EAST TEXAS HOG DOGGERS FORUM

This is a subject that interests me...

The old time Bulldog guys thought the widows peak came from the Black and Tan gene.

Now this could come from the terrier or another breed...

Some old  historical American Bulldogs have this trait as well

Of course NALC registered catahoulas  have this trait.
 
So what is this evidence of? The pitbull containing catahoula or other breeds? The catahoula containing pitbull or other breeds. The AB containing either or other breeds?
 
What is the origin in your opinion of this trait?

For long time dog men like wow. My question for you is what do you think the origin is?

Ironhead an acclaimed pit dog possessed this trait and was a great producer.

Scott’s shadow an early progenitor of the American Bulldog possessed this trait.  His sire gigantic Jim was always rumored to be half Great Dane..
 
Plus I could post many other game dogs from way back that were Black and Tan.

Anyway. It’s interesting because I have a 1/2 ab, 1/4 gamebred pit, 1/4 nalc registerd cat that was black n tan and her sire 1/2 ab/ 1/2 cat both have and had the widows peak.

Seems most the black n tan cats also come with a blocky build and a big head...

Just a chicken or the egg thing...

 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=25124 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=25124)

 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1442825-dixie-mountain-shadow-of-alan-scott?_v=20090206174137 (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1442825-dixie-mountain-shadow-of-alan-scott?_v=20090206174137)

Obviously in my buckskin mutts it comes for the catahoula.

But where does it come from in the game apbt
From decades ago?

Where does it come from in the catahoula?

It obviously could come from anywhere in the AB. From  Rottweiler to Doberman. It’s a catch all.

Why are the black n tan cats do blocky and rough?

The obvious conclusion would be the terrier I suppose. Hence American pitbull terrier.

But how did that get into the catahoula or the AB?

My guess would be through the apbt.

Your thoughts?

In my opinion it comes from intense line breeding black seems to on a lot of it


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Nah...black begat black or a dilute of blue...

Black and Tan is different. ESP exhibited in a total coat color of tan or buck or white

If the widows peak in those other colors, as supposed by folks long dead, if a proof of the back and tan gene. Then it has nothing to do with solid black.

It’s a terrier trait

....never seen a black n tan Labrador

Nope sure don’t


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My guess would be the pit bull side. I’m not as familiar with the AB lineage so I can’t say for sure with them, but there are certain families of them that definitely have some pit bull in there. I was always taught that waaaay back, there were basically two strains of the Catahoulas. Texas and Louisiana both had their own. I can’t remember now which did what but one bred hound into the cats and the other bred pit bull into them. Years ago it was pretty evident in appearance. You would see some really houndy type cats and you could see really pit looking cats. I remember pulling up to hunt with my buddies uncle one morning. There was a truck there already that had a knockout of a dog in the back of it. He was reddish/liver colored, with amber eyes, and a red nose. Tight made and muscular but not overly so and the muscle was well defined. I said man that’s a pretty pit cross. My buddy said naw that dogs pure pit. Naturally in the next few minutes we asked. He was a registered cat. His momma was a red merle gyp and I never saw his dad, but actually hunted with about 3 of his brothers and actually owned 1 of them. They were all red or liver colored but a couple of them actually had this widows peak as well. They were stupid rough. I don’t remember hunting with any of them
that they didn’t get hammered anytime we got on a decent hog. So I say the pit side but I don’t know if it’s isolated to the blk/tan gene. I don’t know if the widows peak would be a color gene or a pattern gene. That’s my small brain storm.


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I could be wrong but seems like some of the Sorrels bred APBT’s had some dogs with the widows peaks.


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Long story short, IMO, the  terrier crossed fightn pitbull of the late 18th century is a component of the modern catahoula and the American Bulldog. The AB people hate that.... but it’s the truth imo

Of course there may be more pure strains of the molosser type Bulldog before the terrier infusion that were here but those were definitely crossed to more modern pit dogs with the terrier infusion dogs of the pit dogs. I can’t say...no one can. But the folks that tout the true pure crap sure can’t prove it and actually the evidence points to a Myriad of other breeds bred trying to mold a modern reconstruction of a lost breed.

This I have heard first hand and evidence is there to support the composite breed fact. While there is none on the other side. Just stories

Tdog,
I like that ab you are hunting now...

Showed my son pics of him a while back.

My son attended shows while he was a youngster  with me and his mother and has hunted his whole life.

He liked the pics of the dog too...

If I had to guess that dog has a fair bit of hines blood in it.

My favorite ab rip and the one I still breed on has a fair bit as well

Here’s one I bred, rip lost to a hog, that I have a young gyp off off now. Both have that widows peak.

 http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=83330.msg499604#msg499604 (http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=83330.msg499604#msg499604)

Believe me...

I’m not selling Bulldogs. I don’t have pups and if I did they’d be free to working homes...

