only one fo them as really any good she as a leopard cowdog and there is still dogs that go back to that around baying hogs .....one litter  produced red gal a super cold nosed gyp ,,Clooney dennis roach owned in Arkansas said he was a sure nuff dog ..genie I sold to david jewel  in baton rouge will Roberts and Brandon nettles still have  some of her offspring she  got killed  on a bad hog mike doyles lady gyp was real good and there is dogs out of her around still  .. barret chatman had a yellow  one that was good but real ruff and I started 2 and sold  them down south hunted out of air boats all these dogs same litter ....that's every pup out of a trash red gyp made  dogs ......I can rattle  off  whole litters that everydog  made a dog  .....he was a dominate breeder ......and  he  liked a  hog better  than anything and if he  smelled  hog scent it   may be 3  days  old     but he  would  circle  out further  and further  til  he  picked  them up  somewhere may be  half a mile  off ...and when you got him in hogs  you could not  catch him ...  blackie made me ......                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       hillbilly  I don't hunt  many gyps too finished .... I usually start them ....I got one  I am bringing this  morning to hunt ....  but  I like males  ...I can't stand coming in heat ......                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      fella's I believe  breeding good  dogs to good dogs and breeding  extremely line bred  dogs is way different .....

Larry...what wa's blackie?

momma was half cat and ladner daddy as mountain cur ...he didn't look like any of his litter or his parents  ...his sister was a red gyp queeny I coon hunted and squirrel hunted her .... one gyp black and tan I treed coon with also .... the rest I don't remember where they  went some died from parvo ....

Mr Parker if you don't mind me asking you said you started with one male and three females. After you went through your pups and found your keepers, what was your next step after that? Did you go back to the sire? Or breed pups? If you don't want to say I understand

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Tapatalk

it was 2  females and my blackie dog ..... I crossed those dogs 5 times each  .......  I was  just producing dogs  to hunt .......it was when I bred jr's momma bell blackie grand daughter  too  blackie that I really started trying to narrow  my breeding down because I had  watched all the black dogs that looked  like blackie  act  more  like him and breed  more  like him .....I actually progressed  with the breeding  of the dogs as  I believe  anyone  will .....

I see, thanks Mr. Parker

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6560 using Tapatalk