EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

For those of you who line breed your dogs, how tight do you get before you outcross? I have a litter due in about a week that in my opinion is bred pretty tight. If they don’t come out with two heads, three tails, six legs and dumb as a rock... it may be time to outcross down the road.

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Was the poncho dog any Kin to them

No sir... he’s the only branch on the tree haha.

Too tight is when it quits working.

How similar are the hunter and molly dogs to each other?  How similar is poncho to the dogs you bred him into? I'm with bigo, on his theory, it's too tight when it quits working.

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What Bigo said. When your dogs start reverting back to average or not quite up to Par, Time for a outcross.

Smaller litters...smaller dogs...smaller cahones...those are signs...

Keep it safe...if someone already has a really good young dog that has your blood on one side and the other side is not related but a lot like your dogs and he and his littermates were fairly uniform then that would be a green light to go forward with it...if the pups act and look right then more than likely it will be a good cross...

The hard part in my opinion is when your dogs are about the way you like them and you feel it is time to bring in new blood...

The proof is in the puddin, if the puddin is still good the recipe is still good haha.

Following


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So far the recipe is still good... this litter should tell the tale.

Reuben, there’s several 25-50% related dogs out there that I can cross back to. That would be my plan when I do... I don’t think I’ll ever make a 100% outcross.

T-dog, I don’t know anything about the Pancho dog. The Pancho/ Brandy cross was made back in 2008 by a friend of mine who owned Brandy. Pancho was a 3/4 cur 1/4 plott that was from out west in the Davis Mountains. The 5 pups that we raised all made good dogs... Hunter being one of the best ever out of these dogs in my opinion. It’s hard to compare Hunter and Molly, they were littermates, but she was ran over and crippled at a young age. She is a producer and has been passed around over the years as a brood gyp and produced good dogs no matter what she was bred to. When Jameson up in Oklahoma ended up with her, we bred her twice to my old Jase dog, a Hunter son, with the majority of each litter making good dogs.

Mike, what are your dogs bred from? Is the Cur side black mouths? Are you dogs silent, or open? Loose, or rough?

Seems like you have an awesome breeding program in place


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Austesus, all my dogs go back to the Tweety/Winchester cross. Tweety was a black catahoula gyp out of cow dog stock from Louisiana. Winchester was a brindle cur dog from some local East Texas blood here around Coldspring. I breed more to the Tweety side... which is the reason for the mother/son cross on her and Obama. All the Tweety/Winchester pups were Tweety clones in every way. This coming litter will go back to her 7 times, which is the direction I’ve been slowing heading towards for the past 10 years.

Sounds like the right plan to me. This good producers are rare. When you find one you gotta do just what you're doing in my opinion.

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That’s awesome Mike. What was your reason for going back to tweety primarily instead of Winchester? Was she a better dog, just had different traits you wanted, etc..?


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My Little Girl dog is to me what Tweety was to you, and is the catalyst of the future of my breeding program...

Mike I hope you don't mind, I entered this pedigree into my software on my laptop out of curiosity, it only goes back 4 generations, so without the tweety/Winchester blood being factored in the COI (coefficient of inbreeding) is 26.5625%.

The COR, which is "coefficient of relationship" for tweety alone is 38.8889% without figuring in the tweety/ Winchester cross behind Obama...


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Hopefully you can see these, definitely going to have to zoom in...

What software is that goose?


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So if it went back another generation, I’m assuming the COI would be a lot higher? From what I’ve read, 25% or higher is pretty tight.

From what I understand about the COI's which isn't much you'd be even tighter, maybe if there's someone on here that has a good understanding about them will chime in...

HAS ANYBODY DONE HALF BROTHER HALF SISTER CROSS ? IF SO HOW DID IT TURN OUT.

It's been done quite a bit, it's a common cross when trying to line breed, as long as the common ancestor is the type of dog that meets your standards, because your doubling up on the good and bad that he or she possesses, I just attempted a full brother and sister cross, I'm not sure if she took or not, my main reason was to get more dogs like the parents and they are f1 crosses themselves so there wasn't anything related to them to go back to without giving up the traits either side  of the cross brings to the table brings to the table...

