EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

It's gonna be a long post but maybe a few of us can gain some insight off of this.
 About 5 years ago or so I changed the style of dogs I hunt from short ranged, dead silent, rough as a cobb yellow dogs to some looser baying long ranged dogs.... Where as before a bulldog was never needed I had to have 1 now so I've been through a dozen or so in that time span to really start seeing what I want, what I expect out of 1. Here's what I've come up with. Roxanne was a blue and white gyp hard hitting, hard mouthed, extremely well mannered 32-36lb catch dog always caught on the jaw. Seemed to miss a lot of big hogs because she couldn't get a bite on them on the first hit but when she did she'd be there all day.. Jamie was a big black logger headed, I'll mannered bulldog. No fighting just noisy. 50-55 lbs. hard hitting nose dog. Missed very few but his mouth stayed cut up so much he was almost pointless to keep. PJ was next he had a little bit of scratch dog in him down the line but had been bred off a line of proven catch dogs. Very well mannered, super hard mouthed, 50-55lb dog 100% ear very rarely ever missed a hog from the day i started him. Heart of a lion and brain of a genius( I still own him). Then there's dirty. I raised him from 6 weeks old out of a line of proven catch dogs that were line bred for 7-10 generations if not more. These dogs were pretty much bred for the box. Game as they come but still had the brains you could put a handle on them and all of his ancestors were Allstars. I've hunted behind previous litters, mom, dad, all were phenomenal. So at 8 weeks old he was already catching pigs. I carried him with me everywhere I went. Was exposed to horses, cows, other dogs, kid, people. At 12-14 weeks old he would ear up and you would have to break him off but I noticed he kinda always would get a real wild look in his eyes when he got excited. None the the less I jacked with him and jacked with him trying to put a handle on him. By the time he was a year old he was a catching machine but he had lots of strikes against him with his manners that I couldn't correct which was a first for me on my yard.i carry a bulldog on a horse a lot too so it's pretty important to have 1 that's not a blooming idiot. So after talking to the man that bred these dogs and started the line he explained that when they first started this line of dogs that a few were like him and they were culled. Only brains and brawn were bred. So my question to the guys with knowledge is this a common occurrence with raising a game bred dog in a hunting home or is this just a bad apple that I got from a bad gene coming out years later. There were 9 in his litter 5 were raised from the 9 the other 4 are catching, mild mannered, making nice dogs.

Dirty
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p784/LoftinCattleCo/76B505D3-A950-4FBB-8FD1-E8D427715D09_zpsdcypm2ye.jpg) (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/LoftinCattleCo/media/76B505D3-A950-4FBB-8FD1-E8D427715D09_zpsdcypm2ye.jpg.html)

PJ
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p784/LoftinCattleCo/B0A376C8-0C61-4899-A95B-A721F3643A9B_zps9enajy5x.jpg) (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/LoftinCattleCo/media/B0A376C8-0C61-4899-A95B-A721F3643A9B_zps9enajy5x.jpg.html)

Roxanne and Jamie
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p784/LoftinCattleCo/9D2684FB-32C7-43A1-9226-0B9F3CE98B77_zpsjsxckqwa.jpg) (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/LoftinCattleCo/media/9D2684FB-32C7-43A1-9226-0B9F3CE98B77_zpsjsxckqwa.jpg.html)

I like the looks of the black dog in the ranger ...

Nice dogs. You can't turn that switch off and it will come up bout half the time in my experience


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank ya sir.

Judge that's about what I've gathered.. I tried several different ways to get him headed in the right direction. None were successful... I sure liked him but I won't have a bulldog that is bad about fighting and at a year old. I felt like it was just grow from there.

Man that sucks and that dog only got one thing on his mind catch something's ass he won't never change


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ever one I  have  had that showed aggression got worse ....

