I have never produced a pup that wouldn't bay...especially at 6 months old...but that is a far cry from being a hog dog..

No reason a man can't sell a few pups...as long as he is proving the dogs he could be able to sell a few litters and no harm done (imho)...It is when you start breeding dogs that haven't been proven to make the money....A sign to me is when someone always has pups for sale using his different stud dogs....I mean how many people have multiple stud dogs that they all think are the same?  

pm sent.. I don' know where most of the pics were taken on that website, but the second pic is actually me in North Lousiana at a guy named Marty Capers place back in about 2004..  Yes, it is a 300 acre penned area...you caught me ..

I just want to say that it was not my intent to offend anyone with my posts today believe it or not...I just have different opinions than some people on the board.  It is hard enough to produce great dogs, and I just don't believe they can be mass produced with the same consistency..

I have been using victor for about 6 months and am pleased with it...espeically the price...hard to beat..

sounds good, how is he bred?  Will he stay on a hog 8-10 hours if he had to?  How does he handle?

Thank you Dan...Some people can't see it....I am not saying Randy is a bad guy, but $$ talks...I have talke to several known dog men who do the same thing....You can not mass produce proven dogs....It just can't be done in the numbers they have bred.  Bogger, I know you bought a female from him that produced Pistolero, and he did it because he could get good of money for her and could replace her in a second on his yard...That is a fact...  Have you been to his yard?  Be honest, how many dogs does he have in his yard?  How long would it take in man years to prove all those dogs?  It isn't like making gasoline, there are differences in the dogs...Do you really think that Randy invented the best way to breed dogs?  Hell, all he did was buy up a bunch of old timers work and breed them together and market them.  The genius is in his marketing, not in his genetics or his breeding skills.

Again, I just want to debate...I am not saying I know it all, just want to know it all  Tell me about your dogs...What do you like about them?  Is there anything you don't like about them?  I will tell you my dogs faults if you tell me yours

I guess where I am going here is that everyone is on a different plane when it comes to what they expect out of their dogs...I have no doubt that there are some people on here that I could go hunting with that would smoke you and my dogs....at one time I was very happy with my dogs, untill I saw better dogs and then realized that mine were lacking in some areas.  I have seen dogs that have the bottom to stay on hogs many hours....they produce more hogs than my dogs do...my dogs would probably suit most people on this board, but I want better dogs always...

Yes, that is my belief...So, does Randy feel that any of his dogs are fit to breed?  If so, then why wouldn't the dogs progeny be fit to breed.  Or is it that only Randy's can breed the two dogs and get aces.  If I breed A and B from his yard together, shouldn't I get aces too?  I really like the debate, and have no animosity to you either.  What will I see from your dogs that are different from the ones I have?  My point in this whole thread is that I have ben dogs and I have no name dogs...I keep the good ones and I have good ones that are not ben bred dogs...I personally have seen some jam up Ben bred dogs, but they are from older stock. Now I will be honest, I haven't seen everyones dogs..  When I look at the papers I have seen, I see that Randy bought Ben and then outcrossed him to several other females in the foundation program...Burkhart, Sims, Gay and others...then it looks like the progeny have been bred together..  I know for a fact that some of these dogs are better than the others...If they weren't, why does Randy have 3 or 4 of the older dogs bloodlines that he markets?  I have a couple of my dogs that are way more dog aggressive than I want.  I wish I knew where it came from so I could get rid of it.  I met someone in Louisiana who bought a dog from Randy 12 years ago and this dog havd no aggression problems at all, they line bred/inbred this dog with a jam up local female BMC and they have thrown many jam up dogs.  I bought one of their dogs and if he turns out like some of their others I will use him,  He will protect hmself, burt has no aggressin issues that I can see so far.

I am baseing my hunting dogs around her.  I need a set of jam up cow dogs and a set of jam hog dogs.  I figured who better to do it with than one of the best female BMC's in the country.

Bogger - Saw this on another page from you...You invited people on the website to come see your dogs hunt.  So do you have these dogs today, or is it your hope to breed them in the future...Cause it sounded like you were speaking from experience..

