EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

 Why do bmc's throw bobtail puppys. Were does this trait origanate from.

I am no expert, but I always had the opinion that in order for a true black mouth to throw Bob tails, there had to be some mountain curr in the back ground somewhere. I'm sure that is a recessive gene which means both parents would have to carry it in order to get it. That wouldn't be far fetched especially if you were breeding within the same family. Just my opinion of course.

 the fla dogs have bobtails in some lines . most others don't . i'm told the ones that do go back to a beavers crook dog .

That’ll put some hunt in them...

How come as soon as I saw mountain cur I know Reuben was going to say something hahahah


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Or could it be that Mt. Curs have some BMC in them lol...

It happens cause Bmc are such gritty badasses they occasionally bite each others tails off in the womb. All other breed it’s just a genetic defect. Bmc are only ones that are caused by pure grit


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If the wrights dogs are used as an example then I've always heard it came from the TLS Delight gyp, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure she was a tree dog and was added to the blood to make the dogs more "versatile", but y'all know how them "I heard" stories go...

Just to set the record straight, TLS Delight was a Florida bred cur cow dog that came from West Ft. Pierce, Fl. She came from the Adam's Ranch cow crew and was not a "Papered" dog. Never seen her, but have seen several Adam's bred dogs. As with most lines from Central/South Florida, several bob tailed dogs have been produced.  Last time I checked, there were no "mountains" in that part of the state ;)

Sometimes you can take the dog out of the mountains but you can't take the mountains out of the dog, lol. If I remember correctly, the Ben dog was a Florida dog before Randy got him. At least that's the story I was told.

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I would like to hunt behind a great BMC dog...if you have one of those please invite me so I can see it doing its thing...not a Florida cur and not an east Texas cur...but a true BMC dog that can do it all...

Years ago I hunted with one...his name was gold nugget... I hunted with that dog when he was 18 months old...he was dark reddish gold in color...black mask and black trim on ears about 60 pounds of well built dog...only thing that dog needed was to get his tail bobbed about 6” short...lol

He had been culled because he was rough on cows and a bay buster on hogs...I could have bought him for $325.00 and been wishing I had whenever I think about it...

A boat hog would be sitting on his jewelry to alleviate the pain...

He was a bay buster...true, but he would single on hog out and be nose to nose baying and the hog would have its back end backed up to a log or tree...I got there with the catch dog and both would catch...hog secured and he would roll over...always 3 loud chops when starting the track and a dead run...the prettiest mouth you ever heard on strike...and his bay bark could be heard a long ways and it was a beautiful chopping bark...when you was ready to go you’d better catch him first before catching the hog...even though he was a bay buster his plan was to catch them all one at a time...

This was almost 40 years ago...he came out of Tiboli, Texas, area is all I know about him...

The Ben dog you mention was bred and born in Muskogee Oklahoma out of a Jordan's Henry X Johnson's Ugly dog and a Phil Lines gyp both owned by Mike Baumen.

I only saw the Ben dog a couple of times. I don't remember exactly who told the the Florida story it's been about 100 years since I even saw Randy. It was told to me that he was too rough and was culled as a cow dog. Again that was hear say. I know for sure that Randy used him on cattle and hogs, that out of his own mouth. The Mt. Curr influence wasn't meant as insult. Fact is though, too many people see a yellow curr dog and automatically it's a black mouth. The black mouth registry is not an age old registry. One of the people that helped Randy Wright structure the registry his dogs are in was like a grandfather to me. MANY a dog conversation on the front porch was about history and breeding. I know that you have to start somewhere when you do something like the registry. You can have written pedigrees and first hand accounts of this one and that one, but if someone wanted to slip something in, it isn't far fetched that they could have. It may have been intentional and it may have been an honest mistake. Like my dad always taught me, once you breed something in good or bad, it's there forever.   People to this day still do it. There are registered pitbulls all over that are as much mastiff, or American, or whatever as they are pitbull. They are just one example. There are many others.

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Dont have to be mnts around just to have a dog with mnt in its breed name. Last i checked, this north america, yet there are a butt load of dogos here. What is your point about no mnts in fl?

It's a Florida and Texas pride thing, being as I'm in Louisiana and in the middle I like to stir the yella dog pot, but prefer a dog with spots lol...


