EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

Mike started a good thread and it brought up many different thought processes on when to breed in new blood...this is about breeding dogs but in starting out anew and creating a new bloodline...Mike is way past that point...

IMO...

The first thing...to know what a good hunting dog is...

it is important we like the dogs as to how they look and hunt...hunt includes striking ability, bay style, track speed and sticking with the track as long as it takes to bring the hog to bay...if there is fresh sign the dog should find the hog quickly...some dogs take a little while working out a feeder track and some cut and slash and find the hot end quickly...others call it drifting on the track...these are things we must consider when looking for the right dogs...all the above mentioned equals to intelligence and good genetics...we all want dogs that make it look easy...

Second thing is to find the dogs to hunt and and prove as legitimate hog dogs...a plus is using dogs from the best lines available...most hog doggers won’t share their bloodlines...some will sell good quality pups...buying grown dogs usually means buying someone else’s culls...

Once we decide which pair to breed then we worm the female and make sure she is up to date on vaccinations...the breeder should do all things possible in choosing the best pups to hunt and to breed once they have proven themselves...we do this by keeping as many pups as possible and sell and or give them away as we make decisions on who is making the cut and who is not...early on we turn over the generations...we do this to purify or to clean the gene pool...

Early on we can be more forgiving in what we keep because we are in the process of cleaning up the gene pool...the further we are generation wise in the breeding program we should be raising the bar on what a keeper is...for me it is selecting for natural ability and consistency...this is done starting at a very young age...looking for natural inclinations through testing and observation...

Breeding for natural ability is the best way in my opinion...
Years ago way before the internet I read any article I could find about dogs...and two articles I read took me to a different level of thinking...but like anything else I created my own versions...

There was an article written about breeding and testing puppies and dogs in some European Country...these guys had an over the top kind of testing and breeding program that I couldn’t agree with on account it was too stringent...to have a dog eligible for breeding it had to pass some high level testing and earn degrees..a mixture of obstacle and hunting tests...a new born litter was inspected by a dog warden who did these inspections in a general area...he culled any pups that were not uniform in size or if the color was off...this was right after birth...also included culling down to eight pups on account the mother couldn’t properly feed more than eight pups...a little later, if I remember correctly the warden culled down to six pups...this way the pups could be fed correctly by the dam...the result...pups that were uniform in type...

Awesome thread Reuben, I will be following this one closely.


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For me testing for natural ability is a very high priority...usually by eight weeks old I will know who winds naturally...you can have 4 dogs in your buggy and all 4 will blow up when they wind a hog or a hot track...and we say we have winding or rig dogs...that’s not the type I am talking about...the same four dogs in the buggy...and only one dog yips a time or two and wants out...or he picks his nose up in the wind and acts interested...that is the dog I am looking for in the puppy litter...

Finding...scatter some liver tidbits in the grass and turn the pups out and you will see over a period of time who finds more...chances are he will be your best find dog one day...

There are more tests that can be done...very informal and very simple...does it mean that another pup cannot be better...no...but what matters is that we do all we can to select the best for hunting and breeding...over generations we are gravitating towards a high percentage of the best...the proof will be in the woods...

Thanks

At the beginning we can breed a few different type dogs to get tighter mouths or a certain size or whatever we think we need in reaching our goals...but at some point we should see what we like and go forward with the plan...

Again “in my opinion “ we do not use the first dogs as our hubs for breedings...they are stepping stones towards a purification...meaning cleaning up the gene pool...after 3 generations of what we consider the best we can select one stud dog to breed most of the time when he proves himself in the breeding pen...I consider the female just as important as the male and more so for other reasons...that is why I believe the female should be bred very few times until about the 4th or 5th generations...because she needs to be turned over for the next generation female to be bred...this turn over rate further purify’s the gene pool...what we should be breeding for is in producing a very high percentage of pups that will be above average hunting dogs...dogs that can reproduce themselves in the breeding pen...

Reuben, when you say the female should be bred very few times until the 4th or 5th generations, can you further explain this? I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say she needs to be turned over for the next generation female to be bred


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No problem...my logic was telling that the bloodline was not where it needed to be...too close to scatterbred dogs even though the dogs used were of some good dogs and a few I didn’t like...so I realized that I needed to breed away from the negatives...so as soon as a female proved to be what I liked and I bred her most all in their first heat cycle...so I had 5 generations of top quality females in the pedigree...which would increase the chances of getting good dogs per litter...I called it purifying the bloodline...