Stephen - Didn't mean to pull you into this, I have heard good things about you and your dogs...Let me ask you this, do you think that if you went to Randy's today and started over that you would have as good of dogs as you have now?  Honest question..

Randy doesn't have a dog on his yard with much more than 50% WB breeding, but I know 3 people that have dogs with over 60%....So if you want ben dogs why go to randy?  So Bogger, lets talk WB genetics and see whose dog has more Ben in them...and it says clearly on his website that Bounty Hunter never produced a cull, so what are all these culls that he has replaced?  How is that possible if there are no culls.  So, which is it, does he replace culls or is he Marketing that he doesn't have any.. What if I could give you the number of a guy who 5 years ago bought several dogs from him and culled everyone of them.  What if I told you that several were sons of Bounty Hunter....Would you still say I didn't know what I am talking about?  How about I give you his number and you can go talk to him.  Oh and WB was sold to Randy for $150.00 because he was a cull that was a straight catch dog.  Now this doesn't mean that everyone would cull him, but it isn't like you say that Randy paid a bunch of money for him either.  Lets talk facts....Where do you live, I want to come see your ben dogs?  Tell me how they hunt and tell me about their bottom....Tell me how many culls you have had and what your success rate is....Have you produced any dogs, or have you bought them all frrom Randy?  I don't want to buy from him because it says on his website that ben and bounty hunter never produced a cull.  That scares me enough to stay away.  Especially when I know for a fact that ben had 40 litters...Where are all those top dogs now?  We know none of them were culled right?

Obviously you haven't been reading what I have written.  I think the dogs have the potential to be great.  I don't have to talk to him to know how he is breeding the dogs.  You can't use every dog you have as a stud dog. That is common sense.  I haven't sold a pup in over a year, and have only sold 6 pups and two started dogs in my life.  I don't mass produce dogs, and don't want to breed anything until I find the dog that I think is suitable to be bred.  I have a problem with the philosophy of using any dang dog to breed just because it is marketed as a genetic wonder dog...The statement that you can use any dang gyp in the yard as a brood gyp is just stupid and it is why people don't have better dogs today.  Now do yourself a favor and go back and read what I have written.  I coulld care less about his guarantee, because I know that he has a yard full of dogs(I have friends I trust who have been to his yard many times) on chains and doesn't hunt them to know which dogs would be best for hog dogs.  Also, cow dogs that will bay thier heads off in a pasture at cows they can see with their eyes are not good enough to be bred for hog dogs. Oh and I could put down that I am Jesus on my website and that doesn't make it true. Hopefully you can see what I am trying to say...If I need to be more clear, pm me and I will call you and we can talk about it.  My attempt was to help, but obviously you tooK offense to something I said.  

I feel like the older the blood you got from randy the better.  Some of the stuff he started out with was line and inbred to the hilt.  I just believe that the dogs are getting watered down because of all the looser breeding (by not proving the dogs first before they are bred)..

no, all my dogs from Yellow Jacket (Ben' son) go back to randy bred dogs, sims dogs, and Red burkhart's dogs..I called and asked about the Burkhart dogs a few years back (Red is dead now, but did talk to someone who had been close to Red and had some of the dogs.  He said that Red was real secretive about the dogs and his bloodline.  Anyway, never could find anything out about Sims..  If you are interested, I know Gay is still around, don't know him but can put you in contact with people who do know him..

What is the saying, "It is better to Keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

I think someone nailed it early in the post...most hog hunters don't want to pay the money it would take to get a ben dog.  Most of the people who have them are probably cow dog people..I would also suspect that lots of dogs out there have a little ben in them and most don't know it.  I want to know all the history on any of my dogs, but find most hog hunters (from my dealings) just want a dog that will hunt and don't want to waste space in their head to have to remember the where and the how

I notice on some of my papers and talking to other people who have ben dogs that the name Sims comes up on some of our better dogs.  Does anyone out there know anything about the Sims line of dogs that were added to the Foundation?  Do this line still exist?

Thans for sharing..

Redriverslim -  You sir hit the nail right on the head....Dogs are dogs, it is the man behind them that makes them better or worse with how he manages their progeny.