EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

What is best in your opinion? Small or large. I like large because I feel like they won’t be as much of a “erring” for a big hog.

A true APBT of any size gets my vote over any other breed of any size... 50 - 60 pounds is a good size. The smaller ones can get it done, it just takes a little longer

Smaller if he can anchor it down will Always  be better.  So  many benefits to a smaller solid catch dog


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The benefits of a medium to smaller size are many more the those 90 lb monsters. Some bigger ones might have some wind to them but not like a conditioned 50 lb pit. They move thru the thick stuff better and easier to handle on a lead. Easily loaded up or tossed over a fence. A hard mouth is a hard mouth regardless the size.


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My background is performance aunt's,  but I have switched to line bred catching aunt's that run from 60 to 90#. My male is 75 and he goes thru the woods with no issues because he is picking his way and not just busting brush. We almost always use 2 catch dogs but sometimes only have one and I want it anchored. To each there own but I want a defensive end not a safety holding a big hog.

I know it's not really answering the question but I think both have their place. My favorite dog ever was a 55# pit/cur cross that was everything you could ask for in a catch dog. Get into small spaces, easy to load, easy handle, caught hard etc etc. I am currently getting more and more into the finder holders. The speed and power of these dogs is unmatched. For the type of hunting I currently do they are better for me now. Large agricultural areas and smaller properties. They have all the stamina you could ask for, jump fences, catch hard and get through the woods like a deer. Contrary to popular belief on this site they can fly through the woods. These aren't big lumbering dogs. They are purpose bred for years for this job.

We hunt the marsh a  lot & usually use one dog. We like a bigger dog that can hold a hog . That is our preference. What Judge says is true; A hard mouth is a hard mouth regardless the size.  I used to have a lil 45# gyp and caught a lot of big boars with her but they could walk on her & you had to pick the time to run in and grab the hog but she had the bite.

One thing I noticed bout big catch dogs are they carry so much muscle they tend to get hot easy. I don’t dis like a big catch dog I just prefer the smaller ones


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It all depends on how your big catch dogs are built, if you have those barrel chested heavily muscled dogs then yes, overheating can be an issue but the type of big dogs that Tdog is using are taller rangier dogs. They look just like a bigger game bred dog. Plus most of them just sit down and wait while you tie the hog. They recover a heck of a lot faster that way than the over exited dogs of any size.

They best look like this tied to a tree while I am dealing with the hog or they might not make it. If they cry in the box or pull on a lead they won’t be around here long (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180525/b7d4e838e0cfd57778dfd501308aef07.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180525/612535c59707f87d9c7ff9be26b77392.jpg)


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For me, I much prefer a dog y'all would consider very large.    29 to 30 inches tall, fairly long and around 100  to 110 pounds.        The height and structure mean more to me than the weight, just using weight to help give visual to the size dogs I use.   
    Why I like such a dog can easily be seen on my Facebook videos.   When comparing the videos of Macey  the pit corso bitch to my wolfhound based dogs you will notice in the video's of the dogs holding the big boars, the wolfhounds center of gravity is more over there front shoulders when controlling a boar.  This allows for many benefits to the dogs.   You see how they hold and never get hit and make a big boar look like a joke.  Macey on the other  is a typical 60 pound pit looking dog.   She is fun to watch in the video's because the pigs are able to lift her up, throw her around, etc and notice do to her lack of size where her center of gravity is put when attached to the big boars.  You can plainly see the need for her vest because her structural difference prevents her from being able to pull a big boar around the way the other big dogs can.     They periodically get her In some rather awkward situations and off her feet and out of controle and sometimes even In the air as can be seen In some pics and videos lol.     
      In the water my big dogs can stand and hold big pigs in the water just fine but a shorter dog like Macey will constantly be struggling for controle because her feet wouldn't touch in the same places the bigger pigs can thus giving them the ability to hit the swimming dog and keep it off them and or inflict harm on them.   The pig rests and the dog is working out in that situation and the CD has little controle if any in this situation.        I believe in the last video I posted you can see one of the big dogs holding a pig in the water.   He had things well under controle, it was actually the pig that was using the energy to keep from sucking in a bunch of water.        In other videos you can see the big dogs walking with big pigs and others especially when a good pig is against a fence and trying to get through, you can see the same  dogs anchor a pig and not allow it to go forward where it wants to go.        You can see boars try to come at me and the big dogs turn around.    You can see pigs come at me when Macey has one one outed and I have to dodge the pigs.      If your on my Facebook, pay attention to the dog and particularly analyze them and how the two different style of dogs are capable or incapable of imposing their will.    After comparing the videos of each style of dog, can you really say the 60 plus pound Macey is an anchor?       In any of the numorous videos can you ever see one of the big wolfhound based dogs in a situation where the pig is controlling it like Macey finds herself in now and then?       
      I'm not a bay dog guy.  Those pigs are caught under different circumstances and since those pigs are so often allowed to run to the place of their choosing to defend themselves the average catch often happens in a different type environment than where my catchs are.    I think pits are more suited for lead in work than my preferred type dog.       My dogs are willing but their ability to move and avoid taken hits is stripped from them in stuff like briar thickets.  A good pit will usually take far more punishment and continue to hold than what a lot of my type dogs will.    For this reason I consider pits the kings of catch and the most appropriate style cd when used as lead ins by bay doggers

Your bring up some good points bubba. The main deference in a pit and your dog is one has only one use and purpose yours is multi purpose but the same end result.


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That's a great explanation of the differences in the two different styles of catch dogs Dean and something probably 95% of hog hunters, especially bay dog hunters, never take into consideration, and one of the reasons I've pondered the thought here lately about trying to cross a dog of your style onto one of our game bred pits, to add the height and frame without getting to bulky and sacrificing lung capacity, and maintaining overall athleticism,to add to the control factor, nothing more than an idea at the moment, what's your input, they'd be used as lead in CDs...