It’s just the widows peak thing I’m tryn to discuss

Thanks Semmes. He’s a nice dog and a pleasure to hunt. He’s not perfect, there are a couple of things I would change. I bred him to the last old gyp out of the family of bulldogs I raised for years. She had 6, all males, and 2 were still born of the 6. It looks like she cleaned up some of the physical things I wanted so we will see. I wanted female pups though, lol. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/886c2a6310107b6b11cf88c23b3b6216.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/4cc8c78abcd6dc49a90a3253fe5cac41.jpg)


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Nice pup T, I had quite a few dogs down from Honeybunch stuff who was rumoured to be off Ironhead and although I never had any with the widows peak the folks still running those dogs are getting a few. There is absolutely no black and tan or any Sorrells blood in these dogs that I am aware of.

The widow peak strong in the OFRN dogs
Ive had several with it
Their several names inside the OFRN strain that have this trait


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Wilders Geronimo II had a widows peak if I remember right and you would see it pop up in dogs here and there that came down from that family of dogs.

In the bulldog game nobody has ever really nailed down were the widows peak come from.  Some lines of dogs seem to throw more than others such as the old Iron Head dogs but it just can never really be nailed down .  People must understand that there has been bulldogs around for 1500 years.  From what I can understand all this started with dogs that where called Rat dogs.  Which were dogs that were bred to kill rats as most of the cities were infested with them back 100 and 100s of years ago. This is were the bulldog game came into play.  Our American Pit Bull Dogs are made up of many many different lines of dogs such as the Irish dogs,  the English dogs,  the British dogs, Scotland Scottish dogs,  Spain dogs and many many years ago dogs of the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia I've heard had great great dogs.  A lot of these dogs were  brought over to the usa back during the gold rush as the Irish and Scottish people were coal miners and when gold was discovered in Calif.  They all thought piss on coal we are going to Calif to mine Gold and they did .  Well they brought there dogs with them .  I know a man that was born and raised in Calif and the bulldog game was completely legal back then.  He told me a story one time were the Cops all had Bulldogs and the Fire Dept all had bulldogs and they had major competition between the two depts often playing the bulldog game in the middle of the fire station .  Where the chit hit the fan back then was when they were having a great competition going on right in the middle of the fire station against the cops .  The whole damn departments were there lmao Well sure as hell the Fire Dept gets a call about a house of fire and nobody picked up the phone lol .  Well about a half our later when one of the deals were over they all were walking out side for a liquor break hahahaahahhahaahahahaha and all hell was breaking loose just across the street the whole damn place was on fire aahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.  This all made the papers and that is when the first chit hit the fan in Calif and bulldogs .   But no man nobody has ever nailed down the widows peak in bulldogs .  It would be almost impossible . 

I not too much into the history of dogs on account the real truth will never be known especially when going way back…over the years I have read that bulldog and the Black and Tan terrier were crossed to come up with a dog that was much better in the pit…

Some more information on the widows peaks.  I bred bulldogs for many years and know quite a few of the oldest dog men was in the game which most have now passed on but there are a few still alive.  I was talking to a old friend of mine that owned bulldogs since he was 9 years old he is now 70 or better.  He owned dogs straight off of Eli Jr. Brendy and Bullyson .  He also owned the old Maw bitch that started the Alien/Bullnumber 2 line of dogs also known as the White dogs with the great Banditlio dog .  He owned the sister to Chinaman and dogs straight off of the great old Bolio dog as a matter of fact his best friend had Eli Jr. , Bolio and Java all on his yard at the same time  He knew just about all of the great old dog men personally .  We were talking about the widows peak and were it may have come from.  He said that it came from the white colored bulldogs of long long ago.  Earl Tudor loved the white dogs and the widows peak from what he tells me.  Also Tudor imported dogs from the Irish in Ireland and also dogs from the English.  My old buddy was in the military and over in Ireland for a stay.  He said while he was over there he met a man that owned around are over 300 bulldogs all on chains and kept perfectly. Nearly all White dogs and a lot with widows peaks.  The Irishman told my friend that these dogs had been in his family for around 200 years are so .  These bulldogs and the widows peak has been around for hundreds of years it goes back years and years.  I was also talking to him about what was mention up there about bulldog being bred into the  Catahoula line of dogs to which he said he would not doubt it at all.  Like he said people need to understand that breeds of different dogs have been around for hundreds of years and bred for a different working purposes back in the old old days not for play not for show but for jobs.  People could not afford to feed dogs just because they were pretty.