So are you saying you would breed during the first heat cycle (the dog bring young) several times in a row to speed the process up?


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When you say that, are you line breeding off that same female?


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Most folks frown on breeding the female in her first heat cycle...it does not bother me in the least...I bred her only once and then breed he daughter once and then the granddaughter once and then great granddaughter...

Many breeders are on the third and maybe fourth generation in a 20 year span...I wanted that in 5 years...and should be having better dogs each generation until we are in a good place...

Many breeders have their own methods...this is the method I believe in...

So you’re using the same male and each time you are using a female that keeps stepping down a generation?


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Most of the time that is how I did it and once a son and a half brother...

I did a total outcross once and never used the only pup I kept even though he was a pretty good dog...

So your breeding away from the foundation stock, the female in particular, instead of around them/her?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to grasp your logic...

I have some reservations about breeding gyps that young. I don't know if I have ever owned a gyp that I knew enough about at that age to breed on the first heat.

Goose...used three females and off of those I bred daughters and granddaughters...

Way out...the females I bred on first heard were females that showed that they were going to make top dogs...and they were...

Here is something else to consider...some breeds or strains will mature slowly and the females mature going into the second heat cycles...so if you have that type of dog then obviously the first heat cycle won’t work...same with testing 8 and 10 week old pups...some can be tested and maybe some bloodlines and or breeds might be to young...but I haven’t had that problem...there is always something to look at...

Starting out with the best possible dogs is very important...
Breeding the right hunting dogs and creating a strain is very important...
Testing and keeping the very best pups and proving them to meet a minimum standard is very important...making a mistake here is a setback...

I am wondering if anyone else followed a system similar to what I mapped out...it worked out really well for me...

So if you were breeding females on the first heat, what's the youngest gyp you've ever bred?

I don’t have exact numbers on account that varies as to when they come in...I would say between 10 months and a year old and did this until I felt like my dogs were breeding true...the dogs I had in those years showed me what I needed to see by that age...

the second article I read...at first it was pretty unbelievable to me but I kept reading by time I got to the end of the article I could see it made a lot of sense...

the writer was talking about unborn puppies and the mother to the pups...he was saying that in life there are many chemical reactions taking place in many things...like when you smoke a cigarette you inhale the smoke and the blood going through the lungs will pick up the oxygen to feed all our cells and when exhaling we exhale mainly CO2...in that transition where the lungs pick up the O2 it also picks up the nicotine and sends throughout our cells as well and we get that natural high...we know there are other things that happen and some probably have not been discovered even now with the technology we have today...he gave other examples but I am just using what I can best remember...he used the above comments before explaining his theory per the following paragraph...

he said...so why can't the female pass on certain traits to the puppies that are not from genetic inheritance...but from the things that she has experienced while pregnant...he says...if the female is hunted during gestation and she gets highly excited on a coon track...she is getting excited because one, she is a coon dog and it is in her genes...but she is inhaling this coon scent and he is barking with excitement and when inhaling the coon scent particles are going into her lungs...the blood going through the lungs then transport the particles throughout her body as well as the adrenaline and who knows what else...the puppies are connected to the mother and they are getting what she is getting...as they get closer to the 63 days to delivery they can feel vibrations and the excitement that the female exhibits or creates...

that was many years ago and I believe this man was way ahead of his time and he still is because many folks don't believe in this thought process...but there are more and more scientist getting in on this line of thinking and research...new ideas and solid theories are being proposed...and findings...the biggest thing I believe is environment...what they eat in there environment, how they are treated , boundaries given...training scenarios...etc...

so there are things we can do to improve the quality of puppies before they are born and while at a very early age...

there is more I am leaving out but the scientist are finding out more as they do the research...they are also looking for ways to train the human body to cure itself by the findings they are making...

none of this is new...it is the understanding of this concept that will take us to the next level...