My preference is the 50 and below catch dogs, honestly the main reason is more on the sentimental side because of my love and history with APBT, and next is because most of the terrain I hunt dictates what the most successful, most of what I hunt is really thick and a dog has to be athletic enough to maneuver through the saw briars and such and make it to the bay without being so wore out from having to Waller its way through the thick, and doesn't sound like a bull in a china shop either, I've owned and hunted several bigger dogs over the years and have had a few that were as nimble and quick getting through the thick as a smaller dog, but I don't run across those very often, aside from the hunting I look at the economic side of things as well and a smaller dog doesn't eat as much feed as bigger dogs and most of the time doesn't require the maintenance and upkeep that comes with the territory of owning bigger dogs, there's no right or wrong style, as long as it gets the job done and satisfies you that all that matters...

Goose I'm sure such a cross would produce good lead in catch dogs while maintaining the things you pointed out.      However, I think breeding my type dogs to a fairly small pit   would  throw pretty small offspring, would yeild a smaller dog than one might expect from my type dogs.     I would figure you would get 70ish pound 26 inch dogs.      They might be jam up but one would never know till they tried it.      If your interested in crossing to one, my type dogs would most likely yeild a much more consistent litter of hard and well built pups than a stag bred for coyotes.       
         I bred a really nice stag wolfhound cross dog I raised to a 3/4 pit 1/4 cane corso bitch I have.    Those pups are 10 months old and are awsome.   They are the real deal.   Probably will rival or beat anything I've had to date.      A breeding like your wanting thinking of would yeild similar results but in a smaller package being that the little pit would throw smaller offspring than the pit cane corso bitch I have.   
           Your welcome to send me a PM and I'll add you to my Facebook if your not already on there.        I keep my friends list pretty small and private and try to keep it exclusively about pig dogging.      My girlfriend keeps tagging me in stuff though and it's turning into a fufu page lol.         

IN MY OPINION, for the way we hunt,  I like the bigger catch dogs. I have had some of everything and there were good  ones and bad ones in them all. I have caught my share of big hogs and bad hogs. In nearly thirty years of running my own dogs, I have only lost a few catch dogs. Only one of them was big. He got hung up by the vest on a tree out in the river and drowned before we could get across to him. I had one female that caught everything we aimed her at. She was about 40lbs. One boar cut her 25 times while she was caught and wearing a vest. We were only 40 yards away in the wide open and were right there to leg him. He started slinging her the second she eared him. That's how fast it happened. Another 45lb female was killed and not even cut. Big hog hit her one time and sent her sailing. Another Male about 50 lbs  caught a boar about 200lbs. The hog slung him around past his head as he hit and caught the dogs front leg and crushed it. The hog broke and was bayed 30 yards away. 3 legged  he hit him again and the boar hit between the vest and cut collar. By the time I stuck him the dog was gone too. Another Male about 50 lbs was caught and the hog cut and nearly ruined my  best find dog because the hog didn't even notice  the catch dog on his ear. These are examples of why I don't use smaller catch dogs. My bigger catch dogs have the wind, the brains,  the style, and the disposition to excel anywhere. I have watched them outrun 45lb athletes. I have solo caught hogs that were said to be "uncatchable". I don't have to lead them so there isn't an issue of them dragging me or getting tangled up. When  I'm ready for them to leave the hog alone, they do. There's no tree or leash chewing. No screaming or grabbing at anything that's moving or running past. They think on their feet. I'm not saying that mine are the greatest. I say all this to say that they are on the bigger end and they possess the traits and style that work for me. I  don't have hogs moving around with them. They can take the punishment dealt them. I can crawl in on my elbows and know its caught and not coming to me. I can catch as many as I can get bayed in a day. They get through the brush as good as my bay dogs. I like'em.

He may not be much to look at to others but this one here is dang near ideal in my eyes far as looks and his catching ability and style, this is his first full year of being the main cd and we’ve caught some nice hogs with just him, he could have a little longer legs but other than that he’s one of the best I’ve had the pleasure of going in behind, the biggest problem I fault him on is that he doesn’t belong to me, but I’ll have some pups out of him any day now...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/e9a32e6811044d9318742ea419161938.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/f66d8e34a9c60092b3489f953281dc91.jpg)


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Nice animal goose that is my ideal size and look


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My main background with dogs is with game bulldogs and I have owned dogs off of some of the greatest dogs of all time. With that being said I am with T-dog and Dean on this. They are talking about two different types of dogs but both on the larger side.

The holding styles I think Dean is talking about I compare it to humans this way. Picture a super tall guy like a big professional basketball player facing a short guy and reaching out with his long arm and gripping the top of the short guys head, while the short guy just flings his arms hitting nothing but air due to him not being able to reach him. This I believe is why Dean is more concerned with height and frame. VS a little buff guy holding that same short guy in a headlock, both can be effective but one takes way more energy and has the potential to take way more damage. You have to have a very tall dog for this type of holding style but it is greatly effective because they take little to no punishment and can hold this way for much longer periods. There are other similar styles to this as well that Dean is talking about too but this is the one that opened my eyes to what those types of dogs can do.

I noticed the same thing that judge said about bigger bulldogs overheating much easier, in fact I hunt with a couple that almost over heat themselves going to the bay lol. But if you can get the right genetics on a big dog then that is not a problem. Its just so much easier to find small ones with big gas tanks. Last week I watched a 75lb bulldog catch 4 hogs in about an hour an a half and not even get hot or even pant, where the little bulldog we brought as backup didn't even get sent in and he was panting because of how hot and humid it was. That is just genetics. Both live in the same environment but one just has superior genetics. These are the type of bulldogs T-dog has and is talking about. As for getting through thick stuff that imo comes down to two things, the amount of brains the dog has, and how often you hunt that type of environment. A smart big dog that is raised hunting in that kind of thick stuff will learn how to navigate it pretty easily.

Depends I don’t care the size although I prefer 80 lbs. As long as the dog has brains and wind then I’ll feed it. I can not stand for a dog of any size to not mind and one that takes 1 step and is out of breath.


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I like a cd that can hang for a long time and have a lot of gas in the tank. Mine can run for miles with the bay dogs I don’t prefer that but they do it. I can call them back but it don’t always happen.


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T-dog, I’d sure like to know the breeding or lines of the catch weight bulldogs or family you are using. They sound pretty solid in all aspects for sure for bigger type bulldogs.