I once bred a family of dogs so tightly that I had a kick back come out of a liter.  When I seen this pup born I had no ideal what it was are were it came from.  The oddest looking thing and I was sitting there when it was born.  This dog had a dark blue color with light blue splotches mixed all in the coat of hair.  It looked like the underneath was spray painted with a light gun metal blue and then you stepped back with a bucket of dark blue paint and just slung it at the dog .  Damndest thing you ever seen .  As the pup got up to about four five months old .  I was out playing with the dog on a bright sunny day and I got to looking at the dog .  When the sunlight would hit the dog the coat looked reddished and as soon as it was in the shade it would be dark blue to gun metal blue damndest thing I had ever seen thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.  Well as the dog got up to about six months old I never in my life seen a bulldog look like this .  So I got to asking around and sent pictures to every body I knew even in other countries.  Nobody had a anwser.  Then one day out of the blue a man from the UK emailed me and said he would like to send me a picture that he knew what the dog was and what happened in the breeding.  He sends me this hand painted picture of this dog from the 1700's .  Yes you read that right from the 1700's.  It was a picture of the a Blu Pahl fighting dog.  He said with the hard family and  inbreeding I  had done on this line of dogs  that the dog I now had in my possession was a direct Throw back to the blu Pahl fighting dogs of the 1700's.  Needless to say I like to crapped my britches when I unrolled the painting that he had sent me .  True story .  So you see you can get throw backs from many many many years if bred well enuff.

Was the throw back good, different, or a cull? I know the description of this particular dog is a little different but the dog men of old culled blue pups at birth because they were automatically presumed inferior in performance and health. That was how they more or less eliminated that color.


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 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_pit_bull_terrier/dog.html?id=1466170-black--tige?_v=20160223001012 

  Tudor's Black Tige was sired by a dog called Blue Mike, who has several other blue dogs in his pedigree

  A very good dog historian has documented blue gamedogs in the early 1900's a few times in America and the history going back the "Blue Paul" dogs of Scotland.

 https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/the-history-of-blue-dogs-in-apbts-and-amstaffs/

 

Hunting heritage that was a neat and interesting article. I’ve been around hunting/working dogs, working horses (rodeo/cow horses of one kind or another), and game chickens my entire life. I would say a vast majority of the people that molded me in any of those, all had very similar thought processes. Obviously, there are always exceptions to the rules, but as a whole certain rules just seem to hold up. As a kid and a youngster I always liked the loud colored and different looking animals. It didn’t matter if it was loud, flashy marked catahoula, a paint horse, or a blue game rooster, they had my attention. Pretty is almost always gonna get bred because people just appreciate pretty and most will give pretty chance after chance when they would’ve already discarded it if it weren’t pretty. When I got older, and started losing my money betting on pretty, my dad and other mentors all explained it about the same way. I will use the game chickens for example. If you were at a derby and you could put all the winners in baskets according to color, the basket with the plain old red roosters would be over flowing several times over before the baskets of uniquely or off colored roosters. I asked why that was and it was explained that there were two reasons basically. One was that some colors are just inferior for one reason or another. The other reason was that the off colored birds were selected on color or beauty ahead of performance. The plain old reds were selected for performance first more times than not. None of this means the off colored ones didn’t win or beat some red ones or even that there weren’t some great ones of off color. If you look at the most popular families out there they will come in all colors because some people are about performance alone and others are in hopes of having uniqueness as well performance. There are some really good off colored families but there seem to be fewer of them because of the lower percentages in performance. There are family after family of reds though that just never go away because they perform consistently. There are a lot of really good blue roan horses, but when it comes to being well rounded, the better ones are crosses to a good red bloodline. Many of the blue horses are known for being tough as nails but not as athletic. Again, there are always exceptions.  Many of the old cowboys always said that if you watched westerns on TV you would see that the Indian Cheifs made their braves ride paints and apps. They said it was so the braves would be good and mad when they got to battle. I have seen some of both of those that were as good as any in any color but not consistently. As for my bay dogs they are a cat/Walker cross. It seems like I’m always drawn to the merles in appearance but end up keeping the different variations of black, brindles, or Walker colored ones. It seems like the longer I raise them the fewer merles I get because of it. Not that the merles aren’t good but that the others seem to be a little better. I don’t know if any of this makes sense to anybody but me lol, but this article was saying something very similar to me. And please, nobody be offended by what I’m saying. I’m not trying to knock ANYBODY’S dogs, chickens, or horses. If you like them I love them. They only have to please you. Mine wouldn’t please anyone but me most likely.


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The dog only made it to about six are seven months old.  He was kept in a nice kennel by himself and seemed healthy as a horse.  I went outside one morning and the dog was laying dead in the kennel .  For no reason at all he just fell over.  Dangest thing.  There was a lot of interest in that dog because of the way he was bred.  It would have been nice to see how he turned out but we will never know.  One day I will put up a picture of the Blu Pahl painting I have that the man sent me.  It was some very very interesting stuff to say the least .

The blue pit bulls were dang near all bred for color and that is just what you got 99% of the time.  This dog here that I talked about up there was grandson of Gr Ch Lionhead , Cates Cujo , Ada and the Black Widow bitch.  A super bred dog down from super performance fast lane dogs.  The blue dogs you are talking about are mostly trash bred might be a few to the exception but I dont think many.