Reuben please cite your sources other than your own speculations, I know your thinking I'm picking on you again and again I'm NOT, I'm just trying to make sense of your yearly "breeding better dogs" rants here in ETHD, because most of what you say and speculate contradicts most modern breeding practices, I could be wrong but it sure seems that every year when you make your breeding post all you do is repeat yourself, I've looked into most of what you said and even consulted with full time breeders and even some geneticist from the university of Florida about what you claim, not to be able to get on here and try and prove you wrong and debate back and forth on here but because of sincere legitimate curiosity on my on end because I'm one of the most open minded individuals you'll ever interact with, Reuben folks have been selectively breeding working dogs for hundred of years and everything you've mentioned in all your post has already been tried, if there were any merit to any of it then it would be common practice on just about every successful breeders yards in just about every discipline of dog working, I may not be grasping the concept here so please explain how we can and are going to take dog breeding to the next level by what we feed a pregnant female and she's exposed to during her pregnancy, if there were any concrete hard proof that this was the slightest bit true then we would already have superior dogs and superior humans, I do believe that the quality of the females diet can have an impact on the neurological and physical development of the fetus, and some forms of stimulation during gestation will have an impact on the unborn but nowhere on the scale of what I'm understanding your thoughts on this are, how are you going to improve a dogs genetics and DNA through diet and gestational exposures, before you throw epigenetics out there again please cite your sources on the claims you make it about epigenetics and not what you think or speculates going to happen that modern scientist and biologist haven't figured out, what exactly are these next level breeding dogs going to have that we don't already have, what is going to be improved on so much that the world is going to taken back by its discovery, if your having to go to the lengths to attempt this then I would evaluate the breeding stock because there's already dogs out there that possess all the traits needed to catch whatever game wherever in the world again I'm not here trying to prove you wrong, just trying to understand...

This question is for hog hunters with over 10 years experience. How many years in the field does it take for a catch dog to be proven? the reason I ask is a man could have litters that are not worth kibble if a dog was to quit with this school of thinking. I might be in the minority but if I can help it I don't want anything with a dog that doesn't do the work in the pedigree if I can avoid it.

I don’t have anywhere near that amount of experience, only about 2 years. But the man that mentored me in this sport is mid 50’s and has been working dogs and training them for a living his whole life. What he told me is that a catch dog is not truly proven until it’s been cut down and almost died. After that, you know what you have. I’m probably one of the youngest guys on here, but what he said makes sense to me and what I’ve seen validates it.


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a catch dog is proven only after he has done his job on 100's of hogs and I say 100's because 90% of people only catch maybe 5 out of 100 truly rank hogs. A catch dog that only see's 1 or 2 big nasty hogs a season could go for years before he meets the hog that truly tests his dedication to his job. those other 95 out of 100 hogs can be caught with rough curr dogs, I do it all the time with mine. Ive got a young bulldog now that Im on the fence about, she catches 150lb and down hogs no problem all the time but has had her ass handed to her on a couple bigger boars that I would have lost had I only been relying on her to catch but luckily my curr will hang one when she hits.

Austesus, no disrespect to you or your mentor, but I'm glad I'm not a catch dog for y'all. I've been doing this for almost 30 years on my own. I have lead and hunted with more bulldogs than a man can count. I've hunted with about every breed used for catching and in every type of terrain there is in the states. It don't take years and it don't take near death to prove a catch dog. That's like saying you aren't a man until you've been shot a few times. I have a gyp right now that is super green. Her type physically is spot on. She will get ahold of a hog. Is she a catch dog? No, not in my opinion. She's still learning how to get to a bay. When an intelligent dog sees a few good hogs, he learns something everytime. Little pigs and shoats don't do a whole lot of educating. An intelligent dog doesn't have to get cut down to learn. I've got more witnesses than you and your mentor together have fingers and toes, I've got the pics to show for it also, but my Vegas dog was a  CATCH DOG in every way. He died of cancer at almost 8 years old. It was about 14 days after I caught my last boar hog solo with him in the woods. I doubt he missed 20 hunts in all that time due to being cut. I caught hogs that literally, I couldn't almost reach around their legs with my hand. His worst injury was one that I caused because I dropped him in on a boar that was facing the opposite direction of what I thought he was. Granted if you hunt 1 or 2 times a month and all you catch are a couple at a time and go home, then it's going to take a while for a dog to become a seasoned dog. Vegas wasn't an exception, he was the norm of the family. There are also other circumstances. My nephew was getting pretty frustrated with his bulldog. He's young but straight ahead. It got to be that he was caught on the jaw a whole bunch or the hog would break just as he was getting there. He was ready to cull him. I told him to stop and think it through. Next time you go, only take a couple of dogs and leave those alligators at home. Guess what, eared up and no breaking hogs since. It's not always something that the catch dog can do anything about. The ones that run in and pray that they are able to get a hold of something, can't eat my feed. The ones that know where they are gonna catch as soon as they see the hog and then make it happen are the ones I want. The ones that learn to get out of the way after they are caught and know how to get leverage don't have to get cut to ribbons to prove out. Those are the ones I want to feed. There are a whole bunch of characteristics that go with the term "catch dog" just as there are with "hog dog". Being stupid definitely isn't one of them. Again, there are always special circumstances and options just aren't available. The dog has one way he can get in and catch the hog and one way only, he might have to take some punishment to get it done. He certainly doesn't have to be put in that situation to prove out to me though.