For me personally ive mixed the best of both worlds, with pit mixes/the right dogos/scott bred abs, ive been able to get a cleaner holding, longer legged, more athletic lead in cd that is similar to your wolfhound type holders but as hard as any pit in our "bad situations" bay dog hunters like me turn cds into.

Athletic is key, big or small, endurance is # 1 bc if you cant breathe you cant fight, ( I would take a hard cd with good endurance despite any size, ive seen as many small dogs vs big dogs have trouble here, the build and muscle mass matters.) # 2 is keeping the legs on the ground and getting in the right spot that short pits have trouble doing on big hogs, they get their feet up in the air like a dish towel in the wind simply bc of where their mouth is vs the hogs ear and despite not letting go they can not anchor and control a hog like a wrestler as good as a dog with longer leg. I love all good cds and have caught many of pig with all kinds but hardness that will never let go in bad spots, endurance, clean holding, and dominating pigs like a wrestler are key imo for the best all around cd.

and fyi real pits are 40 lbs what most hunters call real pits are mixed with something or they wouldnt be 60 lbs

that said bc my long legged athletic dogo has been snake bit ive caught 2 big boars in two weeks with a short leg 45 lb pit lol

A lot of pits that are used for cd are of mixed breeding of blues bully’s staffs and what ever they just get classified as a pit most I have seen people use are of the staff but think it’s a pit. For general purposes it it due to the fact it originated off the same type of dog. If you do some bulldog history or kinda know what’s up there are many game dogs of yester yr that where above the 40 lb Mark. Now smaller was the average but there where many good dogs of the 55 lb range most think there match weight was there chain weight if you matched a dog at 40 his chain weight was probly 52 or so and so on this lead to the myth that all true game dogs or apbt was a 35 lb dog not always true. There are a lot of variations in this type dog due to the breeding of each different families of dogs but the where still kept game. Game dog is a state of mind for the dog not a apbt label.


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yup, im one removed from the fight world but my breeder would generally agree. State of mind I defiantly agree with as i have some dogos and ab's as hard or as game as any pit in this world.

Here is an example of what you are talking about judge in a documented pedigree.
This dog was owned by a boy so distant relation of mine.
I don’t have dogs from this line nor do I claim any provinonce. But I have studied this and been a bulldog guy quite a minute.
This dog conditioned was 55lbs at the turn of the century. Stood at 7xw with no takers for years.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80537 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80537)

 If you look at his sibling list you will find this dog.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=533442 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=533442)
And couple others.
You follow that dogs sibling forward in time you come up with amstaffs traded back and fourth
Across the ocean and developed into that ‘breed’
This is real history.
I have been an ab guy since 2003. But found it lacking in wind abs maybe a little overdone in other temperamental areas in some lines once I got into hunting.
I now breed crosses.
Make em squeal... where did you get your ab’s?
Just asking... want to know what you are working with?
I know Alan pretty well and just wondering what Scott stuff you are referencing big to.

From
That last ped u will end up eventually in 1936.
Obviously amstaff split off.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=533469 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=533469)

Then you get here pretty quick
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=532773 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=532773)
All this from an original gas house imported blood  large game dog from turn of century (last century)as a sire component.

I gave ownedtwo dogs grandsired by Joshua’s cowboy.
On from lem and one from a customer lem.
Sure are a lot of similarities of cowboy and tre previous peds.
http://joshuakennels.com/page.php?9 (http://joshuakennels.com/page.php?9)

Semmes I am gonna speak for Tdog here. You wouldn't recognize much in his ped as they go back 5or 6 generation with his name for the most part. I judged shows for the ADBA for over 20 years and used to have a pretty good handle on lines. One of the few dogs I recognized was Freemans Preacher. You won't find any famous pit dogs in his line as he took a superb 80# lb. Catch dog and built a line of dogs from it. They have been registered with the ADBA but won't be much longer cause finding quality outcross dogs with papers is nearly impossible. The male I have from him is everything I wanted and a great pet to boot. I have taken 3 of my Jeep/Rascal/Redboy dogs down and they were very good at catching hogs but the problem was too excited. Being yanked thru the woods was no fun. There are lots of good dogs out there but I  would put T's up there with anyones.

Ya I have heard from Tdog bout his dogs they sound pretty good. A dog won’t last long with me if he don’t settle down and behave its self that’s more on the handler then the dog but they have to have a touch of brains to be able to get it. Don’t make them catch better but it sure is nice most cd I see that people come and hunt with me or I go with them I would leave in the woods


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I think this topic is mainly focused on lead in catch dogs, which we don’t run. I know many people on here hunt with just a few bay dogs and a lead in but we hunt simply to rid farmers of pig problems. So with that being the goal we try to get them and shut em down hard. Typically have at least 6-7 dogs on the ground and most everything catches. Usually have 2-3 pits in the mix. There’s one little pit named trouble that’s only 25lbs. He was the runt of the litter with parents being 60ish lbs. This little dog has more heart than any dog I’ve ever seen. He’s the kind of dog that will hold on while standing in his own guts. He’s fast through the woods and catches on the nose every time. He’ll find his own pigs if they’re close but he’s a RCD for the most part. One time we hit a sounder with mostly young dogs, and all the dogs split up trying to go after their own pig. Heard a squeal and ran over to find him hanging on the nose of a 275lb boar getting tossed all over the place but he just wouldn’t let go, lol.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/aaa0809b029ef85ab1b4c7e9da3db862.jpg)

He’s the little brown dog on the right side of the picture. He’s between 3 and 4 years old now


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The guy I hunt with has also been running the two pits that are on the right side of this picture for a few months now. They’re about 65lbs. Really good RCD’s and if the two of them are hunted together they usually kill the pig by themselves before you get to it. I think they tend to get cut more than the little dog Trouble though.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/6d394ec46c4adbda7b9a9385b82cce0b.jpg)


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I have done just that

     Sir I don't mean to make you mad but not 1 of the breeds you mentioned are similar to the mind, or structure, or athleticism of a wolfhound.   In fact all of those breeds you bred together to get the dog you describe only come from the same nich of pig dog.       Stack a pit, dogo, and  AB up to one another.   What's the big body structure diffence and mental difference in one vs the others.       
     That's like a beer drinker combining 3 different  brands of beer and telling a whiskey drinker he now has something similar to whiskey.               
    You can't  take 3 cars,  combine them and get a similar 4×4   1 ton work truck like I use out of them, no matter if 1 is a Roles Royce, another a caddy, and another a lincon.  Each is still a car and your new creation would still be a car.     
        I say this bluntly because truth needs to be shared and kept in check.     Way to much misinformation is allowed to flourish and go uncorrected.    Others come along and read it oblivious to is incorrectness and then are worse off for having read it if they know no different.   
       