Same here with me.  This is just my opinion .  Not talking nonsense about anybody's blue dogs, horses are what ever.  Just talking about mine and the ones I have seen.  It was just a freak thing.  All pups were Black and some Reds in that liter and right in the middle of them was this pup.  I was sitting there with the gyp the night they were born. Stunned !

Dang Jimmy it's been awhile thought you done got lost on that Pontoon boat lol.

I love how a bulldog looks with a widows peak the dogs way way back in these bulldogs I have threw it like Baker Davis' Gr Ch. Boomerang and I have seen it in several other's off his dogs but he had a lot of Tudor's dogs in his so that makes sense.

 
  From what I have seen in online pedigrees you would have to go back a hundred years to find any game family of blue colored dogs.

 The only documented example is in the ped of Tudor's Black Tige who was sired by a dog named Blue Mike that went back to a line of blue dogs.

  https://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=15093

  A very good dog historian (IMHO) in the U.K. who goes by Jackal's Old Country blood has researched in and found the last mention of the line was a pure Blue Paul shown in 1880's.

 https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/the-history-of-blue-dogs-in-apbts-and-amstaffs/

  This world is all long gone and can only be verified to a point and I don't promote dog fighting or fighting about it online!

 

 

LH Cracker .  Yeah the old back got so bad had to make some changes.  There was about eight months there I could not even straighten up.  Finally got it straighten back out .  That kinda of pain will make you change your way of thinking lol.  Been a long long time since I seen the Henry dogs in the pedigrees.  Tudor took those Henry dogs and crossed into his lines of dogs. I think the old Great Black Jack dog he had went back to the Henry dogs.  Joe Corvino was another great breeder that imported some dogs.  The old Corvino dogs were damn great great dogs from what I know and know some people that knew him.  A lot of old timers will tell you that the Corvino dogs is what put a lot of punch into the Eli dogs .  A lot of folks need to remember that the cross you put in your dogs is just as important are even more important than the main line of dogs  you are breeding .  The cross is either gonna make are break your line of dogs.  Thats a fact you just have to be smart enuff to see it and get away from it like the plague.  I know of a many many lines of good dogs that got all screwed up because of the cross blood people used and were hard headed and would not get away from it trying to make it work.  The thing is in the breeding game is either it works are it dont !  There is no inbetween !

This same rule of thumb goes with linebreeding and inbreeding.  You can completely screw  up a family of dogs by trying to breed them to tight and I mean fast fast fast .  If I had to do it all over again .  I would breed best to best and let the pedigrees sort themselves out . If you see a great great dog do not hesitate are be afraid to breed to him are her the hell with the pedigree.   When I bred best to best and the hell with the pedigrees is when I had the best dogs I ever had in my life.  I did this for the first 15 years are more when I first got into the bulldogs and boy , boy is all I can say.  Then I got tied up in bloodlines and thought I was smarter than mother nature and started breeding for families of dogs .  Wrong move!  Not to say there was not any great dogs in these breedings but it was never the same .  The great great dogs come from breeding best to best with hard line culling.

Just a little article to give this post ‘legs’

 https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/black-tan/ (https://jackalsoldcountryblood.com/black-tan/)

Here is another naming some Black and Tan game bred pit bulls and their breeding.

 https://m.facebook.com/PitbullKnightsKennels/photos/black-tan-historyretired-historicanthe-black-and-tan-coloration-is-an-uncommon-o/1988027977977046/ (https://m.facebook.com/PitbullKnightsKennels/photos/black-tan-historyretired-historicanthe-black-and-tan-coloration-is-an-uncommon-o/1988027977977046/)

I believe the widows peak is related to the agouti gene and recalls a recessive ancestry to Black and Tan dogs.

The widows peak is expressed, only sometimes since it is recessive , when breeding two dogs with the recessive Black and Tan gene.

Whether they be of the same breed or ‘purebred’

Those dogs in turn if tightened up on ‘could’ produce Black and Tans.

From then on out Black and Tan may become the dominant color.

I believe this is proof of the terrier blood in the catahoula by way of the pitbull

Next topic I would like to delve into would be, novel eye colors in Bulldogs.

Talk bout opening another can of worms. Lol

We all know the most acceptable eye color would be brown, the darker the better.

But Bulldogs come in all sorts colors. From gold to green, from the cherished black Bulldogs with ‘red’ eyes that were so successful in the ‘game’, to blue....

All this is intriguing to me.

I have read where the black and tan coloration in the old Leopard dogs was "supposed" to have came from the Beauceron, a dog of French decent.

Which makes perfect sense ;), something these "pit" Bulldog guys just don't have much of ;D

That coming from this guy...



Yeah....the dogs you claim to run wouldn’t be there if not for ‘pit’ bulldogs.

As to the old man’s point it is well noted and a very good point I had not considered. I appreciate the post greatly. That’s why I come on here. To learn from folks with a wealth of knowledge

From what I read the beauceron is a breed with quite a long history.