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If he's catching over 95% of the hogs he's sent to and can catch and handle big hogs by himself then he's a catch dog, all seeing one cut down and still do his job is just seeing the extent of his gameness it doesn't mean he's anymore or less a catch dog for it, the ones id call truly great dogs really didn't get cut very much, they had the sense to skillfully position themselves and pick their shot and STUCK on impact....

Awwhhhh it’s getting good now


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Lol the stuff you hear is laughable ether it catches or it don’t ether it gets cut or it don’t as much ether it will die trying or it won’t. No feed no training no getting whooped and coming back will change any of this. It ether is or it isn’t


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T-dog, I think you may have somewhat misinterpreted what I meant. Neither me nor my mentor have intentionally tried to set a dog up for failure to prove it. In fact my catch dog has never been cut down. He’s had one small nick that I can think of, and that’s it. Same with about all of my dogs. Of course I’m also not catching trophy boars every single time I hunt either. My point was just that I’ve seen some dogs that would catch every hog they saw, perfect, until that one time they got cut down bad, and then they just didn’t have the hardness afterwards. I guess that could be considering proving gameness more than proving that a dog is a catch dog, but nonetheless some dogs will change after being cut. I’m sure you’ve seen this over the years. So yes, my catch dog does his job, he catches pigs. He has yet to fail me, to some he may be considered a finished catch dog. In my personal opinion, he’s not completely proven until he has had the bad luck of being cut down. Now to me this does not mean he does not do his job, it simply means that I don’t yet consider him 110% reliable. I do not know what he will do after being cut down. He may stay hung, or he may back off. Until he is put in that situation I will never know.

That is not saying anything towards an intelligent dog. An intelligent dog will not get cut nearly as often, of course. But occasionally even an extremely intelligent dog can get caught in a bad situation. We run one dog that is dumb as rocks. He hits pigs like a bulldozer. He gets cut a lot. But, I would consider him proven because he has been on 100’s of pigs, been cut down multiple times, and is still reliable and will catch any pig he sees. He’s not the best by any means, but he’s proven. This is of course all opinion, everyone has their thoughts on the topic. We also run RCD, not walk ins. So I’m sure that changes things as well. All of our catch dogs will catch a pig by themselves, but they have backup 9/10 times. Which also reduces the chances of them getting cut in my opinion. Normally the pig is completely controlled by the dogs. Huge boars can be an exception, but most pigs will not fight much with a head full of dogs. Everyone has their style, that’s just what works for us.

Keep the comments coming, this thread is getting good!


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the info is out there...I won't dig it up but I am sure you will see more of it in your future...

Genetics...I don't think much has changed since Gregor Mendel...and just like any other trade there will be good ones bad ones and the average...I do know you are not much into theory as much as you are in actual facts...as per your own admissions...I tend to want to learn the facts but am more interested in experimenting and pushing and seacrching for new ways...I have been involved in major upgrades and building plants as well as starting them up and have worked with the best and brightest engineers...one thing I have learned over the years is that they tend to be book smart but not as many can figure out major problems...the kind that aren't in the books...that is when theory comes into play...sometimes it is process of elimination to get to the root cause...I am talking about engineers that are employed by a company that has over 10,000 employees world wide with countless contractors...

something else about what has been learned years ago like genetics and anything else...there is something that happens on a regular basis...it is called re-inventing the wheel...happens all the time...

I will not change my stance on epigenetics...the changes may seem minute but in reality there are folks who like riding the border line of perfection...if not on it they are constantly working towards it...

no, I am not ranting...yes I do bring certain things up because I only want to share what I believe is important in breeding, selection and training pups and dogs...true I have been writing about the same things ever since I joined this forum...