You might try neutering him and putting him on a low octane feed. He is expressing traits that used to be bred for so you might never get it out of him. You will likely never be able to trust him 100% not to fight. I try to keep hot dogs engaged in a hunt by leading them a lot. You can also double snap him up short in the box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

when you say from "game dogs" im gonna assume you mean  bred from apbts that have been bred for and prooven in the pit. if so, you need to think about that when you ask about the propensity to fight other dogs . not that aggresion  and being game are related or that being one means the dog will be the other also. sometimes the aggresion/desire to fight can be controlled and some times it cant. just remember  you are culling for something that for many many generations was promoted in the dogs makeup. ive owned many game bred apbts years ago  and most wouldnt tolerate other dogs  . a few would but they were also dogs that werent considered breedworthy. ive owned and hunted with many american bulldogs and some would tolerate  a whole lot from other dogs yet were as solid a catchdog as ever walked. ive also hunted with alot of apbts owned by others that were very manageable for catchdogs too but a few eventually got fighty if the situation was right. now ive seen both types in the same litters too. so  just select and if you wanna breed some breed the traits you like to the traits you like.  still chance though as they are bulldogs. and in my mind we are asking a dog to take his death on a hog yet not fight other dogs and sometimes that just dont work. just my 2 cents, gary

I understand Gary.. I guess better put would be he didn't even need to be provoked in the least manner to start his agression.. I know several guys that have dogs bred pretty hot and they are controllable which was what I was looking for when I raised him they were game bred but they had been bred down to a more controllable type of dog but still have the gameness to want to work, but that wasn't the case with him. Once his switch flipped he was wound for sound.. And with the exposure and time spent with him I felt like there should've been a different outcome... I guess like most say it's 6 ways 1 way half a dozen the other it's the chance you take with breeding a dog that's a little hotter than your avg yard dog.

His dad, brother, and sister from an older litter
(http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p784/LoftinCattleCo/A9DDCB46-AD42-4F7F-AB66-E97A7A71F5E9_zpskj1ifay2.jpg) (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/LoftinCattleCo/media/A9DDCB46-AD42-4F7F-AB66-E97A7A71F5E9_zpskj1ifay2.jpg.html)

sounds like his breeding woke up,lol. ive seen apbt litters that would shred each other if left together past 10 weeks old.  for use as a catchdog its not the gameness thats the problem, its the dog agression/desire to fight or kill  other dogs/animals. i had a ambull female that was controllable with dog agression so i could hunt her but not box her with other females. she eventually got loose at another owners home and killed another mature female ab. but later was still controllable with male dogs. its  shame you got one dog that isnt fitting the mold for his line but like you said you did the best you could.  hundreds of years of breeding is behind real bulldogs so i think we are lucky to get a good amount that will get along with other dogs yet hold fast on bad hogs. part of this is what i like about american bulldogs although the dog agression is there and more so in some lines or individuals. im sure some of the older dog men on here remember seeing the picture in an old pit dog magazine in the late 60s or early seventies showing 3 male apbts ;laying on a motel bed with their owner prior to that nights matches. all 3 won their fights and i think one of em won best in show also.  bulldogs.... go figger.

Here is what I have seen with bulldogs I have raised or been around for the last 27 years of my life. I have commented about this before a few years back and I think it applies here. What most people call gamebred apbt's and what I consider are different right off the bat but regardless of that here is my experience with them.

Remember first all dogs are different and there behavior kinda follows a line like this individual/line/breed. Next you are trying to get it to not do something it has been bred well over a 100 years to do, and culled very very hard for anything but that. So there are different lines of true gamebred apbts that are known for throwing super hot screaming dogs, and then their are lines that are just as good but that throw much calmer and what sometimes might even be mistaken for passive dogs. For example I have seen mayday and or redboy lines that throw the crazy on fire dogs that have to be separated at 8 weeks and I have seen other lines like a line of frisco dogs that throw more calm dogs. Just examples and I am sure you could find the opposite for both as well. Also the more generations removed they are from actual intended use they are, the better your chances are of having a more controllable dog.

I have said this many many times on here before other than the "cool" factor there is really no reason to use a true gamebred bulldog for a catchdog. There are so many other better options out there. First off a gbapbt will most likely eventually get hot, and even if you are on top of it, the minute you let off of them they will revert or if put in the right situation like a growly cur dog starting a fight might flip their switch on and then good luck getting it turned back off. It can be done but really why would you want to put in all of that work if you don't have to??? Next a lot of them even if under control make crappy catch dogs because they want to fight and kill the hog instead of just holding it. That was the case with one of my bitches I tried a couple of times. She would get on an ear but as soon as the hog started to calm down or slow down she would go to shaking out her hold until she ripped off ear or would let go and just shoot in for the throat.

In my opinion a true gamebred apbt needs to be thought of as a loaded gun, they can be effective as a tool but not everybody should have one and not everybody knows how to use one. And it could go off at any time no matter how you raised it or how much you think you know about apbt's. I never 100% trust them with other dogs and I always have a break stick on me just in case.