Now... I will disagree with this statement. Judge explained it in his post but I couldn't just pass this by and not respond to it. Will you please explain to me what a real pit is? I guess I don't know because I have what I consider to be real pits and quite a few have been well over 40 pounds. I can assure you these dogs have not been crossed with any other breed of dog and are ADBA registered dogs. Once I see what you call a "real" pit we will finish this discussion.

yup, im one removed from the fight world but my breeder would generally agree. State of mind I defiantly agree with as i have some dogos and ab's as hard or as game as any pit in this world.


Make-em-squeal, I will disagree with this too... APBTs are the gamest dogs made and it is not fair to the breed to say you have a mixed breed or ab that is as game as any pit there is. You must be a long way removed from the "fight world" as you put it if you think you have a dog as game as a good APBT!

Black streak I agree with your last post.

Make em squeal is just reinventing the composite breed that is the ab.

I know because I am as well... just stuck on stupid I guess.

But I do love the ab, I hate it at the same time.

I feel it was a job halfassed done from the getgo. And good ones can be a flash in the pan that can’t produce with any certainty.

But the good ones can also be some of the greatest ones.

Tmatt, I also agree with you... pit bulls are the wellspring of the greatest ‘gladiators’ of the dogworld  in existence today and the component that adds the finishing edge to any real life on the line gambit in the world of canines. If one is looking for pure selflessness and die doing the job the pit bull is the component.  Not to say ebt, some mastiffs, and other ‘breeds’ can’t or don’t reflect these traits ...like abs or dogs. But this gene comes from the bulldog and it’s most original manifestation today in modern times is the pit bull.

Now I can dig the various Lurcher crosses in the same rite.  A lot of which may also exhibit infusion of genes of the precursor to the bulldog...the Aluant or whatever. Even modern greyhounds have had recent infusion.

I can dig terriers too... the only other dead game pool of canines

We could go deep on that as well but the apbt embodies the combination of both those breeds already hence the enormous size variation. Making it the the pinnacle of a natural selfless gladiator in the world of cannids

I watched a funny video online the other day...maybe I’ll try and find it again and link it....

It was of a well over 150lb kangal...

These are the fighting dogs of the Middle East. They are giant. I have seen videos of them whipping 40lb pits adnausium but the outweigh em by 3 times and have 2inch hangers.

The eastern dog breeds when matched evenly are just wrestlers. Not really killers...

Anyway this dog was next to a hogpen with maybe 200-250lb punk farm boars in it.

The dog was raising hell and with encouragement from handler would just hop fence on it on will, cause it was so dang big. And nip a boar on its backside. When confronted it would hop back over and go to baying. This happened prob 10 times in a five minute video....the whole time the dudes are praising this accomplishment. I’m thinking any 15 lb patterdale would be swinging any decent pit it be game over. Not to mention anything with any ounce of blood from either of those breed genesis.

I guess it don’t take much to excite em in that side of the world...

Maybe cowards just can’t help but breed cowards

Semmes...I have seen the same types of videos with the dogos and the handlers get all excited about a nipper that backs up and bays...

I am one of those that first impressions carry a lot of weight...there are no excuses...either they are or they aren’t...

I am a fan of the terriers myself and the Europeans have some terriers that will die before they back up...and they have some of the best breeding programs as well...

IMO the Pitbull is the best of the best...but even they have gotten in the wrong hands for breeding quality dogs and many pit bulls have lost those traits that have made them the best...

I could post some videos of ABs in Russia readily available on YouTube, if you know where to look cause it’s in Russian, that would give insight into the fire the various lines of  ab could produce...

I won’t tho  out of respect for mike’s sire because they are most def illegal, I just say this because I believe the ab to be a composite with a heavy 1920’s Colby type pit bull base.

The dogo is much the same...

$ signs and the high prices of dog breeds can stop advancement and elevation
in it’s tracks.   

Performance in whatever venue should always be the only dictating factors in the development of a dog breed, In any venue.

I know I’m preachin to the choir here with hunters. But the vast populous has stifled the advancement of most recognized breeds. It’s pc culture of the dog world

I like bulldogs of all colors and size if they work they work but I like the smaller ones they have worked much better for me then the big ones.


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How is it the most game dog? If the dogs was so game people wouldn’t pull out of the box because of 1 pound difference if a dog is game and so amazing they should be able to take any dog no matter the size. That’s like saying a 155 pound black fighter is the baddest dude ever when a normal 200 pound fighter would rake him.


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They have been bred for 100+ years to be game... no other dog has been bred for gameness like an APBT has been.

Size has nothing to do with gameness. Just because a dog is game does not mean the dog is the baddest. There is a huge difference between gameness and being a badass. The reason people take the forfeit on a pound is because you want to be evenly matched and not give the other dog an advantage. No where was it ever said that the APBT was the baddest dog ever. Maybe your definition of gameness is screwed up... a little research in that area would go a long ways.

Game in my definition is a dog that will go at it 100% weather they are win losing or on deaths door they will fight with every thing they have. N I have seen dogs do that from a lot more breeds then just a pit.


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Of course you have... You've seen everything. Did you see one continue until they were actually dead?

Hey Kai I would like to share how I look at this.

Gameness has nothing to do with size and it also has nothing to do with ability. Gameness is the willingness to fight and continue to fight regardless of pain or any other circumstance. There is different degrees of gameness, the highest being dead game meaning they are willing to continue to fight even till death. That being said many dead game dogs have lost, that is why we know they were dead game. That is the only true way to know they were dead game without speculation. Many times they have lost to dogs that were far less game but much more talented. That is where the term game plug comes from, a dead game dog with no talent.