I have made many good points that I haven't seen made before other than myself....yet it appears that you are only looking for negative things to point out about what I write...

I been hunting with dogs for over 50 years and here lately not as much as I want...I do want to share my learning's with the new dog men and dog women...even if it helps a little here and there...

you probably don't need to read my writings on account you are very experienced and knowledgeable... 8)

Reuben anyone that has been in dogs for any amount of time has come across your type! You are looking for fame and legacy! The good news for you is there is enough new people to buy the regurgitation as your own ideas. Then there is people like myself new to hog dogs but not working dogs by any means. I am not buying your excuse of breeding untested dogs only because you want to try to get "your line" started as fast as possible. You are hurting hunting dogs by throwing a culls and cold dogs in your breeding program. The person talking about the bs breeding was probably breeding dogs for appearance not working.



 I call em how I see em!

I did take it as your catch dogs are only proven out by getting cut down to near death. I'm glad that I misinterpreted it. I have been fortunate in the sense of how I grew up. I grew up around performance horses, both rodeo and some race horses. I also grew up with game chickens and dogs. My father has always been one that was an overachiever so to speak. Extremely self disciplined which was hard at times to grow up with, but a very beneficial tool in my life now. Him being that way, he pushed himself and anyone in his circle to be their best. He surrounded himself with the best. He said your only as good as the people you surround yourself with and that your name doesn't matter, if your good enough everyone wants you on their team.  Because of this I had an inside seat to learn from very successful people in these fields. I learned to see things in animals early on that a lot of grown people never picked up on. Sometimes it might be a change in mannerisms or it could be the way they traveled, or maybe just that look in their eye. My point in this rant is this, if you know your animal on his average day from head to toe, inside and out, you can pick up on certain things before they happen. I have learned to trust my gut in these situations. Not everytime, but a VERY high percentage of times, I can tell you when a dog I'm hunting is gonna leave me high and dry before it happens. I don't care how game an animal is, you can make any of them quit just like you can make any dog bite. Again, style for me plays a role. There is a difference in the style of a dog that tries catching smart and a dog that is catching scared. It's also another reason that I like dogs out of working lines. Yes some JYD's make awesome catch dogs. But you don't know anything about what to expect or what's behind them. In a family of well bred dogs for your purpose, you know what to expect physically, mentally, statistically, etc. It's not a guarantee but it's a head start and a tremendous indicator. For example, my buddy bought a "finished catch dog". The first hog he caught with him folded one of his big K9's back between his lip and gum. He started baying and wouldn't catch again. Not a very big hog either. I had a gyp out of my family out for her 2nd or 3rd hunt. It was one find dog, one catch dog and myself self. The find dog was a loose baying not gonna put much teeth if any on a hog type. When I got to her bay, she had a baby elephant. I sent the catch dog. That hog give her a serious butt whooping. Not once did she shy away but seemed to get madder. She would ear up and he would knock her off on a tree. That one ear, what was left of it, was in ribbons. She switched to the other ear and the hog had fought out onto a trail where I was able to get up close and get his attention and gave her the chance to get leverage. I got ahold and threw and tied him. Wound up being a barr hog that I had to call 3 others to come out and help me load in the trailer. It was all the 4 of us could do to pick him up 18'' to put him in the dog trailer. While I was praising the dogs, I noticed the catch dogs mouth bleeding quite a bit. That hog completely knocked 2 K9's out and broke both of the other 2 off at the gum line. She had no thought of quitting. I didn't expect her to either. Her ancestors had shown over time that they had the grit. If it sounds like I'm trying to say I have the greatest I apologize.  My dogs suit me, they may not be squat to anyone else. This was just the best and first example I could think of. This thread is about breeding dogs. IN MY OPINION, the first most important ingredient are goals and knowing what you want and expect. The second most important is starting off with something that is at least somewhat in the neighborhood of those goals and expectations. If you chose to start a family of catch dogs with a bad a$$ Yorkie, then you are gonna be in for a long hard road. Obviously there a ton of theories and methods to get good dogs. Or person has success with one method and another person another way. They are convinced because of their progress and success that their way is right way. IN MY OPINION, the best are the ones that stand the test of time.

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What we need is more folks to write about how to breed better dogs and how to train pups and dogs...and maybe then we won’t have to deal with as many culls year after year...