(Disclaimer, Florida is my second home and one of my very best friends is a Texas yella dog enthusiast)

Lol, no harm goose. I thought it was funny myself. I'm personally a fan of spots, brindle, and black with brindle or tan trim so long as there's a splash of hound in there. Yella dogs are beautiful, I just as never able to get along with them. Again, put a little hound in there and it makes all the difference for my liking. I know that's off subject sorry. I remember Randy had a Bob tailed dog on his yard once when I was there. It was a nice looking young male dog. I wish I could remember what he told me the dog was out of. It's been 30 years ago nearly, I must be getting old.

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Although it is fairly obvious to some, you'd have to be from, where I am from,(around and below Lake Okeechobee) to fully get my "point" ;D

No harm taken t-dog, I was just ribbing with the yella dog men, I know some who will get plum beside themselves and act all foolish if you insinuate that something besides a "cur" is in their curs, I just laugh at the magnitude of their ignorance because they themselves don't know the actual definition of a "cur" nor the history of working dogs and their developments.......

There was no known Mt Cur in the Ben dog, they did however breed some Beavers Crook in them (he produced stub and bob tailed dogs). I know John Gay sold them a Beavers Crook dog and it was rumored that Randy may have bought a female or two from JE Beavers. Don't know anything one way or the other about TLS Delight.

It was suspected that the Crook dog was part Mt Cur but to my knowledge no one knew for sure. Ben Jordan bred a female to him that was on loan to him from Ricky Driver and raised a litter of nice using dogs but being bob tailed and sort of gimblin butted everybody sort of bred away from them in this country.

I have tried 6 registered Ben dogs out from 3 different hog hunters or cowboys from Texas to Ga and Fl. 2 I raised from pups 4 I bought as young started dogs at 8-12 months all were culls.Overpriced papered Culls.These dogs were all out of working stock with blah blah blah percentage of this and that.0 out of 6 being even usable dogs to me is a pretty low percentage.Maybe I shoulda tried one with a bob tail lol.I'm sure there are great ones out there but I reckon you gotta be the one breeding them to get em just like any other line.

Yeah I don't mean to insinuate ben had Mt. Curr in him. I tried a few Ben bred dogs and  didn't have much luck. I took them all back and wound up with a dog that he had gotten directly from John Gay. He told me that he wanted to use that blood to breed more hunt back into his stuff. This dog would sure enough go. From the first time I took him he hit the ground with his feet on fire. We would catch hog after hog and he was never at a single bay. We'd be done and call and call and he'd never show, this was before I had a tracking system. I would leave a shirt and come back in a couple hours and he would be there with it and completely spent. So the last time I hunted him, we were done and sitting at the truck talking and we hear yip yip, yip yip coming towards us. There was an old abandoned barb wire fence about 20 yards from us and the top wire was only about 8 or 10 inches off the ground. We hear brush cracking and the tipping is very close. All of a sudden a doe comes out of the brush dragging her tongue. It was all she could do to get over that barb wire. I ran over to where she came out and out came the dog. I didn't even whoop him. I knew right then that he wasn't for me. He was fixing to catch tha doe. She didn't have 5 minutes left in her. If he was that serious about deer I didn't want to fool with trying to break him. He wasn't my physical type either. Shorter leg, long bodied and a thicker build. He was a good natured dog but not for me. That's where I stopped trying registered black mouths right then. I hunted with an old gyp up in Jacksonville that was really nice. Poor or mud fat, cut up or healthy she was the same hard hunting stay hooked, hog minded dog every trip and she had a good mind and disposition. I think the best yella dog I've ever hunted with. Her brothers and sisters were all nice dogs. Some on hogs some on cows. There are good ones and bad ones in every color or breed, long or short tailed.

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thats true t dog , the difference is some cull the junk and are honest about the rest of them . their word is good and you don't need a written money back garantee  thats only good for laying under a caged parekeets ass  ;)


  lets start a new line on this thread .

anybody know why the black with yaller trim dogs crop up every once in awhile ?

oh and i figure if a dog can run that much gas out of a deer it ought to be able to hang with a bad running hog ... if you could break him off trash  ;D


most wouldn't want one with that much bottom .

I liked his bottom but the best I could tell he hit the ground with deer on the brain. He didn't have enough positives for  me to want to fool with breaking him off of the deer.

The black with yella trim is Mt. Curr influence lol

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That black with yellow trim is from the black and tan coloring in the leopard blood back in there most likely. No joke just fact haha.