Other breeds of dogs will show certain levels of gameness as well as some gamebred APBT's will be curs. You have to remember these dogs are made of flesh and bone and are not machines so nothing is absolute. But this being said it is the APBT that on the most consistent basis shows the highest levels of gameness with nothing else even coming close.

-Michael

Once I am not saying that pit are good game dogs I am saying u can’t say that they are the best ever n most game when they only bin breeding for 100 years like said


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I understand but I wonder if that is because people mostly match apbt n don’t look at other dogs to match 


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If the men that are betting money on a dog to win thought they could win with something other that an apbt, they would.

The bulldog has been around for close to 400 yrs that is documented in folklore and paintings and as war dogs. The bulldog came from men trying to beat and whoop other animals and for food. Many types of present day dogs as well in and before the mid 18th centuries the dogs found no equal game so they turned them to each other to test the quality of there dogs. Nothing beats this evaluation only the best survived the most game and the most talented as fighters and the easiest to handle. The dogs that drifted off into other breeds have the structure and physical presents to compete. But the only way for a animal as a whole to stay that game is to be contested plain and simple. I have seen a few breeds of dogs that could hold there own in a alley way or a back yard but the controlled pit where a dog must scratch back into its rival is a deferent world. Two lbs or less and the right conditioning and mouth or position can cost dearly. That is why handlers will take the forfeit and go. If there was a better contest dog the bulldog would have faded away.


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I agree with your synopsis Rednose.

I probably shouldn’t have included the phrase deadgame in the terrier comment.

But some of those little dogs come about as close without actually testing for it.

Bryant on here, also goes by underdog. He doesn’t post much anymore.
 
He used to have a message board called bonedigger.

There was a guy from around lake Charles LA that used to post on his board. He had patterdales that he used on levees hunt hunting nutria. Man if you ain’t ever seen a nutria and the giant chisels of teeth they have then you can’t appreciate what I’m saying. But the dogs were smaller then these big rats and guy would send one down the hole. Basically to fight and hold this rat for as long as it took for him to dig with a shovel down to it and grab the dog out by the tail still holding the nutria by the head. Not like a dog can subdue an agile creature like a nutria with any hold besides it’s head.

I’ll never shake the image of some of the injuries those little dogs fought thru. Sinuses crushed, noses gone, just ate up. But still they held. Dirt falling in all around the only retreat is to back up hole to small to turn around losing oxygen sometimes. Hot as hell. Basically fighting face to face and giving away size with the animal in its own den.
 
I imagine if you got a good one out somehow without it prey a person could scratch it right back into that hole. But that just ain’t the game they play in the sport. But man that’s pretty doggone close to dead game and a lot did die doing it.

Plus I’ve heard of folks matching them in the bed of pickup trucks against each other and betting on it so I suppose somewhere along the way the could have actually been selected for gameness...

Thinks makes me think of a quote from an old game dog guy that went something like this "I'd breed to a bird dog if I thought it could help me win". I may have butchered that a little but you get the point.

Ok, I will ask again... Have you seen one of these dogs that you claim to be as game as an APBT continue until they are dead?
I can say they are the gamest dogs ever made and will continue to say they are the gamest dogs ever made. You will, on occasion, find a game dog that isn't an APBT, hell there is a chance you may even find a blue dog that is game for that matter but they are few and far between.
Pitbulls have been being bred for well over 100 years... Name 1 other dog that has been bred for gameness for even 100 years.

Exactly!!!

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

lot of good debate in this thread. and i could definately throw in my 2 cents too,lol.  but back to the original question.... my personal opinion for the way ive hunted the last 20 some years  is large. and in my case it was 60 to 90 pound american bulldogs. but for 20 years prior i rarely hunted with anyone who used a bulldog/ turn in catchdog. we just had dogs that typically would catch and hold once enough of em got there.  i think the actions, size and ability of the other dogs  will determine the size of catchdog you need.  if you have dogs who will all grab and hold as soon as one dog is brave enough to grab the head then the size of the first dog to grab doesnt matter usually. when i first started using the american bulldogs , my partners pack consisted of mainly dogs that bayed and werent help on a good hog so  basically the catchdog was the only dog holding. for that reason i prefered bigger bulldogs. currently my  partner has rough/catchy dogs  and in general bigger dogs also. with these dogs a small bulldog works just fine.

I said once meaning one time. Are we just talking about the pit? No I can’t name another dog. Talking about hunting then yes.


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Yeah some of you hardcore pitbull guys seem to be talking about gameness in the fight world. I've seen plenty if hunting dogs of many different breeds be extremely game on a pig to dead game. Many dogs die hog hunting either from the hog or the heat because they work them selves to death. I know it's different than gameness in the pit. But, it would technically be dead game because they dies doing their job.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

sambo and hyan... now you got it. the pit dog  guys refer to gameness only in one way and that way is in the box.  i guess what should be said is gameness is subjective. gameness in the box against a opponent of the same weight and hopefully both in shape is where the apbt tetsts gameness. but a dog that dont quit on a hog can be called gameness for the act of catching hogs. the same can be applied to catching butterflies. if that is what you do then a dog that never quits in his attempt to catch a butterfly then hes game for that .  in typical combat sports for men, roosters and true pit dogs they are matched according to weight.  in hog hunting it isnt a match to see which individual can win.  im not trying to be sarcastic just glad to see now people getting on the same page  concerning gameness.  physical conditioning also really comes into play  for how long an animal or human will continue fighting. its easier to take a whoopin if you arent also physically  and or mentally exhausted. if you look deeply into dog and cock fighting you come to realize that animals dont always have to be truely  deep or even dead game for you to win a good majority of your fights. THEY NEED TO BE GAME ENOUGH TO WIN.  carry this over to hog catching and true deep gameness or dead gameness doesnt typically catch hogs. a dog with enough gameness to catch hogs  usually does the trick,lol. and arent we wanting dogs that catch and hold hogs succesfully . at least in this thread.

Gary your right the more game in the dog the more it will try to reposition it’s self regrip. Bad deal for a catch dog great for a fight. A lot of cur dog or cross bred cur x pit dogs will do this as well. The best suited bulldog is what we use to call farm pits bulldogs that weren’t hot but could handle bizz when called upon to do so. Basically a cold bulldog that was to no use to be contested but could thrive as a pet and multiple use dog. These dogs where sold by the truck load.