I think your good since Winchester, tweety, and pancho are un related dogs you should be fine for some time. Personal opinion.


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I would agree, gives you a pretty big pool of genes to work with.

I spoke to an old cat hunter who breeds his own dogs. He doesn't breed outside of his family, he doesn't care about relation other than his one rule of not breeding full brother to full sister. Other than that he doesn't consider relation in his breeding decision. He only looks at what dogs have and what they are lacking and breeds them accordingly. I'm not saying it is right or the only way to go but it worked for him and has been for some time.

He said the same thing when I asked him if he will outcross and he said, he will not outcross until the dogs start going in the wrong direction.

I have a friend that is one of the top greyhound people in the country. We were talking about breeding dogs and I asked what his approach was. He chuckled and said, I breed whatever is winning at the time. If there is a particular cross that is really producing then he will make that cross as well. He said it's usually a best to best thing. He said the winningest breeder in greyhound history line bred 3 generations then made an out cross. The out cross was selected by whatever weakness he felt the lie bred dogs possessed. If he thought them well rounded then he chose an out cross with the most likeness. This worked for him for a long time.

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I have a dog from a half brother sister breeding that is the best producing dog I have ever owned, male or female. He produces a very high percentage of top quality pups from what ever he is bred to. They have all been better than the female. The breeding that produced him, was to double up on Clue Andersons Cowboy dog. He was one of the best producing, preforming, and looking dogs I've ever seen and I believe line breeding him will produce some of the best dogs this line ever had.

GOOSE I HAVE DONE THREE NOW AND NOT HAPPY WITH PERCENT OF PUPS TURNING OUT. I HAVE ONLY  ONE OR TWO THAT MAKE THE CUT .IS THAT HOW IT IS WITH THIS CROSS . THE ONE OR TWO THAT MAKE IT ARE REALLY NICE.

 I neglected to add that the mother to the sire was a Ben Jordan female line bred to the same dogs as Clues and mine. The mother to the dam of my dog was line bred to the same dogs bred by me. Just some different outcrosses along the way, by each breeder, but always to proven lines of stock dogs.

What caliber of dog was the common ancestor that your doubling up on?

A dominant stud is special. I like line breeding myself. The only cross I have done that i didn't care for was the mother son cross. I was told to avoid that cross by an old timer and 3 times I ignored it and 3 times it was disastrous. There won't be a 4th lol.

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Any particular reason why he doesn't do a full sibling cross, I'm hoping to have some pups on the ground before long out of such cross, my main reason behind was to get some more of that genetic material to work with, if something happens to either parent it sets me back the 4 years I have invested in them, I don't plan on repeating it again if I can get a litter this time, I'll have more avenues I'll be able to go down instead of a two way street...

One thing to keep in mind on linebreeding is there are things that happen that you don't see. I had a gyp that was brother/sister for 2 generations and her immune system was very weak. They couldn't count titers in her bloodwork. She died at 7. I am a believer in linebreeding but I am a firm believer in an outcross once in a while. As others have said you also can get smaller litters smaller dogs and immune system issues. I don't believe that you are anywhere near that Mike.

It's looking like Mother Nature intervened and she never got bred, I mounted my male to her once and he missed his shot and knotted up outside, so I put him in his chain and just put him in the pen the next day and left them for the rest of heat, she should be springing hard now but isn't showing any signs of it, I guess they knew something I didn't, the sire to these two is HEAVY line bred to begin with, should've went with my gut instead of logic and bred her to my Smutt male this time like I had planned on her next litter...

I believe it's called pedigree explorer, great friend of mine has it and uses it and bought the hardware disc and I took my laptop over there and we downloaded it on mine, I absolutely love it, I believe there's more up to date versions out there now, I've had mine about 5 years or so now...

That is a good way...when the dogs look right and hunt right you need to do all you can to keep it that way and improve on it when you can...improving does not mean going outside the line...it means picking the best from within the line of dogs to hunt and breed...the proof is in all the pigs you are catching...