I hunted behind a whole pack of Ben bred dogs and I was trying to keep from stumbling over them...I witnessed the same scenario in east Texas with 5 or six out of some registered bloodline from Oklahoma...lots of fresh hog footings and the dogs were running up and down right of ways...after about 20 minutes I turned out a 10 month old pup and in one hour we had 4 caught...they turned out to be decent me too dogs...but I don’t care for me too dogs unless they can shut down a runner quickly...then maybe one is all I  would need...

Here is the thing...when we cast a dog and he comes back or moves on I want to feel confident there ain’t no hogs around and it is time to move on...I don’t want to have to put a dog on top of a hog for him to find one...

Amazing how much influence that old leopard blood has had in both Texas and Florida bred dogs.  I believe that bob tail gene in our dogs, is directly related to either the leopard blood or the old bulldog blood, or a cross of the two.  Lot's of leopard color patterns in our dogs for a reason  ;)

Say it ain't so lol, all jokes aside I got kicked out of and banned from a BMC group because I posted a picture that Cward had shared on here or FB at one time and I took a screen shot of and if I'm not mistaken it was a spotted up dog with a young sheriff woodruff and was one of the founding dogs for the woodruff line of yella BMC and it was as spotted as a leopard, now I'm not making that statement here and wasn't in that group and was just asking out of curiosity...

Do you know any of that story?

And last this is a question I've always asked myself and have came up with a few logical answers, this question is directed at Clue alone but to any BMC historians...

Why was the yellow dogs with black mask developed for?

I know yo work stock but I'd like a an answer on those colors if some of them go back to leopard hounds and curs...

I posted that picture of Lewis Woodruff at 21 with two leopard dogs. Breeding for color is a fairly recent trend in cur stock dogs. In the old days, when you had to have dogs to gather your stock out of the big woods, getting the job done was important and color didn't matter. Those men were of the opinion that if they got the job done where they used them, they were the right size,  if they held up to hard use day after day, they were made right and color alone didn't help make a living. My dogs go back to Woodruff dogs that were black, black and tan. and yellow that were bred to some spotted dogs. They are heavy line bred and they all come yellow except for a blue tinted one now and then, which blue is a dilute of black. Pure dose not exist in cur stock dogs of any color and the Wright dogs go back to Woodruff dogs.
 

 Ruben, you are invited to come hunt with some yellow dogs, not great dogs just hog dogs. Bring the best dog you have or can borrow and come make a round. Be sure to bring a mountain cur.
    I have never seen a mountain cur I would feed. I have only seen one leopard dog I would feed. I have seen many truck loads of yellow dogs I would not feed because I have hunted with hundreds of them.

Maybe it was you bigo, it's been several years ago if not a little longer since I saw it and that's about how I was thinking the color yella became so dominant, they were the ones that worked and bred around and they just so happened to be yella, unlike today where most of the folks who own them have them because they are a fad and less folks actually breeding using and working dogs...

Bigo I'd like to see some of your dogs if you have any pics. I'm not a real big fan of "straight" cur of any kind. I like them all if there's a splash of hound in them. I say that because we live in Texas. I have been in the woods with a BUNCH of different types and when it's Texas hot and hard to find a hog, the ones that hunted just as hard and had just as much bottom and just as much fire inside them then as they did when it was cool, had hound in them. That being said I know 100% that there are good  ones that aren't of any hound decent, at least not for a loooong way back, that get it done right anytime and place. I have hunted with a few. The problem I saw was consistency or lack of. For me inconsistency is one of the greatest flaws an individual dog, a strain, or family can have. Do you notice any difference in your family of dogs in different seasons? Again, I'm not trying to bash anyone's dogs. Most people probably wouldn't feed my pot lickers.

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They don't go back to Leopard Hounds, when I say Leopard I mean what is now called Catahoulas before the bay pen and color breeding fad. As far as the yellow dogs I would say it was a case of pretty is as pretty does, whatever crosses began to produce Yellow and yellow black muzzled dogs was well thought of therefore somewhat sought after. As for myself I have never worried about what made them up I was just glad to have stumbled on some I could get along with and concentrated on the ancestors I believed to have produced the traits I liked. With this pattern of thought I haven't really researched their original origin nearly as thoroughly as Bob has he would know far more about the original origins.

P.S. ----They were bred for cattle and hogs no "log walkers" among them. There are some well known strains that are promoted as tree dogs, as well but not in the background of the strain I am familiar with. 