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That’s the point I was getting at I think a dog can be tested and be more game in a hunting situation then in the pit just because it’s a light weight going against a super heavy weight. I know a lot of people say funny stuff about one out finder holder dogs but in Australia not saying they work every where or are the best just saying there I have seen dogs hold pigs for 30 mins in the middle of summer and be on the verge of death from the heat and still holding or a cd be bleeding to the point they can’t walk or even stand but still hold. Matching dogs or cocks for that matter is illegal and I think there are other ways to test a dogs game and harder ways then in the pit. That being said I do have the up most respect for dog men that did match dogs. I just think imo that there are harder test then in the pit with a dog of the same size. If I have a gamebred dog that is just bred out amazing but never tested in the pit how can I say I have a game dog. I can sell the pups for a ton of money because of the papers but my non tested dog could be a cur n throw 9 out of 10 cur pups. Again that’s just my opinion and I don’t condone any illegal activity lol


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Yup a 300# boar with 3-4 inches of ivory hanging out of its mouth is a pretty good test if you ask me. Lots of dogs of all breeds have found that out the hard way.

I feel that the hogs are not a true contest of game ness of a dog in the contested aspect of the word due to this. The big 300 lb 4 inch cutter hog can kill any dog with one good swipe only testing the up front gameness of any dog. I feel like the finder holder type dogs are more based on there physical attributes not there willingness. All tho they are game in there own right it’s not the same. If you seen a white tail whoop a elk you would say dam but if you seen a elephant whoop a elk you wouldn’t think much of it.


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Again that just goes to show that gameness that is highly valued in a pit isn't as important in a catch dog. And no disrespect but the finder holders are pretty game. They have also been bred to do a job for many years to be good at it. I still say many on here have never hunted with true finder holder type dogs. Yes their size and physical attributes help but that is kinda the point of them. Right tool for the job kinda thing. Just because a small dog can catch and hold a big pig doesn't mean it was the best way. Especially when you get them off and they are beat to hell and cut up. Where the big dog did it easy.

The only sure fire way to test a dogs game ness is with another dog, talking APBT, it’s encoded in their DNA to conquer and destroy what ever is in front of them, they don’t have the fight or flight mentality like a wild animal such as a boar, a hog has it in his mind to survive so once they have the upper hand they run for survival, a game bred APBT on the other hand does it to destroy...


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Why do you think the origins of the breed gravitated from actually using bulls to testing against other dogs...


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I agree a lot with this statement, the biggest problem I’ve seen with using dogs from the box to hunt with that they shake bad once they have a bite, trying to disable their opponent instead of worrying about control, and I’ve seen it to many times they get so worked up that when they go into a bay they usually bounce off the hog and miss, this not always the case though, my best catchdogs were never my straight game bred dogs when I had them, I always found the most success with half to a quarter hot blood crossed over some cooler milder stock...


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Aren’t they culls then? Cus if you send a gamebred dogs that is bred for the pit then they catch a hog n not grab a dog then are they still game? If they are being bred for 100’s of years to fight other dogs then they are around a bunch of other dogs n don’t touch one of them then are they really a gamebred dog or are they just a number 2ty catch dog with a bunch of game breeding?


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I have been to bays where young bulldogs where sent in and get there and be caught on a dog. This is more on the handler not the dog. Most bulldogs that want to work will grab anything it’s focus is on. Take the pig out of there and your going to have a problem. But just because it don’t grab a dog don’t mean it won’t go into one. These dogs are smart they can’t be taught just bout anything.


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Not sure if it applies the same way to dogs that are bred for the pit... but the guy I hunt with trains dogs for a living and he has broken many from dog aggression just by getting them focused on pigs. I was with him on one hunt, he had a pit that was a few years old and real dog aggressive. It was the dogs first hunt and he jumped on my cur and my pit within about 30 minutes of us getting out of the truck (we walk hunt). After getting a real good talking to with the butt stock of a rifle he kept about 50 feet away from us, just following. We got on a few pigs that day and he never jumped on a dog again.


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I’m not sure if your missing the entire point or getting so caught up in trying to prove something wrong, it’s obvious you’ve never been around many APBT, they’re not some psycho crazy maul everything in sight type of dog, yes some individuals and strains tend to be a little on the hotter side but a well rounded well bred bulldog is smart and level headed, no that does not make them culls, just better suited for a different job, your wanting so bad to criticize the APBT, they’re not the best catchdog, no style is, they’re not the baddest dog on the planet, even Achilles and Sampson had their weak spots, they’re no better than a CD dog the size of a baby hippo or the size of a flea, they work better for some and not at all for others, they’re not any better than a dogo or American bulldog, some just prefer them, what separates them from any other breed and that is for what they were bred for, no other animal on the planet other than “game” fowl,  has been so stringently bred for one attribute than the APBT, not the dogo, not the American bulldog, although some are match quality, not anything, there’s gameness in all facets of life all around us, but please tell me any other breed of dog that has been created on the premise of gameness, nowhere in the black book of hog Doggery are you going to see that they’re solely the best nor the worst, some prefer them and some don’t, what separates them from other dogs is what the purpose of the origin and foundation that the breed was created for in the first place...

Well put Goose, I wanted to post but you pretty much said it.

Not trying to prove anything l. if u tell me that the dog is bred to be a game dog and it’s main purpose as you said is to be game and to be tested against other dogs and they don’t do that then what are they? A cull are they not? You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart? You know nothing of what type of dogs I have bin around or the type of foul either. You keep saying they were bred for the pit they are the best in the pit they are this and that but how can you say that when you are telling me dogs that don’t do what they were bred to do aren’t doing that at a bay? Yea I bin around gamedogs that don’t show no dog aggression then snap one day and want to kill every dog around them. They are game dogs bred for the pit and wanna do the job they were bred for or they are gamedogs that are culls but do good as hog dogs period you can’t have both.