The French came to Louisiana in 1682. Definitely a strong point in the origin of the Black and Tan in the catahoula, maybe in the apbt as well lol...could be a chicken or egg thing.
 

Hammered my point home with that one big dawg ;)   By the way, are you from where I am from. If so, how many generations deep are you in South/Central Florida. What, if any, first hand knowledge do you have of the Cur cow dogs that were "built" and bred in this part of the state of Florida.

I’m gens deep in south Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi. The 11th gen to be exact of the family in America which started in America in 1635. My children are 12th gen.

 https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LHXN-7N8/marmaduke-semmes-ii-1635-1692 (https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LHXN-7N8/marmaduke-semmes-ii-1635-1692)

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Semmes (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Semmes)

 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80537 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80537)

 https://neylorz.medium.com/ofrn-the-neverending-story-4edd61a1546a (https://neylorz.medium.com/ofrn-the-neverending-story-4edd61a1546a)

Since you asked...

Let’s see your pedigree? Mine is laid out like a dig pedigree in this book.

 https://www.google.com/search?q=semmes+america&client=safari&bih=739&biw=375&hl=en&sxsrf=AOaemvI7S-Zdm7_f34aqnMLZ5IsNMkLqOw%3A1640916959879&ei=32fOYduGNZjOwbkP7KuswAE&gs_ssp=eJzj4tFP1zc0SsrNMMwtTzNg9OIrTs3NTS1WSMxNLcpMTgQAkPkJ9g&oq=semmes+america&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIHCC4QsAMQJzIJCAAQsAMQCBAeMgkIABCwAxAIEB4yCQgAELADEAgQHjIICAAQsAMQzQJKBAhBGAFQAFgAYK4VaABwAHgAgAGSBIgBkgSSAQM1LTGYAQDIAQXAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp (https://www.google.com/search?q=semmes+america&client=safari&bih=739&biw=375&hl=en&sxsrf=AOaemvI7S-Zdm7_f34aqnMLZ5IsNMkLqOw%3A1640916959879&ei=32fOYduGNZjOwbkP7KuswAE&gs_ssp=eJzj4tFP1zc0SsrNMMwtTzNg9OIrTs3NTS1WSMxNLcpMTgQAkPkJ9g&oq=semmes+america&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIHCC4QsAMQJzIJCAAQsAMQCBAeMgkIABCwAxAIEB4yCQgAELADEAgQHjIICAAQsAMQzQJKBAhBGAFQAFgAYK4VaABwAHgAgAGSBIgBkgSSAQM1LTGYAQDIAQXAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp)

Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, but not South/Central Florida. With all those Generations in the Deep South, how many, if any, old timey Florida Cowmen(Crackers), as we are called here, have you or your Kin discussed Cur Cow Dogs with.

 rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

Anyone who wants can scroll back through your history and see what proof since 2010 on this board....

You got some crossed ‘white English’ x catahoula  Merle chow hounds that don’t look like they ever worked a day in their lives and bunch racist bs...

Thats your contributions, now prove it differently

You got me with the whole human pedigree thing there big dawg. None of my people even smart enough to dig up and be able to post no sh#t like that, being the simple Cowmen and Commercial Fisherman we are. Did have some kin that rode  drove and fought with The Confederate Cow Calvary though. You let me know when you get some "first hand knowledge" as to what was bred into the Cur Cow Dogs of my family and almost every other Old Florida Family around and below Lake Okeechobee ;)   And once again, you ever come across a line of dogs that look like my white "Sissy" dog, that have the natural desire to head and bunch cattle, you let me know. I'd like to take a look at them. I'm out son.

Not your son... just call me daddy...pimp

‘Edit’,... gimp

Got to forgive me.

I blame it on being line bred.

I do have a first cousin breeding 5 gens back lol

Good one, lol!

Back in the 1970’s there was a breeder advertising Black and Tan APBT’s in one of the hunting magazines…it seems he advertised quite a few years…

Years ago it was common to read similar articles by different writers but don’t see them anymore…it was written that the English bulldog, which was used for pit fighting and bull fighting in those days, was bred to a Black and Tan terrier and the results were a better fighting dog…I believe the Staffordshire terrier and APBT are a spin off of those initial breedings…also, the English bulldog of those times resembled the APBT’s of today more than the English bulldog of today…

Back in England and Scotland, the terriers were well known for their fierce temperaments towards game…I do not know all the Black and Tan terriers of those days…there was one that was called the Black and Tan terrier…that is the one they used to cross with the bulldog…

This terrier I believe was used to develop many terriers directly and indirectly such as the Lakeland, Welsch, Airedale…

In breeding for a certain dominant dog color, there can be a recessive color gene hidden that when paired together will produce the recessive color…it can take a while to minimize the production of that color…

When breeding two dogs displaying the same recessive color then it is a guarantee that each dog (sire and dam) are carrying two sets of the recessive genes for color and can only produce that one color when bred together.