Outcrossing can be for improvement in any area...but in your case it is more to rejuvenate the vigor before it drops off...at least that is what it seems to me...

GOOSE SHE IS A NICE DOG HUNT OUT MILE NO SIGN. ALWAYS FINDING HOGS . I BRED HER TO THREE DIFFERENT MALES TWO WHERE BROTHERS. OUT OF TEN PUPS EIGHT WOULD MAKE NICE DOGS IN EACH LITTER. THE OLD MAN I WAS TALKING TO PASSED HE DIDNT GET TO TELL ME  WHAT PERCENT IN THAT CROSS WOULD TURN OUT . WISH I COULD ASK HIM THAT . 

I didn't ask him the reason, I assumed to keep the pool of genes going longer without having to outcross. But as previously stated it was an assumption.

An old gamedog man talk to me about that cross once too. He said if you really want to see where your family of dogs is at, good and bad do a full brother/sister cross. This was a well known gamedog man back in his time.

It's always been  explained to me that once you've been line breeding for several  generations and you get to that point where the negatives really start to surface and your percentages drop off, then back up to the last breeding that produced a dog that was what you were looking for. If there was a pair that fit the bill then breed them together. If there is only one then make the breeding again in hopes of getting the opposite sex of the one you already have. In doing this you "set" the gene. If you haven't reached your desired outcome then it's time to make an out cross that will hopefully improve the short comings you are seeing.

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You’ll be good like everyone above mentioned. Good luck with them.

I know where some more 25% blooded ones are if you ever run out. They are all pretty nice dogs in that whole litter.

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The gyp is on the left and the two males are blaze faced and on the left side of the next box. You need to go make a hunt with them sometime.


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GOOSE   GIVE ME A CALL ONE NITE I WOULD LIKE TO PICK YOUR BRAIN ON BREEDING . 903 790 0102   THE MAN I TALKED TO PASSED AWAY

I have many curs,  (even dogos) who are great dogs father daughter tight from tight bred dogs. I go out after that bc the dogs i have that tight loose some size. Always try to out cross to another line bred dog to keep the traits but keep all the rest. One FYI I had a dutch shepherd who was a stud that was out of a littermate breeding, but the parents were not from tight bred dogs.

Anyone else had trouble breeding son back to mama? Made a cross like this a few years ago. Pups met all expectations in regard to hunting, but had one with a terrible immune system that got sick and died at about 15 months and two others in the litter that were just poor-doers (fed well and had wormer running out of their ears but always looked underweight and had rough hair coats). I've been told that a mother-son cross is harder on the gene pool than a father-daughter cross, aka more likely to have unwanted effects.

I know that unwanted health effects happen in line breeding and breeding dogs in general. To rephrase my question, are certain crosses (such as breeding a son back to his mother) more likely to bring out health defects? Its also worth noting that the gyp was line bred. Dont know exactly how tight.

cant say ive done son to mom, but have done several daughter to father no problem, dogs lived long healthy life. That said there is a difference in F1 vs F2,3... crosses going this tight. Culling hard in F1 crosses that tight is normal but needed much less F2 out. Basically at the first tight cross all the good and bad rise to the surface and once you cull that out the good is much more concentrated making for significant less culling. Lots of easy to understand books on this in the Lab world, I really like Dr Long from Texas A&M's research articles on line breeding, plus hes been doing it with BMC's not labs but same concept

I got four pups on the ground now off of a mother to son cross, the mother is my Shiloh female and she's has no line breeding behind her, I took her to a very tight bred running walker male, I raised my Ben dog off this litter and bred him back to his mother to tighten up their baying, so far the pups are the walking definition of fat and happy, one thing we all have to take into consideration is that not all families and lines of dogs breed the same way so one mans horror story maybe another mans success story using the same breeding techniques but with different families of dogs...

Dr. Long is a personal friend of one of my very best and dearest friends, and he has sent him several dogs over the years, can you post the links to some of the articles you've read and share them with us...