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Just because you've never seen it with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and yes a good level headed dog knows when it's time to be about that business and when it's not needed, Ch. Kodiak lived his entire life with another male dog that was a rat terrier sleeping next to him in his house, even when he was in keep, and could be turned loose on the yard with supervision and there was never a yard accident, and whether you choose to believe me or not is on you I could careless, when I was a teenager I had a brindle street scatter bred male that I would take his collar off  to whatever, whenever, take him to the catch dog competitions we had on on the weekend and compete with him and yes send him to bays when I went hunting, one time he caught another dog and that his first and only time, and his first bay to ever go to, yes he was hot and you had to tie him back away from the other dogs, more as a precaution and a bay dog was never snagged  and he couldn't be put in a dog box with other dogs but knew the difference in what he was doing , why is it so hard for you to not believe that but have seen catch dogs that know when's it time to get down and not, no different than a professional MMA fighter getting along with the rest of civilized society,  you don't see a fullback knocking grandmas out the way at the mall for his wife, or a race horse steadily running in circles out in the paddock, yes APBT are that smart to know what their job is,are all like that,NO, a dog that doesn't do his job is a cull regardless of the type of work or breed of dog but just because they don't work out in one thing doesn't mean they won't click with something else and then there's those that don't at all, no I do not know your background and don't take it as an insult could careless to and this discussion has reached a dead end it seems, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, so to each his own, but YES you can have both...

Your right I haven’t seen it all the dogs I have seen were hot and couldn’t be around other dogs but glad to hear that u were around and there’s a legal way for the apbt to use its ability


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I can understand why you would think that way but I can tell you stories about champion game dogs you would not believe in regards to them turning on and off their dog aggression. Disclaimer this is rare but I have been told about it with other champions too.

Check this vid out and you will see what I am talking about  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSshsDC_lE

Dogs are smart!

I got this dog and two sisters double bred off Virgil. I wasn’t going for the Virgil blood as much as the blood in the sire’s side though....

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460452-semmes-cj (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460452-semmes-cj)

This is the sires ped. I was going for the grandsire cause I hunted with him and his owner quite some time and he was a heck of a catchdog. Just too old by the time I was ready to make the breeding so I bred to his son.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460455-ground-zero-kennels-junior-apbt (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460455-ground-zero-kennels-junior-apbt)

We just got a litter a few days ago off one of those sisters bred back to her half brother a full AB and double line bred on old AB

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1298215-hendersons-tank-of-semmes (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1298215-hendersons-tank-of-semmes)

Should read ‘my’ old AB. She was heck of a catchdog, conformation ch, had certified hips, a weightpull 3 title. Temperament and obedience trial titled as well out of a good healthy line... just a good all around dog. The dog I’ve focused on breeding around out of more than two fistfuls of AB’s

And shouldn’t read ‘double line bred’ should read either double bred or line bred. I was gonna put double bred but changed it to line bred cause that’s what I’m doing but didn’t delete enough words lol

I have some questions or food for thought.    How do we really test a catch dog against boar?     Do we release to a pig thats already surrounded and distracted by other dogs who will also pile on and get a hold when the catch dog hits.     Have the other dogs already ran the pig a good ways and got it worn down, hot, etc now in comes the catch dog that we again run in behind and try to help out asap?               Game pits I hear were faught for sometimes well over half an hour.    These men exercised these dogs very well.   The dogs were bred to produce better pups based on what, endurance, heart, tuffness/hardness and its ability to endure and win.   I'm sure many other things went into breeding these game pits together in order to produce a better game pit for the next generation.               Before the dog vs dog there was bear baiting and bull baiting.     How were the dogs tested then against those animals.     1 on 1 both fresh  or was it different?    How long was the dog tested and these two animals allowed to fight one another back then.   
             Is what we do today with pits using them as catch dogs sending them in to a boar that's already worn down and distracted by 5 other dogs who are often times going to get a hold also once the catch dog does, then us running in behind the catch dog.               In the pit, when dogs were faught against dog or against bear or bull, did the dog wear armor such as the protective vest we put on them today?
     Having to do all this for the catch dog and breeding one like this to another, does it really further the breed along and make them better performers against such an advasary as the boar?               
           What would be breeding for a better dog?   One that could hold a big boar 1 out for longer than other dogs.  One that only needed a collar for protection against the tusks of a boar rather than full body armor and rarely in its entire life ever got injured or hurt vs one that was cut up all the time and was wearing much much more protection?        One that has the size, structure, strength and endurance to hold 1 out for a long time and remain in controle of the situation for the entire time rather than a dog that just holds on and is a weight called an anchor, if the dog is even big enough to be considered an anchor and not just an ear ring.               A dog that commands controle of almost any situation.   The boar breaks, it has overwhelming speed against the boar and recaptures it instead of the prey being lost and in the hands of other dogs or to make good on its excape.   
            What is the better type and bred cd here for pigs.   One that's just hard but can't perform its duties without the help of other dogs, is cut down often, can't controle much and people feel like they need to run in behind the catch dog and take controle of the situation in order to keep injuries to a minimum?   Or is it a catch dog  that needs no other dog to help it in any way, holds for much longer and in far less protection and lives its life with very very few injuries and is ready for work day after day after day.   

For me, the catch dog that's best is the type catch dog that makes having all other dogs pointless and a cut kit something behind the back seat you have forgotten was even there.   Performs such duties  in all areas.  Woods, waters, swamps, feilds, sight work and nose work.    Plus is a pleasure to have at home running around loose in the house or yard and doesn't stink  or slobber

Good points to the effectiveness of a catch dog. I still prefer a bulldog for a catch dog. But those big tall long dogs you got can do the trick well. If your sole porpoise is to catch hogs I am all in. The vast majority of guys will stay with bay dogs and then a cd to send in. I think guys that run super rough dogs as my self under stand a little better about what your saying. There is no dog on the planet that can produce the type of injury that a big boar can to a dog in one hit and 3 seconds that’s why we use the gear. But I understand the size of those dogs keeps that down