Sometimes, especially when outcrossing, we see two recessive colors of the same and when we make the cross…the colors in the offspring are not what we expected…I made this cross with 2 yellow dogs and had 10 brindle pups with all having different shades of yellow brindle…it turns out one of the yellow dogs was a brindle but the brindle could not be seen with the naked eye…

Many of the terriers in their mother countries back in the old days used to put some of the terrier breeds through extreme testing conditions for gameness…some were put in a barrel with a badger or other tough varmit and if the terrier could take the punishment and kill the varmit then the terrier passed as a potential  breeder…I’m thinking it had to pass a hunting test as well…

Many of the terrier breeds have smaller, dark eyes and do not protrude past the head…they are flush with the skull…they are probably bred this way to minimize debris in the eyes when going to ground or to minimize injury when engaging dangerous game in close quarters…

The APBT…the game bred usually has the same type of eye…my thinking is that they were not intentionally bred this way…the APBT that were the winners in the pit were bred…the genetic make up of the winners included more genes from the terrier influences such as the terrier eye…

Don’t take this as fact about the APBT eye…it is theoretical thinking…

Quite a few Pits are the chocolate color with "orange" trim, in most breeds that is a dilute black and tan coloration.

I agree with most of this post Reuben.

I too have read about the Black and Tan terrier and believe it to be a forebearer  of many modern breeds.

Including the pitbull

This I’m not sure I agree with...

I think it is a fact that there is a percentage that will display the recessive trait and not that they will only produce the recessive trait.

This I agree with as well. And much in the same way of the dilute genetics I believe the widows peak expression is also a manifestation of the Black and Tan color in dogs.

I have read and seen pictures that prove the ‘gas house dog’, an early English imported pitbull, one of the progenitors to a lot of American stock produced Black and Tan regularly

Therefore it would prove that two dogs with the recessive trait ‘could only produce’ the trait would be false.

And that to color trait would be able to be bred away from. Since this dog was bred on quite a bit. Colby produced Black and Tans out of certain pairings.

Most bred away from the color but the recessive is there and if breed on hard it can be made predominant with selection or suppressed with selection.

As far as eyes go. A lot of this is just conjecture...

It is quite feasible.

When looking at the pitbull they by the standard are supposed to have almond shaped eyes

Whereas American Bulldogs have round eyes

My dogs have round eyes because they are by percentage mostly AB.

While the half siblings of them that are full pit have the almond eyes they are supposed to have.

Saddleback is also a manifestation of a trait
For Black and Tan

I have seen video of saddle back dingos in Australia.
Also widow peak dingos.

The Black and Tan is ancient in dog breeds.

Who knows where it originated but it probably goes back to the wolf and the formation of the dog.

This eye shape is much more modern.

But the Black and Tan is ancient.

breeding two dogs displaying the same recessive color then it is a guarantee that each dog (sire and dam) are carrying two sets of the recessive genes for color and can only produce that one color when bred together.

Thank you Semmes for pointing out my mistake…what I should of said is that the sire and dam are each for sure are carrying a recessive gene for the same color and that recessive from each parent were passed on to the pup displaying the recessive color…the guarantee is that this puppy is carrying the two recessives for that color…this pup when bred to another pup with the same color genes when bred together should produce the same color…

The Mt curs I originally started out with and decided to start breeding way back came from a breeder in San Antonio, TX…he was a successful real estate business man and he bred thoroughbred race horses and Mt curs…

He wrote an article on breeding for color in horses and he could predict the color of the offspring…but predicting the color of the pups was another story…

If all dogs originated from the wolf…from the Chihuahua, Mexican Hairless, to the Chow, the Irish Wolfhound and all other dog breeds…then there is so much more to genetics and evolution that no one could possibly explain accurately…I believe Epigenetics is the next level that will get us closer to the facts…

The black in wolves and coyotes in North America comes from the Domestic dog.

With Genome mapping in  dogs it is confirmed, dogs did not evolve from contemporary grey wolves. They evolved from the same wolf like ancestor. They are cousins compared to direct ancestors.

Similar to humans and Neanderthals if they would not have died out.

With lots of inbreeding between the species to murky the water even farther.

Just an FYI

With all the variance in dog breeds and yet their dna is almost entirely from the wolf that points to the power of selective breeding "and" the genetic mutations in isolated gene pools. So, although breeding and genetics is a science, I don't believe it will ever be an exact science.

Ive always wondered why no one has ever used those high% wolf dogs to hog hunt with. You'd think it would come naturally to them lol.