Loftin good luck with yours but if he is on, you will have to spend a whole lot of time like previously mentioned to get it turned back off and then you will need to be ready in case he has another change of heart. I hope some of my jabbering above helps your overall understanding better. Loftin you sure have some good looking dogs bro, and the best to you and your pack.

TheRednose you shared quite a bit of knowledge and confirmed some I had also some new insight... I'm gonna try to explain the best I can on the breeding of these dogs.. It started with a leopard spotted bulldog that came from a man in Cleveland,Tx claim was he was full blooded bulldog but nobody can prove it. He was taken over a red boy gyp that was bred for the box. Only the spotted pups were kept. Those were sent to working homes and only the controllable yet still game were kept for use. 1 of those pups were taken with an Eli dog bred for the pit. Outta those pups they took 1 back to the original leopard bulldog That started the line... That's when the breed standard was at the all time best from what I've been told.. 1 of those dogs were bred to a good bitch catch dog with no notable history. That's where dontrell came from. The blue dog in the middle. Dontrell was then took over Justin Harrell's white bitch. That's where dirty came from and the other 4 that are being used in all of our padnas yards.. I've had the opportunity to own some carver bred dogs, some bred down hammonds dogs all of which I opted out of because of like you said they are a loaded gun.. These were the next best option I had and were bred by hog hunters/cowboys to work in places where a sure enough pit dog would fold for the reason of constantly being in contact with cows, horses, other dogs,and I luck of the draw drew a bad card..

I see, so from what you just explained since there are more than a couple of instances or real gamebred bulldogs in their mixed with non gamebred dogs you are really going to have a crapshoot for at least a couple of generations. That explains why your bud's dogs are not hot and yours is. If you really like this line of dogs I would say breed your bud's best dog back to it best nongame bred relative or go outside to a line of catchdogs that are proven, who you know their ancestory, and are not game bred, but only catch bred. Then keep all pups in your circle and cull hard for dog aggression, then rinse and repeat. Then you will have your own line of catchdogs. Just my opinion, but regardless good luck with whatever direction you go in. Take care

-Michael

My reasoning for more of a game dog was the build, the bite and internals... Like you said for a 100 years they were bred to have lots of lung, a hard bite, and masculinity with little effort on top of wanting to work.. That's everything a man can want to start for a good catch dog now he has to add in a control factor... And with the breeding that was on these dogs it was there.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161003/cf4bd1f72f30517ad84999298b3a3af0.jpg)

My grandson just showed me how to use tapatalk...

When I saw this dogs picture I drove 4 hours to pick up a pup out of him...this dog I about 57 - 60 pounds and is an athlete...he looks better in real life...a yellow red colored dog...the pup won't be as nice when grown...but he acts right and will be leggy and fast...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Nice looking bulldog Reuben, is he dog aggressive or no?

Damn good looking dog Reuben!!

How much Catahoula is in those 3 in the buggy together?

Thank you fellas...

Rednose...I really don't know how dog agressive he is...he acted fairly well and not crazy...very good looking dog...he is Hammonds bred top and bottom...he is the sire to my pup...the dam is game bred as well and about 1/3 Hammond...

I tried to pick a pup that looked as much like the sire as possible...with the short time I had to decide I tried picking one that was laid back and calm and submissive to me...

The best bulldog I have had was a red game bred dog and hope this pup will do the same in time...

Good question...they are good looking dogs...they look more bulldog but colored like catahoulas...I have had a few of that cross and they were good dogs...

None to the best of my knowledge, on the first page I described how their bred.

Loftin, there is some cat or something in those bulldogs as that is not a color in the gamedogs world. Some years back the merle color popped up in the ADBA showdogs and there was quite a bit of research done and all dogs with that coloration had their papers pulled. I am not knocking the dogs in any way but that is just what I know bout them. Rueben, that bulldog has to have a healthy dose of Parkson in him.

Way out...what can you tell me about the Parksons...size, weight and disposition  etc...

I have a litter mate to yours Reuben. He is about 6-7 months old now out of eze buster he is started and coming along nice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JohnnyUtah...that is good to know...I heard some are catching the jaw and others on the ear...

I am waiting until I can guide him to the ear a time or two...

They are seven months old today...