My experience with yella BMC dogs has been interesting. The ones I have hunted with have either been outstanding or flat duds. The dog in these pics was the most talented dog I have witnessed to date. He was quirky as hell but had ability and talent to spare as far as finding, baying, and relaying to the next hog. He made it look easy. Did his best work alone and had a front end style and stock sense about him that was special. He trail or wind. Has a nice mouth. Would not put a tooth on a hog. Longer you hunted, the stronger he got. About the time I realized what I had, i put him up and I got a well bred gyp pup from the right line of dogs to breed him to. While I was waiting on her to grow up, I lost him to a bulldog in a kennel accident. Makes me sick to this day that I didn’t get pups off him.


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He was a purdy son of a gun shotgun. Wish you had gotten something back out of him.

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Thanks T Dog. He was one of the few yella dogs I’ve hunted with that performed better than he looked. Their beauty is probably their curse. I’m 43 years old. Been following dogs around since I was 5 years old. I have never bred a litter. I’ve weaned, raised, hunted and handled a bunch of em but never made s breeding decision. He had me ready to start my breeding career. I had the right female from the right line too. Life goes on. I’ve got a brother to the gyp that’s making me think about it!


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Get that rascal collected before something does happen. He has a hazardous occupation lol. I wish luck with him.

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t-dog, those dogs that are hard hunting, cold nosed find dogs, anytime anywhere any weather are hard to come by. No one produces those kind consistently and most don't ever produce any. I was fortunate to come across some that would produce a few along, just had to sort through them. I love it when them young guys, in heat advisory weather, go to begging to catch those dogs. So to answer your question, they weren't consistent, because a lot more didn't come that way as did. The ones that did could run tracks a lot of hounds couldn't line out or open on, sling some hounds out of races, be bayed awhile before hounds could trail to them, stay bayed all day and all night, get hurt bad and stay hooked. Man I wish they would all do that, but they don't. If I can get my grandkids to help, I will post some pictures.
    What I said about dogs I would not feed, was dogs I've seen and hunted with and I have not seen or hunted with them all. I have seen a lot more sorry yellow dogs because I have seen and hunted with way more of them.
 

Bigo ...you are right about many sorry Mt curs out there...finding good ones are hard to find...I paid some good money for three or 4 in last couple of years which includes 5 plotts...

I am a hard man to please...I have one Mt cur pup all others I have have Mt cur in them but not purebred...

I see BMC like is see Polaris...ford trucks to dodge trucks...

For to keep a pup to make a good hog dog it needs have Mt cur Mt cur or some hound in it...I have owned quite a few Mt curs over the years I would gladly put on the ground with anyone’s best dogs...and I suspect they had Walker in them but they were registered but I don’t spend money on registering dogs...

Yes sir...I appreciate the invite and would like to go with you but it probably needs to be in the fall... I will pm you...and I will bring a few of my own... thanks again for the invite...I am looking forward to it...

Bigo, I agree with most of what you said there. It was worded really well. The catch those dogs statement brings memories flooding back lol. My question is, when you yourself are breeding, how big a staple is that hard weather hunter when you are making a breeding. I guess what I mean is are you breeding for that consistent hard weather hunter or is that not as big a deal for you? Everyone has a standard and a goal when making a breeding, or at least they should. Myself I have certain things a dog has to have no exceptions, before it's considered. For me, right off the top is what caliber are that dogs litter mates. If his litter didnt produce what I felt was a enough good dogs, then no matter how good that dog is, I won't use it for breeding.  To me that's how you raise your percentage of what your striving for.

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Hot, cold, wet or dry at home or away from home, I expect find dogs that go hunting and find, bay and stay. I won't tolerate quitters or me too dogs. I won't keep a dog I wouldn't breed unless its a catch dog. I will say this, being that picky can get you in trouble keeping a line going. I've been told , you can cull yourself out of a breeding program and if it hadn't been for the Old Man, I would have. He has the same family of dogs as I do and is a much better breeder than I. I was worried more about hunting than breeding.

I agree whole heartedly with that. I myself have been in a tight corner a time or two because of that myself. It has worked out pretty good for me though. Hope I keep getting lucky. I still would love to see your dogs when or if you get a chance. Now that you pointed out that you and the Old Man have the same family. I'd like to see his too. WOW just got here last night. Different people raising the  same family of dogs is something we were talking about just this morning.

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X2 on seeing some good bmc’s at work... I know good cow dog stock have excellent working style...in my mind when combining those traits with excellent hunting traits then the dogs should really be outstanding...