This is exactly what I was saying…

Make-‘‘em squeal…

I have thought much about the physiological aspects of the wolf, coyote and fox which they have similar structures and the biggest differences are their sizes…we have to believe that evolution molded them to have erect ears that swivel fo pin point accuracy…how the front legs are set as well as the rib cages are shaped amongst other similarities is worth noting…the physical similarities were molded by necessity as part of the evolution process…
Mother Nature does not make mistakes…she culls those that cannot meet her standards…no vaccines and no bottle feeding…the laws of nature include the laws of balance…

We as humans breed for extreme traits at times for nose, length of ear and hunt just naming a few examples…

Looking at one trait as an example…
The ear…
The wolf ear…why are they always a prick ear?
I could create theories on why and I have read some examples why…but I can only say there are good reasons for it because nature doesn’t make mistakes…

Bloodhound ear…I can only say that this ear can not survive in the wild and it would eventually evolve back towards the wolf, coyote and fox type ear because nature does not make mistakes…people do…

Actually it seems to me that dogs devolved into flop ears, that is a genetic mutation that is controlled by the hormones secreted from the adrenal gland this in turn is part of the trigger for the fight or flight response in wild canids and we really don't want a dog with a wolf temperament. It can also contribute to white spots on the coat.

How is the malamute ear explained? Why isn’t the wolf ear evolved into the long floppy ear?

I don't know about the Malmute but the Wolf maintaining a prick ear is due to the necessity of higher fight or flight response necessary for a higher percentage survival rate. That is actually determined as an embryo when the adrenal gland is forming, and is formed by a group of stem cells called neural crest cells, a higher or lower concentration of these cells at different locations has an effect causing different presentations of the body parts, color or lack of, and disposition. Seems to me that may be how the "genetic mutations" occur. The different degrees of flop or prick ears in dogs is determined the same way and has to do with the amount of the "stem cell" that attaches at those points, which "per breed or specie" becomes a pretty much consistent inheritable trait.
This "theory" began with in Darwins studies and more recently was further studied by a team of researchers headed by an Adam Wilkins and was published in some high falautin Genetics Journal.

I remember years ago reading about a study done on foxes that were tamed or domesticated from wild foxes for the fur market but as generations went by in domestication their ears, coat, tail carriage, and disposition changed since the folks wanted and chose "calmer" foxes they somewhat lost the necessity for the wild attributes controlled by these adrenal gland hormones.
This is waaay too deep and really stretching  my pea brain and minimal education and I'm not smart enough to be able to apply it in any reasonable amount of time for it to be of any use to me other than maybe have a tiny bit of understanding as to how it works and came about.

the foxes you are talking about changed very quickly...the researchers thought it should take many generations before these drastic changes could occur...they were wrong, as many they have been in many other cases...nothing new about that...

one theory on what caused this is when they were selectiong the foxes to breed, they were looking for the traits that were people friendly and also for not being shy towards people...when selecting for these traits there were other traits that were tied to those traits such as the tricolor and droopy ears...

I also believe as I have posted before...folks say to pick pups for intelligence...many do not or cannot explain what that means...

Just like the foxes...when we pick for winding, drifting and ranging...we are looking for those traits...but when we are looking for those traits, we must realize that those traits are tied in directly to intelligence...so selecting for those traits as natural ability we are also indirectly selecting for natural intelligence with most not knowing that this is actually happening...this is a personal theory, but I would bet money on it to be right...

It was 6 generations "one generation per year" of foxes chosen strictly for tameness, and they would lick the hand of handlers and allow themselves to be petted and handled. In less than 10 yrs they exhibited flopped ears, coat color variations, and curled tails, also their "adrenal glands" became smaller each generation so it appears that the neural crest cells and hormone secretion from adrenal glands are a big part of genetic mutation.    I had looked this up after the previous post since I hadn't remembered the details.

The other study mentioned above even went so far as to call the neural crest cells  "shape shifter cells".   It all boils down to selective breeding for us and is much more complicated and time consuming for the multiple traits needed in our hunting dogs than when breeding for one single trait such as in the foxes tameness, or milk cows milk production or broiler chickens reaching  a terminal weight and so on.

It also stated that early on in the fox experiment it was only a small percentage of the foxes that exhibited the tameness and in the end of the 60 year experiment the majority of them did show the tameness.

Thanks for sharing…it’s been a while since I read those articles…another study on lizards proved that evolution does not always take as long as has been previously thought…

In our case…I remember there were many wild hogs with flop ears and round hams…those hogs seemed quick to stop and fight…those would get caught pretty quick…the Russian types tend to run before fighting…as a result they live to breed another day…at least that’s how I see it…