Post a picture if you got one...thx

Mine is ear everytime. And I will get a good picture tomorrow. I'm waiting to take him to the woods until he's a year or so but he works well in a pen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161018/55f02ecadbff896bcb497f50ae283865.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only one I have at the moment that was this afternoon feeding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rueben, sorry I haven't been back at you but we just got the new barn and shop done and the house sold and we moved in a driving wind/rain storm this weekend. But if you want to know what I do about those dogs please call. I don't know a bunch but I owned one and have seen a few others. A good friend had Park Gatter till he died and that sucker could look holes in you.

thanks WayOut...I will call you sometime...I been as busy as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest...

JohnnyU...that is a good looking pup...I saw the last two black pups and they were built very nicely...but they were live wires so I passed up...

a friend of mine now in texas was good friends with the guy hammonds  got him back from. the dog was in the bakersfield area if i remember right. ill have to ask him what he remembers about the dog/ parkson.

Utah nice dog


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mr. Rueben that pic looks like Race Horse Hynes or his offspring, Gary Hammonds has some fine animals that produce well. That black bulldog pup looks like my boy Bo. It definitely takes a lot time and money to find the right mixture for a solid catch dog, hopefully one day ill get there.

Hey Joe how is your Hammond's bred dog doing? He catching good?

Race horse haynes is sure enough a good looking dog...I like the looks of that dog as well...

Big Joe...good to see you on here...

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=120870

It's funny when I see a pic like this posted the first thing I look at is the swivel on the collar. Yup, it's one I made. Gary has bought probably 75 or more from me over the years. He is the only one to ever have a failure and it was a young dog that got off and there was no problem. No I don't make them anymore. That dog is what Gary is basing a lot of his yard from.

Its good to be back guys, Bo is an outstanding catch dog and everything I've ever expected and then some. He is a hell of an athlete and I'm pleased to have him in my yard and now part of my breeding program. I will post some pics of him and a breeding I did, the pups are coming out great!!! Definitely well worth the money spent.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161116/33c2fb6f3e305f7b15849b0e32139566.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161116/2f56d12ede324f8b81ac2d8cec7251e5.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161116/b31305b695515cf9d05886ac943a091b.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Few pictures of my male at almost 9 months


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a darn good looking dog


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you sir


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice looking pup Johnny. I'm sorry if you have already said but did you get him from Hammonds directly?

Those are some really well put together dog's.

nice dogs,that snap is about to fall off his chain tho. we use a swivel with no snap,collar runs thru it.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161121/0acfd1c7ec548cf1da3479c51dc70d76.jpg)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161121/832e6362422ef9e393daa83f0641a1f2.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161121/0eb5d43ff5852b817a052a46a4d1ff53.jpg)

JohnnyUtah....this pup has the same sire as your pup...he is about 2 or 3 weeks younger than your pup...I am thinking he will mature between 58 and 65 lbs...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Hey Loftin, is Dontrell still catching? he oughta be about 8 years old or so now right?

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161121/c523258eef7ca29abb089af866569895.jpg) dog I just picked up from Scott Pugh that was sent down to us from Kentucky from mr York and Holman. He's a year and half and green as they come, ready to get to testing this joker out.

Psst...I go by Crib on this forum. ;)

I thought I saw Loftincattle co. had posted this morning as well as TheRedNose about my red pup...don't know what happened to the posts...but I will reply anyway...

Thanks Loftin...

TheRedNose....this pup gets along very well with my wife's dog which is a Westie...they are best of friends and get along well and play hard with each other...but I have noticed that they can not be penned together because Red has shown that he can get annoyed and so I do not keep them together not even for a short while...he is friendly with the other dogs but I can tell it won't take much to get him fired up...during the summer months there has been a few times I wet the dogs down and they have tried to dodge the water and that fires that pup up...so I make sure he does not have that exposure or opportunity to do so...he is very people friendly around the yard but will bark at pedestrians...if strange dogs pass by he will fire up and so I know I have to watch him...

like most pitbulls I treat him like a loaded pistol...I'm hoping he will make me a good catch dog...

Rednose and loftincattleco...sorry about the last post..
I read the first page thinking it was this one...at work I tend to get busy with all the planning and all...so quick scans on ETHD is about all

I think Weston had to put him down a month or 2 ago, but I know for sure in February Justin used him to catch 3 barrs back to back over 300 and he was missing most of his teeth but still had the bite he always had.

Reuben, I think I have the grand dam on your dog's bottom side. She is a hog lover

glad to hear she loves a hog...what is her weight?

She is Inn the small side 33lbs.