75% of a good dog is the man behind him. Genetics have to line up sure but I know lots of “big time hog hunters” couldn’t have made a half assed help dog out of the best bred dog out there, and that wouldn’t know what to do with a high caliber dog if it was handed to them. If you are more critical of your dogs than you are of yourself, you ought to think about that.  Breeding better is easy, raising and making better is the hard part. .02¢ from a kid that don’t got a penny


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Where you are mistaken is that Reuben has been on this board for over a decade and has never once tried to push his dogs on anyone or advertise anything he has like it is the next best thing. Yeah, maybe his thought process is different than some but if he is doing it for himself and no one else then why the hell does it matter? No doubt there are a few on here or at least that were on here in the past who were looking for "fame and legacy" but Reuben is not and never has been one of them. He has very openly spoken about both his successes and failures and has always been humble when doing so.



I also call em how I see em!

Well put Justin

I agree with most everything in this post except me picking out the negatives, again this is where your speculation comes into play and I guess you have good reason but anyone who knows me on a personal level knows I stay away from negativity of any kind from anyone, I absolutely will not dwell in nor conjure any sort of negativity, I have not always been this way and was once a negative bitter mad at the world type of guy for things that happened in my life that was beyond my control, after losing nearly everything and everyone in my life that mattered to me because of that attitude it opened my eyes to everything and I've done a complete 180 with my life and the folks I allow in it and the actions I take toward life every single second of every single day, Reuben I ask you the things I do not because I'm trying to point out the negatives and try to prove you wrong, I admire our conversations because we're about the only two on this entire board that will lay it all out there and not worry what people think, and openly discuss things that others often wonder about themselves but are to afraid of ridicule to converse about it, contrary to what you may think we're so much alike it's not even funny, we just have strong differing views on some topics, I'm a limit pusher that loves trying new things and experimenting with different ideas myself, I'm not asking you to cite your sources to call you out, heck I want to go read these articles and studies myself, I wasn't being negative when I said what I did about your yearly breeding post, all I simply want to know us what is this new dimension of breeding going to bring to the table, I'm all ears, I believe if a man wants to take his breeding to the next level then he needs to learn about sex linked traits and what genes our inherited from what parents...

I am making a observation. I use frequently visit boards this one included. The people trying to reinvent the wheel or peddle pups use really grind my gears. I am past that point as I gain years.

I will point out that I interpreted right or wrong that because it was in a article it had to be valid. That is a complete crock of crap. I have read many things in many articles some stood correct some did not. If you have to do a extreme breed practice like the one listed maybe you need a new foundation. Why work so hard to attempt to make a pedigree full of your name with generations of unproven dogs. 

I agree if the dogs stay on his yard or friends then do as you please it is when you start to sell or gift as something it is not or some groupie gets a dog from a guy and it is a great dog but has bunch of guess and unknowns for 3 generations and then the groupie is out campaigning the dog but little does anyone know that the stud and bitch that created that dog both can’t bust a grape in food fight. So know you have people wasting time feeding bullnumber 2 based on groupies dog.

I don’t really give 2 craps about it. I am just letting him know that he isn’t fooling anyone here with the idea and most have been raised around working dogs would not agree no matter how many articles you feed them. Well maybe 1 person does. I don’t think he ever listed the articles actually. I don’t have a issue with the man personally just me telling him how I feel.

Sorry if this looks silly driving and typing

I am glad I’m influenced with my tag line! ;)

Goose I sent you a pm


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  Had the pleasure of meeting Reuben down south about a month ago. I was at a baying by myself down in Nixon, standing around just kind of people watching and here comes an older gentlemen says he recognizes me from the board, says “your slim right” I said yessir. He went on to compliment me and my dogs and we had a few different little conversations. Heck the man went and got breakfast and brought me back a taco and a coke. Heck of a guy, comes off about as humble as anyone I’ve ever met.  Might want to meet a man before you start claiming you know what he’s about.


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I don't believe that science will ever catch up to nature when it comes to K-9 breeding, and that to me says we way over complicate the process and that in itself is a hindrance. It also helps prove that culling and selection are the most important tools in a program as that is what nature does.
Size and color are the easiest traits to manipulate, it is the performance traits that are tough so some people just start with something that they feel is well balanced in all aspects and go from there. Generally dogs will be the average of what is in their pedigree for several generations, providing there isn't too many variations-if there are then you will see them vary according to the gene pool which leads us back to culling and selection. I predict that there will never be a "formula" scientific or other wise that is guaranteed successful.