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Thanks Judge,      I really wanted  just to promote thought and compare how tests and trials that proved dogs and were used in the development of the breed from decades ago and centuries ago is not at all at play here unless you were to just use the 1 dog from start to finish.       In that case a new dog would emerge similar to and most likely based off a breed that's origins and use have long been forgotten.   
    I hope dearly that the pit is never allowed to become forgotten or allowed to be bred down to nothing but a house dog.    Boar are not real tests for pits in my opinion because so much has to be done on their behalf by other dogs or by us.     Even the dogo was bred to work in packs and isn't suitable for running pigs down in the open or the woods. A dogo is not a stand alone dog no matter how you slice it or how high you price it.     
     Pits are my favorite dog breed because off their heart and hardness.    I just want and see a need for a better more effective and effecient 1 out dog than a pit can possibly be.    Can you use them as such, yes and yes i have and still on occasion do.  It's a huge reason I can sit here and explain the things I am and the differences between them and my style of dog
     

Wow yea dogs I have had the pleasure of being around we’re not that smart they were on any time there was a dog around people they would lick and we’re big babies but a rat terrier to a Dane they would want to go any where any time. I guess they were dumb lol


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Wasn't insinuating your dogs were dumb, just giving you an example of a Gr Ch who knew when to do what is all.

No I am saying my dogs were not that smart there was no on off switch they were always on and that’s why I would never own one for hog dogging


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Hyan TBH mine didn't really either, and I've owned a ton of them. I had some that were cool with pups but for the most part the line I bred would turn on real young and there was no turning back off, and most would have made awful catch dogs.

Thats why I think your most consistent chance with catch dogs are ones that 3+ generations removed from competition. Even then if you are breeding tight you will still prob get a high % of hot offspring. I've seen guys do real well with some of the OFRN blood and call them gamebred even though their ancestors have been absent from competition for over 30 years lol. Smartest dog of any breed I have ever owned was a Red Devil/Corvino bred bitch I got directly from the source. She was 55-56lb lean, rangy dog looked like a greyhound on steroids with a big head, and ooooweeee fast. I think she would have made a great catch dog but I was not hunting back then. She was my rabbit and ground squirrel dog as a young teenager.

IMO The average game bred APBT should never be left unsupervised...even the average APBT  can be a problem at times...cur dogs can be bad enough...but a well bred APBT once turned on...there will be something dying unless they exhaust themselves first trying to kill that something...and most of the time they will rest and then start back up again...I had a redbones APBT cross who was great friends with my wife’s miniature Westie...one day the big dog got out of his pen and was fighting through the fence with two other dogs and the two dogs in the pen eventually turned on each other...then the APBT cross turned on the westie and killed him...no one was home but the story was loud and clear...

I have seen a game bred take down a cow...and have come up on 4 or 5 common APBTs caught on cows at different times...and solo...

Many other stories in my mind I won’t talk about...IMO the right ones are the mightiest of the mighty...

Blackstreak is pretty much on the money, I don't like the loaded gun in my yard either.  Not saying I have not thought about 1,but the dogs I have bread do the job. I believe the pit in em is mild enough  for not having problems in the yard. Not saying they are 1 out dogs but I will pair em up with anything, and each 1 will try any hog ,not suicidal but not gonna give up. I posted about getting wrecked a while back,it happened again and I know why . For the first time I saw with my own eyes dogs had 1 caught and about 10' from legging him a bigger boar came from the next orchard row over and peeled all 5 of dogs off the 1 that was caught. I imagine that's what the first time same orchard same block....

I was given a pair of pups in late 2016 that are 1/2 pit, 1/4 AB, and 1/4 Staghound. They are 19 months old now. Both have become very nice catch dogs. The female is an athletic, 75lbs and looks like an athletic bulldog. The male is 95 lbs and looks like a greyhound on steroids. My catch rate has improved quite a bit with them. They get to bays fast and if a hog breaks, they will run them down. A hog has no chance to get away in open country. The thick brush slows them down just like any other dog. The size, wind, and athleticism comes in handy. They have brains and handle like a dream.
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I have hunted with some top shelf dogos, AB’s, and pits. There are good dogs in all of them. A pair of 40lb pits are hard to beat in the brush. The good AB’s have a very nice, controlling catch style. Probably the best option if you use a solo catch dog. The good dogos are like athletic AB’s that can run hogs down regularly and work well as a lead ins.


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   The dogo breed does not possess the speed needed to run down pigs.    If so we would be using them for crop dogs and 1 out finder holders.      Instead they are almost entirely sent to bays by people here in the US and even in South America they use acouple  what they call a barbarucho's (something similar to that word) to run the pigs down.     They use them in their packs of dogos they hunt.           It's crazy how it's only the bay dog man who hail the dogo as a dog that runs pigs down.    I can't count on 1 finger all the finder holder men or crop doggers who use dogos because of their phantom speed.   Why is this? Because they don't posses it.  Not even a good one!    A good fast dogo only has the speed to keep up with pressured crop pigs not catch them in the feild.        If you don't believe this to be true, I invite you to bring your dogo and I'll take you and a good dogo to do some crop work and you can tell everyone if this phantom speed a good dogo possesses is real or just your misunderstanding of the real speed needed to run pigs down on a regular basis in the open.      Catching a pig in the open thats not pressured that stands and fights or just lolly gags around is easy for any cd.    The speed needed for pressured pigs in the open is much more than the 3 common breeds used as lead ins posses.   I'll gladly prove it to anyone who thinks differently so they will stop speeding misinformation about dog breeds
       

Let me be clear, I’m not saying dogos are the fastest catch dogs in the world. I’m well aware there are faster breeds of catch dogs out there. My point was that the good ones I have seen had more speed and wind than the pits/ABs I have seen.
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I have watched a couple of dogs run down and catch hogs in pastures & fields consistently. I guess the hogs were slow and unpressured.
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I’m not spreading bad information about them. I’ve watched it with my own two eyes.
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BlackStreak - I will never post on another thread that you comment on. You consistently come on this site looking for an opportunity to push the positive attributes of your type of dog. You regularly make condescending remarks and act as if your a moderator on all things related to catch dogs and downing bay dog guys. Life is too short to have dialogue with people who lack tact or diplomacy.


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   Thanks, I'm pretty proud I'm not seen as tactful and diplomatic or politically correct to BS.    To many people come to this forum to search for understanding and knowledge.  I'm not here to add to the BS or half truths or talking points