Pertaining to your last paragraph, intelligence has different meaning for different folks, I was once asked by my aunt who is a Labrador retriever fanatic, what I meant when I kept referring to intelligence, and in the same sentence she's trying to show me how smart and "intelligent" her adorable newspaper shredder was by showing me her tricks she could do that she had taught her while also trying to downplay my "hunting dogs", later that evening I already knew about a dumbfounding moment I had seen her lab do time and again, you could open her kennel while she was distracted by something else and she run right past the the wide open door about to go frantic bc she couldn't get out, you would have to leash her and pull her through the gate, every time all her life, but hey she could sit, stay, shake , and rollover, so I asked aunt may if her dear old Maggie was so smart then why in the he!! Was  she barking about to go into a fit bc she was being let out of her kennel, same as everyday, but couldn't for the life of her slow down and long enough to figure out where the gate was time and again after having to lead through it every time, over time I finally got her to understand that me definition of intelligence in my dogs in a short summary was that they were problem solvers, and figured everyday task around the house out quick and remembered them as little pups, I just started keeping the ones that could figure things out that I never intended to show or expose them to, several generations later and I'm now getting dogs off one particular branch of the family tree that are scary smart, to the point that some of the things that they do just has sitting there puzzled at how did they figure that out, that's also seeming to correlate to the woods as the ones who learn the ways and routes  of different game after only few runs, and are smart track running, off topic as I usually am but this time it ain't my, one of the guys above me started it, I swear....

Goose…I do the same with pups…I look for those that figure things out…looking for things the pups do without needing any training to do these things…also looking for natural winding nose…and those that find more hidden treats in the back yard…I then visualize my pups working in the woods even though my backyard is way way smaller…

Since we’re way off topic…

New Year’s Eve night I was concerned about my 9 week old pups, with all the noise with the fireworks that will be cracking the still of night and possibly traumatizing them…

I already know a few things about the  pups…the pup that hunts the best does not like out of the routine loud noises…at the first firework pops she bolted to the shed and crawled under and stayed a good while…the second pup, it was minutes later with quite a few fireworks popping before she joined her sister…a while later their brother joined them…
The 4th pup…the noise didn’t faze him…

The only one that concerns me is the first one even though she hunts the hardest…i will see at a future date if her being over sensitive to new and loud noises will be a problem…she’s not out any time soon because she is not shy…just over cautious…

Cautiousness or high awareness can go hand in hand, lets you know she's paying attention to the world around her, but on a bad note if the fear keeps up it may be early signs of mental instability and can't handle out of routine occurrences, only time will tell and she's in the right hands to have the problem fixed if there is one, one of those problem solvers I kept was my Lucy gyp, New Year's Eve my son and his cousins were setting some cannons off and rattling the neighbors Windows two miles down the road, she's was just as lively and bouncing around on her chain like it was nothing, never had the chance to see her reaction to that type of stimulus, she's was also one of the first ones to make me start watching hard how the pups handled themselves around the house, was barely 6 weeks old and I came inside one day and she's on my couch, thinking my son brought her in I put her back out, I took a nap and about 30 minutes later I'm being licked in the face by this little pup, nobody but me there to let her in, so I put her back out and within a few minutes she's right back inside, she learned herself how to get the dog door open on my back door and make herself at home, and had figured away to climb up on a footstool, get on my recliner, walk over my blanket bin and onto the couch, this was her first day ever up at the house, and within an hour she had done this while the rest were running around whining and sniffing everywhere, I kept her just bc of that, to some that may be something stupid to consider but it showed me she had enough brains and mental to figure things out on her own, heck some of my grown dogs that were just yard ornaments and alarms for petty neighbors never figured the dog door out unless it was left open....

I agree with you Goose, I have told folks forever those dogs that are escape artists are smarter than most and that is a plus in any working dog.

Goose…the last comment you made about the old dogs couldn’t figure out what the puppy could figure…those are some of the traits we see when a star is born…when a star is born and as 10 week old puppy can do things that 2 year old good dogs can’t do…

Your logic is right about that pup…

That would’ve made me keep her too goose. I have a one year old hear that has been turned out 24/7 with the grown dogs since he was 6-8 weeks old. Since the second day he was out with them he has been going to his own kennel at feeding time. When I go in the feed house to get the feed, he goes to his kennel and sits, waits, never says a word, and doesn’t stick his head in the bowl until I close his gate. I took him on his second hunt this morning. He was already figuring out when the hog was dead to get gone. The old dogs were baying already but I didn’t have to tell him anything. He went to them from 6-700 yards away on his own. Thinking problem solvers are impossible to beat when they have the drive to match it.


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Yes indeed, some of the dogs that I've bred and raised out this one particular branch are nearly impossible to keep in a kennel that isn't modeled after Alcatraz, heck the one male in particular that just stood out in intelligence figured out how to get up on his hind legs with the chain stretched tight and move and maneuver his body in motions that would make the end of the chain whip up quick and the ring would be over the stop I'm the ground, I was evicted and optimistic to see his only son doing the exact thing a while back.....

When I set out on this venture to try and develop a family of dogs to suit me and my standard I'll be the first to admit that the intelligence things was of no concern to me, over time and many litters and hide handled and held it has become probably the most important trait I look for out side of a dog with gaminess who wants to run down and eventually tussle with something that badder than  they are, but in the last 8 yrs I've had to help just complete to circle of life that was just a flat out dud albeit a pretty one