I know I am not judging anyone’s character or moral compass. Hell I would happily take a taco from the man and talk dogs. All I said is I know I have seen the results of similar practices and most have. It is usually about every 2 years someone thinks they are the first to do this or that when it comes to dog breeding. It is dog talk and how I see it. I am not running for club president and not one to give 2 number 2s if you do or don’t agree with my views. If you take post personal might not like life around work dog boards.
I have been on them long enough to get worked up a couple times and drive hours to see people about it.

I learned the www

NorthStar...you are definitely making assumptions about what I have posted...oftentimes when I write about breeding it is not about when I bred full blooded dogs with open pedigrees...moving on...once I got into hog hunting in the early 1980's I fed too many dogs that needed a dirt nap...so I bought quite a few supposedly good pups from good bloodlines and I culled most of them...then I found the right dogs that needed a little tweaking...and with the first young dogs they hit the marsh and were swimming in the cat tails and first time on hogs I caught two with them and then they strike a in a bad clear cut and run a hog for hours...they spent the night running and the next morning they were on my jacket waiting on me...that was my start with the good dogs...the credit goes to a man name Joe Manning, HB white and AC Zoeller and the men before them...all three are dead and gone now...I didn't create them but I improved on them to my liking...I did all I could to do that...the females I bred on the first heat is because they were well on their way to being awesome...every dog I bred in my backyard was what I called a good dog...they were all mt cur dogs but I bred a black mouth cur one time at the beginning to keep the size and quiet the mouth some...I do know dogs...working dogs but I lean towards hunting dogs of all types...especially hog dogs...you can ask me anything you want as to why I did it a certain way and I will have an answer for you because I do believe I did not leave one stone unturned on how and why I bred a certain way...I know what a good hunting dog is and I also know what a great hunting dog is...I also know what kind of dog it takes to hunt with the best of them in any company...

I never did say my dogs were scatterbred dogs...as a matter of fact I said I bred the females rather quickly so I could purify the gene pool...I said daughter and granddaughters...I did not say but they were also related to the sire and grandsire in one way or another...

this is a free forum and your are entitled to your assumptions...and I do think it would really be nice of you if you shared some of your breeding knowledge and techniques with us on this forum...fresh ideas are welcome...

1/2 of it is breeding and selecting...the other half is socializing, training and conditioning...maybe the next thread needs to be about how we do that...

Justin...thanks for the kind words...you have always been respectful of others that deserve it and are a knowledgeable dog man...

Slim97...thanks...it was a pleasure in meeting you in person as well...

your probably right about being too much alike... :)

I have no problem share thoughts and proven practices in breeding of working dogs that have competed at the highest levels of working and sport. I can talk breeding all day. I am sure I have different ideas then some and that does not make them right or wrong. I admit I didn’t know you were using scatter bred dogs but that would definitely  make want to have the litter prove the percentages more than a line or tight bred breeding.
You have been breeding longer than me if you started in the 80’s. What type of percentages are your litters throwing of solid workers? The issues some have is the F1 curse how did that effect your results?

Northstar...you answered my question with another question...

Reuben,

I didn’t see any place that you asked a question. You made statement about me sharing knowledge. So in a attempt to have a conversation about breeding I asked questions and shared some info.

I remember a fella on hear that said I couldn’t be a good breeder but he could lol. Anyone can do anything at any time. There is some science to breeding animals but 90% is educated guess. Now experience plays in to this and selective breeding  is the biggest part to me. Forest Gump said it best a litter of pups from anyone on earth is like a box chocolates you don’t know what your going to get


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Lol I know exactly what post your talking about JP, Don't matter if your dogs are scatter bred, line bred, old family of dogs, or dogs you picked up off the side of the road, if your catching hogs with them with whatever style you hunt and you raise pups off those dogs and they perform to your liking and your honest with yourself then you are successful, we all judge success on different levels and with hunting dogs there's so many different variations and styles of dogs that are successful  when it comes to the bottom line and that is catching hogs that there's never going to be one set way of doing things...

like the old man and others have said , science will never catch up with or understand genetics . i've not had a dog yet that needed training ... i've had 1 or 2 that needed killing ,but thats just keeping the gene pool good , the same as mother nature used to do with human beings and sooner or later is likely to do again hahaha

Jdt.....nailed it.